homosexuality, the way forward?
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ahoy hoy
Before i begin this thread i just want to make clear that i in no way intend to offend people or create any kind of unease or tension, all my views, are my own and i have come up with them, the point of placing them within this forum is in the hope that i can either develop them or realise that they are incorrect or false.
A common problem people face with the issue of homosexuality is that they dont seem to understand how it arrises. Is it natural? is it environmental?, Many people point to homsexual behaviour only arrising later in people lives and not being there throughout their early childhood years. they point to this as proof that it is the environment and peoples society that makes them homosexual. Having studied homosexuality i know that it is largely accepted that if someone is homosexual, it is a natural thing, and they have been homosexual thier entire lives, it follows also that all homosexuals say that even if they have been in relationships with women at some earlier time that they didnt feel 'right' or they knew something was wrong, as for the argument that it only occurs during the teenage years, well this is the same for all flirtatious behaviour (homosexual or heterosexual), as the hormones only come into play at this age.
To the point..... Many people think that homosexuals are completely unatural as it is inherit within our nature to pass on our genes, to reproduce and to continue the species, being homosexual means that we cannot do this.......or does it.
It is understood with modern biology that there are new species being discovered which are born without a gender and reproduce asexualy. Looking at the world in general, we are in large experiancing a population boom, many cities are considering placing child limits to control this, I wonder then if this limiting the population size is not something we need to worry about, maybe nature is taking care of this for us, having reached a peak in population, increasingly more homsexuals seem to be around (i appreciate that there is more openess and acceptance for homosexuality today but studies have shown that homsexuality has become more common in recent times) Maybe homosexuals are furhter in the evolutionary process than heterosexuals and the next step is asexuality, having reached a peak in population, it would be the ideal time for such a change over as during the interchange period we would loose numbers of people but there would be enough left over with the far more biologically efficient method of asexual reproduction to continue the species.
(think......)
toodles
the kebab monster
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Salam,
Before i begin this thread i just want to make clear that i in no way intend to offend people or create any kind of unease or tension, all my views, are my own and i have come up with them, the point of placing them within this forum is in the hope that i can either develop them or realise that they are incorrect or false.
Khi- Lemme 1st ask u do u believe in Quran Alone? If yes then u shld know tht the Quran condemns hs in the strongest terms.
A common problem people face with the issue of homosexuality is that they dont seem to understand how it arrises. Is it natural? is it environmental?, Many people point to homsexual behaviour only arrising later in people lives and not being there throughout their early childhood years. they point to this as proof that it is the environment and peoples society that makes them homosexual. Having studied homosexuality i know that it is largely accepted that if someone is homosexual, it is a natural thing, and they have been homosexual thier entire lives, it follows also that all homosexuals say that even if they have been in relationships with women at some earlier time that they didnt feel 'right' or they knew something was wrong, as for the argument that it only occurs during the teenage years, well this is the same for all flirtatious behaviour (homosexual or heterosexual), as the hormones only come into play at this age.
Khi- Do u believe wht those ppl say?
To the point..... Many people think that homosexuals are completely unatural as it is inherit within our nature to pass on our genes, to reproduce and to continue the species, being homosexual means that we cannot do this.......or does it.
Khi- Well i guess they r right but not only tht. HS can ruin the whole society. Children are most effected and they become mentally ill or even phsycic. While in general this may seem harmless it is not. Homosexuality according to statistics is the major cause of aids in the USA. Also no one can tell whether a homo wont become hetero one day thus unknowinlgy trnaferring his acquired deseases onto his partner which ruins not only his parnter's but also the child's life, if one is born.
It is understood with modern biology that there are new species being discovered which are born without a gender and reproduce asexualy. Looking at the world in general, we are in large experiancing a population boom, many cities are considering placing child limits to control this, I wonder then if this limiting the population size is not something we need to worry about, maybe nature is taking care of this for us, having reached a peak in population, increasingly more homsexuals seem to be around (i appreciate that there is more openess and acceptance for homosexuality today but studies have shown that homsexuality has become more common in recent times) Maybe homosexuals are furhter in the evolutionary process than heterosexuals and the next step is asexuality, having reached a peak in population, it would be the ideal time for such a change over as during the interchange period we would loose numbers of people but there would be enough left over with the far more biologically efficient method of asexual reproduction to continue the species.
