homosexuality, the way forward?
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...But I make no judgement nor do I condone homosexuality. I do not condemn homosexuals nor do I ostracise them. It is up to each individuals to deal with their homosexuality since it is they themselves that will stand before their maker to answer for their behaviour and actions.
salam Lotetree .
do u know that according to koran , homosexuality is punishable by home imprisonment , like khizar has explained in this thread (i think). -
Ok, Lote! What do you say if a (adult) man wanted to marry his (adult) sister? Two consenting adults! According to your equation, there is no problem about that. They are both adults and they love each other, so what is the problem!!!???
Kebab monster said - Are homosexuals beautiful in God creations? I said I see individuals as individuals not because of Gender or sexuality. I make no moral judement on homosexuality. But you do and your entitled to do that and thats ok. But I do make a moral judement on incest, paedophilia, rape, murder etc. How does homosexuality related to incest? homosexaulity is a attraction for the same sex as opposed to opposite sex siblings...
I have said no scripture accepts homosexuality as normal. But I make no judgement nor do I condone homosexuality. I do not condemn homosexuals nor do I ostracise them. It is up to each individuals to deal with their homosexuality since it is they themselves that will stand before their maker to answer for their behaviour and actions.
But you don't believe in Judgment Day. Why have you all of sudden changed your mind!?
Just take a look at and see how Allah draws the line perfectly clear. Do you know why? Because Allah knows that the day will come (did come before) when people like you would see each other as just individuals, completely disregarding the holy bond of their creation. Sisters would marry each others. Brothers would marry each others. A mother marrying her son, a farther his daughter and so on.
As I said before I make a moral judement on incest.
I am surprised that you see incest as a crime? Since it is between two loving adults? Isn't that your basic convictions?
I have seen in one of Oprah?s episodes a whole community somewhere in the USA where the father would marry his daughters and where this practice is going on and on in the that community as something completely normal!
Stop watching television. Stop watching Oprah Winfrey and read a book or somehting or go out with your friends and enjoy life. Look at nature contemplate its magnificent beauty. Reflect on the size of the Universe. It is so huge, almost incomprehensivley huge - it is in these things that you will find infinite perfection of the divine. These things will make you humble. As I am humbled by the majesty of the God's creation. Your ego and arrogance will be humbled. Your ego and arrogance will give away to love and compassion and you see humanity for what it is and not what you want them to be...
Now who is getting personal here? Why are you changing the subject, Lote? I don't even have much time to watch TV and if I happen to have little time then why is it such a crime to you!!!??? Why are you so offensive about it? Why do you give yourself the right to tell people what to do with their spare time? And what is the difference between watching a movie and reading a book, if both teach you the same moral? Why don't you spare your guidance to the HS? Or are you so perfectly happy and satisfied with what they do in their spare time and otherwise!?
And you preach me about the wonders of universe!?
The wonders of Allah are every where and not just in the universe .
Allah's wonders are inside us as well. In looking inside ourselves we will find huge lessons as well. And you accuse me of ego and arrogance!!!??? How can I have any of these when I am following what my Creator says? Unlike you who thinks that your intellect, not to mention your love and compassion, is your god and guide!!??Oprah was interviewing a run-away daughter who had children from her father! She managed so hardly to escape her community. Are you part of that community, Lote ? Because to you it is all about love and compassion. Nothing else matters. To you it is as follow With love there should be no limits to our actions..
Have you ever been part of that community TAJ? Why make debate personal? Can we not debate objectively? If you can't debate objectively then you should not take part in it.
If you encourage HS practice by excuses of freedom and adulthood rights, then you are part of that community whether you admit it or not. That American community is breaking God's laws, laws that you think that your intellect is above and beyond.
Whoever you support, Lote, you become part of it. If you support a criminal, even by just keeping quiet about it, then you are a criminal yourself, that is a rule that I didn't invent. You become a part of whatever you support, and silence IS support. Why now is it suddenly wrong to you that an adult brother marries his adult sister while it is perfectly fine with you that a male marries another male!!?? Are you suddenly becoming ethical and judgmental!!!??? Why? Can you explain that without beating around the bush!If you say you have no love and compassion in you TAJ then I can do nothing about that. It is something you as an individual have to deal with it...
