Question for the people with knowledge

Ju5

I have looked at the skeptic annotated qur'an and found most contradictions debatable/about bad translations/interpretations/blatantly false, but this, i can't refute. Anyone with explanations ?
Don't answer if don't know please, i don't want mental gymnasts and people who follow rumors and speak of what they do not know to pollute the topic. Just plain logic and knowledge in pursuit of truth, and no hate.

Heaven then earth
7927 Are you a more powerful creation than the heaven which He built?
7928 He raised its height, and perfected it.
7929 And He covered its night and brought out its morning.
7930 And the land after that He spread out.
7931 He brought forth from it its water and pasture.
7932 And the mountains He fixed firmly.

Earth then heaven
419 Say "You are rejecting the One who has created the earth in two days, and you set up equals with Him. That is the Lord of the worlds."
4110 And He placed in it stabilizers from above it, and He blessed it and established its provisions in proportion in four days, to satisfy those who ask.
4111 Then He settled to the heaven, while it was still smoke, and He said to it, and to the earth "Come willingly or unwillingly." They said "We come willingly."
4112 Thus, He then made them into seven heavens in two days, and He inspired to every heaven its affair. And We adorned the lowest heaven with lamps, and for protection. Such is the design of the Noble, the Knowledgeable.

Second,
people here say that Injil is indeed an arabic word and not greek words(good news), and that the Injil is not the gospel, and that Isa is not Jesus, but i found a post that make this position very hard to defend, which i am quoting here (by "youssef4342&quot

my current belief, is that Isa is Jesus or Yeshua...

For the name, sometimes names are changed slightly from one language to another. Consider the Arabic Elias... This would be similar to the NT form of Elias... However the correct version in Hebrew I'd Eliyahu.... Yet both are the same people in the Hebrew bible, the NT, and the Quran... He was against those who worshiped Baal, an Idol. With Jesus it is similar. His name is close to Joshua in Hebrew or Yahushua, in the Christian Arabic form Yasoo3.
for the Marry, she was not the literal sister of Aaron the brother Moses. The Quran cites that Isa was sent after the messengers have been sent... Consider the wife of ZakariYAH (I think it was she)... She was called a daughter of Aaron... Does that make her the literal daughter of Aaron.
consider that both Jesus and ISA are believed to have been the messiahs sent to the children of Israel, and that their narrative of ZakariYAH and his son yahya/John the Baptist is also similar, and that the Quran states that John was confirming a word from God, and that Jesus was also a word from God (kalimat Minho).... And the NT of John the babtist confirming the upcoming of Jesus as a role baptizing with the HOLY spirit....Which in both the Quran and the NT are cited to have aided Jesus/ISA in their Role. moreover, both scriptures cite of new laws given by Jesus/Isa of making lawful what was not and also the mention of the GOSPEL/Injil as a scripture...
consider the striking similarity of the description of those who followed ISA in the Quran as being merciful/compassionate, close to the believers in friendship, and that they don't become/fall to arrogance... Compare that with Jesus's teachings of loving thy neighbor, forgive that you may be forgiven, and whoever exalts himself will be debased.
Consider Jesus and Isa's Miracles raising the dead, feeding thousands (sura 5 & feasts), resurrecting the dead, healing the blind, and leprous etc.
Consider the end of Jesus & Isa both are believed/supposed to the point of view of the witnesses to have been killed and crucified.
consider the historical perspective of some nazareens/Christians who attributed Jesus/Isa the messiah as the son of the Almighty, and brought up the trinity doctrine in the Quran. Also of how some have taken/worshiped him and his mother as god figures besides the Almighty true God.

Consider that Both Jews and nazareens/Christians are cited to us in the Quran as reading the same scripture, and yet criticizing each other for not having a basis. Also of how Isa's followers are on top of the Jews (in dominance/majority etc). Also of how the followers of ISA are broken up into sects where animosity/hatred has been wedged between them.

