:: Why do you believe that alQuraan is sent down from Allah? ::

Mazhar

Quote
This is understandable as in your mind your opening premise is that the Quran is perfect and everybody else is wrong.
There is no evidence that will convince you until you are ready to accept that such evidence can exist.

To my knowledge, I have never said Quran is perfect.

What is meant by perfect

perfect
adjective

without faults without errors, flaws, or faults
in perfect condition
complete and whole complete and lacking nothing essential
excellent or ideal excellent or ideal in every way
That's the perfect word to describe him.
especially suitable having all the necessary or typical characteristics required for a given situation
the perfect candidate for the job
skilled very proficient, skilled, or talented in a particular area
a perfect host
utter or absolute used to emphasize the extent or degree of something
a perfect nuisance
perfect happiness
exact as reproduction exactly reproducing an original
a perfect likeness
botany with stamens and pistils together describes a flower that has functional stamens and pistils in the same flower
mathematics exactly divisible exactly divisible into equal roots
grammar with verb action finished describes a verb or verb aspect for an action that is brought to a close
music of musical intervals describes the differences in pitch between the fourth, the fifth, and the octave, common to both major and minor scales
fungi with sexual and asexual reproduction describes a fungus that reproduces both sexually and asexually during its life cycle
insects sexually mature describes an insect that is sexually mature and completely differentiated

transitive verb (past and past participle per?fect?ed, present participle per?fect?ing, 3rd person present singular per?fects)

bring something to completion to make something as good as possible, or bring something to completion
They perfected the process last year.
printing finish page to complete a printed page by printing its reverse side

In Arabic it can be expressed by one word which is the epithet for Qur'an.

The Infallible Doctrine - Discourse of Reality

The fundamental characteristics that render and earn for a book the title of great book include; validity and reliability of its contents. In timeline, we are always surrounded by information and to know which source to trust is not always an easy proposition. The ability to evaluate the credibility of information is the most important skill for success. Validity and reliability of a book is the primary and the foremost concern of a critical reader and searcher for the truth. Except Grand Qur?n, presently no book in its body has addressed such concerns of a reader. The parameters, criteria for evaluating the validity and reliability of a book is that its contents must be absolutely void of psychologically disconcerting suspicious, conjectural, whimsical, conflicting, un-certain, illusory, unsubstantiated, biased and opinionated matter. These features grant a book the credentials of infinite validity and reliability. Conversely, we can say that only such book can be credited as valid and reliable which has in its miscellany nothing but infallible truths whose veracity can stand the accuracy test in timeline. In Arabic, this fact about the book is rendered in succinct and explicit manner by the epithet

That revelation Qur?n is the Infallible Doctrine-Discourse;

http//haqeeqat.pk/Infallible%20Alhaqqo.htm

amin

Everything is his plan, Goodness only comes from him, even if it looks bad for us. The book could be the inspiration from Mohammed, I dont firmly believe this or anything said by someone to be 100% true, thats my makeup of God, With Quran i only see the underlying messages and not any rules or regulations to be followed, the messages are simple, someone can compile it as a list of these message within a maximum 10 points and thats the Quran i get and not the total book, some of these,

Theres one God, there are Malaikahs, there are Jinns, there are beings including humans.
Believe in Him only and everything goes as per His plan.
Doing good, performing Salat, it doesnt matter what label or attire you wear everyone will have their questioning and reward in the end.
He is ever sacred for us in this world and one who claims i found him in so and so forms or places is doing shirk and are ignorant. The places or direction we fall should all be to that masjid.
Balance oneself in life with Salat, fasting, Zakat as excess is never good theres no fixed ways.
and etc..

reel

Salaamun Reel,

Oh I thank you for writing it here.

Salaam. You're welcome. )

Yes God does guide us but only through alQuraan?

As we know, mindfulness,studying of the world, etc are also mentioned. One example

Do not you see that Allah has subjected to you whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth and amply bestowed upon you His Bounties apparent and hidden? But of the people who disputes about Allah without knowledge, and not guidance and not a book enlightening. 3120

I strongly believe from my experience that Quran as guidance opens door to other forms of guidance also.

God does not needed any medium to guide His creation. Right? Then why this book?