With due respects,
Regards,
Stop playing on those loose strings, will you?
--
To the moderators Please delete my previous post, the one before the last, at the end of page 8 of this thread, thank you!
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Why now is it suddenly wrong to you(Lotetree) that an adult brother marries his adult sister while it is perfectly fine with you that a male marries another male!!?? Are you suddenly becoming ethical and judgmental!!!??? Why? Can you explain that without beating around the bush!
yes Lotetree.
what makes u say that homosexuality is OK ,but incest is immoral . there is certainly something wrong with your "reasoning" . -
I am surprised that you see incest as a crime? Since it is between two loving adults? Isn't that your basic convictions?
No, my basic conviction is FREEDOM and INDIVIDUALITY. Freedom to choose and choose to be free. FREE to Act and Act to be FREE. But this freedom comes with responsibility. You are free do as you like but you MUST be responsible for your actions to yourself and to the society that you live in. This is freedom with responsibility and not freedom WITHOUT responsibility. Incest has been practiced in many earlier societies like the polynesians and the Egyptians. But with my personal liberty I make a moral judgement on incest.
And you preach me about the wonders of universe!?
The wonders of Allah are every where and not just in the universeThen why are you not humbled?
Allah's wonders are inside us as well. In looking inside ourselves we will find huge lessons as well.
Then you have obiviously not looked deep inside enough, if you did then you would have come across that Compassionate God that scripture speaks about...
And you accuse me of ego and arrogance!!!??? How can I have any of these when I am following what my Creator says?
No. I accuse humanity of ego and arrogance and not just you as an individual.
Unlike you who thinks that your intellect, not to mention your love and compassion, is your god and guide!!??
My God is God of compassion - as it is written in the first line of the scripture. I just apply this simple insight to my everday life. My intellect, love an compassion indeed is my GUIDE to this compassionate GOD...
If you encourage HS practice by excuses of freedom and adulthood rights, then you are part of that community whether you admit it or not.
Really TAJ? This is nonesical. I do not approve of the Death Penalty - does that mean I support murder and criminality. No!
Whoever you support, Lote, you become part of it.
I don't think in this fashion. You can stand up for Personal Liberty without supporting how each individuals exercises this right to personal liberty. For example I support individuals right to vote. But I may disagree with their political views...
Are you suddenly becoming ethical and judgmental!!!?
We are all ethical and judgemental. It is our human nature. But you are free to make that judgement. You have that right. I choose to make moral judgement on incest. You on homosexuality and thats your right.
Stop playing on those loose strings, will you?
I could not find any strings in you TAJ and thats sad...
Regards,
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Hello Saladin,
Really TAJ? This is nonesical. I do not approve of the Death Penalty - does that mean I support murder and criminality. No!
salam Lotetree.
u think a murderer should not be punished by a death penalty . ?!No, Saladin. I think life is a precious Gift from God and it is not up to us humans to take this life away... only God has that right...
Regards,
-
Peace all,
No, my basic conviction is FREEDOM and INDIVIDUALITY. Freedom to choose and choose to be free. FREE to Act and Act to be FREE. But this freedom comes with responsibility. You are free do as you like but you MUST be responsible for your actions to yourself and to the society that you live in. This is freedom with responsibility and not freedom WITHOUT responsibility. Incest has been practiced in many earlier societies like the polynesians and the Egyptians. But with my personal liberty I make a moral judgement on incest.
No offence intended Lote Tree, but this constitutes hypocrisy on your part. At the very least, one can say it as a double standard.
