Question for the people with knowledge
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More on heaven/earth
Allah can't establish the sustenance of Earth if he didnt create it right ? So he created first the Earth in 2 days. Then he established its provisions/sustenance and mountains in 4 days. Allah said to the heaven while it was smoke to come with the earth. So the earth has been already created The heaven (as smoke)can't come with the earth before the third day, because Allah created the Earth during the two first days. For the Earth to speak, or even to be mentioned, it should exist, right?
1- In verse 7927, Allah makes the night and day light and raises heaven's ceiling and proportions, AFTER that, he spreads the earth and put the mountains. This contradicts Verse 419 in which allah adorned the lowest heaven with lamps, lowest heavens made after the smoke heaven and the earth said "we come willingly".
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huruf i don't understand and to want to lose my energy for that, do you claim that there is a book called the injil? or do you claim that there is no such book ?
Anything preached, anything revealed by God or the angels can be written and put into a book. In the Qur'an maktub or kitab do not necessarily mean a book, it is something decreed disposed by God.
The book, the material book Qur'an, as you probably know is called moSHaf, root S-f-H, SaHaf is sheet, plural SuHuf, sheets.In the Qur'an there is mention of the SuHuf al wulaa, the first sheets, and there is mention of the sheets of Musa, and sheets of Ibrahim, no SuHuf 3isa, no SuHuf injil. So if we want an injil certified by the Qur'an it will have to be those things that the Qur'an itself mentions.
Logical, since the basis for those human linneages mentionned in the Qur'an were already laid with Ibrahim and Musa, and later, to clean and update came the Qur'an.
So indeed, anything can be put into a book and there are many, many things that are worth putting into book form but those things that were put in book or sheets and that the Qur'an cares to mention, are the sheets of Ibrahim and the sheets of Musa, collectively named the first sheets, asSuHuf alwulaa.
Salaam
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More on heaven/earth
Allah can't establish the sustenance of Earth if he didnt create it right ? So he created first the Earth in 2 days. Then he established its provisions/sustenance and mountains in 4 days. Allah said to the heaven while it was smoke to come with the earth. So the earth has been already created The heaven (as smoke)can't come with the earth before the third day, because Allah created the Earth during the two first days. For the Earth to speak, or even to be mentioned, it should exist, right?
1- In verse 7927, Allah makes the night and day light and raises heaven's ceiling and proportions, AFTER that, he spreads the earth and put the mountains. This contradicts Verse 419 in which allah adorned the lowest heaven with lamps, lowest heavens made after the smoke heaven and the earth said "we come willingly".
keep posting same missionary troll stuff need to read carefully which word/s are being translated as what.
again use 4111 thumma/furthermore/moreover, etc., there are no contradictions!
again consistently translate thumma throughout Qur'an as in this verse.
6154 thumma/furthermore gave we of moses the book...
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=6&verse=154
to translate thumma as THEN in the above verse is nonsensical!
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The virgin was surrounded by a light exceeding bright, and brought forth her son without pain (barnabas gospel chap 3)
1923 (qur'an) Then the birth pains came to her, by the trunk of a palm tree. She said "I wish I had died before this, and became totally forgotten!"
The Gospel of Barnabas is a book depicting the life of Jesus, which claims to be by the biblical Barnabas who in this work is one of the twelve apostles. Two manuscripts are known to have existed, both dated to the late 16th or early 17th centuries, with one written in Italian and the other in Spanish. (wikipedia)
tlihawa research a little bit before posting. I don't ask people to know everything, but a little effort atleast please.
Yeah, that thing will be on the first page of google search, when you type "gospel barnabas rejected".
But I dont bother with the things like that. God has warned me long before you, to do the research,..to use Al Furqan as muhaymin.
548 And We have revealed to you, , the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it <muhayminan>.
Muhayminan = haimana
To watch over, to be witness to, offer security and peace, control, protect, determine what is true, Guardian, to watch and determine what is true and what is false witnessI dont expect that gospels to be 100% free of errors,.but as long as I have Quran as muhaymin in my hands, nothing to worry about.
I focus on the truth, not on the false witnessing. Here is the way I see the gospels
371 "O people of the Book, why do you confound the truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know?"
