homosexuality, the way forward?
-
I do agree that the fervent irrationality-without any presentation of solution-is quite disturbing and pointless...and to those who think homosexuality is something that is treatable by psychological counseling, I am hoping that you are helping to establish health care services that could be easily accessible by these people. If you are that opposed to the problem, then I am hoping that you are progressive in trying to establish a solution too.
Anyway. I have a question that I would like you guys to address. My Arabic is coming along, but it doesn't hurt to ask others with more knowledge. Does the same root/adjective used to describe "shameful deeds" of 6151, 733, also used to convey the "lewdness" of Lut in 780 and 2754? I ask this because I try to read the Qur'an like a matrix to derive clarity and when I searched the root of "shameful", these verses are in the mix. Also refer to Marie's post earlier regarding the verb a/ta on the first page.
peace
-
Salaam everybody,
I agree that there are sick and twisted people but I think there are people who aren't like that but are gay so to assume that all HS's are sick and twisted; would be a transgression in my opinion.
I agree with you. If you re-read my last post prior to this one, I'm pretty sure that I said this may be the root cause some of them, not all of them. I even said in an earlier post that some of them may have changed after going through an event makes them question their own sexual identity. None of us can say that every gay person there is in the world are gay due to the exact same factors and experiences.
For example at the time of Lot in his community, almost every or a great majority was practising this and it was condemned, the whole society was involved in this 'sin' because the whole society recieved the punishment/retribution (maybe not the kids, but the truth about all that will come out in judment Day) apart from the believers. The women must have played a role too.
Todays issue with homosexuality is totally different because this is a minority amongst many communities whereas the story in the Quran was about a 'whole' community and their wrongdoing (whether this was actually homosexuality and nothing more is still being debated and seems to be unknown at the moment in this thread, maybe someone can clarify). Todays gays don't harm the average heterosexual, they only harm themselves if there are any harms in the practice.
I see your point, but I don't believe that the entire community in Lot's case became the majority overnight. Behaviours such as that take root in in a few places, in few people and eventually fester and spread. We are watching this exact same thing unfold right before our very eyes. Although HS's always existed in our society, there is now a trend and an overall movement which will allow the behavior to fester and spread just as in Lot's community. At the rate things are going now, we are fast heading in the same direction as Lot's community. It will eventually reach a point where they may no longer be a minority but will become a vast majority as they were in the time of Lot. We see it all over the place. It is growing fast and it isn't showing any signs of slowing down let alone stopping.
Things that were unheard of 50-100 years ago are th enorm today. Gay magazines and Gay sitcoms. Gay entertainers and singers. Certain states allowing Gay marriages and allowing them to actually adopt or have artificial insemination, people promoting the gay life and promoting so-called gay rights, you have gay and lesbian people of authority in the Christian Churches. Let's face it...western society has become a Mecca for homosexuailty, sin and immorality. I can go to divorce court right now and admit to not only commiting adultery, but having relations with another man and I won't be in the least bit of trouble for it. Our society has lost all sense of morals and decency. As advanced as we are in science, technology, medicine, education, arts, literature, military genuis, we have forgotten about good old fashion ethics and morals.
It's actually the same thing with pedophiles (who I hate with a passion) They are offended our society more and more with each coming year. You even have that low-life in Florida who had the audacity to kidnap that little girl from her own bedroom. Let's face it...this society does not fear nor reverence GOD. We are an immoral, GOD-Less society abd our leaders could care less about it. Sorry bro...I actually went into ranting session. But I believe I got my point across. The fact of the matter is that Lot's society was so immoral and GOD-Less that it allowed itself to grow to where the immoral people became the majority and we are heading down the same path in our own day and age. That's the reason that we as servants of GOD MUST take a stand against all of it.
Therefore I personally think that many peoples extreme stance on this situation is partially unjustified and is irrational, and also maybe based on an unclear interpretation of Scripture. I am not assuming anything about the Scripture (whether it prohibits the practice or doesn't, I haven't reached certainty in this topic) but I would like to see a good discussion on the verses regarding this topic.
Perhaps you would like to take a shot at my explanation of 781 which I have posted twice so far in this thread. I interpreted using the tools of both, The Arabic Language and Logic. After all, The Quran exhorts us to ponder and reflect on it.
I just don't agree with the extreme stance but I also don't agree on the practice but my way of solving it would be to educate and for me to take an extreme stance the way some of you have, I will need some evidence of clear harms to the whole society of this practice.
I don't want to offend anyone here, but I believe alot of Muslims here miss the point! The Quran says that it has laid out every kind of example for us to benefit from. It also exhorts us to look at these examples and learn from them. The Quran tells us to look at the end result of many of a community GOD had to destroy due to their heedlessness!! When The Quran cites the example of the community of Lot, it is for our benefit, for us to Learn From. We are being tested by GOD with this particular issue!! Too many people here suggest that unless they were there to see the actual community of Lot with their own eyes, they would have a hard time believing that GOD despises homosexuality and destroyed Lot's Community because of it. It may appear that too many muslims here may be having a hard time passing this test from GOD. I'm sorry guys, I don't know how else to put it.