Khi- It is impossible 4 human beings 2 reproduce asexually since their r limits 2 the variation in the gene code. N hs only became popular in the recent years since it was tolerated. The same was the case with the ppl of Lot. They tolerated it n so the hs were able 2 carry out their activities. One of those supporters was Lot's own wives. Obviously she herself wasnt hs but she supported them exactly like many women pity n support the homos 2day. So GOD destroyed her n the whole community. I believe we must not tolerate such behaviour but we shld do our utmost 2 stop it. As far as hs behaviour is concerned i believe anyone can adopt tht. I may speak 4 myself. i There was a time when i used 2 be a fanatic sunni n didnt come close 2 girls n always stsyed with males. I sometimes developed some kind of more or less homo behaviour n i knew tht i was controlling tht, i was delieberately doing tht just 2 plz myself whereas i also knew tht i felt the real desire 4 the girls. I knew the homo feeling was wrong n tht was a deleiberate devilish action or shld i say intention by myself 2 try out something new, something extra ordinary u know. Yes evil is very attractive especially when one is forbidden from doing so.
Lets now suppose there occurs a real hormone prob in males which gets them attracted 2 other males. Shld they allow 4 tht or shld they go 2 the hospital n get a cure? I believe the latter is the logical decision. If ur ill u goto the doctor. Not recognizing tht HS is harmful 2 society is has cozued great chaos n will continue 2 do so if u dont stop it. GOD Bless! -
Peace Kebab,
I'm interested in the nature of your study. What correlations were you investigating? Was there any research into childhood abuse, or lack of male role models? What methods did you use in obtaining information from homosexual subjects?
You stated
It is understood with modern biology that there are new species being discovered which are born without a gender and reproduce asexualy.
My understanding is that the few species that can be considered without gender are very simple lifeforms. Furthermore, I've heard of no such anomaly within a species. I would think this to be a prerequisite for such an evolutionary step.
As well, there are no examples of mammals reproducing asexually.
I wonder then if this limiting the population size is not something we need to worry about, maybe nature is taking care of this for us, having reached a peak in population, increasingly more homsexuals seem to be around...Maybe homosexuals are furhter in the evolutionary process than heterosexuals and the next step is asexuality
I really don't see the correlation between homosexuality and asexuality. Can this correlation be demonstrated in nature?
i appreciate that there is more openess and acceptance for homosexuality today but studies have shown that homsexuality has become more common in recent times
I wonder is these studies have taken into account that it is far easier from a backlash standpoint to admit to homosexuality today then it has been in any point in history.
Peace,
Tay -
I think people put too much thought into the homosexuality issue. To be honest it's starting to annoy me very much. And by the way it's not that there are more homosexuals these days. I believe they've always been a minority it's just that they're being more VISIBLE.
There are things that we cannot understand (or not meant to understand) no matter how many debates and arguments we create. All I'm saying is let's move on. I go to different message boards and people seem to obsessed with this issue everywhere and persistence makes them write the most ridiculous things I've ever read. People are putting too much thought into this, as if it's a matter of life or death roll I mean it's good to try and understand but don't go crazy over it.
this is not particularly directed to you but to everyone by the way. I'm just venting here.
carry on ...
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I think people put too much thought into the homosexuality issue. To be honest it's starting to annoy me very much. And by the way it's not that there are more homosexuals these days. I believe they've always been a minority it's just that they're being more VISIBLE.
Khi- Salam. I agree with u on the underlined part. They r more visible now coz weve given them freedom n tolerance. Do u tolerate hs?
There are things that we cannot understand (or not meant to understand) no matter how many debates and arguments we create. All I'm saying is let's move on. I go to different message boards and people seem to obsessed with this issue everywhere and persistence makes them write the most ridiculous things I've ever read. People are putting too much thought into this, as if it's a matter of life or death roll I mean it's good to try and understand but don't go crazy over it.
Khi- I dont quite understand wht u mean? I mean hs is one of the greatest probs in society 2day. As believers it is our duty 2 at least inform ppl of how bad n wrong it is n not just tolerate it. GOD Bless!