279 So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.
God informed us that people of the book confound the truth with falsehood, and also hiding the truth. So in my point of view, there is no chance to get the Injil 100% free of errors. But the shows must go on.
In another verse, God is keep telling us to believe in previous scriptures (these corrupted ones), especially for the people who follow it.
547 And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.
568 Say "O people of the Book, you are not upon anything until you uphold the Torah and the Gospel and what was sent down to you from your Lord." And for many of them, what was sent down to you from your Lord will only increase them in transgression and rejection. So do not feel sorry for the rejecting people.
How come God keep telling them to believe and uphold the corrupted books that He confirmed in another verse?
The answer is lie on the next verse,..that now we have a muhaymin, (a criterion to determine what is true and false witnessing)
The point is to keep focus on the truth, not the corrupted ones.
2137 So if they believe in the same as you believe in, then they have been rightly guided;
So I dont give up with the most known and corrupted gospels nowadays. My believe is not depend on others opinion. Christian and Moslem scholars may rejected Gospel of Barnabas, but they are not my "muhaymin". I know for sure how to treat the gospels.
I have my own reason why do I believe in most part of the Gospel of Barnabas. It promotes God Alone firmly using a parable which also used in Quran.
Quran style
2941 The example of those who take allies besides God is like the spider, who takes for itself a home; and the weakest home is the home of the spider, if only they knew.
9109 Is he who founds his building on obtaining righteousness from God and His acceptance better, or he who founds his building on the edge of a cliff which is about to crumble, so that it crumbled with him into the fires of Hell? And God does not guide the wicked people.
9110 Their buildings that they built continue to cause doubt in their hearts, until their hearts are severed. And God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
The strong foundation of the House, which was built by Ibrahim and Ismail is the opposite of their spider polytheist 'house'. It was the monotheism, God Alone.
2127 And when Abraham was raising the foundations of the House and Ishmael, "Our Lord, accept this from us. Indeed You are the Hearing, the Knowing.
2226 And when We designated for Abraham the site of the House, "Do not associate anything with Me and purify My House for those who perform Tawaf and those who stand and those who bow and prostrate..
The same approach I found in the Gospel of Barnabas,
Chap 33
Then said he who had invited him 'Master, which is the greatest sin?'
Jesus answered 'Which is the greatest ruin of a house?'
Everyone was silent, when Jesus with his finger pointed to the foundation, and said 'If the foundation give way, immediately the house falleth in ruin, in such wise that it is necessary to build it up anew but if every other part give way it can be repaired. Even so then say I to you, that idolatry is the greatest sin, because it depriveth a man entirely of faith, and consequently of God; so that he can have no spiritual affection. But every other sin leaveth to man the hope of obtaining mercy and therefore I say that idolatry is the greatest sin.'
The greatest sin is idolatry, the house of spider, the weakest house ever.
I compared the saying of Jesus with Quran,
1626 Those before them had schemed, so God came to their buildings from the foundation, thus the roof fell on top of them; and the retribution came to them from where they did not know.
1627 Then, on the Day of Resurrection He will humiliate them, and say "Where are My partners regarding whom you used to dispute?" Those who have received the knowledge said "The humiliation today and the misery are upon the rejecters."2943 And these examples We present to the people, but none will understand them except those of knowledge.
So I won't reject the whole Book of Barnabas just only because "the virgin was surrounded by a light exceeding bright, and brought forth her son without pain". The warning of the idolatry part is much bigger than that, and could save many people of the book who believe on that for the sake of justice of God.
Chap 53
...And having said this, Jesus smote his face with both his hands, and then smote the ground with is head. And having raised his head, he said 'Cursed be every one who shall insert into my sayings that I am the son of God.' At these words the disciples fell down as dead, whereupon Jesus lifted them up, saying 'Let us fear God now, if we would not be affrighted in that day.'
Salaam
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Peace tlihawa.
Are you reading 547 and 568 correctly?
Where do they even mention any corrupted scripture? Please have another look at them and what GOD is really saying to those who received previous scriptures!!!
Look at the words of GOD very carefully
547 Judge by what Allah has revealed therein" Means GOD s words only - the uncorrupted versions ,If they are not GOD s words i.e men s versions/explanations/false doctrines...Do not judge by them!
