Question for the people with knowledge
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how do you tear apart things that don't exist? they have to exist in the first place (be created).
HERE is the tafsir of Al-Tabari who lived in the 9/10 th centuries
He doesn't sound like a satanist conspiring to destroy islam. In fact he's trying to make sense out of the qur'an just like people on free-minds forums, except he doesn't try dishonestly to make the verses fit the science, because modern science doesn't exist yet. We can clearly see that thumma in those verses is interpreted as then without question by scholars.
https//archive.org/stream/TheCommentaryOnTheQuranVol.1ByAlTabari/The%20commentary%20on%20the%20Quran%2C%20vol.%201%2C%20by%20al-tabari#page/n121/mode/2up/search/earthBut you probably know arabic better than them right?
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huruf, did you find another meaning for Injil yet?
i understand that arabs understood thumma as then in those verses without even questioning the meaning, so that it was evident to them, regardless of a conspiracy to push a sunnite agenda
but the 2018 internet experts know betterthe qur'an says that it is written in a clear arabic
if it was not clear that the meaning was "then", then the qur'an is not clear. If it is clear that it means then, why are people translating otherwise for 1400 years? Are all these people mentally deficient?
finally Allah argue if the qur'an wasn't in arabic we wouldn't understand and reject it
but fact is i'm not arabic, most people arguing on free-minds are not, why should we fight against all odds to make sense out of a vague book full of allegories, about words that don't mean what they mean(would allah be a poet?).
Surely if it was in a clear arabic and divine revelation Allah wouldn't use words that can be understood as "hit your wife" or "cut the hand of thieves"
If it isn't what he meant he should choose the words more carefully next time because some people lost their hands due to allah's "clear verses", see
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=qTE#(5383)
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=ydy#(5384)
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=5&verse=38#(5381)there is two possibilities
-the qur'an is clear but wrong
-the qur'an is "true" but unclear, which is contradictory, yet you make up explanations for violent and absurb verses by twisting words and ideas because you want to believe in this due to death, heaven and hell, all the while pretending to be knowledgeable about classical arabic, truth is most of you are not even native arab speakers which think they know better than hundreds of generations of native speakers who are direct descendants of arabs from 6th century. How great is such arrogance. Allah cursed the arabs, but chose you to believe in his classical arabic book because you are so special. He's guiding you, and each time there is a problem with the qur'an, Allah gives you an explanation.
If one doesn't see what he doesn't want to see, the opposite is true.
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i understand that arabic understood thumma as then ...
instead of trying to understand parrots parroting mindless parrots read for yourself!
again, translate thumma consistently as furthermore, moreover, likewise, etc...
again, have you looked at this verse and do know why "THEN" is senseless?
6154 thumma/furthermore ...
moreover (thumma), besides one translator that got it right others were careless.
http//corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=6&verse=154
it's the same with other topics e.g. kalala pertaining to inheritance, they're clueless!
peace!
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Noon waalqalami why do you cling to furthermore and this verse you keep quoting?
-1 look at other occurences of thumma in the qur'an and what they mean. look at the context of thumma in the verses about creation. teachers teach that thumma links two things together with a separation between them. or mean again if you repeat something. But most of the time its a conjunction used to indicate events and things that happen consequently to these events.
2-You say Thumma doesn't necessarily means then, but likewise furthermore..and quote a surah that begins with Thumma. Because you say that begginning a chapter with Then does'nt make sense. But starting a chapter with furthermore/likewise/moreover doesn't make sense either.
3-You don't know classical arabic. Arabs that lived after muhammad did. The basis of quranism is ignorance of arabic and world class gymnastic.
Bonus question for Noon waalqalami did you click the three corpus.quran com links i posted before? Do we have to cut hands of thieves or not? Don't you think it takes massive self brainwashing to believe we don't?
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huruf, did you find another meaning for Injil yet?
i understand that arabs understood thumma as then in those verses without even questioning the meaning, so that it was evident to them, regardless of a conspiracy to push a sunnite agenda
but the 2018 internet experts know betterthe qur'an says that it is written in a clear arabic
if it was not clear that the meaning was "then", then the qur'an is not clear. If it is clear that it means then, why are people translating otherwise for 1400 years? Are all these people mentally deficient?
finally Allah argue if the qur'an wasn't in arabic we wouldn't understand and reject it
but fact is i'm not arabic, most people arguing on free-minds are not, why should we fight against all odds to make sense out of a vague book full of allegories, about words that don't mean what they mean(would allah be a poet?).