Consider the narrative perspective of the Quran, the Hebrew bible, and the NT, of the coming of Jesus/Isa... In the Quran Isa is cited to have come after the messengers... The Gospels cite the same, and no where in the Hebrew bible do we hear of a Jesus/Isa/messiah figure who was present that did miracles and brought new laws and was allegedly to have been crucified. Moreover, the Quran is cited to have been revealed after the coming of Jesus in sura 2, (read the narrative of the children of israel from 240 and on until you get to Isa, then the revealing of the Quran)...
consider that Jesus/Isa in both the NT and the Quran spake of an upcoming helper/parcelete and in the Quran as a messenger Called Ahmed.... Again read the narrative of the children of Israel from 240 and on till you get to the mention of Jesus and directly after it cites of how a book came/was revealed (ie the Quran)...the chronology fits closely with Jesus and Isa

Otherwise, bring an 1) alternative messiah Figure, who 2) was sent to the children of Israel and 3) did miracles and 4) was assumed to have been crucified by the witnesses and 5) was attributed by some of his later followers as the son of the Almighty and 6) was attributed as a figure in the trinity doctrine, and 7) his true followers are compassionate/merciful, and are close to the believers, and they are broken up into sects which might have animosity/hatred between them, and 9) are on top of the Jews (in dominance) and 10) still read the Hebrew scriptures (translated or not), and 11) say that the Jews are on no bases and Bice versa and 12) taken/worship isa and his mother as god figures besides the Almighty true God.....

It would be quite farfetched to say that Isa is not Jesus and that the gospel is not the injil (what would be that injil that is mentioned several times? Why would the gospels would not be mentioned as they are the scriptures of christians ? Wikipedia

The Arabic word Injil (&#1604 as found in Islamic texts, and now used also by Muslim non-Arabs and Arab non-Muslims, is derived from the Syriac Aramaic word awongaleeyoon (&#1826 found in the Peshitta (Syriac translation of the Bible), which in turn derives from the Greek word euangelion (&#957 of the originally Greek language New Testament, where it means "good news" (from Greek " "; Old English "gdspel"

Please note also that Mary in the gospel is not called Miriam, but Mariam (the aramaic form of Miriam). She is also called Mariam in the Qur'an.

Now, if Jesus is Isa -it is quite striking than his mother Mariam has a father called Imran and a brother called Harun (Aaron), while the Miriam of the Torah is also sister to Aaron and daughter to Amram. This may be a confusion between Miriam from the Torah and Mariam from the gospels.

If anyone has the answer please share

huruf

Quote from

"A crucifixion, in fact many crucifixions have been recorded in history, but whose crucifixions, not that of 3isa ibnu Maryam.

3isa Ibnu Maryam lived in peace and consideration, he was never persecuted nor brought in front of a judge or court.

Compare
33.69. O YOU who have attained to faith! Be not like those who gave offence to Moses, and God showed him to be innocent of whatever they alleged for of great honour was he in the sight of God(wajeeh). (69)

3.45. Lo! The angels said "O Mary! Behold, God sends thee the glad tiding, through a word from Him, who shall become known as the Massih 3isa, son of Mary, of great honour in this world and in the life to come(wajeeh), and of those who are drawn near unto God. (45)

Of Moses God says that he was in great honour in the sight of God, while people offended him and God showed that he was innocent of what he was charged.

Of 3isa, the angels say that he will be in great honour in this life and in the next. This contradicts that he should have undergone the same trials as Musa and also that he should be publicly tortured and judged and offended.

Jesus of the Gospels, if he existed as such Jesus of the Gospels is not 3isa Ibnu Maryam held in honour in this life and in the next.

People may find one thousand explanations for anything. But just read the Qur'an and only the Qur'an when you are at it. What is the picture of 3isa that comes to you?

Of course a different things is his mother, Maryam, who was accosted with impertinent suspicions as to the origin of her son. Maryam was offended, but no 3isa. Read carefully every passage.

23.50.
And We made the son of Mary and his mother a sign, and provided for both an abode in a lofty place of lasting restfulness and unsullied springs. (50)

Sounds like 3isa underwent a Calvary?

Christianity has a lot of appeal and I think that Muslims along history succumbed to that appeal and tried in some way to import it into Islam and thus harmed Islam turning it into a pretender of Christianity.

