Question for the people with knowledge
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He asks to cut the hands of thieves.
OK let's teach how to read, how many hands?
Moreover (thumma), why ?a shackle??538 and the male thief and the female thief fa-iqau/so severs ye of aydiyahum/hands (i.e. actions) theirs ( 3+) dual recompense in what earn dual nakalan/shackle of from the god and the god mighty wise
Furthermore (thumma), what are these ?hands? mentioned?
2847 ? in what have set forth hands theirs ?
4824 and he the one withheld hands theirs about you ?Don't work so hard on this one. Trump supporters never learn.
peace, he's all over the place cannot stay on topic and "yellow hair" will eventually turn on them only echos what they want to hear same as hitler in german bars who led them to being bombed to pieces, 2 million women raped etc. and at the end blamed the german people said they're not the superior race after all since they lost the war which they did big time in a short time.
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"Cutting hands means cutting of power". Can you see how you are deluding yourself?. You want to believe that the qur'an is divine because it gives you an insurance for life after death. Fine. But you're doing it at the expense of truth. You want the qur'an to be as nice as your 21th century morals, so you twist it to make it as nice. You make the verses what you want them to say. But they don't. In fact if it was meant to say this people would never have their hands get cut . Do you people think you are the only ones to look at the qur'an?
When you say in English "it rained cats and dogs last night" I am sure you do not run to collect cats and dogs in your back yard.
Every language has idioms and phrases that are used to convey certain meanings. A person claiming to know a language must be able to understand the usage of idioms and phrases otherwise he /she is deluded.
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When you say in English "it rained cats and dogs last night" I am sure you do not run to collect cats and dogs in your back yard.
Every language has idioms and phrases that are used to convey certain meanings. A person claiming to know a language must be able to understand the usage of idioms and phrases otherwise he /she is deluded.
That is right nd I suspect that in the Qur'an there are many things that are idiomatic and have been abused or mistranslated with the result that things sound weird or outright nonsense.
In the Qur'an most of the hand that appear are idiomatic. Real hands are few.
Salaam
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When you say in English "it rained cats and dogs last night" I am sure you do not run to collect cats and dogs in your back yard.
Every language has idioms and phrases that are used to convey certain meanings. A person claiming to know a language must be able to understand the usage of idioms and phrases otherwise he /she is deluded.
That is right nd I suspect that in the Qur'an there are many things that are idiomatic and have been abused or mistranslated with the result that things sound weird or outright nonsense.
In the Qur'an most of the hand that appear are idiomatic. Real hands are few.
Salaam
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That is right nd I suspect that in the Qur'an there are many things that are idiomatic and have been abused or mistranslated with the result that things sound weird or outright nonsense.
In the Qur'an most of the hand that appear are idiomatic. Real hands are few.
Salaam
Oh nice double post.
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1- You can't decide when something is idiomatic or not to your liking as you have no knowledge permitting you to do so. You are merely speculating.
2-You are admitting by saying that some things may be idiomatic that you have no idea what the qur'an says. As clear as fog. If you change all meanings you can make it mean whatever you want. This is not an honest approach, thus, not correct. Can you imagine liguists translating texts as you do? there would be as much differents meanings in a single text as the number of people translating it.
3-Noon waalqalami why are you dishonest? In a former post i linked this
http//corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=26&verse=49
How can you say that it can't mean hands, and what with your three or more crap? You did read an article on free-minds and you think is true? if you believe everything you read when it pleases you, you are going for a heck of a ride. Because something pleasing you doesn't make it true. Now look a this a second time, CLICK the link this time. It CAN mean hands, and does so
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=ydy#(264916)Here click on this one too, this one is very enlightening
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=5&verse=33#(53317)
And you can't put shackles on someone without hands. Did Allah put shackles on all the people in front of the jewish apes and others after them? --> http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=2&verse=66
4-To finish, why do you say trump supporters? i am not american and trump is not my president. I believed still in quranism very recently. I did go the mosque for months. Why do you speak of which you have no idea? I have an hypothesis this is exactly what you people do all year round on this forum.
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1- You can't decide when something is idiomatic or not to your liking as you have no knowledge permitting you to do so. You are merely speculating.
2-You are admitting by saying that some things may be idiomatic that you have no idea what the qur'an says. As clear as fog. If you change all meanings you can make it mean whatever you want. This is not an honest approach, thus, not correct. Can you imagine liguists translating texts as you do? there would be as much differents meanings in a single text as the number of people translating it.
