homosexuality, the way forward?
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Well, I no longer see any reason to go on with this discussion. The lines are clearly drawn and now I believe I know where people stand on this issue. At the root of it is whether or not we will behave in accordance to quranic mandates. Positions on this are clear to me now.
If you say so. But I can't abdicate my reason and make SCRIPTURE my REASON.
The double standard aspect is very clear. Many of us see this. As far as possible hypocrisy....well, we can't know if he has a hidden aganda if he doesn't come out and tell us. That's what makes the agenda effective....the fact that it's hidden.
There has not been any double standards. I have stood up personal freedom. You have stood up to make SCRIPTURE your REASON. I have argued for PERSONAL LIBERTY, a personal liberty with RESPONSIBILITY. If my argument have not been coherent enough then I apologise. But if you wish to discuss PERSONAL LIBERTY and FREEDOM we could do this under a another thread.
We don't know that. Any of us here could be hiding something and the others may not know it. For all you know, I could be the hypocrite with a hidden agenda here. Keep in mind though that I am not accusing Lote Tree of this or labelling him as a hypocrite. I am merely pointing out how his posts and comments will make it so that others may question his motives and goals of being here.
I don't understand this - why this paranoia? Is your faith so fickle? This is an open forum, where anyone can come and debate. But why should I have to come with a motive? What motive would that be - I really want to know from you? The impression that I get from you, like your repeated warnings (Yes, I have ignored those - but you don't have the right to warn anyone here - this is an open forum!) that we have to debate with scripture as our reason. Has the FREE-MINDS forum have to comform to your agenda and premise?
What game are we playing here? ?
Which bit of the GAME as you call it you don't understand Damon? Do you get the concept of Personal Liberty with responsibility?
I specifically said that I respect and support FREEDOM and INDIVIDUALITY BUT with boundaries and respect for GOD's rules.
and I said
"That is perfectly fine and commendable. But don't enforce this limit to other individuals. This is unfair and patronising because someone's understanding of God will be different from yours, and perhaps far superior than yours. An understanding of God that comes from love and compassion and not blind obedience to rules in a scripture"
What I have said wrong here? Where is the contradiction?
Anyway, as I said earlier in this post, our respective stances are clear. You DO NOT believe the quran to be GOD's absolute decrees!! Truth, TAJ and myself DO!! It is at this stage that WE ALL should just say Lakum deenukum wa 'leeya deen. To you your path and to me my path. I am innocent of what you do and you are innocent of what I do.
Hey man, this what I have been saying from the start of the thread! Scripture is A TRUTH. Did it take you that long to grasp this simple notion?
I guess when you make SCRIPTURE your REASON, it is hard to see this...With due respects,
Regards,
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If you say so. But I can't abdicate my reason and make SCRIPTURE my REASON.
That is quite clear Mr. Lote Tree, no need to become a broken record. I've already acknowledged your position on this.
There has not been any double standards.
Yeah there has and I am not the only one who's seen it.
I have stood up personal freedom. You have stood up to make SCRIPTURE your REASON.
First of all, I thought I invited you to check my past posts since I've been here at this forum. Your lame accusation that scripture is my one and only logic is not only unwarranted, but totally false. If the quran is clear on a certain issue, then I respect GOD and the quran enough to follow suit. You, on the other hand, don't see it that way.
Earlier in this thread, you called me a zealot and a quranic puritan. By your logic, and in all fairness, if you see me as a puritan and a zealot because of my adherence to the quran, then by the same token I can logically and rightfully see you as a hypocrite and a transgressor. It's only fair.
I don't understand this - why this paranoia? Is your faith so fickle?
Kid, you don't know me. What makes you think my faith is fickle? Where have I ever demonstrated a fickleness with my faith?
why should I have to come with a motive? What motive would that be - I really want to know from you?
For all we know, your mission could be to change peoples views of the quran. But the only people that this would work on are those who don't have the same conviction on the quran as I have dmonstrated to have myself. Who knows? People have come to FREE-MINDS in the past with all sorts of nonsense.
The impression that I get from you, like your repeated warnings (Yes, I have ignored those - but you don't have the right to warn anyone here - this is an open forum!) that we have to debate with scripture as our reason.
Well for the third time, your impression is dead wrong. Read other posts mad by me in all sorts of threads and you will learn that your impression is far off base. The impression that I am getting from reading your posts is one who doesn't care what scripture says at all and possibly there is something you wish to tell us. Am I right on this impression? Is there something you wish to come out in the open about?
. Has the FREE-MINDS forum have to comform to your agenda and premise?
Uumm....did I ever say that Lote Tree?
Which bit of the GAME as you call it you don't understand Damon?
The contradiction and double standard game that you are playing.
Hey man, this what I have been saying from the start of the thread! Scripture is A TRUTH. Did it take you that long to grasp this simple notion?
No wise guy, I grasped it from the time you first uttered it. But it did just don on me that because of that position, you are not open to the notion that there are certain mandates that we are bound to as per quran, whereas the belief of Truth, Saladin, TAJ and myself in the quran have made us open to these mandates. It's that simple. Are you going to uphold what the quran says to uphold or are you not going to uphold what the quran says to uphold? Those who choose to uphold it do so because they believe in what is being said in it. Those who choose not to uphold it refuse to do so because of their disbelief in it. You don't believe in it (which I totally respect by the way) therefore you cannot see yourself bound by what is written within it. I believe this is also a part of the test of our life here in this realm. I believe that there is a day when we will be graded and be given either a passing grade or a failing grade. Hey, to each his own.
I guess when you make SCRIPTURE your REASON, it is hard to see this...
I guess when you're a HS apologetic, it's hard to see the difference between morality and immorality.
With Due Respects,
One.
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I will be more bold than others and say that I find LoteTree's entire position to be one of a hypocrite and at the root of it an unappreciative person (called an unbeliever by traditionalists).
At first he presented his primary doubt about the koran as a question, but it is clear that he holds this view firmly and has the habit of using weasel words and playing the game of double standards.
That is perfectly fine and commendable. But don't enforce this limit to other individuals. This is unfair and patronising because someone's understanding of God will be different from yours, and perhaps far superior than yours. An understanding of God that comes from love and compassion and not blind obedience to rules in a scripture"
What I have said wrong here? Where is the contradiction?
