homosexuality, the way forward?
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Isn't this interesting logic? So we rejected traditional hadith. Why not reject the best hadith (quran). Infact, why stop there?... how about rejecting God altogether? roll
I see you refer Quran as a hadith? What does hadith mean? Is it not sayings of the prophet hadiths?
God is not the Scripture. Scripture is a guide to understanding God.
Don't idolise Quran, Zenje, like hadithist idolise the Prophet. Scripture is an interpretation of the divine in words. Try to go beyond it. Use your Reason but don't make Quran your REASON.Oh and btw, the scripture is no obstacle at all, as a matter of fact, makes the road to spiritual fulfillment much easier and smoother. D
Thats well and good for you and I am happy for you. -)
Regards,
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In effect, abandon your thinking mind...
Looks like you have already abandoned yours. If you have an argument then put it forward...
Regards,
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Peace Lote Tree,
Don't idolise Quran, Zenje, like hadithist idolise the Prophet. Scripture is an interpretation of the divine in words. Try to go beyond it. Use your Reason but don't make Quran your REASON
I don't idolize quran. If you only knew how my 'close' my understanding is to yours. However, I do use it, as I said, as a tool to the path to God... and it has proved more than helpful so far. D
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Khi- Dont u believe in heaven n hell where one wld go after judgement passed by GOD?
Perahps in symbolic and metaphoric terms and not in a literal sense...
Khi- Hell is a dimension where ppl wld eperience extreme heat. The allegory of this heat intensity is also given in the Quran
If you cannot do this - and you can never do this - then beware of the Hellfire, whose fuel is people and rocks; it awaits the disbelievers.
Thus it will be very aweful. Also the skin which conatins the pain receptors will be refreshed again n again
Surely, those who disbelieve in our revelations, we will condemn them to the hellfire. Whenever their skins are burnt, we will give them new skins. Thus, they will suffer continuously. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise. Thus we must be aware of the punishment n do our best 2 be righteous.This is a physical description of hell. That is why human fear it. Without a personal revelation Khizar it will be unjust for God to make us suffer like this for all eternity. But we must look at heaven and hell in a more symbolic and metaphoric terms.
Khi- GOD says many times in the Quran tht we must fear HIM. Thus we must always be aware of the punishment of GOD. We shld not fear hell itself but GOD Who has made it n HE is the one Who throws the wrongdoers into it.
Fear out of love of God is much much better than fear of God out of Eternal Punishment....
Khi- While it is true tht reason, logic n intellect leads 2 GOD we must also use the heart. There r ppl who rely on the heart's feelings alone, which is wrong. Then there r those who rely only on reson n intellect which is also wrong. I use both coz both were given 2 me by GOD. Thus i use reason 2 come 2 GOD n then i obviously fear Him n repent 2 Hin whenver i can. IMO this is the best way 2 become pious n righteous.
Then you are on right track Khizar....
Khi- Wht do u mean? Shld we cast the Quran aside? The Quran has been sent down as a mercy n guidance 2 us from GOD. N we must obey n do our best 2 follow whts in there. GOD Bless!
Use quran as a guidance Khizar in understanding God...Reality of God is inifinately complex and therefore no scripture can do justice to this reality with words...
Regards,
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Perahps in symbolic and metaphoric terms and not in a literal sense...
Khi- Salam. This doesnt make any sense 2 me. If everything in the Quran is just symbolic then our life here on earth is perhaps also only symbolic. Rem tht everything is an image created in our brain. We can never reach the original. Hell n heaven r again simulations created in our brain(not the flesh brain, the meta physical one) by GOD. But we will surely FEEL them n thts wht cnts, the feeling. If ur nerves r dead it doesnt matter whether i hurt u, u wont feel anything.
This is a physical description of hell. That is why human fear it. Without a personal revelation Khizar it will be unjust for God to make us suffer like this for all eternity. But we must look at heaven and hell in a more symbolic and metaphoric terms.
Khi- I didnt get wht meant by 'WITHOUT A PERSONAL REVELATION it wld be unjust 4 GOD 2 make us suffer'. Do u mean tht since the Quran wasnt personally revealed 2 all of us thus the verse i quoted must be symbolic? Well the thing is we have been warned in a Book tht we if we study it can see tht It'S truly GOD's Word n it's mathematical miracle shld leave no doubt. Then again it's idolatry if maintained uptil death which will receive eternal punishment. But it cld be debated wheter hell wld be annihilated altogether one day as bro Edip has written in his article. However our feelings in Hell or Heaven wld be like real life experience, infact much more real than here, imo.
Fear out of love of God is much much better than fear of God out of Eternal Punishment....
Khi- Id say fear GOD both out of love n the punishment which we wld get otherwise. Only fearing GOD out of love doesnt make any sense 2 me. If there was no punishment/pain/suffering then there wld be no fear.
Then you are on right track Khizar....
Khi- Thanx n Praise be 2 GOD.
Use quran as a guidance Khizar in understanding God...Reality of God is inifinately complex and therefore no scripture can do justice to this reality with words...