Surely if it was in a clear arabic and divine revelation Allah wouldn't use words that can be understood as "hit your wife" or "cut the hand of thieves"
If it isn't what he meant he should choose the words more carefully next time because some people lost their hands due to allah's "clear verses", see
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=qTE#(5383)
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=ydy#(5384)
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=5&verse=38#(5381)there is two possibilities
-the qur'an is clear but wrong
-the qur'an is "true" but unclear, which is contradictory, yet you make up explanations for violent and absurb verses by twisting words and ideas because you want to believe in this due to death, heaven and hell, all the while pretending to be knowledgeable about classical arabic, truth is most of you are not even native arab speakers which think they know better than hundreds of generations of native speakers who are direct descendants of arabs from 6th century. How great is such arrogance. Allah cursed the arabs, but chose you to believe in his classical arabic book because you are so special. He's guiding you, and each time there is a problem with the qur'an, Allah gives you an explanation.
If one doesn't see what he doesn't want to see, the opposite is true.
huruf, did you find another meaning for Injil yet?
i understand that arabs understood thumma as then in those verses without even questioning the meaning, so that it was evident to them, regardless of a conspiracy to push a sunnite agenda
but the 2018 internet experts know betterthe qur'an says that it is written in a clear arabic
if it was not clear that the meaning was "then", then the qur'an is not clear. If it is clear that it means then, why are people translating otherwise for 1400 years? Are all these people mentally deficient?
finally Allah argue if the qur'an wasn't in arabic we wouldn't understand and reject it
but fact is i'm not arabic, most people arguing on free-minds are not, why should we fight against all odds to make sense out of a vague book full of allegories, about words that don't mean what they mean(would allah be a poet?).
Surely if it was in a clear arabic and divine revelation Allah wouldn't use words that can be understood as "hit your wife" or "cut the hand of thieves"
If it isn't what he meant he should choose the words more carefully next time because some people lost their hands due to allah's "clear verses", see
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=qTE#(5383)
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=ydy#(5384)
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=5&verse=38#(5381)there is two possibilities
-the qur'an is clear but wrong
-the qur'an is "true" but unclear, which is contradictory, yet you make up explanations for violent and absurb verses by twisting words and ideas because you want to believe in this due to death, heaven and hell, all the while pretending to be knowledgeable about classical arabic, truth is most of you are not even native arab speakers which think they know better than hundreds of generations of native speakers who are direct descendants of arabs from 6th century. How great is such arrogance. Allah cursed the arabs, but chose you to believe in his classical arabic book because you are so special. He's guiding you, and each time there is a problem with the qur'an, Allah gives you an explanation.
If one doesn't see what he doesn't want to see, the opposite is true.
Whom are you cheating? You keep going off tangents and repeating ad nauseam your own conundrums that are already done over with long ago.
Do you want to be the one to be right? There, take it all forever.
Congratulations.Salaam
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They have not be solved because they can't be. The thousands of messages on this forum is the proof that the qur'an is not really clear. If the qur'an was clear you would obey Allah without question without doubting.
When Allah tell people to cut off hands off thieves, you start twisting the words and add complexity from nowhere like satans. It doesn't say cutt off hand hands except if they repent. It would have been useless, all thieves would say "i repent!". It just says that Allah will forgive them if they repent. Not that we shouldn't cut heir hands. The truth is that you don't obey to the qur'an, and that's a good thing. You twist the words in order to make it look nice. Can't change the meaning of the word? "It's a metaphor!". Magical answer. "And i have the proof here if you look at this verse that has nothing to do with the first one, we can clearly see that" (from an article linked by wakas on thieves and punishment http//www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/cut-off-hands-theft.htm ) "to physically cut off the hand or hands of the thief is not the only possible understanding and taking into account the law of equivalence would perhaps only be reserved for significant theft which led to harming others," . This is NOT the qur'an. It is YOUR FABRICATION (quranists). Your WISH. Dare you lie against Allah ? I am ok to use reason to do reasonable things. I am not ok to claim that an unreasonable book is reasonable if we change the things we don't like. Because sooner or later someone will not twist the words. He will obey like a true "believer". Hence killing of polytheists, cutting off hands. If you want to keep the good things in the qur'an do so. But don't claim it is a pink book, with no contradictions or violence. You are words twisters, and if satan does exist, you'd be good soldiers for him. -
I am waiting still huruf, what is the injil if not a book? replace the word book by something else, let s see if it makes sense.
tip because i don't think the qur'an is genuine, i am the worst of the living creatures before God.