What have you said that's right? By whose standards?
Note well the weasel words LT uses - "blind obedience". The framing is done in such a way that what LoteTree is actually saying is that
"obedience = blindness"
and thereafter championing the concept of personal freedom being higher than obedience to God; as well as putting forward that personal determination of limits and responsibilities is superior to God given limits.
Hey man, this what I have been saying from the start of the thread! Scripture is A TRUTH. Did it take you that long to grasp this simple notion?
I guess when you make SCRIPTURE your REASON, it is hard to see this...At best you are someone who accepts koran partially.
By choosing to ignore or reject parts based on personal freedom and liberty; you are saying much more than it is "A TRUTH". You are using weasel words to hide something here.
There are no degrees of truth LoteTree. The world of the relativist is muddled in such confused morasses.
The brute fact that emerges from your statement is that you believe some of the koran to be FALSEHOOD. You make it of no account.
Thus your hypocrisy and your unbelief are exposed. I must deal with you in this way in order to take away the wishy washy facade you are presenting and make it brutally obvious that you are in 'kufr' (unappreciative disbelief).
This will be my final post on this thread.
PEACE.
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Yeah there has and I am not the only one who's seen it.
You see double standard because you have not grasped what FREEDOM and PERSONAL LIBERTY means.
Earlier in this thread, you called me a zealot and a quranic puritan. By your logic, and in all fairness, if you see me as a puritan and a zealot because of my adherence to the quran, then by the same token I can logically and rightfully see you as a hypocrite and a transgressor. It's only fair.
Your writing indicated that you were a Puritan. Like your repeated warning to everyone and your constant badgering with verses from the quran like hadithist badgers one with endless hadith. It was arrogant of you to warn us. Your writing spoke of your puritanism. Now you telling me you are not?
You can call me transgressor. The one who breaks the rule. The one who lives outside of the rule. The one who strives to go beyond all the rules so that he may understand something of the infinity of the divinity that created him. Perhaps I am a transgressor in that sense. I am transgressor of man-made restriction on my personal liberty as an individual.
But hypocrite? I don't think so. I suggest you read all my posts as you suggested that I read your posts. In this thread I believe I have not been hypocritical. Is hypocrite one who does not accept quran as abosolute truth in your eyes? or one that stands for PERSONAL LIBERTY and FREEDOM?
Kid, you don't know me. What makes you think my faith is fickle? Where have I ever demonstrated a fickleness with my faith?
Baby, you don't know me either! Fickelness was a unfortunate use of word. What I meant to say doubtful about your faith. Your warnings and the paranoia about my motives - shows that you were threatened by my arguments.
For all we know, your mission could be to change peoples views of the quran.
And you feel really threatened by it? Do you trust your own reason?
If so, why do you think other people are unable to use their Reason?
This is the heart of the matter for you isn't it? Your fear that other people will not able to use their own reason to decide for themselves the validity of my arguments. This is the Islamic Ulema mentality. The Ulemas of the Islamic empire hated human reason so much that they officially closed the doors of itjihad (independent reasoning) around the 12th century and doing so they doomed the Islamic enterprise to an envitable death. I urge people to break out of this kind of thinking...But the only people that this would work on are those who don't have the same conviction on the quran as I have dmonstrated to have myself.
Quite a ego you have there. Why do you de-value other peoples intelligence apart from yours? This indeed hypocrisy and it is also patronising! Can you not see this?
Who knows? People have come to FREE-MINDS in the past with all sorts of nonsense.
And your the Guardian of FREE-MINDS from all these nonsense? How noble of you.
The impression that I am getting from reading your posts is one who doesn't care what scripture says at all and possibly there is something you wish to tell us.
Yes you are right. I don't take scripture as Absolute Truth. I have said often enough. It is A TRUTH. Scripture is not important to me. Only GOD is. Scripture has become your idol as Prophet was your idol in the past. How did get out of the Prophet Idolisation? Could it be that you USED YOUR REASON?
And there is something I would like to tell those who take scripture as Absolute Truth - READ other SOURCES, study all forms of spirituality and then you might realise that SCRIPTURE is not important in finding God and that scripture is A TRUTH.
No wise guy, I grasped it from the time you first uttered it. But it did just don on me that because of that position, you are not open to the notion that there are certain mandates that we are bound to as per quran, whereas the belief of Truth, Saladin, TAJ and myself in the quran have made us open to these mandates.
Again all I can say. THIS IS AN OPEN FORUM. You can't impose your mandates on us! By all means talk about your MANDATES but don't assume that everyone should bow down to your mandate. If it was a ONLY A ISLAMIC FORUM do you think I would bother coming here? I would rather watch paint dry. But this is an OPEN FORUM so don't keep your mandates hidden if you want to use it in your arguments...
I believe this is also a part of the test of our life here in this realm. I believe that there is a day when we will be graded and be given either a passing grade or a failing grade. Hey, to each his own.
I would fail you in this test. Because you did not use your God-given reason but rather you abdicated your reason to scripture -)
I guess when you're a HS apologetic, it's hard to see the difference between morality and immorality.
If you say standing up for FREEDOM, PERSONAL LIBERTY, TOLERANCE, LOVE, COMPASSION and UNDERSTANDING as being apologetic then as a INDIVIDUAL you are FREE to say that. Though I disagree with you...
Let me tell you this and I repeat again
Compassion is ETHOS of all religions.
Love and Compassion is what makes us human.Compassion is not easy Damon. Hate is easy. It is easy to hate. But it is harder to love and to be compassionate. May be one day you might come to understand the nature of compassion and perhaps then you can start to grow both spiritually and intellectually towards an understanding of the God that created you...
With due respects,
Regards,
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I will be more bold than others and say that I find LoteTree's entire position to be one of a hypocrite and at the root of it an unappreciative person (called an unbeliever by traditionalists).
You are too kind Mr. Puritan! Appreciative of what? Scripture as Absolute Truth? I have made my position clear on this. So why go on about it?
At first he presented his primary doubt about the koran as a question..