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I think the socalled population boom is a lie. 30.000 people die every day from hunger alone, and this is not because there isnt enough food present or made. In EU we pay farmers not to grow food. Yes they get cash money for letting the fields untouched, that is how much we actually overproduce. It is an interresting problem i admit. Because while one part of the world is starving to death, the other is eating itself to death. We have become fat, ill and mentally challeneged. I dont know what is worse.
But to link this like this, to homosexuality as a solution is idiocricy. Look at history, what happened to all the places that started to adapt such flawed ideas? they all where destroyed.
Trust me on this, the way forward is peace, and here i mean real peace. Peace with other humans, other beings, and the nature given to us. We are none of that! We are a discrace in front of our creator. We have a choice, and as a world, we have chosen. Ignorance and falsehood. What is left is what the individual will do, how the individual will react upon it.
I chose peace, and by that i altso try to fulfill my creators purpose, that means, i want a wife, and i want to make children the way we were ment to. Just because we can create body's in tubes, does not make it right, or the right thing to do. And the next step in this way of thinking is eugenics.
Humans designing humans. Mate, we cant even change the design of a bug without us destroying both the crops and the "usefull" creatures, and make the bug resistant to everything but nuclear weapons (well nearly).
What makes you think for one minute, that we are in control of designing something as sophisticated as a mamal organism?Regards
Noah -
idmkhizar Could you please reference the qur'anic ayat that codemn sexuality in the strongest terms?
Homosexuality has been present in societies for who knows how long. We definitely know some form of it was going on during and before the revelation of the Qur'an.
The concentration on homosexuality here in America is a recent development. And, from my knowledge, this concentration is a reaction to the intolerance and abuses homosexuals/lesbians have encountered in last 40 years or so. Personally, I don't see homosexuality as the greatest problem in our society. Poverty, lack of assistance to the mentally ill and orphans, weak family structures, lack of universal health care, racism/classism, corporate exploitation, destructive domestic and international policy, environmental degradation and imperialism...THESE are the huge issues that need to be immediately addressed, IMO. Without a strong foundation, how can we expect a sturdy house?
Fight the source, not the symptom.
ONE
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Kebab Monster,
Did you say you study homosexuality?
Interesting...
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idmkhizar Could you please reference the qur'anic ayat that codemn sexuality in the strongest terms?
Homosexuality has been present in societies for who knows how long. We definitely know some form of it was going on during and before the revelation of the Qur'an.
The concentration on homosexuality here in America is a recent development. And, from my knowledge, this concentration is a reaction to the intolerance and abuses homosexuals/lesbians have encountered in last 40 years or so. Personally, I don't see homosexuality as the greatest problem in our society. Poverty, lack of assistance to the mentally ill and orphans, weak family structures, lack of universal health care, racism/classism, corporate exploitation, destructive domestic and international policy, environmental degradation and imperialism...THESE are the huge issues that need to be immediately addressed, IMO. Without a strong foundation, how can we expect a sturdy house?
Fight the source, not the symptom.
ONE
Peace sister. If i didnt know where the word originated from , i would say your post calls for an aaaaaamen!
regards
Noah -
Salaam Fam,
If a person "feels" that way and can't help him or herself, that does not excuse the behaviour. Take a look at rapists and pedophiles...
They all feel a certain way and have a certain way of thinking. However, we all know that the things that they do are wrong. So, for a person to "feel" this way means to me that there are psychological issues that these people need to look at and address.
For the rapist, there are power, anger and control issues. And GOD only knows what goes on in the head of a pedophile.
So, for any person to "feel" this unnatural attraction to the same sex suggests to me that they have some very strong psychological issues that need to be addressed,(no offense intended to homosexuals).
Another point I would like to bring up is the Unnatural-ness of it all...
When homosexuals engage in their activities, they do things with each other that they were not designed by GOD to do.
Do we as human beings put our shoes on our hands??? No, we do not!!! Do we as human beings wear gloves on our feet??? Again, no we do not!! Because we were designed a certain way, and shoes and gloves were specifically designed for specific parts of our bodies. It is the same with the human anatomy. We as men and women were designed by GOD to be specifically and systematically compatable (if you know what I mean, no need to get any more specific here).
They ask you about menstruation Say, "It is harmful; you shall avoid sexual intercourse with the women during menstruation; do not approach them until they are rid of it. Once they are rid of it, you may have intercourse with them in the mannner designed by GOD. GOD loves the repenters, and He loves those who are clean."
