Qur'an Universe Model Is Geocentric
-
And the earth according to Qur'an is likely flat. I can see now why some orthodox scholars like Sheikh Abdul-Aziz Baaz never supported the heliocentric model of the universe.
Below are just a couple verses;
2761
Is not He (best) Who made the earth a fixed/resting abode(qararan), and placed rivers in the folds thereof, and placed firm hills therein, and hath set a barrier between the two seas? Is there any god beside Allah? Nay, but most of them know not!3638
And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise.3640
It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.The Qur'an several times repeats the sun and moon are in motion but never the earth. To me, this seem at first to be implying the monthly revolution of the moon about the earth and revolution of the sun about the center of the milky way Galaxy. I see a different picture now after looking deeper at the above verses and several more.
Since there is no mention of a moving earth, a fixed and immobile earth is implied when we read 2761. Given the Qur'an never specifies what the sun and moon orbit, it mean it does not oppose the prevailing knowledge of the time - the earth as the center of the lunar and solar orbits.
The sun and moon motion are often mentioned in context of day and night in the Qur'an. In Geocentric universe model, day and night is tied to revolution of the sun and moon about the earth.
Next, not only does the Qur'an speak of sun's motion, it speaks of the sun running to a "place/abode" for it(363. It seem the sun's orbit is a semi orbit with a point where the sun eventually come to a stop, at night. This is only conceivable in a geocentric model with a flat and immobile earth.
On a geocentric model, the sun and moon's orbit are concentric circles. This is implied in 3640. Because, to consider the sun not overtaking the moon, both objects have to move in the same direction and in orbits that are side to side like concentric circles.
-
SLM Neptin,
becarefull with flath earth here ) )
and what do you think about this verses ...
(Allah) said, "Get down some of you to some others (as) enemy. And for you in the earth (is) a dwelling place and livelihood for a time."
He said, "In it you will live and in it you will die and from it you will be brought forth." https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/7/25/i think no space travel either
-
Peace Neptin.
Hello brother. It depends on What is "Kararan" in the context of 2761? The "Kararan" is for us. I think in the context of what is being described and why, this makes sense to me
2760
Who is the One who created the heavens and the earth? Who is the One who sends down to you from the sky water, whereby we produce gardens full of beauty - you could not possibly manufacture its trees? Is it another god with God? Indeed, they are people who have deviated.2761
Who is the One who made the earth habitable, caused rivers to run through it, placed on it mountains, and created a barrier between the two waters? Is it another god with God? Indeed, most of them do not know.2762
Who is the One who rescues those who become desperate and call upon Him, relieves adversity, and makes you inheritors of the earth? Is it another god with God? Rarely do you take heed.I see the plants and water as the context of "Kararan" which means habitable here not fixed. I.e GOD made the earth habitable for us not fixed. Your Karar is your abode, where you live
GOD bless you
Peace. -
<yawn>
Seems to me your translations contain selectively chosen word meanings that suit your position, e.g.
Re 2761
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=qrr#(27614)Re 3638
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=qrr#(36383)Re 3640
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607169.msg364471#msg364471 -
Peace goodlogic and Wakas.
<yawn>
Seems to me your translations contain selectively chosen word meanings that suit your position, e.g.
Re 2761
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=qrr#(27614)Peace. I can't agree with corpus Qur'an. 'qararan' refer to a state of rest, for a physical object. A revolving and rotating object like earth cannot be 'qararan'.
Re 3638
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=qrr#(36383)Same as above. See how the likes of Pickthall translated the verse.
Re 3640
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607169.msg364471#msg364471I partly agree here.
-
Salaam,
...
3638
And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise.
...
Next, not only does the Qur'an speak of sun's motion, it speaks of the sun running to a "place/abode" for it(363. It seem the sun's orbit is a semi orbit with a point where the sun eventually come to a stop, at night. This is only conceivable in a geocentric model with a flat and immobile earth.
This could refer to the Solar Apex.
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_apexAllah knows best.
-
It seem to state human come from outside the earth - space. Like Adam and Eve arrived like aliens to earth. What do you think?