All I ask you to go an read other sources. Study all forms of spiritualitly then you will realise that scripture is not IMPORTANT in understanding God and that Scripture is A TRUTH. Why don't you refute my argument on the A TRUTH?
Note well the weasel words LT uses - "blind obedience". The framing is done in such a way that what LoteTree is actually saying is that
"obedience = blindness"If you accept scripture as absolute truth as you do, you can't do anything else can you apart from follow it? I will say to you following rules of scripture will not make you grow intellectually or spiritually. When you start to think outside of the scripture then growth is possible...
and thereafter championing the concept of personal freedom being higher than obedience to God;
Personal FREEDOM to find God in your own way that is more important than obedience to scriptural rules...
as well as putting forward that personal determination of limits and responsibilities is superior to God given limits.
If you set any limits then how can you grow? It is when we break out of the boundaries that growth can take place...instead of being rats in a maze without question you start to realise that YOU are a rat in a maze and that you need to get out of it...
By choosing to ignore or reject parts based on personal freedom and liberty; you are saying much more than it is "A TRUTH". You are using weasel words to hide something here.
Again I ask you to go and read different sources and study spirituality...
There are no degrees of truth LoteTree. The world of the relativist is muddled in such confused morasses.
It is much much better than a Puritan view of black and white, right and wrong. The crucial difference between the two is that Puritan abdicates his reason, I will not. I will strive for my own understanding of God and religion...
The brute fact that emerges from your statement is that you believe some of the koran to be FALSEHOOD. You make it of no account.
No. All scripture is an interpretaiton of an wordless reality that we call God. To verify that there is a wordless reality, I suggest you try simple meditation techniques and then you will realise that there is a another level of perception that lies beyond the ordinary rational thought processes. A perception that can't be put into words...
Thus your hypocrisy and your unbelief are exposed. I must deal with you in this way in order to take away the wishy washy facade you are presenting and make it brutally obvious that you are in 'kufr' (unappreciative disbelief).
WOW I have been judged by the Truth! But I make no judgement on you Truth or are you also known as SERVANT?. Why do use different login ID? So you can play your game of hide and seek with the "truth"? But I accept you as individual to have whatever belief you like. But again I must stress that this is an OPEN FORUM where anyone can come and discuss matters of beliefs. Don't assume that because you accept scripture as absolute truth that this is the only way to God? This is blatant arrogance and hypocrisy. God is important not scripture. Scripture is not God. Don't idolise scripture. God is your goal....
With due respects.
Regards,
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It's clear that no one is posting on the original thread's premise so rather than create a new thread to address you, I will continue here.
I will be more bold than others and say that I find LoteTree's entire position to be one of a hypocrite and at the root of it an unappreciative person (called an unbeliever by traditionalists).
You are too kind Mr. Puritan! Appreciative of what? Scripture as Absolute Truth? I have made my position clear on this. So why go on about it?
This demonstrates the COLLAPSE of your argument. Your pursuit for tolerance through relativism suddenly evaporates when you begin to derisively use such loaded labels against someone.
I believe in absolutes and the existence of universal validity so I may make these judgements against you; I do not deny my ability to judge. But you allege that you absolve yourself of judgement of others except where it is useful to you.
You demonstrate such hypocrisy LoteTree; whereas I espouse my views and back them up with my words. Your words are made to mean nothing by your relativism.
At first he presented his primary doubt about the koran as a question..
All I ask you to go an read other sources. Study all forms of spiritualitly then you will realise that scripture is not IMPORTANT in understanding God and that Scripture is A TRUTH. Why don't you refute my argument on the A TRUTH?
No. This is not all you are asking. You are using weasel words to hide your attempt to rubbish the existence of universal validity. If such concepts do not exist for you; then YOU must accept that others will not agree with your relativism which has the least basis in the two positions. You do not have to argue with me on this. Philosophers have already demolished the position of relativists like you.
Your argument on "A TRUTH" is meaningless because you are not backing it up with solid arguments. What do you mean by "A TRUTH" - there are no degrees of truth. Something either is true or is not.
By using weasel words you are trying to create degrees of truth or morality.
Toilet paper is "A TRUTH". Do you understand?
Note well the weasel words LT uses - "blind obedience". The framing is done in such a way that what LoteTree is actually saying is that
"obedience = blindness"If you accept scripture as absolute truth as you do, you can't do anything else can you apart from follow it? I will say to you following rules of scripture will not make you grow intellectually or spiritually. When you start to think outside of the scripture then growth is possible...
More weasel words. What is 'spiritual'? What is 'growth'? What are your objective standards for these things?
and thereafter championing the concept of personal freedom being higher than obedience to God;
Personal FREEDOM to find God in your own way that is more important than obedience to scriptural rules...
More weasel words. Why is finding God mutually exclusive of obedience of God's way?
How can something be "A TRUTH" when you deny the need to follow it. What you are trying to say is that you find that there are OTHER TRUTHS and no one is denying this.
But you are taking this further - you are saying that the OTHER TRUTHS are superior to what to you is "A TRUTH". You have other books to uphold for guidance when the koran says it is complete, sufficient and detailed.
I'm not saying anything new; just clarifying for the benefit of everyone on this public forum (which is important to you) that you are making the koran thus of no account 2530, and are astray.
as well as putting forward that personal determination of limits and responsibilities is superior to God given limits.
If you set any limits then how can you grow? It is when we break out of the boundaries that growth can take place...instead of being rats in a maze without question you start to realise that YOU are a rat in a maze and that you need to get out of it...
In fact it is you who are the rat in the maze because a maze implies confusion and no map nor guide to get out. In your arrogance you believe you are outside the maze when you are scratching at every wall where you find "A TRUTH" here and "A TRUTH" there. The problem is you have no means of knowing which "TRUTH" (which is meaningless in your world) is real and which is not. You are lost in a world without objective truth and without universal validity.
What you say one moment is repudiated the next. It is you LoteTree who have no way out of your confused maze of relativism when everyone else is outside looking in on your confusion.
By choosing to ignore or reject parts based on personal freedom and liberty; you are saying much more than it is "A TRUTH". You are using weasel words to hide something here.