Your women are the bearers of your seed. Thus, you may enjoy this privelage however you like, so long as you maintain righteousness. YOU SHALL OBSERVE GOD, AND KNOW THAT YOU WILL MEET HIM. Give good news to the believers.
(Quran 2222-223)Whenever The Quran speaks of Marriage and sexual relationship, it ALWAYS addresses the natural relationship between male and female. The Quran also condems homosexual behaviour when it speaks on the community of Lut/Lot.
The things that homosexuals do with each other, with the anatomy that they have been born with, is totally unnatural.
Two simple facts...
1). Sex is used as a vehicle for pro-creation.
2). Pro-creation can only be accomplished between a male and a female. It can never be accomplished between two males or two females!!
These two important facts alone, along with passages from the Quran speaking on Lot's Dilemma, let me know that homosexuality is definately unnatural, and thus, wrong.
Peace family,
Damon. -
Salaam all,
Humility wrote
I would also like to say (in relation to what Damon said) - to compare homosexuality and paedophilia is not correct. One harms children because it's simply rape - anything which involves hurting another human being is bad and should be condemned. the other involves consent between people who as far as I know are not hurting each other (unless there's occurence of rape). Both behaviours generate moral controversy but it doesn't mean that they should be compared. Above I said that homosexuality wasn't the biggest problem we face, but paedophilia is actually serious because again children are being hurt and abused. I hope you see the difference.Perhaps you missed my point. I am not debating whether or not one harms people and the other one doesn't. I was speaking strictly on the fact that there is a mental/psychological issue with these people that need to be addressed. Whether you are talking about pedophiles, rapists or homosexuals, the fact remains that there is a psychological deficiency in them that has to be dealt with.
One,
Damon. -
Peace be upon you all,
Those who make excuses for going against the God's system regarding sexuality are symbolized in the story of Lot as "the Old Woman who lagged behind". I suggest you all read that story over and over again.
Let me be clear, I do not criminalize a homosexual PERSON, I criminalize the homosexual ACT. The problem is a clear one, these people have not learned how to control thier animalistic behavior, that is what the God's system teaches us, this is what is meant by Solomon using the shayteen to do things for him, instead of letting the Shayteen use him!
WHen we act based on FEELINGS, we are slaves to the animal, for example, one might FEEL like eating cakes and Pies all day, but to do that would be comparable to being led by a Dumb Animal, instead we are to transcend that type of behavior and eat according to TRUTH, accroding to what is nutritionally correct.
One might FEEL like smoking, but that would be comparable to following a dumb animal, instead we should transcend and only inhale oxygen.
One might FEEL like having sex with the same sex, but that would again be following a dumb animal, one should transcend that behavior and follow the LAW, just as they should for all other behaviors in life. We cannot live by DESIRES! What does the God say about Desires? SOmeone please tell me.
This topic is so ridiculous that I cant believe it keeps coming back. What are a penis and vagina created with those shapes for? Is there no PURPOSE in the God's design? As the God says, truth stands out clearly from falsehood. So some try to bring all kinds of illogical reasonings, "well waht about people with both sex organs" etc. Yes, there are all kinds of perversities created because we have been terrible servants, so we have retarded people, blind people, and all kinds of birth defects from incorrect living, you reap what you sow, very simple.
Of course you will see more homosexuals when a society gives it the green light, and if they gave murderers the green light, you would see more killing (Like the Us military). Simple mathematics.
Lastly, the sister stated that Homosexuality is notr a bigger problem than poverty, I say lets not allow the wicked to DIVIDE the wickedness like that, we need to address ALL WICKEDNESSES, if we concentrate on poverty, then they will pump up homosexuality and other wickedness, and when we concentrate on homosexuality, they will move to something else. Divide and Conquer is the oldest trick in the book.
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Peace idolfree,
We cannot live by DESIRES! What does the God say about Desires? SOmeone please tell me. This topic is so ridiculous that I cant believe it keeps coming back. What are a penis and vagina created with those shapes for? Is there no PURPOSE in the God's design? As the God says, truth stands out clearly from falsehood
Lol your reply is comical! Sorry if you are offended but I agree with the logic you are using, but I think it's harder for others to see that logic because of their hormones, these individuals did not choose their hormones and also this is a harder thing for them to understand.