Khi- True n the Quran mentions this Itself
Say, "If the ocean were ink for the words of my Lord, the ocean would run out, before the words of my Lord run out, even if we double the ink supply."
If all the trees on earth were made into pens, and the ocean supplied the ink, augmented by seven more oceans, the words of GOD would not run out. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.
GOD Bless! -
Khi- Salam. This doesnt make any sense 2 me. If everything in the Quran is just symbolic then our life here on earth is perhaps also only symbolic. Rem tht everything is an image created in our brain. We can never reach the original. Hell n heaven r again simulations created in our brain(not the flesh brain, the meta physical one) by GOD. But we will surely FEEL them n thts wht cnts, the feeling. If ur nerves r dead it doesnt matter whether i hurt u, u wont feel anything.
Khizar, is causing physical pain the only way to punishment? I believe that True Punishment is living with the consequences of your actions...
Khi- I didnt get wht meant by 'WITHOUT A PERSONAL REVELATION it wld be unjust 4 GOD 2 make us suffer'. Do u mean tht since the Quran wasnt personally revealed 2 all of us thus the verse i quoted must be symbolic?
What I meant was that without God giving you a personal revelation then it would be unjust for God to make us suffer eternally because hell is such a terrible place. I know we have scripture but it is an interpretation of the divine as opposed to absolute truth.
I know you have said the mathematical miracle is the final proof... I will wait for Mr. Yuksel on this...
Fear out of love of God is much much better than fear of God out of Eternal Punishment....
Khi- Id say fear GOD both out of love n the punishment which we wld get otherwise. Only fearing GOD out of love doesnt make any sense 2 me. If there was no punishment/pain/suffering then there wld be no fear.
The Universe and all that is in it Khizar is such a wonderful and amazing thing that we can experience with our senses. God's creation is majestically beautiful. When I contemplate the natural world and all that is in it my heart is filled with love and joy. Do you want to love out of fear of punishment of this God or love God for "his" infinite perfections?
Regards,
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Peace Anwar,
You stated
"spiritual fulfilment" is a load of crap with little substance. That's why it is "spiritual".
As opposed to what? Physical fulfillment?
I'm interested in what sort of fulfillment you might find in your faith that does not involve your spirit.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace,
To those arguing by using hellfire as their arsenal...
...all of us will get a taste of it by the way.
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ahoy hoy
The Universe and all that is in it Khizar is such a wonderful and amazing thing that we can experience with our senses. God's creation is majestically beautiful.
im curious lote, if you beleive that all of gods creations are beautrifull, and i do to, do you also think that homosexuals carry an equal beauty....many people will argue this saying that homosexuality is not one of gods creations, its one of man's flaws ....what do you think.... the argument over weather it is nature or nurture that makes people homosexual took another turn in my mind recently, i learnt of a man (whos name i cant remember) who claimed to have isolated a 'gay gene' that predisposed people to being homosexual, the implications of his findings were that masses of people were carrying out abortions in fear that they child mite be homsexual. the research was later proved incorrect and so the nature war lost a battle.
I think because no body really knows what causes our sexual orientation, no body really has the right to critisize or judge...
toodles
the kebab monster
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(ignore this, having post problems..)
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ahoy hoy
The Universe and all that is in it Khizar is such a wonderful and amazing thing that we can experience with our senses. God's creation is majestically beautiful.
im curious lote, if you beleive that all of gods creations are beautrifull, and i do to, do you also think that homosexuals carry an equal beauty....
the kebab monsterI see individuals as individuals regardless of their gender or sexual orientation...
Regards,
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Salam Lote Tree,
Khizar, is causing physical pain the only way to punishment? I believe that True Punishment is living with the consequences of your actions...
Khi- Again i must say tht the consequences of our actions in this world r by no means comparable 2 those in the hereafter. I gave u an exampe where some terrible drug dealers diie a very good death in the wordly sense. Yet GOD will surely punish them. N yes continuous physical pain is the greatest suffering tht can be afflicted upon someone.
What I meant was that without God giving you a personal revelation then it would be unjust for God to make us suffer eternally because hell is such a terrible place. I know we have scripture but it is an interpretation of the divine as opposed to absolute truth.
Khi- The subject of Hell's suffering being eternal or not cld be debated as i mentioned earlier. Scripture is not a human interpretation of the divine. It is inspired by GOD Himself into the language of the human.
I know you have said the mathematical miracle is the final proof... I will wait for Mr. Yuksel on this...
Khi- Very well.
The Universe and all that is in it Khizar is such a wonderful and amazing thing that we can experience with our senses. God's creation is majestically beautiful. When I contemplate the natural world and all that is in it my heart is filled with love and joy. Do you want to love out of fear of punishment of this God or love God for "his" infinite perfections?
Khi- U didnt get me right. We dont love GOD out of fear. Love is a separate issue. We fear GOD coz of the punishment which wld afflict us if we did wrong. Loving GOD is an extra n separate issue. We shld love GOD cozHe has given us so much n is ready 2 forgive over n over again if we only ask Him 4 it. GOD Bless!