Again I ask you to go and read different sources and study spirituality...
Again I ask you to read what I have written above in relation to your different sources.
Moreover you are being ignorant or arrogant in your assumption that we haven't. You have little knowledge of who I am or what I have attained or what I have read and yet you speak as if you are addressing a programmed robot.
Such is the world of the relativist; anyone who is firmly grounded is unable to experience the waves and uncertainty and doubt inherent in the position of the relativist. They transmogrify the ocean of doubt into a place of relative truths - where nothing is 'wrong' (whatever that means to them) and everything is 'true' (whatever that means to them).
There are no degrees of truth LoteTree. The world of the relativist is muddled in such confused morasses.
It is much much better than a Puritan view of black and white, right and wrong. The crucial difference between the two is that Puritan abdicates his reason, I will not. I will strive for my own understanding of God and religion...
Resorting back to ad hominem are we? Notwithstanding the label though - why is 'puritanism' wrong? You said you were not for undermining anyone's views and upholding everyone as equal. How does your reasoning allow you to say these things without sounding like a hypocrite?
The brute fact that emerges from your statement is that you believe some of the koran to be FALSEHOOD. You make it of no account.
No. All scripture is an interpretaiton of an wordless reality that we call God. To verify that there is a wordless reality, I suggest you try simple meditation techniques and then you will realise that there is a another level of perception that lies beyond the ordinary rational thought processes. A perception that can't be put into words...
But you are merely stating what everyone who is outside of the judaeo-christian-pagan view of the God as something within the human intellect.
What you are confusing is the ineffability of the God, which you think must be reflected in matters that are very human and are very much physical and to do with our conduct in this world.
The God is the creator. He is outside of our intellect and understanding beyond the broadest brushstrokes. You are confusing this with the clarity of God's way.
Thus your hypocrisy and your unbelief are exposed. I must deal with you in this way in order to take away the wishy washy facade you are presenting and make it brutally obvious that you are in 'kufr' (unappreciative disbelief).
WOW I have been judged by the Truth!
Again weasel words. My understanding and position allows me to judge. We judge everything; nay we must judge everything - it is an imperative that the God gives us with free will. I cannot pass judgement unless that is given to me but of course I judge, and so do you, and so does everyone else.
The christian falsehood of 'judge not lest ye be judged' is not for me. Everyone must judge me in their own minds - no one stays neutral and cannot stay neutral in such matters. You side with what is true and right and leave what is false and wrong.
But I make no judgement on you Truth or are you also known as SERVANT?. Why do use different login ID? So you can play your game of hide and seek with the "truth"?
You have judged me as a deceptive person who plays games with hide and seek of the truth have you not?
I write this for everyone's benefit so that your false assertions may be shown. It is no secret that I have 'servant' as an ID I post under - and I have even posted openly on this public forum that this would be the case.
When the forum was undergoing problems with the server clock I could not post with my 'truth' ID. The software would not allow it. So I used my other ID. That's the extent of my 'hide and seek'. Everything was open in the first place but I understand your need to demonise and cast untrue and unsupportable assertions on me.
But I accept you as individual to have whatever belief you like. But again I must stress that this is an OPEN FORUM where anyone can come and discuss matters of beliefs. Don't assume that because you accept scripture as absolute truth that this is the only way to God? This is blatant arrogance and hypocrisy. God is important not scripture. Scripture is not God. Don't idolise scripture. God is your goal....
LoteTree you do not realise how blind you are to the truth.
4144 If we made it a non-Arabic Quran they would have said, "Why did it come down in that language?" Whether it is Arabic or non-Arabic, say, "For those who believe, it is a guide and healing. As for those who disbelieve, they will be deaf and blind to it, as if they are being addressed from faraway."
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This demonstrates the COLLAPSE of your argument. Your pursuit for tolerance through relativism suddenly evaporates when you begin to derisively use such loaded labels against someone.
I have been very patient with you. You use labels why not me? and you dare to tarnish everyone with label of hypocrisy by opening a topic in my honour! I take exeception to these things not because of me but when other individuals are implicated in your broad righteous brush strokes...
I believe in absolutes and the existence of universal validity so I may make these judgements against you; I do not deny my ability to judge. But you allege that you absolve yourself of judgement of others except where it is useful to you.
I do not believe that scripture is a ABSOLUTE TRUTH so I can't use it to judge you. As an individual you have the right to judge and you have exercised your right.
Your words are made to mean nothing by your relativism.
So why are responding to this? Why have you been responding to this. If my words did not mean nothign and did not touch you some way - why bother opening a special thread in my honour? Admit it you are troubled by my words.
No. This is not all you are asking. You are using weasel words to hide your attempt to rubbish the existence of universal validity.
No. I am asking you not be ignorant of other possible ways to God. And scritpure is not the only way to God. When you accept ABSOLUTE TRUTH you deny infinite possibility of God.
Your argument on "A TRUTH" is meaningless because you are not backing it up with solid arguments. What do you mean by "A TRUTH" - there are no degrees of truth. Something either is true or is not.
My argument is sound. That is why it bothers you. Something can be True and yet not be ABSOLUTE TRUTH...
More weasel words. What is 'spiritual'? What is 'growth'? What are your objective standards for these things?
Well if you do not know what is spiritual growth then I suggest to you that you do some reading and educate yourself on this matter...
How can something be "A TRUTH" when you deny the need to follow it. What you are trying to say is that you find that there are OTHER TRUTHS and no one is denying this.
When you accept ABSOLUTE TRUTH as a scripture then you DO deny other truths. How can there be other truths when have absolute truth? Other truths therefore becomes false?
But you are taking this further - you are saying that the OTHER TRUTHS are superior to what to you is "A TRUTH". You have other books to uphold for guidance when the koran says it is complete, sufficient and detailed.
Superior? I made no distinction. To you Quran is only truth, because it says so that is detailed and complete. To me it is a truth.
Let me ask you is it so wrong to see Divinity in a different light from all the ?Abrahamic? religions?
One can argue that the concept of the impersonal Nirvana and the impersonal laws of Karma are more attuned with our modern day sensibilities? Or the concept of ?fana? in mystical spirituality is more ?intellectually? satisfying and is in more attuned to the yearning of our soul? - how these spiritual experience in any way invalid?