As we know, he does not just guide, but also rewards. The Book has been called mercy and benefit for the mankind yay

God gives us the instructions on how to get them.

There is no compulsion in the religion. Surely has become distinct the right from the wrong. Then whoever disbelieves in false deities and believes in Allah, then surely he grasped the handhold firm, which not (will) break. And Allah (is) All-Hearing, All-Knowing. 2256

And He answers those who believe and do righteous deeds and increases for them from His Bounty. And the disbelievers - for them (will be) a punishment severe.4226

Just letting you know my view on the idea of believing in God has changed. The mainstream version does not make sense to me anymore. Typically, the people translate believing in God as believing that he exists. From practical point of view, this is bizarre. I mean how can I believe in someone without hearing what they want to tell me? I have to give God a chance and that is possible through Quran. I do what he says and then see the consequence which accompany those instructions of his.

Not once, I saw anything like this back in the days of ignorance...I mean when I was still a sunni. I believed in God in the way they translate it and struggled in life.

Not many old members on this forum give personal details about the experience of following Quran(maybe out of humility) . However, certain posts definitely have them and they strangely match mine.

alQuraan is not protected it has many versions.
Hafs and Warsh are two major versions.

Someone here once compared the differences between the two. He has been studying them for apparently 20 years. I have to look for the thread. But I do remember that he debunked the claims made in the article which Quran? Hafs contains the anti corruption bell.

Besides this I have a alQuraan in which it has 26 differences from the book we have today.
This alQuraan was given to my friend when he completed his a'alim degree.

Bro, are you in Pakistan?

burhan

No. At best, what you provided was indirect evidence.

That's your subjective opinion. It's ironic that you are demanding a very limited form of evidence which you know in advance doesn't exist. You use it's absence to ignore all other evidences then falsely accuse me of not providing any evidence.

It's ironic because this is what people demanded of Prophets (i.e Angles come down from heaven with treasures as the only acceptable evidence) and refused to accept any other form of evidence.
Very unquranic of you.

better use of language = only one interpretation is possible ? Let us know when you find such a book in the world.

I agree. That's why the whole idea of one-time Prophets and eternal Holy books is flawed.

False analogy. The fact that you said "right" tells us everything we need to know about the reasoning you're using. Please see http//www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

burhan many people are reading this Quran and doing bad stuff, I conclude Quran is at fault
wakas there can be no other reason?
burhan no, Quran is at fault
wakas have most Muslims read Quran (in a language they understand)?
burhan probably not, but Quran is at fault though
wakas but aren't most interpreting Quran using external sources?
burhan maybe but Quran is still at fault
wakas are they following the methodology endorsed by Quran to arrive at an interpretation?
burhan I dunno about that, but Quran is still at fault
wakas what about those who read/follow Quran and do many good things and are good human beings?
burhan erm, well, exceptions to the rule, most who follow Quran do bad so its still at fault
wakas but didn't we establish most have not read Quran?
burhan maybe but those who do are majority bad, so Quran at fault
wakas evidence for that statement?
burhan just my observation/experience
wakas subjective?
burhan well, fact in my view
wakas how can you be sure you're not committing a confusing cause effect logical fallacy and/or hasty generalisation logical fallacy?
burhan you ask too many questions, Quran is at fault, it's simpler that way
wakas each to their own i guess, peace out

Strawman. Usually people are subtle in strawmanning someone but you wrote out an entire script of things I haven't said. Condescending to say the least.

The_Sardar

I agree. That's why the whole idea of one-time Prophets and eternal Holy books is flawed.

Bold How exactly?

Wakas

That's your subjective opinion. It's ironic that you are demanding a very limited form of evidence which you know in advance doesn't exist. You use it's absence to ignore all other evidences then falsely accuse me of not providing any evidence.

Thanks for tacitly admitting what I accused you of (you have no direct evidence, at best only indirect). See bold words above.

I agree.

Thanks for tacitly admitting to an "impossible standard" fallacy. For those that don't know, this is when someone makes an argument against X, but it's not possible for X to pass their self-made criteria. There is not a book in the entire world wherein only one interpretation is possible and burhan knows it. In fact, such a book would defy logic, as it would have to be interpreted by imperfect human beings (ergo imperfect interpretation) who would never all arrive at the same conclusion. It seems this concept is lost on some people. I would imagine if God is author of Quran they would have thought of this and put in measures to counter this, that's the smart move.