Christianity has its merits, but it is not islam, and islam has its merits bt it is not christianity. Mixing both we are diluting and corrupting, in this case, islam which is the one pretending.

Let us keep things straight. There was a book I read once by a catholic priest which said that Christianity is a mysteric religion, whereas islam is a natural religion. It seemed to me a very appropriate characterisation, and that is why any talk about historicity of Jesus and everything else as far as true religion is concerned is completely beside the point. The point of Christianity is not that. The point of Christinity is the continual Crucifixion of people, humanity everywhere every time. Rohingyas are being crucified, yemenies are being crucified. People in every city bein humilliated and made like nothing, being crucified. All those will resurrect. God lives and all those crucified will resurrect through God's boundless compassion. That is the point of Christianity, not whether on such and such a year so and so was God and he is the one, and only one redeemer and because of Him we are saved and so on. That is the mysteric part which is meant to move the soul through deep emotion.

Islam is natural, clear, no climax, no appeal to excessive emotions.

Of course Christianity has also been adulterated, in fact it is very easily adulterable, but sincere Christians know what they talk about and there are many who are really saints. The narration of the crucifixion an ressurrection is an appeal to be moved to conscience.

We win nothing by mixing stories, we loose may be both in the process. Let good, sincere people in every side do their best and we all will be guided. History is a great learning, but let us not mix things that could or could not have been with deep human and spiritual truths.

The one crucified, if there was one, in the Qur'an narration of 3isa, was Maryam, not 3isa.

3Isa worldwise, had it easy, which may mean in fact that he had it harder because of what the Qur'an itself says, when people are in dire straights they turn to God, when things go well they forget Him.

May God bless all messengers and bless us with understanding and passion for goodness as they all showed us with their example.

Salaam "

The post by Youssef4342, seems to me pure conjecture and speculation and even many of the things on which he bases his conjectures are unfounded. Not much to go on.

Salaam

Ju5

@huruf The point is that according to the qur'an

people say that Isa has been killed/crucified Allah refutes
people say that Isa is the son of Allah Allah refutes
people who believed in Isa said about God "three" Allah refutes
people took Isa and his mother as deities (catholics say "holy mary, mother of god) Allah refutes

The question is do you know anyone else than Jesus that has been believed to be

crucified
part of a divine trinity
the son of God (also his mother is deified by catholics as she is thought to be the mother of God) ?

Once again, it is very much farfetchd to dare say that Isa from the quran is not Jesus from the gospel; unless you know anyone other than Jesus that, during Muhammad s time, was believed by some people to be the son of the God of israel, part of a trinity, born of a virgin, who died crucified.
In which case, i am eager to learn from you who that man can be.

tlihawa

Heaven then earth
7927 Are you a more powerful creation than the heaven which He built?
7928 He raised its height, and perfected it.
7929 And He covered its night and brought out its morning.
7930 And the land after that He spread out.
7931 He brought forth from it its water and pasture.
7932 And the mountains He fixed firmly.

Earth then heaven
419 Say "You are rejecting the One who has created the earth in two days, and you set up equals with Him. That is the Lord of the worlds."
4110 And He placed in it stabilizers from above it, and He blessed it and established its provisions in proportion in four days, to satisfy those who ask.
4111 Then He settled to the heaven, while it was still smoke, and He said to it, and to the earth "Come willingly or unwillingly." They said "We come willingly."
4112 Thus, He then made them into seven heavens in two days, and He inspired to every heaven its affair. And We adorned the lowest heaven with lamps, and for protection. Such is the design of the Noble, the Knowledgeable.

Salaam Ju5,
my simple answer is heaven and earth were one piece at the very beginning (2130). To me, all the verses you quote above is kind of affirmation of the previous scriptures, in this case, Book of Genesis (Torah).

33 He sent down to you the Book with the truth, affirming what is between his hands; and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel.

Book Of Genesis told us in detail about the creation of the universe, which one created first and so on, and Al Quran confirming it.

Genesis 1
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Typically, a confirmation is less detail than what its confirmed. It just kind of "snapshot" or reference, and it's not necessarily has the same sequence. Especially if you familiar with the way of Quran presenting the information, if you know what I mean.