Slm neptin,
what do you think about verses 724-25
i see this verses like , you gonna be born on THIS WORLD, after living you gonna die on THIS WORLD , and after dead the resurrection on THIS WORLD ---> all on earth .... no space travel orso,
genesis
Gen 16 God said, ?Let there be a firmament in the midst of the water, that it may separate water from water.? 17 God made the firmament, and it separated the water which was below the firmament from the water which was above the firmament. And it was so. 18 God called the firmament Sky?i think the dome-wall is some kind of water-wall, thats why ( i think) the sky is blue .....
https//youtu.be/iKk4UCTIqRg?t=81 ... the rocket hits the wall , yet rocket doesnt explode or brake in half orso ....
-
Is there a reason why the Qur'an should address all people, of all degrees of instructio, of all ages and learning as if they were all consumate astronomists?
All the nitpicking as to the words used int he Qur'an in order to adress ALL PEOPLE regarding perceivable phenomena to remind them to bear in mind the wondrowsness of all that exists seems to me as whims of spoilt children like the princess who noticed the pea under the mattress.
The Qur'an is no astronomy textbook. It is a guide for people who want to follow the straight an upward path.
What would be conclusive in proving the Qur'an wrong would be to find an unequivocal assertion that the moon and the sun turn around the earth or that the earth does not turn around anything else and does not move in space.
Thos qaraar and those other things, he earth as qaraar is absolutely irreproachable. Regardless of what it does in th solar system and the constellation, it is absolutely a qaraar for people and all that lives and exists within its atmosphere and on its surface and waters. That is undisputable.
As to the mustaqarr part, please, those who find it wrong, can they come up with a better word to describe what the sun does? Fixed? It is fixed, if it were not fixed then the sun would run one day here another day would go to another constelation just to have some fun, next day she would try something else and would open a track in between the orbits of the planets. That would not be fixed. But what it does, running always the same tract is fixed. Same as when we go to work and work everyday in the same place we take the same transport take the same traject. We take a fixed course.
But, of course, as the great and splendid astronomers we all are, we ant to be addressed by any guide on behaviour for mankind with proper words that ony can understand the astronomers of the XXIth century. Who knows may be for the XXX century it would be old and the concpets and nomenclature may have changed and then the guide for mankind would again be wrong.
We are such a bunch of excellent and allknowing people we deserve nothing but the most scientifically up to date nomenclature in all domains best from God or anybody who attempts to address us and be taken seriously.
Salaam
-
Peace GUYS,
3638 And the sun runs to a specific destination, such is the design of the Noble, the Knowledgeable.
instead of RUN if we use FLOW it will give more accurate interpretation by cross checking of quran this FLOW word used more than RUN. anyway both are somehow synonyms.
i just want to share a recent discovery about a NEW mysterious phenomenon called ?DARK FLOW? something interesting to see there is a mysterious flow that attracting everything towards it. after ?dark matter? and ?dark energy? we now have ?DARK FLOW?.
may b verse 36 38 is hinting towards it.
infact Quran never claimed earth is at REST.
-
This could refer to the Solar Apex.
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_apexAllah knows best.
Peace.
It could. But the context of the verse is day and night circle and I can't see how solar apex have anything to do with that.
peace Neptin,
Rather than baseless claims, please prove to us the meanings you chose are the most accurate/evidenced/logical/cross-referenced meanings for the words in question.
Then we can see the credibility of your claims.
Peace.
I have referenced other translations like Pickthall, also see Sahih International on 3638. As even you can see from the corpus Qur'an page you cited, "Mustaqarr" is used in all other verses of the Qur'an to mean dwelling place, except in 667 where the context is not a physical object.
As for qararan, in 2761, we can debate all we want about this meaning the earth is fixed or not fixed, but don't you find it puzzling that the Qur'an never for once implied the earth is in motion, whereas it reiterates the sun is in motion, supposedly round the center of the milky way galaxy?
Is there a reason why the Qur'an should address all people, of all degrees of instructio, of all ages and learning as if they were all consumate astronomists?
All the nitpicking as to the words used int he Qur'an in order to adress ALL PEOPLE regarding perceivable phenomena to remind them to bear in mind the wondrowsness of all that exists seems to me as whims of spoilt children like the princess who noticed the pea under the mattress.
The Qur'an is no astronomy textbook. It is a guide for people who want to follow the straight an upward path.
What would be conclusive in proving the Qur'an wrong would be to find an unequivocal assertion that the moon and the sun turn around the earth or that the earth does not turn around anything else and does not move in space.