855 Indeed, the worst of living creatures in the sight of Allah are those who have disbelieved, and they will not believe
So don't consider me higher than a horsefly. Or would you not trust Allah's judgement?
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Noon waalqalami why do you cling to furthermore and this verse you keep quoting?
-1 look at other occurences of thumma in the qur'an and what they mean.
Yes looked at all occurrences and they all mean furthermore/moreover/likewise, etc...
But starting a chapter with furthermore/likewise/moreover doesn't make sense either.
Moreover (thumma), never said chapter rather a new sentence used to introduce a new consideration same topic.
3-You don't know classical arabic. Arabs that lived after muhammad did. The basis of quranism is ignorance of arabic and world class gymnastic.
In addition (thumma), two groups that agree on contradictory meanings -- clueless missionaries and hearsay followers.
Likewise (thumma), look into their poetry not mindless chatter written 200 years afterwards by mostly Persians who were clueless started to parrot stupidity hence why most are clueless today.
Bonus question for Noon waalqalami did you click the three corpus.quran com links i posted before? Do we have to cut hands of thieves or not? Don't you think it takes massive self brainwashing to believe we don't?
Furthermore (thumma), what does that have to do with this topic?
538-39 and the thief (male) and the thief (female) so severs ye of aydiyahuma/hands (actions) theirs dual recompense in what earn dual shackle of from the god and the god mighty wise so whom turned from after wrong his (i.e. said person) and reconciles so indeed the god turns in forgiveness on him indeed the god forgiver merciful
1273-75 said they of by the god verily know you not came we of to we corrupt in the land and not be we thieves being said they of so what jazauhu/recompense its if be you liars said they of recompense its whom found in bag his so he recompense its like such we recompense the wrongdoers
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So don't consider me higher than a horsefly.
no surprise, well at least you finally came out and exposed yourself.
"do not hide like a fly under the tail of a horse" -- Albanian proverb
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I am waiting still huruf, what is the injil if not a book? replace the word book by something else, let s see if it makes sense.
tip because i don't think the qur'an is genuine, i am the worst of the living creatures before God.
855 Indeed, the worst of living creatures in the sight of Allah are those who have disbelieved, and they will not believe
So don't consider me higher than a horsefly. Or would you not trust Allah's judgement?
I answered that. If you do not want that answered except in aquiescence to yuor whims, don't bother to insist. People are not your toys for you to play around with your shows of "cleverness". Obiously in the least you are interested is in real answers.
Salaam
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Noon waalqalami Why do you quote the story of joseph ? What does this has to do with the command of Allah to cut the hands of thieves? nothing
thuma means a LOT order in the qur'an like it or not
and sunnites are not hearsay followsers, in fact they have more knowledge of the language than you, they were a lot more knowledgeable on arabic, and they discussed the problems like you do on this forum( see tafsirs). Difference being they were not influenced by 21th century western morals and science, and they were not trying to fit the qur'an with those. One could say they were the true quranists . I admit they were influenced by the sunna, oral traditions. But the qur'an was memorized and recited orally just like hadiths. The qur'an is the biggest hadith of all. After they were compiled like hadiths, some made it, others burned by Uthman. You re reading the quran Uthman allowed you to read
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Noon waalqalami a horse fly is a fly whose female feeds on blood and can hurt humans, it has nothing to do with albanians proverbs
huruf its because i am interested in your answer that i didnt catch that it WAS your answer because i didnt find it to make sense
I know there is not the word injil where it speaks about glad tidings, but you, say that Gospel means that, glad tidings. So there you have YOUR gospel. On tghr other hand one of the values of injeel quoted ind ictionaries is happy news, glad tidings, good news, announcement of something good to ome, robable related to the basic emeaning of the word, to beget. When you beget you get news of a happy birth.
do you mean the word kitab doesnt mean book but happy news? Were people of the book suppoed to uphold the law of happy news, judge by it, find it the name of the prophet? if not a book, to me it sounds like a mere message, a hadith(according to you)
I m telling you again, what kind of happy news could Jesus bring to Israel? that if they obey god they will have the good life after death? They already knew this according to the qur'an. -
Noon waalqalami Why do you quote the story of joseph ?