We are watching the re-birth of Lot's community right before our eyes!! If we want evidence that it is an overall harm to society, all we have to do is continue to not take a stand agianst it and watch the end result of both them and us. Just because I don't somehow catch A.I.D.S. or that my son does not adopt the homosexual lifestyle Does Not mean I have escaped GOD's chastisment for not taking a stand against it.
I will admit I haven't read every reply in this thread so I might have missed something big but I don't think that promoting hatred towards anything will solve the issue, it will only cause more problems. Promote understanding.
Nural, you seem to be a very sincere and decent person. I understand that you do not wish to promote hatred, but please understand that it is the HS orientation that I dislike. I don't hate gay people. I have a gay neighbor that I say hello to all the time. But if I say that I am a believer in GOD and I believe that the Quran is direct expression of His will and intent for us as His creation, then by default I obligate myself to hold to the principles it lays our for me as its believer and follower. I am of the position that I either uphold the entire scripture or I don't uphold it at all.
As the slang term in my country goes.....We have to keep it real.
One,
Damon. -
$250 million worth of nitrites being used annually by a mere 2-4% of the US population (homosexual men) to facilitate anal sex. That's 1981 money we're talking about.....
Thank you Truth for this interesting but very amusing fact -) -)
Regards,
Not exactly what I call amusing really.
-
Peace all,
I just want to point out to those now putting forward Lot's community as being different from our present situation - ie. that this homosexual behaviour was being practised by the entire community then and it is a minority now.
Is everyone who says this blind to the fact that communities evolve?
Was Lot's community always that way or did they progressively become more depraved and licentious?
With the sort of apologetics going on for what is ultimately wicked behaviour I think that the outlook is not good. People are already depraved in so many other ways - ie. sex before marriage is commonplace, adultery is merely a sport in English speaking first world countries, and now wholesale acceptance and apologetics for homosexual behaviour.
You are the instruments of Satan in making the evil seem fair.
(Iblis) said "O my Lord! because Thou hast put me in the wrong, I will make (wrong) fair-seeming to them on the earth, and I will put them all in the wrong,-
The accepters and apologists are astray. That's all I have to say.
-
Peace all,
Is everyone who says this blind to the fact that communities evolve?
Was Lot's community always that way or did they progressively become more depraved and licentious?
With the sort of apologetics going on for what is ultimately wicked behaviour I think that the outlook is not good. People are already depraved in so many other ways - ie. sex before marriage is commonplace, adultery is merely a sport in English speaking first world countries, and now wholesale acceptance and apologetics for homosexual behaviour.
You are the instruments of Satan in making the evil seem fair.
My sentiments exactly, I agree with you 100%. That's the point that I tried to make in my last post.
I don't believe that the entire community in Lot's case became the majority overnight. Behaviours such as that take root in in a few places, in few people and eventually fester and spread. We are watching this exact same thing unfold right before our very eyes. Although HS's always existed in our society, there is now a trend and an overall movement which will allow the behavior to fester and spread just as in Lot's community. At the rate things are going now, we are fast heading in the same direction as Lot's community. It will eventually reach a point where they may no longer be a minority but will become a vast majority as they were in the time of Lot. We see it all over the place. It is growing fast and it isn't showing any signs of slowing down let alone stopping.
Things that were unheard of 50-100 years ago are th enorm today. Gay magazines and Gay sitcoms. Gay entertainers and singers. Certain states allowing Gay marriages and allowing them to actually adopt or have artificial insemination, people promoting the gay life and promoting so-called gay rights, you have gay and lesbian people of authority in the Christian Churches. Let's face it...western society has become a Mecca for homosexuailty, sin and immorality. I can go to divorce court right now and admit to not only commiting adultery, but having relations with another man and I won't be in the least bit of trouble for it. Our society has lost all sense of morals and decency. As advanced as we are in science, technology, medicine, education, arts, literature, military genuis, we have forgotten about good old fashion ethics and morals.
Salaam.
-
Peace Truth,
You stated, I presume indirectly at me
before presenting nonsense arguments like platonic homosexuality and hanging one's arguments on it - why not first establish whether there is such a thing and how prevalent it is.
I'm not sure if you noticed but I did say "I dare not feign a knowledge of this statistic", hence your notion of me hanging my argument on it is moot.
Nevertheless, it seems pretty clear that we have different views on this topic. I respect your opinion, as I always have.