Salaam,
Damon. -
Peace all,
No, my basic conviction is FREEDOM and INDIVIDUALITY. Freedom to choose and choose to be free. FREE to Act and Act to be FREE. But this freedom comes with responsibility. You are free do as you like but you MUST be responsible for your actions to yourself and to the society that you live in. This is freedom with responsibility and not freedom WITHOUT responsibility. Incest has been practiced in many earlier societies like the polynesians and the Egyptians. But with my personal liberty I make a moral judgement on incest.
No offence intended Lote Tree, but this constitutes hypocrisy on your part. At the very least, one can say it as a double standard.
Salaam,
Damon.How so?
Do you not believe in FREEDOM and INDIVIDUALITY?
Regards,
-
Salaam,
How so?
Do you not believe in FREEDOM and INDIVIDUALITY?
You're missing my point friend. There are two factors in your position which makes it a double standard.
1). You believe in FREEDOM and INDIVIDUALITY and due to this belief you DO NOT condem homosexuality, but you will turn around in the same breath and condem incest. Why does your belief in FREEDOM and INDIVIDUALITY disappear when it comes to the practice of incest? After all, they are only expressing their FREEDOM and INDIVIDUALITY. You take a MORAL stand on one and not the other.
2). Both acts are Clearly and unambigously condemed in The Quran. It is not up to us to pick and choose which acts are okay and which acts are not okay....not if we are sincere believers in the quran.
And to answer your question, YES I do believe in FREEDOM and INDIVIDUALITY, but ALWAYS within the limits that GOD has established for us. I am a father of two and one on the way. I give my children COMPLETE freedom and their own individuality, but as a parent I also have to establish boundaries and rules. Without these boundaries and rules, EVERYONE would run amuck and we will have NOTHING but COMPLETE and TOTAL ANARCHY. This life is a Test, period. We only have this one chance to pass it. If we fail, there will be no re-try. We are being tested as to WHO will obey the rules and boundaries and who WILL NOT obey them. I'm afraid that their is no middle ground here. There is no straddling the fence. Either support what GOD says or support who and whatever other than GOD says. It really is that simple. It maybe somewhat harsh, but at least the lines are clearly drawn.
One.
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Both acts are Clearly and unambigously condemed in The Quran. It is not up to us to pick and choose which acts are okay and which acts are not okay....not if we are sincere believers in the quran.
Exactly.
1589 And proclaim "I am the manifest warner."
1590 We will deal with the dividers.
1591 They accept the Quran only partially. -
Salaams Damon, All
Peace all,
No, my basic conviction is FREEDOM and INDIVIDUALITY. Freedom to choose and choose to be free. FREE to Act and Act to be FREE. But this freedom comes with responsibility. You are free do as you like but you MUST be responsible for your actions to yourself and to the society that you live in. This is freedom with responsibility and not freedom WITHOUT responsibility. Incest has been practiced in many earlier societies like the polynesians and the Egyptians. But with my personal liberty I make a moral judgement on incest.
No offence intended Lote Tree, but this constitutes hypocrisy on your part. At the very least, one can say it as a double standard.
Salaam,
Damon.What I see in Lote is double standard. Apparent contradiction. Hypocrites have hidden agenda. Lote is not hiding anything. So what could his true agenda be, if he has any? Changing our faith in the Quran? If so, then he is losing more and more!
It is double standard using different scales to weigh the same thing! -
Hello Saladin,
Really TAJ? This is nonesical. I do not approve of the Death Penalty - does that mean I support murder and criminality. No!
salam Lotetree.
u think a murderer should not be punished by a death penalty . ?!No, Saladin. I think life is a precious Gift from God and it is not up to us humans to take this life away... only God has that right...
Regards,
but the koran says that we can punish a murderer with a death penalty . do u disbelieve in those verses of the koran .?
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Salaam,
How so?
Do you not believe in FREEDOM and INDIVIDUALITY?
You're missing my point friend. There are two factors in your position which makes it a double standard.
1). You believe in FREEDOM and INDIVIDUALITY and due to this belief you DO NOT condem homosexuality, but you will turn around in the same breath and condem incest. Why does your belief in FREEDOM and INDIVIDUALITY disappear when it comes to the practice of incest? After all, they are only expressing their FREEDOM and INDIVIDUALITY. You take a MORAL stand on one and not the other.