It's just like when you confirm something, you just simply said "yes, that's true,..it has something like this bla..bla.." and then you add a piece of supporting information. And you don't have to provide the whole story over again.

So, in this case, how can we prove that Quran is confirming the Torah story? And not the other story such as big bang theory?

lets see what Quran tells us,

754 Your Lord is God who has created the heavens and the earth in six days, then He settled upon the Throne.

So it took six days to create the heaven and earth, but if you look at the verses you quoted above, it tells a little bit different.

in 419 God created the earth in two days, in 4110, establish its provision in four days, and created the heaven in two days.. So at first glance, with this 2-4-2 days formation, it looks like contradict with the 754 which is only 6 days.

It will be very difficult to explain this phenomenon, if let say, those verses and all related verses about the creation of the universe were used to support the big bang theory.

Now let me summarize information from Torah to make it clear

Day 1
God created the heaven and the earth, light and water (heavens and the earth were one piece, see 2130)

Day 2
God created the firmament (heaven/sky/water partition) to separate the heaven and the earth.

Day 3
Dry Land and plants (trees), And river

Day 4
Sun, Moon and stars, calendar, and animal

Day 5
Sea monster and flying creatures, fruits

Day 6
Adam and land animals

As you can see, Al Quran tells us the same thing in a different way.

earth created in two days (419) = Day 1 + Day 2
establish earth provision in four days (animal, plants, fruit, sunlight, etc) = Day 3 + Day 4 + Day 5 +Day 6
heaven (sky/firmament) and sky objects created in two days = Day 2 + Day 4 (Sun moon and stars)

So with this, I think there is no chance that Al Quran is supporting another theory such as big bang theory. This 2-4-2 formation is kind of locking mechanism between Al Quran and Torah.

https//cdn-assets.answersingenesis.org/img/articles/2010/04/bible-big-bang-compared.jpg

Hope it helps.

Salaam

huruf

@huruf The point is that according to the qur'an

people say that Isa has been killed/crucified Allah refutes
people say that Isa is the son of Allah Allah refutes
people who believed in Isa said about God "three" Allah refutes
people took Isa and his mother as deities (catholics say "holy mary, mother of god) Allah refutes

The question is do you know anyone else than Jesus that has been believed to be

crucified
part of a divine trinity
the son of God (also his mother is deified by catholics as she is thought to be the mother of God) ?

Once again, it is very much farfetchd to dare say that Isa from the quran is not Jesus from the gospel; unless you know anyone other than Jesus that, during Muhammad s time, was believed by some people to be the son of the God of israel, part of a trinity, born of a virgin, who died crucified.
In which case, i am eager to learn from you who that man can be.

I don't care whst people hve believed, if what people have believed disagrees with the Que'an, what do I care whether finve million say it or even 200 hundered millions, they were not there. f you choose to believe people, well do, fine with me. But why should we pick any one because whe do not find anything else or where is the need that there should be such a thing by hook or crook. The Qur'an obkviously o not depict a person that fits what you need. Too bad. May be there wasn't.

Salaam

Noon_waalqalami

4111 Then ...

... and that the Injil is not the gospel ...

peace, use 4111 thumma/furthermore ...

likewise not about giving him future hearsay stories which there are 200+ according to someone.
http//www.earlychristianwritings.com/

5727 thumma/furthermore sent we of on footsteps theirs in messengers ours and sent we of with jesus son maryam and gave him the injeel ...

https//s10.postimg.org/4qoyay42h/Ahlwardt_305_ch57v25-ch58v2.jpg

Ju5

@huruf

I don't care whst people hve believed, if what people have believed disagrees with the Que'an, what do I care whether finve million say it or even 200 hundered millions, they were not there. f you choose to believe people, well do, fine with me. But why should we pick any one because whe do not find anything else or where is the need that there should be such a thing by hook or crook. The Qur'an obkviously o not depict a person that fits what you need. Too bad. May be there wasn't.