GOD is saying this
"Anzala mMna Al Samaa Maan Fasalat Awdiyatun... Fakhtalata Assaylu Zabadan Rabian...Kadhalika yadribu Allah AlHaq Wa Al Baatil...i.e that we have to purify the corrupted...like they purify gold and silver from the Zabad/impurities/mud and rocks.... To find GOD s original words/meanings...etc.
So you are right to use Qoran as criteria, but you are wrong to assume GOD told them to judge by what they have(Which is a mixture of truth and falsehood)!!!
568 The same here ,Torah and Injeel that GOD sent down to them not their own versions?" What was sent down to you from your Lord"....Only GOD s words will do!
Thanks and GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace tlihawa.
Are you reading 547 and 568 correctly?
Where do they even mention any corrupted scripture? Please have another look at them and what GOD is really saying to those who received previous scriptures!!!
Look at the words of GOD very carefully
547 Judge by what Allah has revealed therein" Means GOD s words only - the uncorrupted versions ,If they are not GOD s words i.e men s versions/explanations/false doctrines...Do not judge by them!
GOD is saying this
"Anzala mMna Al Samaa Maan Fasalat Awdiyatun... Fakhtalata Assaylu Zabadan Rabian...Kadhalika yadribu Allah AlHaq Wa Al Baatil...i.e that we have to purify the corrupted...like they purify gold and silver from the Zabad/impurities/mud and rocks.... To find GOD s original words/meanings...etc.
So you are right to use Qoran as criteria, but you are wrong to assume GOD told them to judge by what they have(Which is a mixture of truth and falsehood)!!!
568 The same here ,Torah and Injeel that GOD sent down to them not their own versions?" What was sent down to you from your Lord"....Only GOD s words will do!
Thanks and GOD bless you.
Peace.Salaam Good Logic,
I think you know what I mean.Peace
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More on heaven/earth
Allah can't establish the sustenance of Earth if he didnt create it right ? So he created first the Earth in 2 days. Then he established its provisions/sustenance and mountains in 4 days. Allah said to the heaven while it was smoke to come with the earth. So the earth has been already created The heaven (as smoke)can't come with the earth before the third day, because Allah created the Earth during the two first days. For the Earth to speak, or even to be mentioned, it should exist, right?
1- In verse 7927, Allah makes the night and day light and raises heaven's ceiling and proportions, AFTER that, he spreads the earth and put the mountains. This contradicts Verse 419 in which allah adorned the lowest heaven with lamps, lowest heavens made after the smoke heaven and the earth said "we come willingly".
keep posting same missionary troll stuff need to read carefully which word/s are being translated as what.
again use 4111 thumma/furthermore/moreover, etc., there are no contradictions!
again consistently translate thumma throughout Qur'an as in this verse.
6154 thumma/furthermore gave we of moses the book...
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=6&verse=154
to translate thumma as THEN in the above verse is nonsensical!
Noon waalqalami, you are claiming that God didn't place mountains on earth after creating it. I'll let you draw the conclusions.
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Noon waalqalami, you are claiming that God didn't place mountains on earth after creating it. I'll let you draw the conclusions.
Ju5, please be more precise and clear on what exactly is it that you are asking.
one question/thread at a time -- again you are confusing different words used.
open different thread, restate exactly which verse/word/s you find contradict.
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Noon waalqalami the contradiction about heaven creation is in the first post can i be more precise? after my last post about it, your answer was "missionary troll, thumma doesnt mean furthermore" but the argumentation of the post didn't involve the meaning of thumma (which still means "next" in my opinion) but only logic, read again
Allah can't establish the sustenance of Earth if he didnt create it right ? So he created first the Earth in 2 days. Then he established its provisions/sustenance and mountains in 4 days. Allah said to the heaven while it was smoke to come with the earth. So the earth has been already created The heaven (as smoke)can't come with the earth before the third day, because Allah created the Earth during the two first days. For the Earth to speak, or even to be mentioned, it should exist, right?