Just for the sake of clarity, I neither accept nor apologize for homosexuality. I feel it is wrong and unnatural, without a doubt. But I feel this topic requires a more clear definition than "wrong" and "unnatural". To me, that is just too subjective and vague an explanation, especially if the consensus solution is exile.
May peace be upon you,
Tay -
$250 million worth of nitrites being used annually by a mere 2-4% of the US population (homosexual men) to facilitate anal sex. That's 1981 money we're talking about.....
Thank you Truth for this interesting but very amusing fact -) -)
Regards,
Not exactly what I call amusing really.
Why not man? I mean who could be interested in this fact if not for amusement? -)
Regards,
-
Salaams Lote, All
Have I used any quranic verses to justify a "pro-gay" stance as you say? Show me one example? I know what is in every scripture regarding homosexuality. But is standing up for TOLERANCE, COMPASSION and UNDERSTANDING anyway pro-gay? I think not.
My God is the God of COMPASSION. "He" starts his Scripture with these words
"In the name of the God who is MOST COMPASSIONATE..."
This is the principle I aply to my life. Human compassion is not easy Damon. To be compassionate requires a degree of dedication, knowledge and understanding. Human compassion needs to be nurtured and cultivated because it does not always comes easily to us...
Anyway this has been very interesting debate. I have said as much I can say on this matter. I hope I have been consistent in my views throughout in respects to Pro-Tolerance, Pro-compassion and Pro-understanding...
Allah commands us to rid ourselves from all compassion and tolerance when it comes to dealing with those who are violating God's laws. Please read well the Ayah .
-
Allah commands us to rid ourselves from all compassion and tolerance when it comes to dealing with those who are violating God's laws. Please read well the Ayah .
Oh Taj, you don't really mean that do you?
Can anyone be that heartless? I can't Taj. I can't.
Compassion is the Ethos of all religions.
Love and Compassion is what makes us human...
Regards,
-
Salaam Lote,
Allah commands us to rid ourselves from all compassion and tolerance when it comes to dealing with those who are violating God's laws. Please read well the Ayah .
Oh Taj, you don't really mean that do you?
Can anyone be that heartless? I can't Taj. I can't.
Compassion is the Ethos of all religions.
Love and Compassion is what makes us human...
Regards,
Ok! Ok! Don't panic now!!!
Damon and Truth and all the God Alone, Quran Alone Believers have all made up their minds to follow God's orders. That said, you should then argue with God and not them. Think about it! -
Ok! Ok! Don't panic now!!!
Damon and Truth and all the God Alone, Quran Alone Believers have all made up their minds to follow God's orders. That said, you should then argue with God and not them. Think about it!Perhaps you should argue with God yourself with your God-given reason and not with the scripture itself that came via a flawed human being?
If Damon, Truth and others have made their mind up to follow scripture to every letter, comma and full stop then thats all truely well and good.
But should that make you do the same? Should you not use your own God-given reason to arrive at your own understanding of God and religion?...Don't make any scripture an obstacle to your intellectual and spiritual progress Taj...
Regards,
-
Ok! Ok! Don't panic now!!!
Damon and Truth and all the God Alone, Quran Alone Believers have all made up their minds to follow God's orders. That said, you should then argue with God and not them. Think about it!Perhaps you should argue with God yourself with your God-given reason and not with the scripture itself that came via a flawed human being?
If Damon, Truth and others have made their mind up to follow scripture to every letter, comma and full stop then thats all truely well and good.
But should that make you do the same? Should you not use your own God-given reason to arrive at your own understanding of God and religion?...Don't make any scripture an obstacle to your intellectual and spiritual progress Taj...
Regards,
Ok!
-
Allah commands us to rid ourselves from all compassion and tolerance when it comes to dealing with those who are violating God's laws. Please read well the Ayah .
Oh Taj, you don't really mean that do you?
Can anyone be that heartless? I can't Taj. I can't.
Compassion is the Ethos of all religions.
Love and Compassion is what makes us human...
Regards,
689 They wish that you compromise, so they too can compromise.
7214 " `Among us are the submitters, and among us are the compromisers.' " As for those who submitted, they are on the right path.
7215 As for the compromisers, they will be fuel for Gehenna.
-
Peace Damon,
I agree with you on your point, but I don't know or haven't been to your home country, but it doesn't seem to be a growing trend in this country and I think that someone would be paranoid to claim this.
When the situation comes in this country when the evil is clear and the problems and signs are there then I will react in such a manner.
Peace
Nural -
It seems that Lote believes that his intellect is above and beyond God's words! And if God's demands don't fit Lote's definition of love then it should not be followed!
With due respects to you I don't think you can prove to yourself that these are God's words let alone me.
And you are right. Human intellect can't be beyond Gods that is why no human words can justify the reality we call God.
