homosexuality, the way forward?
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Peace,
Tay likened the exile option which Khizar suggested as being like exiling people with Down's Syndrome and autism etc. However the problem of "consenting adults" which saves the homosexual bacon in one argument (ie. homsexuality being like pedophilia) now is unhelpful.
People with autism do not have a choice one way or another to change. See even if we put aside the causation of homosexuality - the matter at hand is - do homosexuals have a choice? The answer is a resounding YES. This is not about choice of whether they are attracted to men rather than women. This is about choice to act upon it or not. They have that choice and exercise that choice. Thus exile based on behavioural choice does make sense.
The other issue with 'homophobia' is that a 'homophobe' once meant someone who hated people who practise homosexuality. I suspect it now means someone who the homosexuals want to hate.
There is always two sides to these matters. The homosexuals are quick to point out what offends them about what heterosexually oriented people do towards and say about them and shout this until the message is accepted by sympathising apologists.
BUT what about the other side of the argument? Have they not got the right to say what offends them about the homosexual community? Can people not say that they are offended by the parading of flagrant homosexuality? Why don't homosexuals listen for a change and cease the debauchery?
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Hello Damon,
"..they have a mental sickness that needs to be treated..."
I could not help but replying to this. Homosexuals do not consider themselves that they have mental a sickness...and no please don't bring paedophiles and rapists into this. Homosexuality is consensual. Mutal Attraction, as opposed to paedophiles and rapists. Evidence are there that they are born in this way. Paedophiles and rapists are not born in this way. Their testimonies do not reflect this on the whole. But I am sure you will insist that they "CHOSE" to be like this and I respect your view though I do not agree with it.
No, I am not interested in your position which is that there are Scientists who know better than GOD.
Again this is absurd. Scientist don't know more than God. They can only rely on observational evidence to make a conclusion. Science is objective. But it seem you are not interested in objectivity or don't value science much. All I can say here is Knowledge leads to understanding, understanding leads to insight and it is this insight that leads to an enlightenment which allows us to abandon our childish of thinking and see the world in a more compassionate sense.
Aahh, trying to divert the topic, heh? Hadithists and their logic concerning hadith has nothing to do with me and my logic concerning homosexualism. Comparing apples and oranges don't help you to reach the truth.
No it was not a diversion but I have observed that hadithist continually bash you with endless hadiths instead of using their reason and you have been doing this with quranic verses.
When they say that they don't have a choice and that they are born that way, yes they are lying.
OK. All homosexuals are liars. I get you. Though I don't to believe you.
Then you, my friend, have no argument. As a believer of Quran and scripture, you no longer have anything to argue about. The only reason you will continue to plead your pro-hs case is if you do not fully believe and trust in The Quran which I will be getting to next.
What? No argument? Why not? Is this a FREE MINDS FORUM or NOT? If every argument has to conform to scripture then it is not FREE MINDS is it? You should have a banner headline saying. THIS IS A FREE-MINDS FORUM BUT ALL DEBATES HAS TO CONFORM TO SCRIPTURE. I for one would have not joined in the first place if this was the case. I am here to debate and discuss and perhaps learn something from each other. I can't use scripture to close my mind. Question everything Damon don't accept anything.
I cannot agree with your agenda of NOT believing in The Quran wholeheartedly and try to use The Quran to justify your stance of pro-gay.
Have I used any quranic verses to justify a "pro-gay" stance as you say? Show me one example? I know what is in every scripture regarding homosexuality. But is standing up for TOLERANCE, COMPASSION and UNDERSTANDING anyway pro-gay? I think not.
This Quran could not have been produced without God, but it is to authenticate what is already present, and to give detail to the Scripture in which there is no doubt, from the Lord of the worlds.
Your belief is that these are very words of God. And I respect your belief. But I say to you because scripture came through a flawed human being it will always be A TRUTH, and not the ABSOLUTE TRUTH because God is beyond Reason and Language. If God is beyond Language and Reason then anything we can say about the divine will always be an "interpretation" in words of the "wordless" and "reasonless" Truth that is God. All the great sages, seers, meditators and mystics in the bygone ages of the world have come to this conclusion themselves. And I agree with them too...