Salaam

You seem to misunderstand. I am not saying that Jesus is the son of God. I am saying that people said that he was. And Allah, in the Qur'an, tells them that they are wrong, and that "Isa" is merely a messenger. Therefore Isa is indeed Jesus (Yeshua), Maryam is Mary, and the Injil is the "euang?lion"/"gospel".

huruf

@huruf
You seem to misunderstand. I am not saying that Jesus is the son of God. I am saying that people said that he was. And Allah, in the Qur'an, tells them that they are wrong, and that "Isa" is merely a messenger. Therefore Isa is indeed Jesus (Yeshua), Maryam is Mary, and the Injil is the "euang?lion"/"gospel".

There is no therefore whatsoever. So, if somebody is not God or the son of God that means that he is 3isa Ibnu Maryam? And Maryam is a woman who appears obscurely in the gospels and not living with her son , whereas the Qur'an says she lived with her son, and injeel is injil, not the gospels by John Luke Matthew an Marc. Those pieces narrate things that the Qur'an itself rejects. Those are not the injeel, although those who wrote them may have helped themselves to the injeel or to some retelling of the injeel.

On the other hand what is the injil? Is it really a book or several books?

Injeel is indeed a thoroughly Arabic word, root n-j-l, and the word-form ir1r2iir3, which is not of the most common, but perfectly established.

verb najala to beget, sire, father

interesting that it should have been given to 3isa, the one whose mother was slandered as to his father.

Salaam

Ju5

@huruf

4157 And their saying "We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, messenger of God!" And they had not killed him, nor crucified him, but it appeared to them as if they had. And those who dispute are in doubt regarding him, they have no knowledge except to follow conjecture; they did not kill him for a certainty.

Allah talks about people who think they have killed/crucified the Messiah.

4171 O people of the Book, do not overstep in your system, nor say about God except the truth. Jesus, son of Mary, was no more than a messenger of God and His word, which He cast to Mary, and a Spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers, and do not say "Three." Cease, for it is better for you. God is only One god, be He glorified that He should have a son! To Him is all that is in the heavens and the earth; and God is enough as a Caretaker.

Allah talks to the people of the book and tells them that Isa is no more than a messenger, and to not say "three". Which people of the book Allah talks about (that deify Isa and believe in trinity?) ? Is Allah talking to an unknown sect that no one knows about ?Actually there is a very well known sect that deify someone, that think there is a trinity, that say "mother of god", that thinks that "god" is a messiah born of virgin called Mary, and that died on a cross.
But according to you Huruf, Allah doesnt speak to those people, he speaks to an unknown sect. Note that the Qur'an was revealed centuries after Christianity kickstarted.
I honestly think you are being biased in order to fit reality into your desire.

huruf

I guess you think that your reasoning is so brilliant that without doubt you are right.

Your reasoning may be brilliant but does not check with the Qur'an.

The person described in the Qur'an as 3isa ibnu Maryam, does not correspond to a person who was attempted to be tried and crucified.

In fact I do not know what you are saying. Are you saying that nobody was crucified, nor there was an attempt to crucify a person called Jesus? is that what you are saying? That that Jesus that you say is the same as 3isa and is spoken of in the Gospels lived happily and was not perscuted, and did not have a carpenter as a father and was not a nephew of Harun? Is that what you are saying?

Then say it.

But if you are not saying that then, what are you saying, that the Qur'an is wrong and the gospels right. That God does not know what really happenned and it is those who wrote the gospels the ones that really know what they are talking about?

Salaam

The_Sardar

There is no therefore whatsoever. So, if somebody is not God or the son of God that means that he is 3isa Ibnu Maryam? And Maryam is a woman who appears obscurely in the gospels and not living with her son , whereas the Qur'an says she lived with her son, and injeel is injil, not the gospels by John Luke Matthew an Marc. Those pieces narrate things that the Qur'an itself rejects. Those are not the injeel, although those who wrote them may have helped themselves to the injeel or to some retelling of the injeel.

On the other hand what is the injil? Is it really a book or several books?

Injeel is indeed a thoroughly Arabic word, root n-j-l, and the word-form ir1r2iir3, which is not of the most common, but perfectly established.

verb najala to beget, sire, father

interesting that it should have been given to 3isa, the one whose mother was slandered as to his father.