1- In verse 7927, Allah makes the night and day light and raises heaven's ceiling and proportions, AFTER that, he spreads the earth and put the mountains. This contradicts Verse 419 in which allah adorned the lowest heaven with lamps, lowest heavens made after the smoke heaven and the earth said "we come willingly".
regardless of thumma s meaning, in 419 the earth is created before the mountains, because of logic. in 7927 thumma is not used
editNoon waalqalami i was'nt quoting the verse when i said "after" and "then"; I was just communicating using english words
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Ju5, please show what exactly it is that you are talking about, highlight the contradiction and word/s?
419 say do indeed you surely rejecting in the one creation the land in days two and thou making to him equals of such lord the worlds inhabitants
4110 and made therein firm peaks from above it and bless therein and decree therein sustenance its in quartet days equitable for those who ask
4111 thumma/furthermore establishes to the heaven and are smoke/hot gas so said to it and to the land come dual like of/willingly or dislike of/unwillingly said dual come we of obedient7926 indeed in such surely lesson to whom concerned
7927 is it you vigorous creation of or the heaven built it?
7928 raise roof its so fashioned it
7929 and darkened night its and brings out morning rise its
7930 and the land after such dahaha/laid out/spread it -
huruf, in the qur'an there are words to say "glad tidings". Those words are not "injil".
33 He sent down to you the Book with the truth, affirming what is between his hands; and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel.
348 And He teaches him the Book and the Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel.
546 And We sent in their footsteps Jesus, son of Mary, affirming what was between his hands of the Torah. And We gave him the Gospel, in it is a guidance and a light, and affirming what was between his hands of the Torah, and a guidance and a lesson for the righteous.
547 And let the people of the Gospel judge with what God has sent down in it. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the wicked.
566 And if they had upheld the Torah and the Gospel, and what was sent down to them from their Lord, they would have been rewarded from above them and from beneath their feet.
568 Say "O people of the Book, you are not upon anything until you uphold the Torah and the Gospel and what was sent down to you from your Lord."
5110 God said "O Jesus, son of Mary, recall My blessings upon you and your mother, that I supported you with the Holy Spirit; you spoke to the people in the cradle and middle age; and I taught you the Book and the wisdom, and the Torah, and the Gospel;
7157 Those who follow the messenger, the gentile prophet, whom they find written for them in the Torah and the Gospel;
9111 they fight in the cause of God-so they kill and are killed-a promise that is true upon Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an.
4829 Such is their example in the Torah. And their example in the Gospel is like a plant which shoots out and becomes strong and thick and it stands straight on its trunk,
5727 Then We sent in their tracks Our messengers. And We sent Jesus, son of Mary, and We gave him the Gospel
The injil is a noun, it is compared to books (qur'an and torah); it s been given, taught, the people of the book could follow it, they can find written in it the named of the prophet, there s an example of a plant that offshoots stalks in it, the people how the book should uphold its laws and judge by it, the people of the book are called PEOPLE OF THE BOOK
It takes some heavy bias and gymnastics to say it was not a book. The basis for most christians and jews are Books. They didn't transmit religion trough the world for 600 years orally.
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Ju5, please show what exactly it is that you are talking about, highlight the contradiction and word/s?
419 say do indeed you surely rejecting in the one creation the land in days two and thou making to him equals of such lord the worlds inhabitants
4110 and made therein firm peaks from above it and bless therein and decree therein sustenance its in quartet days equitable for those who ask
4111 thumma/furthermore establishes to the heaven and are smoke/hot gas so said to it and to the land come dual like of/willingly or dislike of/unwillingly said dual come we of obedient7926 indeed in such surely lesson to whom concerned
7927 is it you vigorous creation of or the heaven built it?
7928 raise roof its so fashioned it
7929 and darkened night its and brings out morning rise its
7930 and the land after such dahaha/laid out/spread itIf you actually read the post that i had to paste in hope that you would read it this time you would understand. Do i have to paste it a second time so that i write 3 times the same message or can you actually make the effort to seek it. Please.
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If you actually read the post that i had to paste in hope that you would read it this time you would understand. Do i have to paste it a second time so that i write 3 times the same message or can you actually make the effort to seek it. Please.
no your post was not clear and sloppy and believe you are suggesting Qur'an says
heavens created 1st then earth 2nd
earth created 1st then heavens 2ndwhich is not the case read carefully.