You are stuck like the rest of us. The scripture came through a human being and therefore no one can be sure if these are the actual words of God. There is no way of getting around this. You either have faith in it or you don't or you can use your God-given reason to find your own understanding of God. Use scripture as a guide to understanding the divine not the absolute truth you propound it to be...
But in the end if you want the scripture to be the absolute truth in your life then thats well and truly good for you but don't assume that others should do it too.
Let others use their Reason, Intuitions and Imaginations to arrive at their own understanding of the the God that created them.
And you can address the question to me as oppose to Truth! Don't worry I don't bite...
Regards,
-
7215 As for the compromisers, they will be fuel for Gehenna.
Please Truth, don't scare me with the reality of Hell.
I am not a child anymore! I have grown up.Hell is about the human fear of physical pain! I have outgrown
this limited concept of Hell long time ago.Living with the consequences of your actions is the True Punishment
as opposed to being tortured by demonic angels in hell fire...Please let go of your fear and try to understand the Reality of God
with reason, intuition and imaginations.Reason, intuitions and imaginations is our only True guide to God who lies beyond language and reason... approach God not out of fear but to understand so that you can grow both intellectually and spiritually towards our end goal which is a return to the Divine...
You have all come this far by rejecting hadiths using your reason. Dont make scripture another obstacle in your road to spiritual fulfilment...
Regards,
-
Please Truth, don't scare me with the reality of Hell.
I am not a child anymore! I have grown up.Khi- Dont u believe in heaven n hell where one wld go after judgement passed by GOD?
Hell is about the human fear of physical pain! I have outgrown
this limited concept of Hell long time ago.Khi- Hell is a dimension where ppl wld eperience extreme heat. The allegory of this heat intensity is also given in the Quran
If you cannot do this - and you can never do this - then beware of the Hellfire, whose fuel is people and rocks; it awaits the disbelievers.
Thus it will be very aweful. Also the skin which conatins the pain receptors will be refreshed again n again
Surely, those who disbelieve in our revelations, we will condemn them to the hellfire. Whenever their skins are burnt, we will give them new skins. Thus, they will suffer continuously. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.
Thus we must be aware of the punishment n do our best 2 be righteous.Living with the consequences of your actions is the True Punishment
as opposed to being tortured by demonic angels in hell fire...Khi- Who says the angels punish us there? They will only stand guard. The punishment is the extreme claimate in hell n the pain of its heat. The consequences of our actions which we face here on earth r nothing compared with the punishment of hell. Infact some ppl like drug dealer bosses live a very happy life throughout despite their evil deeds. They deserve punishment n they will ultimately get it in hell.
Please let go of your fear and try to understand the Reality of God
with reason, intuition and imaginations.Khi- GOD says many times in the Quran tht we must fear HIM. Thus we must always be aware of the punishment of GOD. We shld not fear hell itself but GOD Who has made it n HE is the one Who throws the wrongdoers into it.
Reason, intuitions and imaginations is our only True guide to God who lies beyond language and reason... approach God not out of fear but to understand so that you can grow both intellectually and spiritually towards our end goal which is a return to the Divine...
Khi- While it is true tht reason, logic n intellect leads 2 GOD we must also use the heart. There r ppl who rely on the heart's feelings alone, which is wrong. Then there r those who rely only on reson n intellect which is also wrong. I use both coz both were given 2 me by GOD. Thus i use reason 2 come 2 GOD n then i obviously fear Him n repent 2 Hin whenver i can. IMO this is the best way 2 become pious n righteous.
You have all come this far by rejecting hadiths using your reason. Dont make scripture another obstacle in your road to spiritual fulfilment...
Khi- Wht do u mean? Shld we cast the Quran aside? The Quran has been sent down as a mercy n guidance 2 us from GOD. N we must obey n do our best 2 follow whts in there. GOD Bless!
-
Peace All,
You have all come this far by rejecting hadiths using your reason. Dont make scripture another obstacle in your road to spiritual fulfilment...
Isn't this interesting logic? So we rejected traditional hadith. Why not reject the best hadith (quran). Infact, why stop there?... how about rejecting God altogether? roll
Oh and btw, the scripture is no obstacle at all, as a matter of fact, makes the road to spiritual fulfillment much easier and smoother. D
-
Greetings with peace,
In effect, abandon your thinking mind and just join the subjective gang who think they experience God by reaching "spiritual fulfilment". "spiritual fulfilment" is a load of crap with little substance. That's why it is "spiritual".
Anwar Azim
Peace All,
You have all come this far by rejecting hadiths using your reason. Dont make scripture another obstacle in your road to spiritual fulfilment...
Isn't this interesting logic? So we rejected traditional hadith. Why not reject the best hadith (quran). Infact, why stop there?... how about rejecting God altogether? roll
Oh and btw, the scripture is no obstacle at all, as a matter of fact, makes the road to spiritual fulfillment much easier and smoother. D