INCEST and HOMOSEXUALITY to me is different. HOMOSEXUALITY is the attraction for the same sex. Incest is not and it is my freedom to make a MORAL stand on incest as you do on homosexuality.
2). Both acts are Clearly and unambigously condemed in The Quran. It is not up to us to pick and choose which acts are okay and which acts are not okay....not if we are sincere believers in the quran.
User your reason Damon, and not make scripture your REASON. Read what the Great Seers, Sages and Meditators and Mystics have to say about the reality that we call God. Even simple meditation techniques will allow you to glimpse a reality that lies beyond language and reason...
And to answer your question, YES I do believe in FREEDOM and INDIVIDUALITY, but ALWAYS within the limits that GOD has established for us.
That is perfectly fine and commendable. But don't enforce this limit to other individuals. This is unfair and patronising because someone's understanding of God will be different from yours, and perhaps far superior than yours. An understanding of God that comes from love and compassion and not blind obedience to rules in a scripture...
I am a father of two and one on the way. I give my children COMPLETE freedom and their own individuality, but as a parent I also have to establish boundaries and rules. Without these boundaries and rules, EVERYONE would run amuck and we will have NOTHING but COMPLETE and TOTAL ANARCHY.
Off course children need rules and boundaries to develop their personality. But as a adult I have complete freedom to do anything I want. But do I run amok? No. Would you run Amok? I think not. With complete freedom comes a huge responsibility Damon to yourself and the society that you live in. It is not easy living with complete freedom...
Just a question to you - if your child turn out to be gay, how would you deal with it?
This life is a Test, period. We only have this one chance to pass it. If we fail, there will be no re-try. We are being tested as to WHO will obey the rules and boundaries and who WILL NOT obey them.
Do you think this is all about Damon? The blind obedience to rule? In this wonderous Universe of ours do you think God wants legions of robots? I do not think in this way. There is more to life than obeying rules. I would say we are here to grow both intellectually and spiritually so that we may grasp something of that "infinity" that we call God.
I'm afraid that their is no middle ground here. There is no straddling the fence. Either support what GOD says or support who and whatever other than GOD says. It really is that simple. It maybe somewhat harsh, but at least the lines are clearly drawn.
I am not seeking middle ground, Damon. I can't accept scripture as absolute truth but only as A TRUTH. And when comes to the infinity of God, you can't draw a clear lines like this. If you do this then you have not understood the infinite possibility of Divine in our lives...and you also stunt your intellectual and spiritual growth as an individual...
Regards,
-
What I see in Lote is double standard. Apparent contradiction. Hypocrites have hidden agenda. Lote is not hiding anything. So what could his true agenda be, if he has any? Changing our faith in the Quran? If so, then he is losing more and more!
It is double standard using different scales to weigh the same thing!How is arguing scripture as a A TRUTH means that there is hidden agenda?
Is paranoia setting in at FREE-MINDS as well as CENSORSHIP? If I am able to make you doubt your faith then obiviously your faith is not strong enough TAJ is it?
Changing our faith in the Quran? If so, then he is losing more and more!
I did not quite get that. What I am losing here?
Regards,
-
Peace,
Let's get back to basics.
LoteTree, let's try and come to some sort of wrap up here as the topic has moved off the original post and is now into discussing other issues.
Are you a relativist? Do you believe it is wrong to judge others who take a different moral stance to you?
Do you believe that your own views have universal validity? If they do not, then why do you insist that we agree with you? By arguing for so long about this you are trying to get us to recognise that you have a good argument. This shows in effect that you believe your own reasoning has objective and universal validity.
And yet you are arguing that nothing can have universal validity. Do you understand the contradiction in your position and why it is untenable?
What we are arguing is that we have the koran which has universal validity. If you are doubting this then you are arguing against God and not us.
Regards.