419 say do indeed you surely rejecting in the one creation the land in days two and thou making to him equals of such lord the worlds inhabitants
4110 and made therein firm peaks from above it and bless therein and decree therein sustenance its in quartet days equitable for those who ask
4111 thumma/furthermore (i.e. moreover, likewise, in addition, besides; used to introduce a fresh consideration and put emphasis about creation NOT then/afterwards!) establishes to the heaven and are smoke/hot gas so said to it and to the land come dual like of/willingly or dislike of/unwillingly said dual come we of obedient7927 is it you vigorous creation of or the heaven built it?
7928 raise roof its so fashioned it
7929 and darkened night its and brings out morning rise its
7930 and the land after such dahaha/laid out/spread itpeace!
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huruf, in the qur'an there are words to say "glad tidings". Those words are not "injil".
33 He sent down to you the Book with the truth, affirming what is between his hands; and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel.
348 And He teaches him the Book and the Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel.
546 And We sent in their footsteps Jesus, son of Mary, affirming what was between his hands of the Torah. And We gave him the Gospel, in it is a guidance and a light, and affirming what was between his hands of the Torah, and a guidance and a lesson for the righteous.
547 And let the people of the Gospel judge with what God has sent down in it. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the wicked.
566 And if they had upheld the Torah and the Gospel, and what was sent down to them from their Lord, they would have been rewarded from above them and from beneath their feet.
568 Say "O people of the Book, you are not upon anything until you uphold the Torah and the Gospel and what was sent down to you from your Lord."
5110 God said "O Jesus, son of Mary, recall My blessings upon you and your mother, that I supported you with the Holy Spirit; you spoke to the people in the cradle and middle age; and I taught you the Book and the wisdom, and the Torah, and the Gospel;
7157 Those who follow the messenger, the gentile prophet, whom they find written for them in the Torah and the Gospel;
9111 they fight in the cause of God-so they kill and are killed-a promise that is true upon Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an.
4829 Such is their example in the Torah. And their example in the Gospel is like a plant which shoots out and becomes strong and thick and it stands straight on its trunk,
5727 Then We sent in their tracks Our messengers. And We sent Jesus, son of Mary, and We gave him the Gospel
The injil is a noun, it is compared to books (qur'an and torah); it s been given, taught, the people of the book could follow it, they can find written in it the named of the prophet, there s an example of a plant that offshoots stalks in it, the people how the book should uphold its laws and judge by it, the people of the book are called PEOPLE OF THE BOOK
It takes some heavy bias and gymnastics to say it was not a book. The basis for most christians and jews are Books. They didn't transmit religion trough the world for 600 years orally.
What are you playing at.
I know there is not the word injil where it speaks about glad tidings, but you, say that Gospel means that, glad tidings. So there you have YOUR gospel. On tghr other hand one of the values of injeel quoted ind ictionaries is happy news, glad tidings, good news, announcement of something good to ome, robable related to the basic emeaning of the word, to beget. When you beget you get news of a happy birth.
It takes blind faith to say the Gospel was a book, as you know it is a collection of books. the injil, may be whatever it may be, but the Qur'an does not say that it is a book.
Salaam
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Noon waalqalami you don't understand so i'll explain 7927 say First Heaven + Lamps then Land; So according to this verse the earth comes after heaven.
In 419 Allah completes the 7 heavens in two days and puts the lamps into the lowest heaven. Before making the 7 heavens, the heaven is smoke. Allah tells the smoke and the earth come willingly then (FA is used and indicates immediate succession) turns the heaven into 7 heavens and put the lamps in the lowest. This means that when he created the earth (and it makes sense that it is created, because just before in the verse god created it and used thumma to link the sentences, and because you don't talk to things that don't exist), allah tells it and to the smoke heaven to come willingly. Thus earth was created before Heaven.
Let the gymnastics begin
-If you say earth was created after heaven, why Allah talks to the earth(why would not exist according to you) while heaven is smoke then(FA) turned to 7 heavens in two days. Is he speaking to void, only to create it 2 days after?-Does allah make heaven and earth at the same time? Then why would he says otherwise in 7927?
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Most of debates like this one arise because people do not understand how the Ancients wrote the Scriptures, be OT, NT, or Qur'an.