Strawman. Usually people are subtle in strawmanning someone but you wrote out an entire script of things I haven't said. Condescending to say the least.

Technically, it is a strawman, but it wont be as soon as you answer the questions I pose in the script

But I imagine you will ignore them and run away.

huruf

Everything is from God, even Shaytaan is from God. The question is whether the Qur'an lies as it speaks of itself or whether it is truthful as it speaks of itself.

And wht any person thinks of it is the result of her own beliefs. The things God speaks about in Qur'an address human experience. Not everybody takes whatever regards his o r her own experience in the same way and disposition.

At any rate, nobody can derive from someone else's opinion any law as to the truth or lack of it of anything at all. It will be his or her own experience and his or her own commitmment to truth to him or herslef what will determine what it takes for truth or not.

Objectivity in this case is nonsense. Any objectivity that can be questionned by somebody else according to his or her experience, is no more objective than whatever anybody else can say. The truth is a personal truth or is some flying object outside our power or knowledge, that is a belief.

Many people, I included turst the Qur'an out of personal experience, just as other people distrust the Qur'an out of personal experience.

The question is not who is right but whose loss it is.

If I get well nourished with a particular diet, that diet is not my loss, if the same diet does nothing, for whatever reason, for somebody else, that idet is his loss.

That people come to other people telling them that the diet they are following is wrong that they are not happy with it, that it does this or that, does not make much sense. It is like telling them, since I cannot eat carrots because I vomit you should not eat carrots without vomiting. Redeeming other people may give some satisfaction which makes the redemption of others worth pursuing, but for those who do not want to be redeemed of anything it is just a bizarre thing to do.

Salaam

reel

Very unquranic of you.

It seems burhan you have not paid attention to who you are talking about....I mean the people whose idols Abraham broke. His papa already wanted him stoned because of his new belief system.

Abraham makes his intention of planning against the idols known to his father who instead of guarding them leaves. The people later confess their idol couldn't speak. Still they throw Abraham in fire. Do you believe people who don't even care about their own Gods, but hurt ego really experienced religion intolerance from Abraham?

Next, why would Abraham do something so desperate? Hint is in the conversation he had with with papa.

Abraham tells him that he was surrendering to devil.

Here is a bit about how devil's plan works

And I will mislead them, and I will arouse in them desires, and I will command them so they will slit the ears of cattle, and I will command them so they will change the creation of Allah." And whoever takes Satan as an ally instead of Allah has certainly sustained a clear loss.Satan promises them and arouses desire in them. But Satan does not promise them except delusion.4119-420

Study aghorism which according to hindus is hinduism in its purest form. Despite the fact that aghoris claim to worship shiva and other deities, going deeper into their system shows they are worshiping the devil. They don't just say that. The idols were the medium. Aliester Crowley, however, did not hesitate to reveal that he used this aghorism to worship satan.

You have to notice that your conclusion forms a paradox and this is how it looks

Abraham showed intolerance towards those who were intolerant towards other religions as well as mixed wrong doing with their own belief despite not caring for their own idols.

See

682 Those who believe and do not confound their belief with wrongdoing; they will have security, and they are guided.

God has no reason to condemn Abraham because the people around him already took up the job to do that by killing him. Only when Quran is followed, that becomes clear. God withdraws himself from those who play god. We also are told in the Quran that these people eventually became losers. That isn't a good news. God even rejects Abraham's prayer for his father. That can only happen to those who do horrible things and play dumb, and that is also with full ego.

You did not question why death is the punishment for breaking an idol. Which sane people do that?

I respect that a few of you have a different view out of billions of Muslims. But a book that guides one and misguides billions does need to be questioned..