If you are in doubt to this assertion in The Quran, then the Quran itself issues a challenge to you concerning your doubt of this. They are in the next two verses after this one.
I do not doubt the Divinity of Quran. Prophet Muhammad did enter the divine realm in a meditative trance. This is self-evident from the reading. But the reading itself is A TRUTH and not the WHOLE TRUTH because no human mind can grasp the infinity of the Divine let alone write it down with words.
Or do they say he invented it? Say "Then bring a chapter like it, and call upon whoever you can besides God if you are truthful!"
No, they have lied about that which they did not have knowledge of, nor has its explanation come to them. It is also how those before them denied, so see how was the retribution of the wicked!
Lets think about this. If scripture claims to be authentic how can we be sure? Does mere claim to authenticity make it authentic? How does mere claim make something authentic in general?
And the main challenge to this view comes from 482.....
Do they not reflect on the Quran? If it was from any other than God they would have found it very different.
And yes I have reflected on the Quran and it is a great spiritual work but it is still A TRUTH not the WHOLE truth. If you read the quranic verses on the revelations itself then you would have realised that the encounter with the Divine has more commonality with the experience of many sages, seers and mystics who have come and gone throughout the bygone ages of the world. Even meditators and mystics of today have similiar experiences when they enter the realm of the Divine.
My friend, I was NEVER upset on this issue and I have NEVER taken anything in this thread personally. Trust me bro.
I thought you did because you started writing in VERY LARGE THREATNING FONTS. You scared the pants of me mate !!!
-) just kidding -)Have you noted the one whose god is his ego? Consequently, GOD sends him astray, despite his knowledge, seals his hearing and his mind, and places a veil on his eyes. Who then can guide him, after such a decision by GOD? Would you not take heed?
My God is the God of COMPASSION. "He" starts his Scripture with these words
"In the name of the God who is MOST COMPASSIONATE..."
This is the principle I aply to my life. Human compassion is not easy Damon. To be compassionate requires a degree of dedication, knowledge and understanding. Human compassion needs to be nurtured and cultivated because it does not always comes easily to us...
Anyway this has been very interesting debate. I have said as much I can say on this matter. I hope I have been consistent in my views throughout in respects to Pro-Tolerance, Pro-compassion and Pro-understanding...
If your reply is interesting I may reply but for now Adios...
Regards,
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ahoy hoy
tay! someone has an open mind on this forum! maybe there is a god afterall......
If you think to yourself about your own sexual orientation (if you are heterosexual) you will realise that you are very much against the thought of homosexuals, the idea may seem repulsive. Similiarly for homosexuals the idea of heterosexuals 'engaging' seems foul. This is not something of personal choice, im not sure which sea creature it is, i think the seahorse, but that chooses its own sexual orientation. We are not like that. So how can you blame these people for being this way. Its beyond me to do it, its beyond me to condemn it, it may not seem natural but and im assuming most of you follow the quran, does it not say in the quran that there are many things in this world and in the afterlife that are beyond our comprehension and understanding.....
toodles
the kebab monster
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Khi- Salam. Y then do most ppl who engage in HS have acquired aids n the HIV virus. I know tht any uncontrolled sexual relationship can result in aids being tranferred. Thts y it ought 2 be organized n their ouigt 2 be a leagsl marriage contract be4 the couple goes into each other. Get it now?
Get it. I agree with you on this and the rest.
Just want to throw in some random info, HIV is a version of the simian immunodeficiency virus (SIV) which is usually found in chimpanzees and other primates living in West Africa. SIV do not cause AIDS to apes and monkeys though. Only in humans does it cause AIDS. HIV is first recorded from sailors (IIRC) who had traveled to West Africa and then goes all over the world, spreading AIDS wherever they stop.
Considering what we know about how HIV is transmitted, I shudder at the thought of what might cause the jump from chimps to humans in the first place. It might be an act more appalling than what we are discussing in this thread. shock shock shock ?