3-Noon waalqalami why are you dishonest? In a former post i linked this
http//corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=26&verse=49
How can you say that it can't mean hands, and what with your three or more crap? You did read an article on free-minds and you think is true? if you believe everything you read when it pleases you, you are going for a heck of a ride. Because something pleasing you doesn't make it true. Now look a this a second time, CLICK the link this time. It CAN mean hands, and does so
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=ydy#(264916)Here click on this one too, this one is very enlightening
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=5&verse=33#(53317)
And you can't put shackles on someone without hands. Did Allah put shackles on all the people in front of the jewish apes and others after them? --> http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=2&verse=66
4-To finish, why do you say trump supporters? i am not american and trump is not my president. I believed still in quranism very recently. I did go the mosque for months. Why do you speak of which you have no idea? I have an hypothesis this is exactly what you people do all year round on this forum.
You are running amok and doing for me everything I have not done. I suggest that something could be and you run awaaaaaaaaaaaaaay attributing to me anything you fantisize with.
Bye bye, you have run too far away from reality. Have a good trip.
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How can you say that it can't mean hands, and what with your three or more...
You did read an article on free-minds and you think is true?
I do my own translations moreover (thumma) disagree with articles.
thumma you need to focus on a single topic; open separate threads.
thumma you need learn basic sing, dual, plural (3+) before posting.
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Noon waalqalami
i posted verses which show it does means hands(pharaoh wants to cut theirt hands/feet and crucify them), that muhammad even ask to crucify or cut hands and feets of people, and a verse about jewish apes where your "shackles" don't mean shackles
as soon as you dislike a verse you look for other meanings even if it makes a lot less sense/not any sense
if you can't you will look at other verses to abrogate it
if you can't you say it is symbolic or idiomatic
you know no shame about it. Does Allah appreciate how dishonest you are?
I do my own translations
Yes actually that is the problem. Everyone does his own translation here. But the qur'an is clear and a guide for humanity. Duh.
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You are running amok and doing for me everything I have not done. I suggest that something could be and you run awaaaaaaaaaaaaaay attributing to me anything you fantisize with.
Bye bye, you have run too far away from reality. Have a good trip.
I am not away from reality. You say it could be idiomatic. Therefore
- if something doesen't fit your preconceived opinion it could be idiomatic
- It could be idiomatic, therefore the qur'an is not clear.
Not very nice from Muhammad to give us the guide to attain salvation and put expressions from the 6th century in it that we will not understand. Or maybe it's not idiomatic. But you don't want to accept that he asks you to cut the hands of thieves.
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I am not away from reality. You say it could be idiomatic. Therefore
- if something doesen't fit your preconceived opinion it could be idiomatic
- It could be idiomatic, therefore the qur'an is not clear.
Not very nice from Muhammad to give us the guide to attain salvation and put expressions from the 6th century in it that we will not understand. Or maybe it's not idiomatic. But you don't want to accept that he asks you to cut the hands of thieves.
I wish you a nice, nice, nice galloping awaaaaaay!
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TO FINISH about the hands of thieves problem, here is the proof that you are either a bunch of liars or naive people believing every quranic article theyr read
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=5&verse=38#(5384)
aydiyahum
the pronoun is DUAL, the noun is PLURAL, it means the hands of TWO people, and since usually two people have four hands, the noun is PLURAL
is this too far from reality for you huruf?
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what is funny? that the people telling you that it didnt mean cut the hands were playing with you since the start?
So please, now for us who are idiots and had tyo wait for you to know anything, please invent gun power for us, or discover America for us.
Of course yui kow that we about plurals and hands much than you will ever imgine exists. So for you it is new and you parade ridiculously such a well known and plain thing, as if you were showing as a marvel.
Please keep galloping awaaaaaay have a good long trip on whatever you are on.
Salaam
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if you knew about plural why say it doesnt mean hands then? why claim it is idiomatic ? you have absolutely no basis to claim it is. this verse is plain and simple as can be. so that's it, you re either naive or liars. the possibility of some of you being intentional liars being strong because
https//www.free-minds.org/theft-punishment
The first understanding says that 538 means to cut off the thief's hand. I do not agree with this understanding for the following reasons. First, the Arabic word <aydiyahuma> is the plural (three or more) of <yad> (hand) used in dual form. As we know, each one of us has normally only two hands, including thieves. How can we possibly cut off the hands (three or more) of a thief? Even if we accept that the hands in this aya refer to the hands of both thieves, should we then cut off both hands of a thief?
clearly this article from free-minds is a lie, and a moderator named Wakas does say it too "this can't refer to hands because it means three or more hands." as the pronoun is dual meaning two persons who have obviously more than two hands. Wakas linked this in posts and admits it himself
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/cut-off-hands-theft.htm
"It should also be noted that this word is in the Arabic plural meaning 3 or more hands, whilst only two people are referenced the male and the female thief. Some have commented that this plural usage causes problems for the common interpretation of hand cutting." No, it doesn't cause any problem. Two people. Four hands.