Copy what I gave below. Show it to those Muslims and ask them why they read Quran like this if they are actually taking their guidance from the Book

?And we have given you (O, Muhammad) your Sunna, that with it you may explain the verses that are already clear (2118, 37, 4176, 655, 6105, 6126, 911, 111, 2949), so that Muslims will not have to study the Qur?an again, though We said that they should in 244, 2121, 482 and 379, that you may admonish those who interpret it themselves, though we gave them such a right in 542, 2368, 3446, 3829 and 6710, that they may claim to be illiterate in Arabic, though it is clear Arabic tongue (122, 1337, 144, 16103, 1997, 26195, 413, 4144, 427, 433, 4612), that you may admonish those who take the Message as a complete guidance, though We said that it was in 2159, 4174-175, 516, 752, 1057, 179, 1789, 1854, 2849, 346 and 4252, or a distinct explanation of all things as We ordained in 7145, 12111, 2533 and 444; that they may record your ahadith for everything, although they may not believe in any hadith besides this (456), for who is truer in hadith than Allah (487)? That you and others may be taken as Lord, against 379, that you may alter the Message though it contains the same system We revealed to other Prophets (426, 4213), although Allah does not change His Sunna (1777, 3543, 4823), that you may render it incomplete, though We completed it (53, 6115), that you may not judge by the Book as We revealed in 2176, 4105, 544, 548 and 6114, that you may impose on them teachings We told them to disbelieve (223, 1113, 5234), that you may prohibit what Allah has not prohibited (587, 6145-146, 732) that you may be more than a plain warner, though your only duty is to give a plain warning (562, 599, 619, 651, 72, 7184, 1635, 1827, 1997, 20113, 2454, 3523, 3870, 427), that you may follow a path other than the right one (2170, 650, 6106, 6126, 6153-6157, 73, 7203, 1936, 2556-57, 346) that they may accept religion based on their opinions of people (1035-37), believing in Abu Huraira as well as what we ordained in 4136, and justify it with obvious distortions (4730) and flowery, frivolous ahadith (6112, 316), that they may worship as the Jahiliyyah (English barbarity) (4321-22), that they may play the majority game (6116, 12106) and deny (623). Indeed, Allah is Knowing, Wise.? (9130)

Ask them to debunk it. I am yet to find a sectarian who did that. I would warn you against the exhaustion though. I got myself in trouble because they thought those fake verses were actually in the Quran o

burhan

But I imagine you will ignore them and run away.

Burhan Trump killed Putin
Wakas Do you have a written confession from Trump?
Burhan No but we have eye witness testimony.
Wakas I need evidence. Do you have a written confession from Trump?
Burhan We also have motive a motive. Putin had a dossier on Trump. We also found the murder weapon with Trump's prints on it.
Wakas You are running away. You have not provided any evidence that Trump is guilty.
Burhan We don't have a confession ...
Wakas Haha you admit you have no evidence.
Burhan -- runs away --

Wakas

Nice try burhan.... but another failed false analogy

https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_evidence

Direct evidence supports the truth of an assertion (in criminal law, an assertion of guilt or of innocence) directly, i.e., without an intervening inference. ... For example a witness who testifies that he saw the defendant shoot the victim gives direct evidence.

A witness testimony is direct evidence. You never provided direct evidence (and you tacitly admitted it). Ergo, false analogy.

But you got one thing right

Burhan -- runs away --

Jafar

Abraham makes his intention of planning against the idols known to his father who instead of guarding them leaves. The people later confess their idol couldn't speak. Still they throw Abraham in fire. Do you believe people who don't even care about their own Gods, but hurt ego really experienced religion intolerance from Abraham?

Abraham was trying to expose a fraud commonly believed by his own society.

Similar to what this dude named John Oliver tried to do.
Exposing the fraud of Televangelist.

Televangelists Last Week Tonight with John Oliver
https//youtu.be/7y1xJAVZxXg

Mr. John Oliver deed will match the level of difficulty that Abraham faced if these conditions are met

Oliver's own dad is a televangelist himself which fraud he exposed on public TV.
The US government is in a form of Absolute Monarchy, and the Emperor / Monarch supported and enforced the religion propagated by televangelists.
The act of Mr. Oliver, airing a 'blasphemy to God' on public television is punishable by death through burning at the stake; in accordance to US Criminal Law which in itself a Divine law sent down by God in a form of a tablet. (thus even the act of questioning or trying to change the law is also punishable by death).

javed1

It seems burhan you have not paid attention to who you are talking about....I mean the people whose idols Abraham broke. His papa already wanted him stoned because of his new belief system.