Thos qaraar and those other things, he earth as qaraar is absolutely irreproachable. Regardless of what it does in th solar system and the constellation, it is absolutely a qaraar for people and all that lives and exists within its atmosphere and on its surface and waters. That is undisputable.
As to the mustaqarr part, please, those who find it wrong, can they come up with a better word to describe what the sun does? Fixed? It is fixed, if it were not fixed then the sun would run one day here another day would go to another constelation just to have some fun, next day she would try something else and would open a track in between the orbits of the planets. That would not be fixed. But what it does, running always the same tract is fixed. Same as when we go to work and work everyday in the same place we take the same transport take the same traject. We take a fixed course.
But, of course, as the great and splendid astronomers we all are, we ant to be addressed by any guide on behaviour for mankind with proper words that ony can understand the astronomers of the XXIth century. Who knows may be for the XXX century it would be old and the concpets and nomenclature may have changed and then the guide for mankind would again be wrong.
We are such a bunch of excellent and allknowing people we deserve nothing but the most scientifically up to date nomenclature in all domains best from God or anybody who attempts to address us and be taken seriously.
Salaam
I'm not here to prove the Qur'an wrong. I'm trying to prove that a Geocentric universe model is what the Qur'an confirms. Is a geocentric universe model wrong and disprove the Qur'an? I really can't say, all I know about the universe is what I read, not what I have witnessed.
Now, as for 'qarara' and 'mustaqqar' of 2761 and 3638, I've left my words in reply to to Wakas above.
Peace GUYS,
3638 And the sun runs to a specific destination, such is the design of the Noble, the Knowledgeable.
instead of RUN if we use FLOW it will give more accurate interpretation by cross checking of quran this FLOW word used more than RUN. anyway both are somehow synonyms.
i just want to share a recent discovery about a NEW mysterious phenomenon called ?DARK FLOW? something interesting to see there is a mysterious flow that attracting everything towards it. after ?dark matter? and ?dark energy? we now have ?DARK FLOW?.
may b verse 36 38 is hinting towards it.
infact Quran never claimed earth is at REST.
I agree with what you have written except the part on Dark Flow. Qur'an should be clear to the primary audience, the early Arabs. This idea that Qur'an reveals scientific facts neither discerned, understandable or verifiable by the Arabs until now is problematic. This is why I beg to differ with those who claim Qur'an's mention of solar orbit refers to the its orbit around the center of the milky way galaxy.
-
Peace.
It could. But the context of the verse is day and night circle and I can't see how solar apex have anything to do with that.
Peace.
I have referenced other translations like Pickthall, also see Sahih International on 3638. As even you can see from the corpus Qur'an page you cited, "Mustaqarr" is used in all other verses of the Qur'an to mean dwelling place, except in 667 where the context is not a physical object.
As for qararan, in 2761, we can debate all we want about this meaning the earth is fixed or not fixed, but don't you find it puzzling that the Qur'an never for once implied the earth is in motion, whereas it reiterates the sun is in motion, supposedly round the center of the milky way galaxy?
I'm not here to prove the Qur'an wrong. I'm trying to prove that a Geocentric universe model is what the Qur'an confirms. Is a geocentric universe model wrong and disprove the Qur'an? I really can't say, all I know about the universe is what I read, not what I have witnessed.
Now, as for 'qarara' and 'mustaqqar' of 2761 and 3638, I've left my words in reply to to Wakas above.
I agree with what you have written except the part on Dark Flow. Qur'an should be clear to the primary audience, the early Arabs. This idea that Qur'an reveals scientific facts neither discerned, understandable or verifiable by the Arabs until now is problematic. This is why I beg to differ with those who claim Qur'an's mention of solar orbit refers to the its orbit around the center of the milky way galaxy.
Does the Qur'an say that the earth is stationnary with respect to other bodies? Please quote.
By all means should the Qur'an uphold this or that astronomical view? whY?
Qur'an says what it has to say to people of any time concenring that which they can see and reason by themselves, in the sixth century in the twentieth or in the thousandth.
That is very consistent with the call of the Qur'an to all people to reason by themselves and to judge nd ponder on everything.
Why do you have to adscribe to it any particular "universal" conception on this or that? What is the reason or need for that.