Heaven then earth
7927 Are you a more powerful creation than the heaven which He built?
7928 He raised its height, and perfected it.
7929 And He covered its night and brought out its morning.
7930 And the land after that He spread out.
7931 He brought forth from it its water and pasture.
7932 And the mountains He fixed firmly.Earth then heaven
419 Say "You are rejecting the One who has created the earth in two days, and you set up equals with Him. That is the Lord of the worlds."
4110 And He placed in it stabilizers from above it, and He blessed it and established its provisions in proportion in four days, to satisfy those who ask.
4111 Then He settled to the heaven, while it was still smoke, and He said to it, and to the earth "Come willingly or unwillingly." They said "We come willingly."
4112 Thus, He then made them into seven heavens in two days, and He inspired to every heaven its affair. And We adorned the lowest heaven with lamps, and for protection. Such is the design of the Noble, the Knowledgeable.Qur'an is not a book of astrophysics, that Allah would have taught to uneducated Bedouins.
Qur'an is a book of guidance to establish the Deen for people of the 7th century CE and really only makes sense when studied through Jewish eschatology.The earth (al-'Ard) in these verse is not our planet, it is the Promised Land as understood by the Jews.
The Heavens represent the mind and the spiritual abode. At the beginning they are only smoke, because of spiritual confusion. Then by clarification of the mind and lucidity, that is called al-islam in Qur'an, they become clear.
The mountains represent the theological construction of the Deen, linking the Land and the Heavens, as Moses received the Law on Mount Sina?. A firm Deen, i.e. a firm Law, established of sound ground, makes the Land stable and not shake.
By correctly understanding the metaphors behind the earth, the heaven and the mountain, it is irrelevant whether which one has appeared first.
Of course, these metaphors only make sense within some commonly understood cosmogony in the 7th CE, but purpose of Qur'an is not expose the cosmogony.
Second,
people here say that Injil is indeed an arabic word and not greek words(good news), and that the Injil is not the gospel, and that Isa is not Jesus, but i found a post that make this position very hard to defend, which i am quoting here (by "youssef4342"
It would be quite farfetched to say that Isa is not Jesus and that the gospel is not the injil (what would be that injil that is mentioned several times? Why would the gospels would not be mentioned as they are the scriptures of christians ? WikipediaThe Arabic word Injil (ل as found in Islamic texts, and now used also by Muslim non-Arabs and Arab non-Muslims, is derived from the Syriac Aramaic word awongaleeyoon (ܢ found in the Peshitta (Syriac translation of the Bible), which in turn derives from the Greek word euangelion (ν of the originally Greek language New Testament, where it means "good news" (from Greek " "; Old English "gdspel"
Please note also that Mary in the gospel is not called Miriam, but Mariam (the aramaic form of Miriam). She is also called Mariam in the Qur'an.
Now, if Jesus is Isa -it is quite striking than his mother Mariam has a father called Imran and a brother called Harun (Aaron), while the Miriam of the Torah is also sister to Aaron and daughter to Amram. This may be a confusion between Miriam from the Torah and Mariam from the gospels.
It has never existed Jesus, a Messiah or a messenger in the 1st century CE.
The concept of Jesus in Christianity is a merge of different concepts
- The Greek Logos, the Verb, as the active reason pervading and animating the universe.
This concept was incompatible with the concept of God in Old Testament, until Philo of Alexendria, a Jew of the 1st century CE, made it the mind of God and His firstborn (see http//cornerstonepublications.org80/Philo/Philo_On_The_Confusion_of_Tongues.html XIV).
Then, a lot of pagan Greeks and Romans began converting to a kind of Judaism.
This Logos concept as firsborn of God has given rise to the Hermetic philosophy as described in the books of Hermes Trismegistus, like the Pymander.
The beginning of the Pymander is very similar to the Gospel of John, except that in addition in the Gospel of John, the Verb became flesh.- The promise of salvation in Old Testament, represented by the Messiah, who is metaphorically designed as the son in various stories of the Old Testament. In Jewish eschatology, the Messiah must come at the height of the adversity, i.e. the exile and idolatry, and then the Jews will come back to the Promised Land and the pagans will enter in the Alliance with God.
Then in OT stories, wanting a son (like Sarah, Rachel, Zacharia, etc.) means hoping for the fulfillment of the promise of salvation.