In fact it is you who are the rat in the maze because a maze implies confusion and no map nor guide to get out.
Good point. I meant it in terms of a prison.
You are lost in a world without objective truth and without universal validity.
There is no objective truth of God. And if you say there is then I say to you, you are wrong on this matter. God is a subjective experience of the individual.
Moreover you are being ignorant or arrogant in your assumption that we haven't. You have little knowledge of who I am or what I have attained or what I have read and yet you speak as if you are addressing a programmed robot.
Your writing does not borne out that you have. Your only source is scripture. I have not seen no other sources being quoted.
Such is the world of the relativist; anyone who is firmly grounded is unable to experience the waves and uncertainty and doubt inherent in the position of the relativist. They transmogrify the ocean of doubt into a place of relative truths - where nothing is 'wrong' (whatever that means to them) and everything is 'true' (whatever that means to them).
I have no certainty of anything. I will echo the socratic phrase - I know nothing. But it seems you do...doubts not bad. Doubts is a prelude to a better and superior understanding of the divinity.
But you are merely stating what everyone who is outside of the judaeo-christian-pagan view of the God as something within the human intellect.
God is surely not obedience to scripture. It is human intellect that arrives at the notion of God.
The God is the creator. He is outside of our intellect and understanding beyond the broadest brushstrokes.
You say God is beyond the Reason then how can you describe God with Reason?
Again weasel words. My understanding and position allows me to judge.
Is this not an arrogant view?
The christian falsehood of 'judge not lest ye be judged' is not for me.
And you are FREE to choose that.
Everyone must judge me in their own minds - no one stays neutral and cannot stay neutral in such matters. You side with what is true and right and leave what is false and wrong.
Come on truth, nothing in life is like that. Life is infinitely complex.
You have judged me as a deceptive person who plays games with hide and seek of the truth have you not?
It seemed like this when I learned that you have two login ids.
I write this for everyone's benefit so that your false assertions may be shown. It is no secret that I have 'servant' as an ID I post under - and I have even posted openly on this public forum that this would be the case.
I stand corrected then.
LoteTree you do not realise how blind you are to the truth.
Blindness Truth, is accepting one source as absolute truth and ignoring the rest.
This Universe is infinitely complex so is humanity. There are many paths to God. But to you there is only one path...
Regards,
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This demonstrates the COLLAPSE of your argument. Your pursuit for tolerance through relativism suddenly evaporates when you begin to derisively use such loaded labels against someone.
I have been very patient with you. You use labels why not me?
I can assure you that I hold no ill feelings towards you. I am not personally annoyed and thus I have not needed to be patient in that sense.
While I am not a guardian over anyone I do like the truth to emerge about people's positions - ambiguity and dissimulation are not things I personally like and thus must be exposed when detected.
I am not labelling you, if I have then it is a mistake of my expression. You will find that I will generally point out that your position is one of hypocrisy or unappreciation. I try to be specific about it relating to your behaviour whereas you use labels pejoratively about the person.
and you dare to tarnish everyone with label of hypocrisy by opening a topic in my honour! I take exeception to these things not because of me but when other individuals are implicated in your broad righteous brush strokes...
When a fisherman casts out a line does he know which fish will come to his line?
Does the post mention any names?
And yet your insecurity or illusions made you believe that it addressed you. What does that say about you? Did you wonder why you yourself believed you were amongst the hypocrites?
Your argument on "A TRUTH" is meaningless because you are not backing it up with solid arguments. What do you mean by "A TRUTH" - there are no degrees of truth. Something either is true or is not.
My argument is sound. That is why it bothers you. Something can be True and yet not be ABSOLUTE TRUTH...
This is your problem. What is 'absolute' for you?
Can you name one thing that is absolute truth for you? This is important so I would like you to attempt to answer it.
One can argue that the concept of the impersonal Nirvana and the impersonal laws of Karma are more attuned with our modern day sensibilities?
Are these your cherished other sources? Buddhism?
There is no objective truth of God. And if you say there is then I say to you, you are wrong on this matter. God is a subjective experience of the individual.
That I exist is objective truth of the God.
I did not cause myself, therefore something must have caused me, and something must have caused that..... and so on to the ultimate cause. The One who is outside of the laws of the universe and causation. The Absolute. The God.
I have no certainty of anything. I will echo the socratic phrase - I know nothing. But it seems you do...doubts not bad. Doubts is a prelude to a better and superior understanding of the divinity.
I have certainty of myself, and know myself. I will echo Descarte's phrase - cogito ergo sum - I think thus I am. Because I am, I have a cause and that ultimate cause is the God.
Blindness Truth, is accepting one source as absolute truth and ignoring the rest.
To you it seems accepting God's way means ignoring everything else.
I think you are confused about what absolute truth is. God is absolute truth. The fact that I have written this post is absolute truth. I surmise from your posts that you believe everything can only be a subjective truth (from your subjective God). It also seems to be the case that you hold that there can only be relative truth.
These are deep philosophical differences and cannot be bridged, and need not be however it should be apparent that when the reading hints that things are in pairs - that such things as subjective vs. objective truth, and absolute vs relative truth are such pairs.
Moreover just as the God represents absolute truth; Satan represents the state of relativism and subjectivity. There are deep irreconcilable differences in these positions.
The reading is clear on Satan's position of seeing things relative to himself - that he is greater than Adam, though he is less than God (as he submits to His law) - whereas God is not relative to anything. God is absolute and just exists. Satan does not submit to the objective reality of the God's absoluteness - instead he upholds personal freedom and liberty and acts accordingly.
Satanists have the prime principle of - "Do as you please" - and your views lead down that path also as you would not want to undermine anyone's freedoms, and least of all your own. But you deny the rights of freedom of some by taking a stance against incest for example. So you are doomed to hypocrisy by your relativism.
You are free to ponder on these things but I think that the end of the road has been reached in this matter as I see it (though that is not absolute).