-
Salaams All,
Lote,
As I said, I don't believe that you have a hidden agenda. And I happened to mention that on anther thread You don't fit the criteria of a hypocrite. Ok now, Lote!If I am able to make you doubt your faith then obiviously your faith is not strong enough TAJ is it?
As a matter of fact, I think a little grain of doubt can sometimes be healthy!
God Says in the Quran "Some doubt can be guilt-causing"
Doubt is not all bad although most of it is.paranoia setting in at FREE-MINDS as well as CENSORSHIP
Don't panic now, Lote! No paranoia and no censorship on this forum! Never before! Never will! Capeesh?
And I second Truth! Let's go back to the main theme!
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Peace,
Let's get back to basics.
LoteTree, let's try and come to some sort of wrap up here as the topic has moved off the original post and is now into discussing other issues.
Are you a relativist? Do you believe it is wrong to judge others who take a different moral stance to you?With due respects I did not make thread run off to differet tracks. I am only replying to peoples posts.
Do you believe it is wrong to judge others who take a different moral stance to you?
No. I think our moral stance should not undermine someone else's freedom to have a moral stance.
Do you believe that your own views have universal validity?
It is not important that my views have universal validity or not. I am standing up for individuals right to have views...
By arguing for so long about this you are trying to get us to recognise that you have a good argument. This shows in effect that you believe your own reasoning has objective and universal validity.
Is this all about? That I am arguing to make people agree with me? I am not. I am not that of a ego maniac. If this argument is long going then is it my fault?
And yet you are arguing that nothing can have universal validity. Do you understand the contradiction in your position and why it is untenable?
No. I am arguing that you should not apply and force your Universal Validity of morality to another individual. I see no contradiction in this - do you? Are you against FREEDOM and INDIVIDUALITY?
What we are arguing is that we have the koran which has universal validity. If you are doubting this then you are arguing against God and not us.
No. You are arguing that Koran has Universal Validity for you and that everyone else should make this so. I say you say this because you accept Koran to be absolute truth. And I respect your view. But for me it is A TRUTH....
Regards,
-
Dear LoteTree,
Do you believe it is wrong to judge others who take a different moral stance to you?
No. I think our moral stance should not undermine someone else's freedom to have a moral stance.
Right. So can you explain then why being against homosexuality is wrong? Can someone not be free to hold that view loudly and openly?
Why are you limiting their freedoms and playing the game of double standards?
It seems the only thing you are undermining is the credibility of your position.
Do you believe that your own views have universal validity?
It is not important that my views have universal validity or not. I am standing up for individuals right to have views...
No you are not. You are standing up for one side only. If you value everyone's rights to have views then you must champion the homophobe also. You must champion the people who want to partake of bestiality, commit incest etc. Otherwise you are being hypocritical.
And yet you are arguing that nothing can have universal validity. Do you understand the contradiction in your position and why it is untenable?
No. I am arguing that you should not apply and force your Universal Validity of morality to another individual. I see no contradiction in this - do you? Are you against FREEDOM and INDIVIDUALITY?
You are being confused here. I do see a contradiction.
Are you now saying that there is universal validity? If it is universally valid then you must accept it. You are an opponent of universal validity. You are a relativist. So you cannot even believe that there is such a thing.
What you are arguing for is the position of Iblis. Iblis was the champion of freedom and individuality in the way you describe it. Iblis did not acknowledge the universal validity of the God. You are emulating that position though you are unaware of it.
What we are arguing is that we have the koran which has universal validity. If you are doubting this then you are arguing against God and not us.
No. You are arguing that Koran has Universal Validity for you and that everyone else should make this so. I say you say this because you accept Koran to be absolute truth. And I respect your view. But for me it is A TRUTH....
Yes I am someone who believes in the universal validity of the koran. You on the other hand are a relativist - and a relativist has nothing firm to hold onto. They are like the sea, this way one moment and that way another. They lack consistency and cannot ultimately believe in their own arguments because what makes their argument valid in the first place?
Relativism is the oldest known self-refuting argument.
Peace.