Annunciation of that the promise will be fulfilled is called in Greek euangelion which comes from Hebrew bessora.
Hebrew bessora cognates with Arabic bashira, a word that is heavily used in Qur'an.Now the noun Jesus comes from Hebrew Yehoshua through Greek and Aramaic Yeshua. Yehoshua means God saves.
Besides Yehoshua / Yeshua in the Gospels, there are two other Yehoshua in the OT Yehoshua bin Nun, successor of Moses, the one who has made the Hebrew enter in the Promised Land, and Yehoshua the High Priest, who has organized the come back of the Jews in the Promised Land after Exile in Babylon. Possibly, only the second has ever existed historically, and the first one has been modelled on the second one.
Messiah is a Hebrew word whose translation in Greek is "Christ".
Combining 1) and 2), the primitive christianism, developed by convert pagans, exposed a doctrine where the Logos, as the firstborn of God was the expected Messiah, i.e. would fulfill the promise of salvation, after the destruction of the Second Temple.
This concept was named Yeshua / Jesus in reference to the two other Yeshua of the OT. This is the Verb made flesh in the Gospel of John.
Crucifiction of the Christ means that the promise of salvation is fulfilled at the height of the adversity. There is no physical Temple anymore, the Church is now the Temple.Some characters in the Gospels, like Zacharia, Mariam, Yeshua, Elisabeth, Joseph, Aaron etc, are actually characters of the OT.
They are recycled to produce a new narrative.
This is exactly how the Ancient Jews created new stories, this is the exactly the same process as used to produce midrashim.
These characters are totally fictitious.Then the Gospels were pitch to explain to the first Christians that the prophecy was removed from the non-Christian Jews and given to them.
No Gospel is more authentic than another, if authentic means describing the true Jesus. Some are clearly late elaboration.
Other, such as the Gospel of Barnabas, were invented very very late (Middle Age) as part of debates to rebuke the first ones.Now, the author of Qur'an wanted to stick the symbolism of the son as described in OT, meaning promise of salvation. This is the topic of beginning of Surah 19. He rejected the concept of the Son as being the Logos, in Arabic, the kalimat. The Son is only the promise of the advent of the new world, representing salvation.
Injeel in Qur'an is a wordplay set to be in assonance with greek euangelion. But since euangelion in greek means Annunciation or "Good news" it would have been easy for the author of Qur'an to use the Arabic equivalent bashira instead, if it had been the real intention.
And indeed he heavily uses the word "bashira", including in the stories of Mariam, Zacharia, Isa.So the true intention behind the use of the word "Injeel" is that Injeel means new scion.
A lot of characters in Qur'an Abraham, Lot, Mariam, Isa, Moses, etc. separate from their own people who spread corruption on the Land, and go the Lord. This is new scion, i.e. Injeel. So people of Injeel are people who spiritually separate from the others who spread corruption. - The Greek Logos, the Verb, as the active reason pervading and animating the universe.
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Noon waalqalami you don't understand so i'll explain 7927 say First Heaven + Lamps then Land; So according to this verse the earth comes after heaven.
In 419 Allah completes the 7 heavens in two days and puts the lamps into the lowest heaven. Before making the 7 heavens, the heaven is smoke. Allah tells the smoke and the earth come willingly then (FA is used and indicates immediate succession) turns the heaven into 7 heavens and put the lamps in the lowest. This means that when he created the earth (and it makes sense that it is created, because just before in the verse god created it and used thumma to link the sentences, and because you don't talk to things that don't exist), allah tells it and to the smoke heaven to come willingly. Thus earth was created before Heaven.
Let the gymnastics begin
-If you say earth was created after heaven, why Allah talks to the earth(why would not exist according to you) while heaven is smoke then(FA) turned to 7 heavens in two days. Is he speaking to void, only to create it 2 days after?Ju5, can you please stop posting disoriented thoughts/words not there and use below template?
Tell us after each verse what it says and highlight the specific words as was done in "red" below...