Maybe a certain spiritual level must be reached to understand or maybe homos will always exist and want this.
Peace
Nural -
Salaamun alaikum , dear brothers and sisters!
Well, finally I decided to step into these discussions on homosexuality on the free-minds forum, though reluctantly.
I decided to step in, because a) My wordlview became basically God alone/quran alone during the last year and inshallah grows into that direction and
b) I have spent a lot of thoughts and discussions on this issue of homosexuality recently. So, I think I should try to put my thoughts down here, right?
However, I am reluctant to step in, because neither my thoughts nor my discussions on this topics have been finished yet. Thus, what I have to offer is a dish that?s not really ready for eating, unfortunately.
But maybe it?s still someone?s taste ...... .My personal opinion on this issue is ..... well, difficult to define. I am not ready to say with full conviction that homosexuality is halaal. But I will also not say that homosexuality is haraam either. I would say, every issue pertaining to human personality and behaviour is way to complex to generalize it .... the quran gives us a beautiful example of this in the story of Musa and his companion (in folk tradition called Khizr) that he met at the confluence of the seas.
I am quite sure that the perceptions of most muslims both traditionalists and followers of God alone with regards to homosexuality are largely based on strong cultural patterns and not on the quran at all.
This is clearly visible in the energy with which homosexuality is always discussed among muslims and Muslims. Other issues which figure much more prominently in the quranic teachings on morality and have much more importance in the book of God like e.g.telling lies, deceiving, pride are rarely discussed with that energy. Strange ..... .
These cultural patterns have a long history that goes way back before the revelation of the quran. Nowadays they mostly center around the story of Lut and muslims (and Muslims“ made it a rule to apply to this story the interpretation that they found among the Christian Bible exegetes. Yes, I think the general interpretation of this story found in muslim circles is historically just a copy of the ideas of Christian monks ( for whom homosexuality, by the way, was and is a very specific issue) and not based on emancipated thinking about the quranic revelation.Appart from these specific cultural patterns we should always be aware that homosexuality is in general a cultural thing. The term homosexuality (or translations of it) and what we today understand with regards to it developed during the 20th century.
Gender diversity and sexual diversity were seen in different ways and with different patterns in different times and cultures. We can?t equate all these patterns with our modern understanding of sexuality and gender.
Given the fact that God commands us to accept all revelations and prophets as equal, we should mention in this context the fact that there were and still are many (not just a few) cultures in this world with a pretty monotheistic spirituality that never condemned people with a gendered or sexual diversity and sometimes even saw them as especially sacred.
(e.g. the precolumbian cultures of North America, who were much more monotheistic than Christian missionaries want us to believe and who knew their berdache, winkte etc. as a sacred third gender)Now, since most of the muslim ideas on homosexuality center around the story of Lut, I would like to mention some interesting facts that one should meditate on and that could inspire a more emancipated reading of this story.
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Whatever sin the people of Lut committed (and I am not sure if it was homosexuality as we understand it today, or homosexuality at all), we are not commanded to condemn or maybe even punish them. This is God?s business. We should accept it as His divine will, but our command is (on numerous places of the Quran) to take as our deen the position of Ibrahim. What was the position of Ibrahim when it came to the people of Lut? Read Sura 11 Ayah 74 75. Yes, Ibrahims position didn?t change God?s command. But it was definitely part of his spiritual maqam, I think.
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Is the story of Lut really about homosexuality? Read e.g. 7 80-81. Yes, Lut says you come in lust (shahwaat) leaving aside the women . But to whom does Lut adress his speach? Only to the men, adressing male homosexuality? No, he adresses qawmihi, his people. Including every memeber of his people, not just the men. So, women, children etc. are likewise accused of coming to men in shahwaat, leaving aside the women! Everybody! There?s more to this story than just male homosexuality.
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Nowhere in the quran does God mention female homosexuality in clear words. Some traditional Muslims have done some logically twisted interpretation with regards to this. But God alone followers should stick to the clear language with which God reveals.
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One could also start a discussion on the specific quranic meaning of shahwaat. There seems to be more to it than simply sexual lust. But others here have more knowledge on this specific issue than me .