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Hello Truth,
I sense a change of tone in this post and that is a good thing. I would like to think of myself as being fair and honest. And those that know me I know will say these things of me too. No way have I tried to decieve anyone here on this forum. If I have been very assertive in my tone of language then this is because I am very passionate about what I believe in and that is FREEDOM and PERSONAL LIBERTY and so you are passionate about scripture. But you found Scripture as Absolute Truth for all eternity for all mankind. I am unable to agree with you on this...
While I am not a guardian over anyone I do like the truth to emerge about people's positions - ambiguity and dissimulation are not things I personally like and thus must be exposed when detected.
But Truth, with due respects to you, you could have asked me that? It is not the forum requirements to declare your position at the door is it? If it was then I would have done so. But if you have read my post and I remember you answering my first post then you would have known from then that I have argued scripture as A TRUTH. Therefore I have not been hypocritical about it.
I am not labelling you, if I have then it is a mistake of my expression. You will find that I will generally point out that your position is one of hypocrisy or unappreciation.
I dissagree with you there. Hypocrite means someone who is a fraud. Is arguing for scripture a truth being fraudulent? Is unappreciation of scripture as absolute truth being fraudulent? I think not.
and you dare to tarnish everyone with label of hypocrisy by opening a topic in my honour! I take exeception to these things not because of me but when other individuals are implicated in your broad righteous brush strokes...
When a fisherman casts out a line does he know which fish will come to his line?
Does the post mention any names?And yet your insecurity or illusions made you believe that it addressed you. What does that say about you? Did you wonder why you yourself believed you were amongst the hypocrites?
Well, fisherman should not cast this net in this kind of a open forum truth. It would have been ok for you to do this if it was a closed forum. Your actions is that of censhorship to make people fear of being labelled a hypocrite. You made people fear to air their honest thoughts. And this is not right.
Why did you not mention names? That would have been better. Without naming names you have made it worse. And it does not take rocket science to figure out that it was directed at me. Other people have informed me that it was directed against me and also a reliable source has informed me that it was directed against me. And thats the thing I find very sad that you could have approached me first but you did not. And as a result all forum members are implicated and I take exception to this specially in an open forum like this.
It was not my insecurity that I replied to your "hypocrite" thread but rather I feared censorship on this forum. I do not believe I am a hypocrite but my radical view on scripture has upset a lot of people on this forum. I was given repeated warnings about it. So conclusion was easy to draw that my radical views have made a lot of people fear. And you feared it so much that you had to open a thread in my honour. But lets put this behind and move on...
This is your problem. What is 'absolute' for you?
Good lets argue this point under a different thread shall we?
One can argue that the concept of the impersonal Nirvana and the impersonal laws of Karma are more attuned with our modern day sensibilities?
Are these your cherished other sources? Buddhism?
Do you know that Buddhist experience of Nirvana has commonality with mystics all around the world? But more surprisingly the experience has also commonality with the Hebrew Prophets experiences of the divine. Even the greate seers and sages in the past speak of this common experience. You must know that prophet Muhammad also ecountered the divine in a meditative trance. So what does this tell us about reality of Divinity that we call God?
That I exist is objective truth of the God.
Good lets talk about this under a different thread. I am really interested to discuss this with you.
To you it seems accepting God's way means ignoring everything else.
No Truth. I think God should be the most important thing in our life and not the Scripture. Scripture should only be GUIDE to God, then we should go beyond the GUIDE itself and not make it our idol. That is my contention. My belief in God is most important to me. But my own reliable guide is my reason, intuition and imaginations.
I think you are confused about what absolute truth is. God is absolute truth. The fact that I have written this post is absolute truth. I surmise from your posts that you believe everything can only be a subjective truth (from your subjective God). It also seems to be the case that you hold that there can only be relative truth.
I believe that there is no objective truth of God. Objective study of the Universe indeed will indicate that there is a designer to the Universe. And I believe the Universe does show that there is a designer but God can only be an subjective experience of the Individual. This insights have been derived by the great seers, sages, meditators and mystics in the bygone ages of this world. Even simple meditation techniques has allowed me to percieve a reality that is beyond my ordinary rational thought processes. But lets discuss this under a different thread. I am really interested in this..
These are deep philosophical differences and cannot be bridged, and need not be however it should be apparent that when the reading hints that things are in pairs - that such things as subjective vs. objective truth, and absolute vs relative truth are such pairs.
Lets discuss this too under different thread.
Moreover just as the God represents absolute truth; Satan represents the state of relativism and subjectivity. There are deep irreconcilable differences in these positions.
Let me make my position clear on Satan. I don't believe Satan as a separate entity but rather it is to do with nature of our FREE WILL.
Satan does not submit to the objective reality of the God's absoluteness - instead he upholds personal freedom and liberty and acts accordingly.
There is no objective truth. Science is already hinting that there is no objective truth. Have you heard of the Holographic Principle? Again lets discuss this.
Satanists have the prime principle of - "Do as you please" - and your views lead down that path also as you would not want to undermine anyone's freedoms, and least of all your own.
Again you are labelling millions of people who uphold principles of FREEDOM and PERSONAL LIBERTY. We have universal declaration of human rights. Is this satanic invention?
But you deny the rights of freedom of some by taking a stance against incest for example. So you are doomed to hypocrisy by your relativism.
You need to understand yourself what FREEDOM with RESPONSIBILITY means. Think about it.
You are free to ponder on these things but I think that the end of the road has been reached in this matter as I see it (though that is not absolute).
You have reached the end of the road truth because you have found your absolute truth in scripture. I have not. We both have been honest in our positions. But the difference between you and I are that there will always be room for further intellectual and spiritual development as an individual. You are stuck with your current understanding...
Regards
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If I have been very assertive in my tone of language then this is because I am very passionate about what I believe in and that is FREEDOM and PERSONAL LIBERTY and so you are passionate about scripture. But you found Scripture as Absolute Truth for all eternity for all mankind. I am unable to agree with you on this...
See Lote you are fighting a straw man here. Freedom and personal liberty are givens; but to me they are not unbounded. They are not unbounded because the unbounded freedom of one person will encroach on the freedoms of another. Your liberty to smoke a cigarette may be the restriction of my freedom to breathe fresh air.