Abraham makes his intention of planning against the idols known to his father who instead of guarding them leaves. The people later confess their idol couldn't speak. Still they throw Abraham in fire. Do you believe people who don't even care about their own Gods, but hurt ego really experienced religion intolerance from Abraham?

Next, why would Abraham do something so desperate? Hint is in the conversation he had with with papa.

Abraham tells him that he was surrendering to devil.

Here is a bit about how devil's plan works

And I will mislead them, and I will arouse in them desires, and I will command them so they will slit the ears of cattle, and I will command them so they will change the creation of Allah." And whoever takes Satan as an ally instead of Allah has certainly sustained a clear loss.Satan promises them and arouses desire in them. But Satan does not promise them except delusion.4119-420

Study aghorism which according to hindus is hinduism in its purest form. Despite the fact that aghoris claim to worship shiva and other deities, going deeper into their system shows they are worshiping the devil. They don't just say that. The idols were the medium. Aliester Crowley, however, did not hesitate to reveal that he used this aghorism to worship satan.

You have to notice that your conclusion forms a paradox and this is how it looks

Abraham showed intolerance towards those who were intolerant towards other religions as well as mixed wrong doing with their own belief despite not caring for their own idols.

See

682 Those who believe and do not confound their belief with wrongdoing; they will have security, and they are guided.

God has no reason to condemn Abraham because the people around him already took up the job to do that by killing him. Only when Quran is followed, that becomes clear. God withdraws himself from those who play god. We also are told in the Quran that these people eventually became losers. That isn't a good news. God even rejects Abraham's prayer for his father. That can only happen to those who do horrible things and play dumb, and that is also with full ego.

You did not question why death is the punishment for breaking an idol. Which sane people do that?

Copy what I gave below. Show it to those Muslims and ask them why they read Quran like this if they are actually taking their guidance from the Book

?And we have given you (O, Muhammad) your Sunna, that with it you may explain the verses that are already clear (2118, 37, 4176, 655, 6105, 6126, 911, 111, 2949), so that Muslims will not have to study the Qur?an again, though We said that they should in 244, 2121, 482 and 379, that you may admonish those who interpret it themselves, though we gave them such a right in 542, 2368, 3446, 3829 and 6710, that they may claim to be illiterate in Arabic, though it is clear Arabic tongue (122, 1337, 144, 16103, 1997, 26195, 413, 4144, 427, 433, 4612), that you may admonish those who take the Message as a complete guidance, though We said that it was in 2159, 4174-175, 516, 752, 1057, 179, 1789, 1854, 2849, 346 and 4252, or a distinct explanation of all things as We ordained in 7145, 12111, 2533 and 444; that they may record your ahadith for everything, although they may not believe in any hadith besides this (456), for who is truer in hadith than Allah (487)? That you and others may be taken as Lord, against 379, that you may alter the Message though it contains the same system We revealed to other Prophets (426, 4213), although Allah does not change His Sunna (1777, 3543, 4823), that you may render it incomplete, though We completed it (53, 6115), that you may not judge by the Book as We revealed in 2176, 4105, 544, 548 and 6114, that you may impose on them teachings We told them to disbelieve (223, 1113, 5234), that you may prohibit what Allah has not prohibited (587, 6145-146, 732) that you may be more than a plain warner, though your only duty is to give a plain warning (562, 599, 619, 651, 72, 7184, 1635, 1827, 1997, 20113, 2454, 3523, 3870, 427), that you may follow a path other than the right one (2170, 650, 6106, 6126, 6153-6157, 73, 7203, 1936, 2556-57, 346) that they may accept religion based on their opinions of people (1035-37), believing in Abu Huraira as well as what we ordained in 4136, and justify it with obvious distortions (4730) and flowery, frivolous ahadith (6112, 316), that they may worship as the Jahiliyyah (English barbarity) (4321-22), that they may play the majority game (6116, 12106) and deny (623). Indeed, Allah is Knowing, Wise.? (9130)

Ask them to debunk it. I am yet to find a sectarian who did that. I would warn you against the exhaustion though. I got myself in trouble because they thought those fake verses were actually in the Quran

Thats an amazing last paragraph.One for keeps.Looks you were on an emotional high.With all those references.Superb.

burhan

It seems burhan you have not paid attention to who you are talking about....I mean the people whose idols Abraham broke. His papa already wanted him stoned because of his new belief system.