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Peace all,
Well, I no longer see any reason to go on with this discussion. The lines are clearly drawn and now I believe I know where people stand on this issue. At the root of it is whether or not we will behave in accordance to quranic mandates. Positions on this are clear to me now.
What I see in Lote is double standard. Apparent contradiction. Hypocrites have hidden agenda.
The double standard aspect is very clear. Many of us see this. As far as possible hypocrisy....well, we can't know if he has a hidden aganda if he doesn't come out and tell us. That's what makes the agenda effective....the fact that it's hidden.
Lote is not hiding anything.
We don't know that. Any of us here could be hiding something and the others may not know it. For all you know, I could be the hypocrite with a hidden agenda here. Keep in mind though that I am not accusing Lote Tree of this or labelling him as a hypocrite. I am merely pointing out how his posts and comments will make it so that others may question his motives and goals of being here.
So what could his true agenda be, if he has any? Changing our faith in the Quran?
Well, let's just look at some of his comments.....
User your reason Damon, and not make scripture your REASON. Read what the Great Seers, Sages and Meditators and Mystics have to say about the reality that we call God.
An understanding of God that comes from love and compassion and not blind obedience to rules in a scripture...
There is more to life than obeying rules.
I can't accept scripture as absolute truth but only as A TRUTH. And when comes to the infinity of God, you can't draw a clear lines like this. If you do this then you have not understood the infinite possibility of Divine in our lives...and you also stunt your intellectual and spiritual growth as an individual...
I just apply this simple insight to my everday life. My intellect, love an compassion indeed is my GUIDE to this compassionate GOD...
you say this because you accept Koran to be absolute truth. And I respect your view. But for me it is A TRUTH....
These are just comments from this page alone. We must remember he has been saying these things since the very beginning of this thread. I would also like to point out blatant contradictions in his argument.....
And to answer your question, YES I do believe in FREEDOM and INDIVIDUALITY, but ALWAYS within the limits that GOD has established for us.
That is perfectly fine and commendable. But don't enforce this limit to other individuals. This is unfair and patronising
And then he says...
With complete freedom comes a huge responsibility Damon to yourself and the society that you live in. It is not easy living with complete freedom...
And...
No, my basic conviction is FREEDOM and INDIVIDUALITY. Freedom to choose and choose to be free. FREE to Act and Act to be FREE. But this freedom comes with responsibility. You are free do as you like but you MUST be responsible for your actions to yourself and to the society that you live in. This is freedom with responsibility and not freedom WITHOUT responsibility
What game are we playing here? ?
I specifically said that I respect and support FREEDOM and INDIVIDUALITY BUT with boundaries and respect for GOD's rules. But you told me this is wrong in one breath and then turn around and repeat my conviction in another breath. ? First there were the double standards and now the contradictions.
Anyway, as I said earlier in this post, our respective stances are clear. You DO NOT believe the quran to be GOD's absolute decrees!! Truth, TAJ and myself DO!! It is at this stage that WE ALL should just say Lakum deenukum wa 'leeya deen. To you your path and to me my path. I am innocent of what you do and you are innocent of what I do.
Peace everyone,
Damon. -
Yes I am someone who believes in the universal validity of the koran.
I for one don't and I have given my arguments for it...
You on the other hand are a relativist - and a relativist has nothing firm to hold onto.
I could say you are a puritan. Whose is only recourse is scripture and his only argument is SCRIPTURE. Who abdicates his reason to make scripture his REASON... Puritans also see world only in black and white. Right and Wrong. But Life is infinitely complex. There is no black and white. So is reality of God. This insight into God have been arrived at by great sages, seers, prophets, meditators and mystics independently in the past. Therefore no scripture can do justice to this infintely complex reality of Divinity. Therefore Scripture can only be GUIDE to understanding God...
We can end this debate if you want as we have agreed that you regard quran as absolute truth and I don't. If you wish to continue we can do this privately...
With due respects,
Regards,
"Out beyond right-doing and wrong-doing there is a field. Perhaps I'll meet you there" -Rumi