You are confusing what you mean by absolute truth when you use it in relation to the reading. I have stated my views on absolute truth on a separate thread. It's not that I have found 'scripture' (a weasel word) to be absolute truth; the reading IS absolute truth because it has no falsehood. Its existence is independent of me or my act of finding it.
I cannot blame you for not being entirely familiar with my views, but several months ago I made my position clear that people should not label themselves "Quran alone" - and rather if they wanted to adopt a position then say "God alone". I have debunked many quran idoliser arguments so your statements of the journey ending with the 'scripture' (a word I never use) is false.
A scripture pertains to the sacred writings of a religion. I do not believe in religion. The reading is a communication. It's a message - not something sacred to be venerated or kissed and hung up on a wall.
Your antipathy towards scripture is extreme and ill founded.
Do you know that Buddhist experience of Nirvana has commonality with mystics all around the world? But more surprisingly the experience has also commonality with the Hebrew Prophets experiences of the divine. Even the greate seers and sages in the past speak of this common experience. You must know that prophet Muhammad also ecountered the divine in a meditative trance. So what does this tell us about reality of Divinity that we call God?
Lote just like I am free of religion, I am free of mysticism. In the reading the God does not use the word mystery or mysticism. These are concepts that men create - and mystery is a greater part of the doctrines on 'Christ' and 'Trinity'. The occult is also steeped in mystical and mysterious things.
God communicates to us to demystify things. It makes things CLEAR. Mysticism is the opposite of clarity. Mysticism involves secret pathways travelled by 'psychonauts' - whereas the God wishes that we travel the straight road - the road that is protected and clear.
No Truth. I think God should be the most important thing in our life and not the Scripture. Scripture should only be GUIDE to God, then we should go beyond the GUIDE itself and not make it our idol. That is my contention. My belief in God is most important to me. But my own reliable guide is my reason, intuition and imaginations.
And we do not differ in this respect.
You are free to ponder on these things but I think that the end of the road has been reached in this matter as I see it (though that is not absolute).
You have reached the end of the road truth because you have found your absolute truth in scripture. I have not. We both have been honest in our positions. But the difference between you and I are that there will always be room for further intellectual and spiritual development as an individual. You are stuck with your current understanding...
Lote you keep making these sorts of statements ad infinitum hoping that repeating it will make it valid. It doesn't.
Peace.
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Your liberty to smoke a cigarette may be the restriction of my freedom to breathe fresh air.
You have no idea of personal liberty and freedom and responsibility. You have previously implied that Universal Declaration is a satanic invention!
You are confusing what you mean by absolute truth when you use it in relation to the reading. I have stated my views on absolute truth on a separate thread. It's not that I have found 'scripture' (a weasel word) to be absolute truth; the reading IS absolute truth because it has no falsehood. Its existence is independent of me or my act of finding it.
To you it has no falsehood. To me it is an interpretation of the wordless reality of God. This is the difference. I don't call scripture a false but an interpretation in words the wordless reality that is God.
Your antipathy towards scripture is extreme and ill founded.
I view scripture for what it is a GUIDE and not the absolute truth. Nothing extreme there.
Lote just like I am free of religion, I am free of mysticism. In the reading the God does not use the word mystery or mysticism. These are concepts that men create - and mystery is a greater part of the doctrines on 'Christ' and 'Trinity'. The occult is also steeped in mystical and mysterious things.
Your seem to be ignorant of mysticism and meditation and how they are very important in the religious experiecne. Truth, prophet Muhammad did not reach out to the highest heavens for the revealations, he descended to the very core of his soul in a "meditative trance". Why are you ignoring this very fact of religious experience?
God communicates to us to demystify things. It makes things CLEAR. Mysticism is the opposite of clarity. Mysticism involves secret pathways travelled by 'psychonauts' - whereas the God wishes that we travel the straight road - the road that is protected and clear.
But you think God as a rational object who sits on his mighty throne. This can't be true. Listen to a variety of spiritual experience the have one thing in common that is God is beyond Reason and Language. Don't be ignorant of other types of religious experience...
No Truth. I think God should be the most important thing in our life and not the Scripture. Scripture should only be GUIDE to God, then we should go beyond the GUIDE itself and not make it our idol. That is my contention. My belief in God is most important to me. But my own reliable guide is my reason, intuition and imaginations.
And we do not differ in this respect.
That is very Good.
Lote you keep making these sorts of statements ad infinitum hoping that repeating it will make it valid. It doesn't.
You keep going about absolute truth Truth of scripture? Your rejection of commonality between other forms of spirituality makes you very ignorant of the infinite possibility of the wordless reality that we call God...
I believe there is no point in debating with you when you have closed your mind to other possibilities and interpretation of the Divine...
Regards,
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To you it has no falsehood. To me it is an interpretation of the wordless reality of God. This is the difference. I don't call scripture a false but an interpretation in words the wordless reality that is God.
Lote you have thought about these things extensively, but you have built a view of it in which you are beginning to believe the spin you have doctored regarding it. Despite correcting your misuse of words, for example 'scripture' you continue to use it to justify your view.
When we think about the world; when we exchange ideas there must be a form for that exchange; the mind thinks in these exchange units. A profoundly deaf person (prelingual) who does not know words etc. will think in the signs they know - a visual language. A strange concept to be sure but it's true.
So the reading and any other message is shared through 'words' (in the broad sense). 'Words' are a bridge between entities and the way our minds function. Is there any point in sending a message that cannot be received? Radio waves packed full of information sail by your crainum every second yet you are oblivious - you can't sense it for one, but even if you could it's modulated/coded in a way you cannot process.
So everything requires an interpretation; and even the reading when read in the original language is open to interpretation. What I would argue is that even with the divergent interpretations it remains true. See people have looked into the not just the semantics but the syntax of koranic constructs - and even there is no clash or falsehood in the derived meaning or interpretation if you like. It is a book of tremendous truth, absolute truth.
What you are REALLY arguing is not about the absolute truth of the message at all. I've defined what that is and demostrated how the reading qualifies for the term. You have a problem with completeness.
Whether the reading is complete and sufficient is your real problem.