Abraham makes his intention of planning against the idols known to his father who instead of guarding them leaves. The people later confess their idol couldn't speak. Still they throw Abraham in fire. Do you believe people who don't even care about their own Gods, but hurt ego really experienced religion intolerance from Abraham?

Reel,

3 sides to every story

As a believer, you are reading the Abraham story with a bias. You believe in God, Prophets, Angels, Satan etc on faith. Abraham is the good guy and you accept that on faith also. That?s fine, every faithful does that, it?s just something you need to be aware of.

We are never given an objective version of events in the Quran for anything. How do you think Abraham?s father would tell the same story. Just as a fun experiment try writing a paragraph to yourself from his point of view.

How would an objective observer tell the same story? Perhaps, you are assuming God is the objective observer, but you have accepted that on faith alone.
If it is possible, I would like you to suspend your assumptions and re-read the story, critically.

Is polytheism evil. Where is the evidence?

We are given very little information about Abraham?s community but lets examine for what crime they are the bad guys.

Their crime is only that they worship idols. What?s wrong with that? Are we saying that a polytheist is inherently bad and a monotheist inherently good? Real life tells us that it makes no difference what your religious beliefs are. Polytheist communities have faired just as well as monotheist. If there was no Mohammed would the middle east have been worse off. The Quran offers no objective evidence that monotheism is better than polytheism.

Of course, certain practices can be bad within religions. E.g. child sacrifice, slavery, circumcision etc. It would be right to challenge those directly, but Abraham makes no such case.

As Abraham is the good guy the author isn?t going to say something about him that would make him look bad. However, the author only has his moral compass to decide what is good/bad. We all have different views of God, life etc and through a lot of bloodshed we have come to the conclusion that secularism is the only way for all of us to live together in peace. Abraham is not willing to make such a compromise.

Abraham had every right to share his views about God, but he had no right threaten his community. 2157. His father threatened him with punishment but never carried it out, until Abraham crossed a line.

For example, right now I?m Abraham. I am challenging your beliefs, which I have the right to do. But I must follow the forum rules. I can?t threaten to hack this website in case you don?t change your beliefs.

If I did cross that line, you?d have every right to take action against me.

We are a bit more civil these days, so thankfully no stoning or fire for me. But you could ban me, or report me to authorities if I hacked FM. Now if my Quran made you out to be the bad guy, you?d be pretty upset.

The problem isn't restricted to Abraham. The central message of the Quran is that anything other than monotheism (as laid out in the Quran) is false, and therefore inherently evil and it followers eternally condemned.

Copy what I gave below

I have been a Quranist for 25 years. I'm responsible for promoting many of the apologetic interpretations. It's funny when people quote them back to me. Karma.

burhan

Bold How exactly?

Whenever a Prophet arrives he divides a community in two. He creates an in-group and out-group. He turns brother against brother.
He is like George Bush, you are either with him or against him.

Watch this. and Part two.
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=opx8iDvR_nU

Fear prophets, Adso, and those prepared to die for the truth, for as a rule they make many others die with them, often before them, at times instead of them.

Umberto Eco, The Name of the Rose

javed1

Peace.Are you an agnostic or atheist now brother Burhan.

javed1

Peace.Polythism is not bad because it because of how they fare in this world but because it is not the truth.There is only one supreme power.

imrankhawaja

Whenever a Prophet arrives he divides a community in two. He creates an in-group and out-group. He turns brother against brother.
He is like George Bush, you are either with him or against him.

hmm although i read ur posts i can see where you coming from

lets solve this first , whenever a prophet arrives the purpose is to gather the community to the deafault system(deen) of peace ..

need of prophet was very important , when he arrives its already lot of division is going on the purpose of prophet is to make them to one nation which is recommended by the universal creator on the basis of truth regardless of any race religion or label..