Ok, this for a beginning. There is much more to say about my idea that the story of Lut is not simply a story about homosexuality, as taken from early Christian interpretation, but before delving into the subject I wonder what you guys have to say about my ideas. I also know that muslim criticism of homosexuality is not only based on the story of Lut. However, the story of Lut has always been the most important feature in this criticism and so I started to base my thoughts on it (at least for now).
Yes, God created male and female and he created them as complementary. And this complementarity partly shows in heterosexual couples and their children. However, this complementarity does not only appear in the magnetism between men and women. This complementarity exists in every single individual as well (we all posess so caled male and female hormones, male and female characteristics etc.).
And I am sure that, in the scheme of male and female, God Who creates what He wills- creates some of us in ways that show diversities in gender and/or sexuality"To Allah belongs the dominion over the heavens and the earth. He creates what he wills. He prepares for whom he wills females, and He prepares for whom He wills males. Or He mixes/pairs the male and the female, and He makes those whom He wills to be ineffectual in normal reproducing. Indeed He is the Knowing, the Powerful."
Surah 42 49 - 50Above every knower there is one higher in knowledge.
God knows best.Salaam,
Leyla
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Peace Leyla,
Very interesting read, never read an interpretation like this of Lot's story. Maybe God teaches us a more important message.
Nural
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Peace Leyla n all,
I'll try and put my thoughts about your thoughts. But as you eloquently put it - God knows best. )
First, I found the translation of the verses you posted in the end quite interesting. I prefer it this way though, much clearer in meaning, I think.
To God is the sovereignty of the heavens and the Earth. He creates whatever He wills. He bestows daughters to whomever He wills, and bestows sons to whomever He wills. Or, He may bestow them with both daughters and sons, and He makes whom He wills sterile. He is Knowledgeable, Capable.
In regards to 'terms' and 'new developments of sexuality and gender', or even what happens in this continent vs. that country... I won't go into that, as it really doesn't concern or bother me (personally) much.
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At this point you state, you're not sure if homosexuality was invlolved at all in the story of Lut. You're willing to look at it, as whatever sin it was, other than homosexuality. Which is fine, although it makes me wonder why. In a more 'emancipated' reading, must we be politically correct, with new developments? ? Anyway, you mentioned about how we should not condemn or punish them... I am yet to see one person here, including myself, who has ordered or condoned punishment to homosexuals, for being so. In regard to the "postition of Ibrahim"... he was compassionate and kind, as we all need to be... but he was also told to stay away from the decision already made... about the same way many of the prophets tried to pray for the salvation of their relatives/loved ones (including Ibrahim) and were told not to waste their time (paraphrasing). Ibrahim was a fine example of a human being, but human nonetheless. So, are we to listen to Ibrahim?... or God? (Please don't answer that.)
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Again you question about Lut's story being about homosexuality. Perhaps not just, but it is there. I have said it before, and I say it again... we see what we want to see. If one wants to see God actually condoning homosexuality in all the quran, then that's what he/she will see. I liked the way you showed 780-81, that Lut was addressing "his people" and not just men. But lets not be hasty, shall we?... why pick some verses and leave others? Here's some verses, where he adresses his qawm, and there's a bit of clarification... see what you think of it;
And his people came rushing towards him, and before it they were committing sin, he said ?My people, these are my daughters, they are purer for you, so be aware of God and do not disgrace me regarding my guests. Is there no sane man among you??
They said ?You know we have no interest in your daughters, and you are aware of what we want!?There's a 'lot' to see, but whether we see, is a whole 'nother story. wink
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I believe there is a mention of female homosexuality, perhaps not specific, as you put it.
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Dictionaries and Lexicons will let us pick and choose whichever meaning that suits us... doesn't make it right.
There is much more to say about my idea that the story of Lut is not simply a story about homosexuality, as taken from early Christian interpretation...
Again, you reiterate... it's more than just homosexuality! Yes, anything but?... roll And pardon me, but I see this kind of mentality about jewish, christian interpration card played a lot, like it's supposed to mean something. They all believe in the almighty creator.... does it mean we shouldn't ? ?Yes, God created male and female and he created them as complementary. And this complementarity partly shows in heterosexual couples and their children.
Yes, true and agreed. )However, this complementarity does not only appear in the magnetism between men and women.