Lote just like I am free of religion, I am free of mysticism. In the reading the God does not use the word mystery or mysticism. These are concepts that men create - and mystery is a greater part of the doctrines on 'Christ' and 'Trinity'. The occult is also steeped in mystical and mysterious things.
Your seem to be ignorant of mysticism and meditation and how they are very important in the religious experiecne. Truth, prophet Muhammad did not reach out to the highest heavens for the revealations, he descended to the very core of his soul in a "meditative trance". Why are you ignoring this very fact of religious experience?
I don't seem ignorant of mysticism or meditation except to you. That is a subjective truth for you and what to you justifies your bashing of that particular straw man.
I don't know where you got your information regarding prophet Muhammad undertaking soul searching trances etc. I have no knowledge of such and therefore cannot pursue it. Can you admit that what you are thinking is nothing but conjecture?
Thus can one ignore conjecture? Absolutely.
I pursue clarity, not mystery.
God communicates to us to demystify things. It makes things CLEAR. Mysticism is the opposite of clarity. Mysticism involves secret pathways travelled by 'psychonauts' - whereas the God wishes that we travel the straight road - the road that is protected and clear.
But you think God as a rational object who sits on his mighty throne. This can't be true. Listen to a variety of spiritual experience the have one thing in common that is God is beyond Reason and Language. Don't be ignorant of other types of religious experience...
You are bashing straw men Lote. I didn't say these things and you are basically talking rubbish.
You keep going about absolute truth Truth of scripture? Your rejection of commonality between other forms of spirituality makes you very ignorant of the infinite possibility of the wordless reality that we call God...
I believe there is no point in debating with you when you have closed your mind to other possibilities and interpretation of the Divine...
Lote your problem is that you are imprecise with your words and have the habit of 'word transplantation' - from your ideas to my mouth.
You also confuse regularly the two concepts of the "God" (a noun) and "the Divine" (an adjective). There is no such thing as "the Divine" no matter how you might construct or imagine it. This is only the beginning of your confusion - your writings demonstrate constant errors like this.
The word 'divine' is actually another weasel word - one which in reality means nothing and anything at the same time. Here is an Oxford definition...
In its strictest sense, divine means associated with or derived from God ( the divine right of kings), but it has also been used to describe anything that is admirable or treasured ( | her wedding dress was divine).
Associated with God... and that gets to the heart of it really. You are one who associates with the God.
Peace.
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I don't know where you got your information regarding prophet Muhammad undertaking soul searching trances etc. I have no knowledge of such and therefore cannot pursue it.
That proves you are ignorant of scripture! You are ignorant of the religious experience. Read the revelations verses and compare this with experiences of Hebrew Prophets, Seers, Sages, Meditators and Mystics and then you realise the commonality between all the experiences.
I am ignorant? I don't think so.
You want to be sure the words in the scripture are actual words of God but you know you can't be and thats your problem. And you convince yourself that you are certain because there is no way around the fact that it came through a human being. I think Mr. Edip Yuksel may have hinted that (though I can be wrong on this). That is why he promotes code 19, this code 19 is also very important to you. Even though Ayman may have shown the fallacy in its belief. And you fear me for undermining your certainty of beliefs in the scripture. If my words where nonesense then you would not have opened the "hyporcite" thread and you could have ignored my words. But by the very nature of you now attacking my language has shown the soundness of my initial arguments.
But truth don't fear me for undermining your certainty. I am not trying to undermine anyone's certainty. I am trying to show the religious experience for what it is and how this experience comes about in view to understanding the nature of God and religion...
Note - I use SCRIPTURE to refer to all scriptures. Every scripture is A TRUTH.
Regards,
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Salaams All,
I don't know where you got your information regarding prophet Muhammad undertaking soul searching trances etc. I have no knowledge of such and therefore cannot pursue it.
That proves you are ignorant of scripture! You are ignorant of the religious experience. Read the revelations verses and compare this with experiences of Hebrew Prophets, Seers, Sages, Meditators and Mystics and then you realise the commonality between all the experiences.
I am ignorant? I don't think so.
You really have no idea of what is in the Quran, now do you!? ((You did ignore Someone's question to you about the Quran on another thread!))
Lote, I dare you to bring one Ayah from the Quran that speaks of Prophet Muhammad going through such a trance experience!You want to be sure the words in the scripture are actual words of God but you know you can't be and thats your problem. And you convince yourself that you are certain because there is no way around the fact that it came through a human being. I think Mr. Edip Yuksel may have hinted that (though I can be wrong on this). That is why he promotes code 19, this code 19 is also very important to you. Even though Ayman may have shown the fallacy in its belief. And you fear me for undermining your certainty of beliefs in the scripture.
But truth don't fear me for undermining your certainty.
Truth fears you!? shock Maybe that is what you wish to believe. Are you using this tactic to turn the subject into a different direction!?
If my words where nonesense then you would not have opened the "hyporcite" thread and you could have ignored my words. But by the very nature of you now attacking my language has shown the soundness of my initial arguments.
Why do you insist that it was you who were meant on that thread? How can you be so sure? If you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to fear. And if somebody did not point a finger at you, why are you then pointing a finger at yourself!!?? Why didn't I believe that that thread was addressed to me!?(btw Everybody on this forum have been called hypocrites and all the names you can think of.. by a poster a while ago yet no one even cared!!!)
And again by going back and forth to that thread you are changing the subject. Why?Every scripture is A TRUTH.
And then? What does "A TRUTH" say about your belief?
Scripture to you is a maze, a handicap, a limiting "human" product! I can only see despise in your position towards the Quran.Hebrew Prophets, Seers, Sages, Meditators and Mystics,,etc..
They seems very sacred to you. You keep bringing them up in every post!!! Despising Scripture while idolizing humans!!!???
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Salaam everyone
Just a couple of points i just wanted to leave before i go to sleep.
- There are too many homosexuals saying they can't help it. Studies have tried to change homosexuals but have just failed.
- The Quran does not explcitly forbid One man from loving another man (the last time i checked)
- People who compare the "crime" of homosexuality with crimes such as peadophilia, rape and murder, are Just silly. Rape and murder bring unhappiness upon other people, whereas homosexuality does not affect anyone. (please note, a man raping another man is not homosexuality, it is Rape.)