Is this not clear enough for you ?
533 The recompense of those who fight God and His messenger, and seek to make corruption in the land, is that they will be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from alternate sides or that they be banished from the land; that is a disgrace for them in this world and in the Hereafter they will have a great retribution.
This verses clearly speaks in the same words about cutting the hands.
Here is you answer to thisHURUF , found in a former topic, (not in regard to cutting hands, but to violence in general in the verse 533 i am copy pasting you
huruf
As is the usual thing with this poster solomon, the aya is completely mistranslated. There is no punishment in that aya and nobody is told to do anything to anybody nor to inflict anybody with any punishment.Dirthy or filthy posting that is.
Salaam
Your methodology changes greatly if something go against the qur'an or for the qur'an. Or you are a liar. See next verse.
534 Except for those who repent before you overpower them, then know that God is Forgiving, Merciful.
So it clearly tells muslims waging war to crucify and cut the feets/hands, except if the infidels repent before the muslims overpower them.
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clearly this article from free-minds is a lie, and a moderator named Wakas does say it too "this can't refer to hands because it means three or more hands." as the pronoun is dual meaning two persons who have obviously more than two hands. Wakas linked this in posts and admits it himself
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/cut-off-hands-theft.htm
"It should also be noted that this word is in the Arabic plural meaning 3 or more hands, whilst only two people are referenced the male and the female thief. Some have commented that this plural usage causes problems for the common interpretation of hand cutting." No, it doesn't cause any problem. Two people. Four hands.
Is this not clear enough for you ?
Umm....why didn't add these parts?
The Arabic word translated as "cut" in 538 is "iqtaa" and occurs 14 other times in the same verb form (QaTaA) in The Quran, and with the exception of 595 and possibly 6946 all other occurrences mean the non-physical or metaphorical action of "cutting off relationship" or "ending" .
The derivatives that are read in the 2nd verb form (QaTTaA) occur 17 times. This form, which expresses intensity or frequency of the action, is used both to mean physical cutting off and metaphorical cutting off as well as physically cutting/marking . It is interesting to note that even though 1231 uses the more intensive verb form and both "cut" and "hands" together, it does not mean "cut off". The less intensive form is used in 538.
Secondly, the Arabic word for "hands" (aydi) is often used in The Quran in a metaphorical/metonymical manner , and often has a meaning of power/means/sustenance. Interestingly, when it means "sustenance" the plural is always used, as used in 538.
It should also be noted that this word is in the Arabic plural meaning 3 or more hands, whilst only two people are referenced the male and the female thief. Some have commented that this plural usage causes problems for the common interpretation of hand cutting.Thirdly, the word (singular yad, plural aydi) in Arabic can refer to any part of the human arm; up to and including the shoulder joint. Therefore, it can refer to the hand from the fingertips up to the wrist, or up to the elbow, or up to the shoulder joint. There is no specification in verse 538 as to the point at which the aydi should allegedly be severed - which is unusual - whereas for ablution in 56 it specifies how much is to be washed (e.g. it says "wash your aydi upto the elbows".
One other potential problem is created if 538 means to physically cut off the hand or hands of the thief, when we consider what were to happen if a person had no hands or had been punished before hence had no more hands to cut/mark or cut off.
Also, when lashes are given as punishment for proven adultery, The Quran states not to let pity/compassion prevent you from carrying out such a punishment , but it says no such thing for the alleged hand cutting-off verse, when many consider this punishment to be worse. This adds to the possibility that it should not be taken to mean this.
Thus, it is possible to understand the punishment for thieves in four alternative ways
(1) cutting off their hands
(2) cutting or marking their hands
(3) cutting their means/power to steal, e.g. detention/jail.
(4) cutting their sustenance, e.g. in order to compensate the value of the theft.It does seem the punishment could be flexible depending upon the time, circumstances and severity of crime - it is up to the society to choose one of these meanings or a combination of them depending on the severity of the crime and their ability to enforce the penalty.
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@The sardar
(1) cutting off their hands
The most evident meaning.
(2) cutting or marking their hand
Most of the time the verb means to separate. That would fit amputation, not marking.
In the 0.00000000001% probabilty that it is true, Allah would have dark humor if he used words that can be mistaken for amputation. Maybe he should learn to speak better? Or maybe you shoudl try to not twist the words?(3) cutting their means/power to steal, e.g. detention/jail.
pure speculation from wannabelieve quranists. In 533 do we choose between cutting their power or crucifying them? Its about hands not power. Arabic has other words if you want to send someone in jail. Arabic doesn't need metaphors to say things all the time. And that would make Allah a poet. And you would be the chosen ones who deciphered his sacred riddle. A guide for humanity you said?
(4) cutting their sustenance, e.g. in order to compensate the value of the theft.
see above