The Qur'an does not present itself in as a textbook for anything, neither for cooking or knitting or horse mounting or anything. Speaks to the people as is.On the other hand scientific theories on anything change fast, not like human perception which is more or less the same now as 5 thousand years ago. If a certain scientific theory was obviously upheld in any book it would age very quickly and would unsettle the reader conmensurately all the time except for the time when it came out.
On the other hand if it deals with questions inherently important to humans at any time, it does not age.
So hte important point is not to try by all means to extract a scientific opinion from the Qur'an but to understand what it is about. The best that could be asked from it would be that it does not err, and nothing that has bene stated here inthis thread or in other threads or writings that I know off prove the Qur'an erring. It is not that the Qur'an is geocentric, but rather that it is humancentric, which is logical since it is addressed to humans.
As said, please quote where the Qur'an sates unambiguously that the earth, the planet earth is static.
Salaam
-
Salaam,
And the earth according to Qur'an is likely flat. I can see now why some orthodox scholars like Sheikh Abdul-Aziz Baaz never supported the heliocentric model of the universe.
...
Peace Neptin,
This verse is a strong indication for a spherical earth.
https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/39/5/default.htm
Khalaqa alssamawati waal-arda bialhaqqi yukawwiru allayla AAala alnnahari wayukawwiru alnnahara AAala allayli wasakhkhara alshshamsa waalqamara kullun yajree li-ajalin musamman ala huwa alAAazeezu alghaffaru
Consider the specific word yukawwir
Kaf-Waw-Ra (Kaf-Alif-Ra) =
To wind, twist/fold/wrap, he wound round a turban, divested of light, blinded, shall pass away and come to naught.http//lisaan.net/%d9%83%d9%88%d8%b1/#fbde06
Peace. I can't agree with corpus Qur'an. 'qararan' refer to a state of rest, for a physical object. A revolving and rotating object like earth cannot be 'qararan'.
...The womb of woman is also described as " qararin "
Then We placed him (as) a semen-drop in a resting place firm.
Thumma jaAAalnahu nutfatan fee qararin makeenin
https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/23/13/
https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/77/21/
Peace.
It could. But the context of the verse is day and night circle and I can't see how solar apex have anything to do with that.
...
Consider that the Quran used this expression "limustaqarrin laha " only for the sun.
Allah knows best.
-
Salaam,
Peace Neptin,
This verse is a strong indication for a spherical earth.
https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/39/5/default.htm
Khalaqa alssamawati waal-arda bialhaqqi yukawwiru allayla AAala alnnahari wayukawwiru alnnahara AAala allayli wasakhkhara alshshamsa waalqamara kullun yajree li-ajalin musamman ala huwa alAAazeezu alghaffaru
Consider the specific word yukawwir
Kaf-Waw-Ra (Kaf-Alif-Ra) =
To wind, twist/fold/wrap, he wound round a turban, divested of light, blinded, shall pass away and come to naught.http//lisaan.net/%d9%83%d9%88%d8%b1/#fbde06
The womb of woman is also described as " qararin "
Then We placed him (as) a semen-drop in a resting place firm.
Thumma jaAAalnahu nutfatan fee qararin makeenin
https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/23/13/
https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/77/21/
Consider that the Quran used this expression "limustaqarrin laha " only for the sun.
Allah knows best.
Sound post, very much to the point.
Salaam
-
Slm ibn_a
https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/39/5/default.htm
He created the heavens and the earth in truth. He wraps the night over the day and wraps the day over the night. And He subjected the sun and the moon, each running for a term specified. Unquestionably, He (is) the All-Mighty, the Oft-Forgiving.does this verse talking about the earth or sun and the moon ( day and night wraps each other) ??
please can you give me explanation of this verses?
723-24
(Allah) said, "Get down some of you to some others (as) enemy. And for you in the earth (is) a dwelling place and livelihood for a time."
He said, "In it you will live and in it you will die and from it you will be brought forth." -
Peace.
I'm kind of surprise my findings have not been well received, where did the flat earth proponents in the forum go?
The problem I see is people here believe in heliocentric universe, even though they never verified it. They then decide to justify heliocentricity with Quran. How do we know mainstream science is correct?
Please see the link below. A case can be made for geocentricity.
geocentrism.com/See, this has nothing to do accuracy of Quranic statements. I think we should try minimize the influence of external ideas on our interpretation of Qur'an. We should try put ourself in position of the 7th century Arabs when we interpret Qur'an.