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Peace all,
Just want to throw in a hopefully witty comment here,
"Just because something is natural does not make it morally right."
I see many posters committing the naturalistic fallacy here.
And to those who offer exile as a solution I thought the gays already did that? I mean, they do tend to live with themselves in self-made exiles, don't they?
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Considering what we know about how HIV is transmitted, I shudder at the thought of what might cause the jump from chimps to humans in the first place. It might be an act more appalling than what we are discussing in this thread. shock shock shock ?
It's probably not as lurid as what you are suggesting. It was once reported that Polio vaccine in Africa was cultured in the liver of green monkeys and the injection of thousands of humans allowed infection after a mutation.
Another theory is that these monkeys were used as food sources and it may have been contracted by eating of the monkeys.
The modern spread of AIDS / HIV has been tracked down to an index case. I remember there was an article about an English patient who died in the sixties of a mystery disease. The physician involved was clever and insightful enough to store some of the serum and this has tested HIV positive apparently, though this whole story has been doubted because of possible contamination of the specimens in the lab.
The spread into various countries has also been tracked quite meticulously. The spread into the USA happenned through Haiti and the homosexual scene importing the virus through gay promiscuity. I believe it was an airline steward who was responsible for bringing it into the US through San Francisco.
Some of this is from memory so you'll have to confirm and check for exact details.
Moreover in a little net research I've found that there are now theories that are different to these well known ones, of the AIDS epidemic starting in New York following the introduction of a new Hepatitis B vaccine first tested in gay males. There is even the theory that HIV itself does not cause AIDS!
http//www.biblebelievers.org.au/46a.htm
http//www.ourcivilisation.com/aids/hivexist/index.htm
Regards.
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peace All,
After reading brother Tay's post, I began thinking about what I would say. I think my main point would be that it is unatural. Thus I began thinking about examples of things that are unatural (go against our nature, or laws of nature etc) that are clearly beneficial for us. I never really came up with anything solid, thus can I request others to think about this and list them here...
thanks.
Wakas
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Peace Truth,
You stated,
Tay likened the exile option which Khizar suggested as being like exiling people with Down's Syndrome and autism etc. However the problem of "consenting adults" which saves the homosexual bacon in one argument (ie. homsexuality being like pedophilia) now is unhelpful.
People with autism do not have a choice one way or another to change.
Excellent point. The only problem is that Khizar did not distinguish practicing homosexuals from non-practicing. And yes, there are people whom are homosexual and choose not to partake in the physical aspect of it, though I dare not feign a knowledge of this statistic. However, I would venture to guess that the majority of homosexuals who do practice the physical aspect, do so in the privacy of their homes. Do we exile these people also? If so, how do we go about obtaining this information?
Thus exile based on behavioural choice does make sense.
That is your opinion, and you are certainly entitled to it, although I disagree and see no such connection. Where do we draw the line on behavioral choices that don't mesh with societal norms?
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Wakas,
This, to me, is the real heart of the matter. I've been thinking about this for quite some time now, and whenever I imagine this conversation, I keep coming up with the same imagined response of "It's unnatural, it's just wrong", with nothing logically concrete to compare it to.
I don't think that's good enough, because being human, I am prone to carrying cultural biases. And I couldn't live with myself making a decision, such as exile, for someone else when I know nothing of their situation, nor can I even compare their situation to something which I do know something about.
Hence, all I think I can offer is help if someone feels they have a problem. I can listen and I can help them evaluate/analyze the roots. But I cannot cast judgement, and remain honest with myself, as much as I've tried.
Peace,
Tay -
Hello Tay,
Hence, all I think I can offer is help if someone feels they have a problem. I can listen and I can help them evaluate/analyze the roots. But I cannot cast judgement, and remain honest with myself, as much as I've tried.
Me too. To cast judgement like this means we have a superior morality than others. I don't think I can claim to have superior morality...
I found this really funny in your response to Khizar and his exile plans...
-) -)Do we need a special police force to infiltrate people's homes to make sure they are having sex with the opposite gender?