a prophet is not any CLASS.. its the chosen human by universal creator ..
same like he choose who will become the good PLAYER, SINGER, ACTOR, CHEF and so on.. ( on other words who can handle the responsibilty given to him/her)

we are in a system and quran and all other things are signs to the originator of everything ...
some signs are dim or broken , some signs are still developing and some are already there but not in our reach ..

if anyone sunni/quranist is teating quran as idol then its not different than the system of abraham time so its time to advance our brains and intellect

I have been a Quranist for 25 years. I'm responsible for promoting many of the apologetic interpretations. It's funny when people quote them back to me. Karma.

lol karma ..

okto be honest when i was sunni i always had a fear not to question about the validity of claims inside that.. (it was difficult)
one day i was searching something and i found this site .. but as much i study this site the feeling get more stronger that i was following a wrong direction from last many years of my life ... at the same point when i share these findings with fellow humans who use to solve math problems with me they refuse to accept that .. anyway what matter to me was my own self so when i finally satisfied in my heart i stop doing and beleiving the things and ritual i inherited from my race..

at that point i had a fear that some day i will gona disbeleive on this thing ...
i see people who turn from their default faith, they keep going untill they ending up becoming athiest..

sunni then quran alone then God alone then agnostic , in some cases athiest..

but after athiest why a stop (... there is something wrong with the nature of person not with the nature of nature)

everybody have their goals and if God is all controlling then everybody is exactly doing what they suppose to do ..

things already planned /set by a planner

about the text we know as Quran , it got some challanges to the reader and audience, when i see any human/jinn already produced a chapter like this then at that time i can say that the challange is been done so need to beleive this book been sent by the lord of worlds.. right now the victory is fully in the favor of this text whereever that text comes from dosent matter to me as long i can see what it claims and thats only one thing..

i would like you to share your experience what makes u think like that although i found it hard to discard that text on the basis of challange which is never accomplished yet by any being..

God bless you

The_Sardar

Whenever a Prophet arrives he divides a community in two. He creates an in-group and out-group. He turns brother against brother.
He is like George Bush, you are either with him or against him.

Divides? I am sorry but how exactly does he divide the community when that community had a history bad misdeeds. Plus he doesn't force you, i never seen a verse saying that the prophet must cause a inner community conflict.

Jafar

If it is possible, I would like you to suspend your assumptions and re-read the story, critically.

A very good suggestions.. there are actually unlimited viewpoints of every story.

Is polytheism evil. Where is the evidence?

We are given very little information about Abraham?s community but lets examine for what crime they are the bad guys.

Their crime is only that they worship idols. What?s wrong with that? Are we saying that a polytheist is inherently bad and a monotheist inherently good? Real life tells us that it makes no difference what your religious beliefs are. Polytheist communities have faired just as well as monotheist. If there was no Mohammed would the middle east have been worse off. The Quran offers no objective evidence that monotheism is better than polytheism.

Marduk, a deity referred as worshiped by Abraham's society gives us a clue of the cultural context that he was living in. Today's there has been many research performed to uncover the entire ancient Mesopotamian civilization and tradition. Thus we have a good understanding of the civilization. The fact that they are very literative culture really helps out. They wrote nearly everything on a piece of clay tablet, where many of those still survives today.

Polytheist (or monotheist) by itself is not necessarily evil or good.
This is similar to Capitalist (or Communist) by itself is not necessarily evil or good.

I find the entire notion that the true God is jealous of the other gods to be ridiculous.
Given the true God is all powerful and the entire sequence of events on this entire universe happened in accordance to His will and plan, otherwise it will never happened at all.

Yet most certainly, such label has been used to justify the 'evilness' of their respective rivals.
Example Labelling the west as capitalist by the soviet thus justify the hatred and enmity. Labeling the soviets as communist by the american to justify the hatred and enmity.

Good and Evil both exist within Polytheist and Monotheist. (or Communist and Capitalist)

A very good example of evil monotheist is ISIS of today.
Performing similar atrocities performed by polytheists at the same place (Mesopotamia) 4000 years ago.

Of course, certain practices can be bad within religions. E.g. child sacrifice, slavery, circumcision etc. It would be right to challenge those directly, but Abraham makes no such case.

Human sacrifice, murder, torture performed by whomever (Polytheist, Monotheist, Capitalist, Communist) is certainly evil.