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I see individuals as individuals regardless of their gender or sexual orientation...
Regards,
SEXUAL ORIENTATION is a weasel word. It's an attempt at pluralising what is a clear cut issue. People who accept more than male-female union are betraying themselves as those who can pluralise anything to their heart's content.
There is only ONE sexual orientation. Anything else is deviant. Forget the consensuality of it etc. but homosexuality is deviant sexual orientation - it is like orienting one's sexuality towards beasts or plastic dolls. It is a practice which cuts the way and pursues sensuality only.
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Salaams All,
ahoy hoy
The Universe and all that is in it Khizar is such a wonderful and amazing thing that we can experience with our senses. God's creation is majestically beautiful.
im curious lote, if you beleive that all of gods creations are beautrifull, and i do to, do you also think that homosexuals carry an equal beauty....
the kebab monsterI see individuals as individuals regardless of their gender or sexual orientation...
Regards,Ok, Lote! What do you say if a (adult) man wanted to marry his (adult) sister? Two consenting adults! According to your equation, there is no problem about that. They are both adults and they love each other, so what is the problem!!!???
Just take a look at
Prohibited to you (For marriage) are- Your mothers, daughters, sisters; father's sisters, Mother's sisters; brother's daughters, sister's daughters; foster-mothers (Who gave you suck), foster-sisters; your wives' mothers; your step-daughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom ye have gone in,- no prohibition if ye have not gone in;- (Those who have been) wives of your sons proceeding from your loins; and two sisters in wedlock at one and the same time, except for what is past; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful;-Can you see how Allah draws the line perfectly clear? Do you know why? Because Allah knows that the day will come (did come before) when people like you would see each other as just individuals, completely disregarding the holy bond of their creation. Sisters would marry each others. Brothers would marry each others. A mother marrying her son, a farther his daughter and so on.
I have seen in one of Oprah?s episodes a whole community somewhere in the USA where the father would marry his daughters and where this practice is going on and on in the that community as something completely normal! Oprah was interviewing a run-away daughter who had children from her father! She managed so hardly to escape her community. Are you part of that community, Lote? Because to you it is all about love and compassion. Nothing else matters. To you it is as follow With love there should be no limits to our actions. Now if that is not Pure Evil then what is!!!???
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Ok, Lote! What do you say if a (adult) man wanted to marry his (adult) sister? Two consenting adults! According to your equation, there is no problem about that. They are both adults and they love each other, so what is the problem!!!???
Kebab monster said - Are homosexuals beautiful in God creations? I said I see individuals as individuals not because of Gender or sexuality. I make no moral judement on homosexuality. But you do and your entitled to do that and thats ok. But I do make a moral judement on incest, paedophilia, rape, murder etc. How does homosexuality related to incest? homosexaulity is a attraction for the same sex as opposed to opposite sex siblings...
I have said no scripture accepts homosexuality as normal. But I make no judgement nor do I condone homosexuality. I do not condemn homosexuals nor do I ostracise them. It is up to each individuals to deal with their homosexuality since it is they themselves that will stand before their maker to answer for their behaviour and actions.
Just take a look at and see how Allah draws the line perfectly clear. Do you know why? Because Allah knows that the day will come (did come before) when people like you would see each other as just individuals, completely disregarding the holy bond of their creation. Sisters would marry each others. Brothers would marry each others. A mother marrying her son, a farther his daughter and so on.
As I said before I make a moral judement on incest.
I have seen in one of Oprah?s episodes a whole community somewhere in the USA where the father would marry his daughters and where this practice is going on and on in the that community as something completely normal!
Stop watching television. Stop watching Oprah Winfrey and read a book or somehting or go out with your friends and enjoy life. Look at nature contemplate its magnificent beauty. Reflect on the size of the Universe. It is so huge, almost incomprehensivley huge - it is in these things that you will find infinite perfection of the divine. These things will make you humble. As I am humbled by the majesty of the God's creation. Your ego and arrogance will be humbled. Your ego and arrogance will give away to love and compassion and you see humanity for what it is and not what you want them to be...
Oprah was interviewing a run-away daughter who had children from her father! She managed so hardly to escape her community. Are you part of that community, Lote ? Because to you it is all about love and compassion. Nothing else matters. To you it is as follow With love there should be no limits to our actions..
Have you ever been part of that community TAJ? Why make debate personal? Can we not debate objectively? If you can't debate objectively then you should not take part in it.
If you say you have no love and compassion in you TAJ then I can do nothing about that. It is something you as an individual have to deal with it...
With due respects,
Regards,
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Salam Lote Tree,
Khizar, is causing physical pain the only way to punishment? I believe that True Punishment is living with the consequences of your actions...
Khi- Again i must say tht the consequences of our actions in this world r by no means comparable 2 those in the hereafter. I gave u an exampe where some terrible drug dealers diie a very good death in the wordly sense. Yet GOD will surely punish them. N yes continuous physical pain is the greatest suffering tht can be afflicted upon someone.
i agree . some verses tell us that the punishment in the hereafter will be far more painful then the one in this world .
salam.