Salaam

Nuun-Jiim-Lam (--&#1604 = evangel, to become verdant, disclose/manifest, have wide/large eyes.
anjala to pasture (cattle) on herbage.
minjal luxuriant (robes), clever camel-driver.
Has been implied to mean "good news" due to 616. Much of the message of Jesus is implied to have been forgotten by his people, see 514.
wide wound, reaping hook, toothed/serrated/plain edge.

injil n.com. 33, 348, 365, 546, 547, 566, 568, 5110, 7157, 9111, 4829, 5727

Lane's Lexicon, Volume 8, pages 282 ## http//ejtaal.net/aa/#q=njl

Ju5

@huruf please don't try to guess what i think because you fail to

you say that Isa was not crucified, but this is the point ! Allah tells to the people of the book that Isa was not crucified, that he was only a messenger, that they should not say "three", this is from the Qur'an itself.
The question is not who was or was not Isa, what did he do or didnt do, nor if the gospels are right or not, the question is who was deified in a trinity with his mother by the people of the book? Who was thought to be crucified by the people of the book ? The answer is Jesus. Which also had a mother named Maryam, and also had no father.

If you say that the Qur'an doesn't speak about Jesus, then you say that the people of the book believed in a man (part of a trinity, whose mother was deified with him, dead on a cross, who did miracles among israelites and was the messiah according to the Qur'an) who was not Jesus. Which is utterly false according to the whole world. Unless you show me otherwise?

huruf

Don't be so playful. You know what I am saying is not what you say I am saying. Enough of that.

You should have named this thread "riddles". I might have enjoyed when I was a child. Now I think you will have to do without me to play.

Salaam

Ju5

what do you mean then? that isa is jesus but that the gospels are not the same as injil?

because the christians were supposed to have it, in the qur'an

7157 Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel, who enjoins upon them what is right and forbids them what is wrong and makes lawful for them the good things and prohibits for them the evil and relieves them of their burden and the shackles which were upon them. So they who have believed in him, honored him, supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him - it is those who will be the successful.

it was between the 6th and 7th century where did it go? do we still have it?

huruf

Nuun-Jiim-Lam (--&#1604 = evangel, to become verdant, disclose/manifest, have wide/large eyes.
anjala to pasture (cattle) on herbage.
minjal luxuriant (robes), clever camel-driver.
Has been implied to mean "good news" due to 616. Much of the message of Jesus is implied to have been forgotten by his people, see 514.
wide wound, reaping hook, toothed/serrated/plain edge.

injil n.com. 33, 348, 365, 546, 547, 566, 568, 5110, 7157, 9111, 4829, 5727

Lane's Lexicon, Volume 8, pages 282 ## http//ejtaal.net/aa/#q=njl

Yes there are all those meanings derived from n-j-l, however the verb najala, according to dictionnaries is as I wrote. Right now I have only one dicctionnary with me which says that. But back home I remember chcking and it is in other dictionnaries I checked.

Salaam

Ju5

@tlihawa

verse 41 the earth is created with its proportions and stabilizers while the heaven is still smoke, then Allah turns the smoke into seven heavens, with the lamps into the first heaven

in verse 79, Allah raises the height of the heaven and makes it perfect, and after that he spreads the earth and fixes firmly the mountains

Ju5

why the debate about the roots of the word ? is not used to say to beget or to father ? if it meant to beget or to father, to pasture, have large eyes.... then people whould use to say this, but fact is people use to name the bible / gospel .

Ju5

also, means Son. This may be a hint

Noon_waalqalami

the gospels are not the same as injil?

the gospels hearsay according to "someone" which there are 200+ are hundred years into future, right?

348 and teacheth him the book and the wisdom and the taurat and the injeel

546 and gave we him the injeel

verse 41 ... then ...

again, use 4111 thumma/furthermore

The_Sardar

Yes there are all those meanings derived from n-j-l, however the verb najala, according to dictionnaries is as I wrote. Right now I have only one dicctionnary with me which says that. But back home I remember chcking and it is in other dictionnaries I checked.

Salaam

Bold What dictionary? Red Then we can wait when you are back home checking the other dictionaries.