What do we do about masturbation? Should there be rules in place to make sure that people are masturbating to the right fantasies?serious point but very amusing -) -)
Regards,
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While reading about AIDS in the 80's and its coming to worldwide attention I found the following paragraph that might shed light on the amount of sexuality in the homosexual community - through an indirect marker for anal sex - the use of nitrites.
The paragraph is in relation to homosexuals who developed KS and PCP the prototypical AIDS conditions (KS= Kaposi's Sarcoma, PCP = Pneumocystic Carinii Pneumonia)
It was also observed that all patients used nitrite inhalants. Poppers became fashionable among gay men in 1972. By 1981, legal sales had reached $250 million annually and National Institute of Drug Abuse reported that more than 5 million people were using them at least once a week. Drug manufacturers extensively promoted them in gay publications as "better living through chemistry". Gay men used them heavily as relaxants to facilitate anal intercourse. But heavy use of nitrites was known to cause severe symptoms and immunosuppression, and there was evidence that they were also mutagenic and carcinogenic.
$250 million worth of nitrites being used annually by a mere 2-4% of the US population (homosexual men) to facilitate anal sex. That's 1981 money we're talking about. The theory of platonic homosexuality needs to be put to bed.
Regards.
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Peace all,
Dear Lote Tree,
This can go on forever. You have your position on this matter and I have mine. And obviously neither one of us are budging from our respective positions. For the record, BEFORE you assume that I am a Quranic Puritan and don't know how to think independent of the Quran, you need to click on my profile and view my past posts here. Then you will realize that you made an untrue accusation. Anyway, I bid you peace.
As for my challenge and my interpretation of 781, they have not been answered. If anyone else here who is pro-tolerance of the gay life and they wish to tackle my challenge and interpretation of Lot's community, I'm all ears.
One.
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BTW It's important to note that was LEGAL sales; it does not address the illegal trafficking in nitrites.
And before presenting nonsense arguments like platonic homosexuality and hanging one's arguments on it - why not first establish whether there is such a thing and how prevalent it is.
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Hello Damon,
This can go on forever. You have your position on this matter and I have mine. And obviously neither one of us are budging from our respective positions.
No problem Damon.
I believe that the idea is not to agree with each other but air our thoughts so that we can develop and refine our own understanding...
For the record, BEFORE you assume that I am a Quranic Puritan and don't know how to think independent of the Quran, you need to click on my profile and view my past posts here. Then you will realize that you made an untrue accusation. Anyway, I bid you peace.
If this is the case then I stand corrected on this.
I bid you Adieu too...Regards,
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It's too late now, you're already taking part... now get back in here! twisted wink
I guess your right, what the heck, let me present my theory, tell me what you think.
I think that homosexuality is basically a disease or like a sexual fetish, this is simply because of the diversity in qualities within men and women. If any individual prefers qualities that are 'common' in their own gender, e.g female prefer feminine qualities, it's ok and natural and genetic.
This is simply because we can find 'manly' women and feminine men that have the qualities, so basically we can find the qualities required in either gender. Seeking for a partner of the opposite sex keeps things the way God intended, i.e men and women get married and produce children, that is the design i personally understand and I'm nont imposing it on others.
Therefore I think that if individuals are sincerely looking for a partner with a set of desired qualities that are beyond physical then they can find them in either gender, but if people are more interested in lust and sexual fetished then they will simply seek for what they want physically.
Therefore I personally that if society was to be in a spiritually uplifted state then we would be beyond this and physical things won't matter as much because we'll be seeking the correct qualities in a person rather than looking for the correct bra size and correct shapeand size of body parts etc!
I have no right to tell any individual what to like and what not to, these are just my honest opinions and my understanding of this situation, I am also making a few assumptions e.g. that every individual can reach a certain level of understanding that free's them from oppresive ideologies and teachings.
Peace
Nural -
I guess your right, what the heck, let me present my theory, tell me what you think.