Magnetism? ?Is one who is based on proof from his Lord, as one for whom his evil works have been adorned for him and they followed their desires?
Peace
PS - I wrote this during work, so if there's any mistakes or if there's any offence... my bad. oops
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Salaam Zenje and all!
Ok, zenje, I will try to adress your position in order. And, hopefully, without offence as well. I found no offence in your post. c)
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I think the traditional translation of 42 49-50 that you quoted does not give enough respect to the original Arabic meaning. E.g. the Arabic words for daughters and sons are not found at all in it. The terms directly mean males and females. From it?s root, the word aqeem also has a much more inclusive meaning than just sterile, imho.
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I think one should be very interested in terms and developments of concepts etc. when one is in search of knowledge. Where would this webpage be if people wouldn`t have realized that the traditional Muslim meaning of Salaat is a developed concept of a certain history? We all should be aware of the fact that many ways of thinking that we perceive as natural are not natural at all, but brainwashed by our culture. With regards to constructions of sexuality and gender, modern social science has done a great job to understand this. And a job that is as accurate (and still improvable) as modern physics, modern chemistry etc..
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I am not trying to be politically correct. If I would try to, I would say hey, God loves us all and so homosexuality must be halaal, because if I would think otherwise it would be against the declaration of human rights, or something. That?s not my point of view. And have struggled myself a lot with my position on homosexuality in the quran. I believe in an unchangeable will of God that was shown to us in the quran. But I also have made my conclusions when studying the quran. I am probably influenced by the globalist modern western culture that. Can?t deny that. I live here and now. But that?s exactly my point So were traditional interpreters by their cultural pattern. Which one is superior? Which one better? Which one closer to the original intention of the quran? That?s what I want to find out.
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The destructive influence of traditional Christian interpretation on the formation of Sunni and Shii Islam has been quite big. One should not underestimate this. Just look at the whole the messiah will come bak thing. Yes, they believe in God as well. But still.
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It is indeed very good that you quoted another verse with regards to Lut. We should assemble all the relevant verses to come to a conclusion. However, I disagree with your opinion on 1178f. . But you should mention the verses before as well. Why were they rushing towards him? Because they wanted to take the guests of Lut, and they did a similar kind of sin before. Now, if sexuality is an issue here, it is surely not the voluntarily and consensual kind of it. Sounds more like rape. And it?s not right to lump all homosexuals under one blanket with rapists (and it has been psychologically shown that rape has more to do with violence, humiliation and control than with sexual orientation)
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If we assemble even more verses we get a more complete picture of the sin of the people of Lut 2929 mentions that they were cutting the ways, which is generally interpreted as robbing strangers on the way (though I wonder about other possible interpretations). Another verse (sorry, can?t find it at the moment, but I?m sure you read it as well.) Tells us that the people of Lut forbade Lut to have guests of his own. In general, they didn?t seem to think good about strangers, it seems ..... .
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In 780 Lut says that his people commit a faheeshah that was never committed before. If this refers to homosexuality and we understand that statement literally, well, we have historical documents earlier than the times of Lut about this!
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A note on the word shahawaat. (This does not come from my brain, but from a friend?s. Thank you brother.) In 314 we learn that, just as men can be shahawaat for a people (of Lut), women can be a shahawaat for all mankind! Again, not only for men. Both genders have this potentiality for all genders.
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I always saw shahawaat as the opposit of mawaddatan wa rahmatan (love and mercy) in 3021 where . Now, 3021 describes the perfect love relationship. But the terms here are totally nongendered as well. he created for you spouses (nongendered, inclusive) from yourselves (nongenderd, inclusive).
What I read when I read the story of Lut together with 314 and 3021 is that the defining quranic criteria for sexuality is the difference between shahawaat on one side and mawaddatan wa rahmatan on the other, regerdlessof the genderdness or sex of the involved individuals. Both men and women can be shahawaat for both men and women. So there is neither a heterosexism nor a homosexism connected to this word. However, both men and women might also be objects of mawaddatan wa rahmatan for both men and women.
May God enlighten all of us and keep us from just following our wishes, homophobias, homophobia-phobias, political correctnesses, modern times, traditional concepts etc. etc. etc. .
Salaams,
Leyla
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