419 say do indeed you surely rejecting in the one creation the land in days two and thou making to him equals of such lord the worlds inhabitants
4110 and made therein firm peaks from above it and bless therein and decree therein sustenance its in quartet days equitable for those who ask
4111 thumma/furthermore (i.e. moreover, likewise, in addition, besides; used to introduce a fresh consideration and put emphasis about creation NOT then/afterwards!) establishes to the heaven and are smoke/hot gas so said to it and to the land come dual like of/willingly or dislike of/unwillingly said dual come we of obedient7927 is it you vigorous creation of or the heaven built it?
7928 raise roof its so fashioned it
7929 and darkened night its and brings out morning rise its
7930 and the land after such dahaha/laid out/spread it-Does allah make heaven and earth at the same time? Then why would he says otherwise in 7927?
where in 7927 -- does dahaha mean make/create it?
7930 and the land after such dahaha/laid out/spread it
thumma/moreover/likewise, etc., to give you another example...
229 he the one creation for you what in the land all of thumma/furthermore (i.e. moreover, likewise, in addition, besides; used to introduce a fresh consideration and put emphasis about creation NOT then/afterwards!) directed/turned to the heaven so fashion them seven heavens and he in each thing knower
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What are you playing at.
I know there is not the word injil where it speaks about glad tidings, but you, say that Gospel means that, glad tidings. So there you have YOUR gospel. On tghr other hand one of the values of injeel quoted ind ictionaries is happy news, glad tidings, good news, announcement of something good to ome, robable related to the basic emeaning of the word, to beget. When you beget you get news of a happy birth.
It takes blind faith to say the Gospel was a book, as you know it is a collection of books. the injil, may be whatever it may be, but the Qur'an does not say that it is a book.
Salaam
I'm imagining you behind your computer, laughing as you are mocking me and posting crap on purpose to see how i'll react. of course i hope i am wrong, if so i ask you to forgive me for my offense but,
-you say that injil is about glad tidings/ good news, this is exactly the meaning of "gospel".
-it has been given to jesus, the protagonist of the gospels
-the word used for book can mean book and does most of the time in the qur"an
-the people of the book were supposed to uphold its law,
-they could find muhammads name written in it
-it is mentioned along the qur'an and torah, which are books
-there is an example about a seed that spreads offshoots in the gospel. If the gospel is immaterial, were people supposed to memorize it by heart, in order to know that in it is an example about a seed that spreads offshoots?
-Allah gave jesus the gospel(if not a book, he gave what? the good news?) Allah taught him the injil. (He taught him the good news? Which good news? That jesus was born to tell people the truth ? which truth? according to the qur'an, jewish people already knew about paradise and judgement? )
-everything indicates that the gospel is a book but you go against all odds because this doesn't fit your belief and make the extraordinary claim that the injil is not a book
-for 1400 years it is translated as book but of course the mighty classical arabic linguist huruf knows better than people that lived at the timeI dare you to find a word that kitab means like prescription or decreed that would fit all the verses. The challenge is that it must still make sense.
Im going to quote you. It takes blind faith to believe that the injil is not a book. Injil means good news. Gospel means good news. If the injil is the message of isa, which has been adulterated in the gospels, how you you uphold the law of a message told by a jewish 600 years ago ? Did they memorized all of it ? Did they memorize the name of the prophet and the example of the seed?
The injil. In this message about god and paradise not written in a book and adulterable by anyone orally, there is a light and guidance. O people of the message, judge by this message. In it is written decreed prescribed the name of the prophet and the example of the seed
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Ju5, can you please stop posting disoriented thoughts/words not there and use below template?
Tell us after each verse what it says and highlight the specific words as was done in "red" below...
where in 7927 -- does dahaha mean make/create it?
7930 and the land after such dahaha/laid out/spread it
thumma/moreover/likewise, etc., to give you another example...
229 he the one creation for you what in the land all of thumma/furthermore (i.e. moreover, likewise, in addition, besides; used to introduce a fresh consideration and put emphasis about creation NOT then/afterwards!) directed/turned to the heaven so fashion them seven heavens and he in each thing knower
ill answer tomorrow if i can but if you claim that the earth and heaven were created at the same time during two days and that after during four days the land was spread it would severely go against science but whatever
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ill answer tomorrow if i can but if you claim that the earth and heaven were created at the same time...
Ok be precise on words translating; remember they were "stitched" torn apart.
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