1273-75 said they of by the god verily know you not came we of to we corrupt in the land and not be/are we sariqina/thieves said they of so what jazauhu/recompense its if be you liars said they of recompense its whom found in bag his so he recompense its like such we recompense the wrongdoers
2129 and whom sayeth among them indeed I deity from besides him so such we recompense him abyss like such we recompense the wrongdoers
thuma means ...
The qur'an is the biggest hadith of all.
likewise (thumma), you keep regurgitating same clueless stuff from missionary and hearsay sites.
12111 verily were in story theirs lesson for the ones the knowledge not be hadithan/narration of fabricated and however confirmation the one between/was before it and detailed each thing and guidance and mercy for folk believing
moreover (thumma), show hadith manuscripts?
https//s10.postimg.org/lus2cbiqh/Ahlwardt_305_ch21v18-32.jpg
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When Allah tell people to cut off hands off thieves, you start twisting the words and add complexity from nowhere like satans. It doesn't say cutt off hand hands except if they repent. It would have been useless, all thieves would say "i repent!". It just says that Allah will forgive them if they repent. Not that we shouldn't cut heir hands.
Can you tell us why scholars say there is no evidence that sahabas cut off hands of thieves, but there is evidence that they chose to jail them?
By the way, do hindu gods truly have multiple hands or are they attached in status and pictures to represent their power?
The truth is that you don't obey to the qur'an, and that's a good thing. You twist the words in order to make it look nice.
Could you give us the study of yours? We would like to see how you did your test for your conclusion. Lets remember, Quran "guides". It is a manual. It would be idiotic of me to judge a Mercedes manual book by reading it. But do you do that?
Can't change the meaning of the word? "It's a metaphor!". Magical answer. "And i have the proof here if you look at this verse that has nothing to do with the first one, we can clearly see that" (from an article linked by wakas on thieves and punishment http//www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/cut-off-hands-theft.htm ) "to physically cut off the hand or hands of the thief is not the only possible understanding and taking into account the law of equivalence would perhaps only be reserved for significant theft which led to harming others," . This is NOT the qur'an. It is YOUR FABRICATION (quranists).
Your WISH. Dare you lie against Allah ? I am ok to use reason to do reasonable things. I am not ok to claim that an unreasonable book is reasonable if we change the things we don't like. Because sooner or later someone will not twist the words. He will obey like a true "believer". Hence killing of polytheists, cutting off hands. If you want to keep the good things in the qur'an do so. But don't claim it is a pink book, with no contradictions or violence. You are words twisters, and if satan does exist, you'd be good soldiers for him.
Strange. You have problem with God because you believe he called you a disbeliever. But then, you copy his style of conversation against Huruf? Isn't that hypocrisy? Ironically, now you give her the right to not take you as genuine. Of course, you lost the moment, you insisted on scholars being truthful. That's like insisting that Trump, Steve Bennon and all other alt-right people are truthful. Islam was revamped by same kind of people. It was them who decided upon the interpretations. Hence, Trump's ideology and Sharia seem very similar.
Scholars never hide the fact that they changed the meanings of certain words in the Quran. They shamelessly admit that Bukhari and many others distorted interpretations to help khalifs kill women and children. It is all in their textbooks. They agree that they used Exodus to change the meaning of Qatal to mean kill in Quran. To make things worse, the entire chapter 111 rests upon a faulty story that the man mentioned in it is none other than the uncle of Muhammad. Going back to history shows the chapter is about King Ahab of Israel. Scholars insist that khimar means head covering, but when asked for evidence that this was used in Prophet's time they go with the same old excuse that they lost the evidence. Who knew something "tangible" like fashion could get wiped out like that, but not the intangible thing called oral tradition??? If you believe in scholars like those good for you. But we won't because it is an insult to intelligence.