But Abraham did nearly murdered his own son..
Perhaps surrounded by insanity of religion around him as human sacrifice was a common religious practice performed by Canaanites people.

As Abraham is the good guy the author isn?t going to say something about him that would make him look bad. However, the author only has his moral compass to decide what is good/bad. We all have different views of God, life etc and through a lot of bloodshed we have come to the conclusion that secularism is the only way for all of us to live together in peace. Abraham is not willing to make such a compromise.

Perhaps he did..
The secular judgement of Abraham's crime is that he was found guilty of destroying other people's property. He need to pay reparation damage to other people property's being destroyed.

Abraham had every right to share his views about God, but he had no right threaten his community. 2157. His father threatened him with punishment but never carried it out, until Abraham crossed a line.

Believe and opinion is not a crime.
It is Abraham's right to not believe in whatever belief that his society is believing in.
And it's in other people's right to believe in whatever idol that they wanted...

We are a bit more civil these days, so thankfully no stoning or fire for me. But you could ban me, or report me to authorities if I hacked FM. Now if my Quran made you out to be the bad guy, you?d be pretty upset.

Some of us are, yet there are also some of us with mindset similar to Mesopotamia 4000 years ago.

I have been a Quranist for 25 years. I'm responsible for promoting many of the apologetic interpretations. It's funny when people quote them back to me. Karma.

Indeed... what goes around shall comes around..

good_logic

Peace Burhan.
Alow me to comment briefly , and as you are busy answering many you do not have to burden yourself answering me as well if you wish.

You seem to mention good and bad in your post, have you looked critically at your definition of good and bad?
Are you sure your "good and bad" are the "good and bad" by everybody else s definition?
Do you remember ,when you said ,quote
You will come across many verses like that, and there is no need to fall into dispute over the meaning of certain words.

Tell Islam haters that the above verse only apply when the following conditions are met.

Killing a human being without self defence or justice is considered like killing all humanity (532).
Believers can only fight for self defence; no wars of aggression. No, pre-emptive strike based on speculations and lies (608-9).
The Quran gives permission to believers to fight against aggressors only (2239-40...).

A muslim is asked to follow to quran in complete not verse by verse.
And this,quote

It's funny that 19ers and freeminders and proggies are names one group gives another one. The are not names we give ourselves. Also they are based simply on what forum one vists. Am I 19er if I get involved in a discussion or project at 19.org?

Our goal is the same - to go forward in our understanding of Islam, God and ourselves.

Why do we all have to have the same view. What's up with this totalitarian attitude. Besides our view changes. That is what we are promoting - CHANGE! A change for the better. The freedom to REFLECT and CHANGE.

As said before we are competing. And if we get airtime we let the people know who the competitors are, and they should join in and compete aswell.

If anybody asks you where you stand in relation to other groups then tell them you are in competition. Who ever stops stoning or other injustices then that competitor is ahead.

Do be an ass and say "well you know the 19ers comitt shirk blah blah, and RK was .. "

You want to label yourself, tell them you are competitor in the greatest competition of them all.

"Be quick in the race for forgiveness from your Lord, and for a Garden whose width is that (of the whole) of the heavens and of the earth, prepared for the righteous,-"

See you at the finishing line!
Or this,quote
I think the main idea is to compete with each other. Not for the attention of people but for a place with God.

That is where we'll be united , and if you can't work together then you have already failed on the path of God alone.

The path of God alone has nothing to with Quran, 19 or anything else we endlessly debate about. Other creations follow the path without any of these things.

It is about absolute faith in God's widsom and his complete control over all things. It's about justice and doing what is right.

Don't let the forces of Satan know that you are divided, they will rip you apart and you'll only have yourselves to blame.

Debate among yourseleves by all means, but don't turn the debates in to divisions.

I think merging all forums into one is a good starting point.
etc...
Surely if you remember, you should also put yourself as you are now, in the shoes of some members here. May be in few years some of them will take your direction. Or in few years you will take another direction or even revert back to your old direction...?
Me, I agree with you on the last quote. We should race each other on good conduct and good morals( The ones that we all know by instinct).
Also for me, Qoran s main message is this basic and most important trait, taken as a whole of course.
GOD bless you.
Peace,