Its about time!!! -)
Good job you got off your backside and done some thinking of your own instead of prancing around on the edges... -) -)
Get in there man! Get dirty (no pun intended!) -)
Regards,
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$250 million worth of nitrites being used annually by a mere 2-4% of the US population (homosexual men) to facilitate anal sex. That's 1981 money we're talking about.....
Thank you Truth for this interesting but very amusing fact -) -)
Regards,
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ahoy hoy
$250 million worth of nitrites being used annually by a mere 2-4% of the US population (homosexual men) to facilitate anal sex
i dont think quoting figures that show money is being spent to pleasure the gay community is a credible argument to argue against homosexuality, whatever your views you will be able to find something that the US government is spending money on that seems like a total waste, personally id rather they spent $250 million to keep the smile on gay's rather that use that money to massacre innocent civilians in their own country.
To the idea installed by a few that we should send homosexuals in exile or to another location within a country is ludicrous, its exactly the kind of backward thinking that savaged medicinal progress througout the middle ages, its a kind of ignorance that breeds stupidity, we need to look forward to increase our own understanding and knowledge.
'all that youve left behind, will come back to confront you if you turn around'
toodles
the kebab monster
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Peace all,
Something caught my interest.
I think that homosexuality is basically a disease or like a sexual fetish
That's It!!! I've been trying to think of the description that I had in mind when it comes to this subject and I think Fetish is probably the best way to describe the mentality of HS's. Just as there are people who have feet fetishes, this too is a fetish. I even know one guy who has a fetish for sucking women's toes. (when I was little kid, this dirtbag even propositioned my mom )
Anyway I think the HS fetish is like mostly all other sexual fetishes. It begins with a dissatisfaction and content with the natural design we are made for and a wish to explore beyond what GOD has intended. I believe this to be the case for those who choose this lifestyle even though they have not been molested as children. Some people are just so obsessed with sex and reaching the point of esctacy that they are willing to explore and pursue any and all avenues. For the most part, I think these people are basically mentally depraved perverts (my opinion).
if people are more interested in lust and sexual fetishes then they will simply seek for what they want physically.
I agree wholeheartedly and I believe we are getting to the root of this issue concerning alot of gays.
And they cover their private parts.
Except around their mates, or those who are their dependants, they are free from blame.
But whosever seeks anything beyond this, then these are the transgressors.
Salaam.
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Peace Damon,
I understand your point and I agree that there are sick and twisted people but I think there are people who aren't like that but are gay so to assume that all HS's are sick and twisted; would be a transgression in my opinion. I also think the story of Lot has been traditionaly misinterpreted. Hear me out (these are just my opinions and thoughts, I am not trying to teach, but I want to learn so my ears are open)-
For example at the time of Lot in his community, almost every or a great majority was practising this and it was condemned, the whole society was involved in this 'sin' because the whole society recieved the punishment/retribution (maybe not the kids, but the truth about all that will come out in judment Day) apart from the believers. The women must have played a role too.
Todays issue with homosexuality is totally different because this is a minority amongst many communities whereas the story in the Quran was about a 'whole' community and their wrongdoing (whether this was actually homosexuality and nothing more is still being debated and seems to be unknown at the moment in this thread, maybe someone can clarify). Todays gays don't harm the average heterosexual, they only harm themselves if there are any harms in the practice.
Therefore I personally think that many peoples extreme stance on this situation is partially unjustified and is irrational, and also maybe based on an unclear interpretation of Scripture. I am not assuming anything about the Scripture (whether it prohibits the practice or doesn't, I haven't reached certainty in this topic) but I would like to see a good discussion on the verses regarding this topic.
I just don't agree with the extreme stance but I also don't agree on the practice but my way of solving it would be to educate and for me to take an extreme stance the way some of you have, I will need some evidence of clear harms to the whole society of this practice. If it affects me then I would have a serious problem, for example if the practice increased contageous diseases in society then I would have a problem. By contageous I don't mean STD but something that can be passed from a stranger to another stranger with little contact or even just a handshake.
I will admit I haven't read every reply in this thread so I might have missed something big but I don't think that promoting hatred towards anything will solve the issue, it will only cause more problems. Promote understanding.
Peace
Nural