1273-75 said they of by the god verily know you not came we of to we corrupt in the land and not be/are we sariqina/thieves said they of so what jazauhu/recompense its if be you liars said they of recompense its whom found in bag his so he recompense its like such we recompense the wrongdoers
Don't work so hard on this one. Trump supporters never learn.
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Noon waalqalami the qur'an claiming not being a frabrication doesnt change the fact that it was transmitted orally like hadiths before being written on books. Then burnt by uthman, which kept the one he liked.
Quit quoting other verses that have nothing to do with the command of Allah about thieves. He asks to cut the hands of thieves. End. If you say otherwise, you speak from your desire and not from the qur'an. Yes it is written "recompense" in other verses. They still have nothing to do with the verse.
Huruf its been several posts that you dance around the answer without it being clear. Now please no games. What means to you the following words of the verse 7157 wal-injli / maktban ? Please just answer the meaning and don't start explaining all kinds of things. Just the meaning of the words.
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@reel
Can you tell us why scholars say there is no evidence that sahabas cut off hands of thieves, but there is evidence that they chose to jail them?Which scholars?
By the way, do hindu gods truly have multiple hands or are they attached in status and pictures to represent their power?
Do you mean that hands doesnt mean hands and that Allah likes to play riddles ?
http//corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=26&verse=49
doesn't mean hands?cutting hands mean cutting power? cutting feet means preventing escape? crucify means moses won't get any pie? this is STUPID. If God is watching you and cares about you telling the truth, don't you think you are into trouble speaking such nonsense? Or will you keep changing the words clear meanings to your liking and face the wrath of Allah?Could you give us the study of yours? We would like to see how you did your test for your conclusion. Lets remember, Quran "guides". It is a manual. It would be idiotic of me to judge a Mercedes manual book by reading it. But do you do that?
The qur'an claims to be a divine revelation. I claim it is not perfect nor divine according to its own claims. I am not advocating Sunnism. The first post i made is about qur'an contradiction.
"Cutting hands means cutting of power". Can you see how you are deluding yourself?. You want to believe that the qur'an is divine because it gives you an insurance for life after death. Fine. But you're doing it at the expense of truth. You want the qur'an to be as nice as your 21th century morals, so you twist it to make it as nice. You make the verses what you want them to say. But they don't. In fact if it was meant to say this people would never have their hands get cut . Do you people think you are the only ones to look at the qur'an?
Do you think parents tells their child to do things by speaking words that could be mistaken to mean kill someone or jump from the cliff? they would never use such dangerous expressions ! And yet, Allah, the ruler of the universe, seems to do so!according to you ! can you believe this crap !? the truth is Allah didn't do so, because even humans wouldn't do so. Even Muhammad is smart enough to tell someone what he wants, if he wants someone to get their hands cut. (Though he gets suddenly very vague when speaking about science.) Allah clearly told you to do barbaric things to please your messenger so he can get his women and spoils of war, but of course it was to help people that he took the spoils ! and the women he was helping them ! Free-minds should be renamed Deluded-ones.
If you were to read such things in another religious book, you would spit on it. but the qur'an gets the special treatment. Why ?Do you think the existence of God or the afterlife belongs to the qur'an or any religious book for that matter? that morals didn't exist before the qur'an? come on.
if you don't know arabic you shouldn't try to guess the meaning of words because it is too complicated and requires knowledge. Even then you d need to study classical arabic. You are getting brainwashed by pink lies about the meaning of the qur'an. And you indeed twist words without any basis. When you don't, you create metaphors and symbolism out of nowhere. Because you read "articles" or some crap on the internet. God help us.
Abu lahab is the King of israel . Nice one. You don't have any proof for this claim and keep going on the train of inventing things and believing everything you read as long as you like it. Moreover why the Lord of the Cosmos asks the whole humanity to read "Cursed be this guy. He will go to hell " until the end of the world in order to attain salvation??
And quoting the bible while saying it is falsified is illogical. Thats the fun thing with free-minds. They want to unite the world with the religion of peace, but they all have different doctrines. Thanks to the "i ll twist everything and speculate to my liking" mentality. Peaceful message today, war tomorrow, depending on the times and direction of the wind. Flat earth yesterday. Big bang tomorrow. And if later science discovers that the earth is flat we ll change our interpretation again. The basics for religion all in all.