Salaam,
Peace Neptin,
This verse is a strong indication for a spherical earth.
https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/39/5/default.htm
Khalaqa alssamawati waal-arda bialhaqqi yukawwiru allayla AAala alnnahari wayukawwiru alnnahara AAala allayli wasakhkhara alshshamsa waalqamara kullun yajree li-ajalin musamman ala huwa alAAazeezu alghaffaru
Consider the specific word yukawwir
Kaf-Waw-Ra (Kaf-Alif-Ra) =
To wind, twist/fold/wrap, he wound round a turban, divested of light, blinded, shall pass away and come to naught.http//lisaan.net/%d9%83%d9%88%d8%b1/#fbde06
The womb of woman is also described as " qararin "
Then We placed him (as) a semen-drop in a resting place firm.
Thumma jaAAalnahu nutfatan fee qararin makeenin
https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/23/13/
https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/77/21/
Consider that the Quran used this expression "limustaqarrin laha " only for the sun.
Allah knows best.
Thanks. I'm looking into your exposition.
-
Peace.
See, this has nothing to do accuracy of Quranic statements. I think we should try minimize the influence of external ideas on our interpretation of Qur'an. We should try put ourself in position of the 7th century Arabs when we interpret Qur'an.
I did say this
By all means should the Qur'an uphold this or that astronomical view? whY?
Qur'an says what it has to say to people of any time concenring that which they can see and reason by themselves, in the sixth century in the twentieth or in the thousandth.
That is very consistent with the call of the Qur'an to all people to reason by themselves and to judge nd ponder on everything.
Why do you have to adscribe to it any particular "universal" conception on this or that? What is the reason or need for that.
The Qur'an does not present itself in as a textbook for anything, neither for cooking or knitting or horse mounting or anything. Speaks to the people as is.On the other hand scientific theories on anything change fast, not like human perception which is more or less the same now as 5 thousand years ago. If a certain scientific theory was obviously upheld in any book it would age very quickly and would unsettle the reader conmensurately all the time except for the time when it came out.
Also I vehemently reject that we should set us back into the 7th century Arabia. That is impossible, for us, for those before us except for the people themselves who lived hten and there. Simply I consider it nonsense. We do not have the slightest idea of what it was like or what it felt like. We have been injected we a lot of imagination of people who pretend to know anything about that. The fact is that the Qur'an does not, I repeat DOES NOT, set you back or forth to any particular time. Why does it avoid dates consistently, why does it avoid ethnic denominations consistently, why does it avoid places denominations consistently?
Because it does not want to bind the consumer of the Qur'an to any particular time or place or atmosphere. It gives plenty of human interaction and analysis so that as many aspects of human psychology and behaviour are given, but there is no time, no place, no etnia.
Interpetations, tafsirs and translations do a lot to undo what the Qur'an does, but the Qur'an is consistent, clever, incredibly clever... but we refuse to accept that and want at any price that it fits our own conceptions of what it should be. Like wantng it to belong to the 7th century, when we do not have any blooming idea of the seventh century not even of any century we have not been in. And since we do not know, we relie on those who pretend to know, although they do not know, or simply guess.
One thing about heliocentric only up to a certain extent, that is, only regarding the solar system, otherwise obviously it also turns around something else, and in that sense our system, the system of the Earth and the Moon, is also geocentric, since the Earth does not turn around the moon, but the opposite.
Salaam
-
I agree with what you have written except the part on Dark Flow.
DARK flow is very mysterious type of subject same like dark energy and dark matter, its the findings from science u can fully disagree with it. i havnt studied dark flow in detail but whatever i study its amazing.
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_flow
This is why I beg to differ with those who claim Qur'an's mention of solar orbit refers to the its orbit around the center of the milky way galaxy.
same i differ in lot of things with people and its happening from the dawn of humankind..
whatever u claiming about them, its not true coz recent discoveries shows that galaxies are also moving away from eachother isnt it?.
We should try put ourself in position of the 7th century Arabs when we interpret Qur'an.
we CANT,
we just crossed https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Discovery
we NOW are living in https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_Age
so we should interpret as per RULE 17 36 by checking all information what we have..(in 7th century information and todays information which one is ACCURATE ? ) about GPS and all maping system..
where did the flat earth proponents in the forum go?
may be they are on HOLIDAYS.
or solving the myth of solar and lunar eclipse phenomenon
