homosexuality, the way forward?
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Peace All,
It seems we're all in the same boat. None of us can really identify the problem, and therefore, no solution. We also agree that homosexuals shouldn't be punished nor condemned, only advised.
All I'm asking, is what do we advise . There have been comparisons to pedophilia. This is an unbalanced comparison as pedophilia is clearly a case of physical and mental dominance. Then there's the example of smoking. Sounds good, but the negative effects of smoking are clear and concise. No smoker will argue about the harm in smoking. The same cannot be said of 2 people of the same gender involved in a consentual physical and spiritual bond. They see nothing wrong with what they're doing.
So what argument can we make? What comparison exists? Everyone has gotten everything off their chests. Let's be constructive now.
I ask that you imagine yourself sitting face to face with a person who is admittedly gay and sees nothing wrong with their chosen lifestyle. What do you say to this person?
or...
What do you say to your children when they ask you about their gay teacher who is "really nice"?
I'm going to tell my kids, God willing, that gay people are as human as everyone else, that we shouldn't look down on them. I would liken their situation to one who is physically or mentally disabled in some fashion. Sometimes there are direct physical and mental correlations that can be understood as the cause of such disabilities, and sometimes there aren't.
As far as advising a gay person on a face to face basis, I would not volunteer my judgement. I leave that in God's hands. However, should they choose to seek counsel, I would certainly be willing to listen and help them find the root of the problem.
Peace,
Tay -
ahoy hoy
'None of us can really identify the problem'
Am i the only person who doesnt see homosexuality as a problem? it certainly feels like it
i kno people who have been homosexual their entire lives, its not a personal preferece, its not influeneced by modern trends, they just are and always have been attracted to the same sex.
To claim that these people in some way are not as 'righteous' as heterosexuals is something i wont accept. If you believe in a god then surely it is god who has made them this way, to blame them for their sexual orientation is to blame a man for his existance
toodles
the kebab monster
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Am i the only person who doesnt see homosexuality as a problem? it certainly feels like it
Khi- I think on this forum u r.
i kno people who have been homosexual their entire lives, its not a personal preferece, its not influeneced by modern trends, they just are and always have been attracted to the same sex.
Khi- Did i tell u abt my personal homo experience? It's coz i wanted it 2 happen although i later realized tht i cld easily control it. N the myth tht homosexuality is gentic is completely false n has been disproven
http//www.geocities.com/gngerald/Homosexuality.html
http//www.odsgc.net/~cornerst/biblestudies/ishomosexualitygenetic.htmTo claim that these people in some way are not as 'righteous' as heterosexuals is something i wont accept. If you believe in a god then surely it is god who has made them this way, to blame them for their sexual orientation is to blame a man for his existance
Khi- Wht u accept or not does not change the facts n fact is tht hs is harmful 2 society as ive mentioned in one of my previous post. GOD did not make anyone a HS. They did tht themselves just as i was abt 2 do a few yrs ago. Btw in case u r an atheist or agnostic id like 2 tell u tht even many amongst them r against such behaviour coz theyr well aware of the dangers of it 2 society. GOD Bless!
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ahoy hoy
'None of us can really identify the problem'
Am i the only person who doesnt see homosexuality as a problem? it certainly feels like it
i kno people who have been homosexual their entire lives, its not a personal preferece, its not influeneced by modern trends, they just are and always have been attracted to the same sex.
To claim that these people in some way are not as 'righteous' as heterosexuals is something i wont accept. If you believe in a god then surely it is god who has made them this way, to blame them for their sexual orientation is to blame a man for his existance
toodles
the kebab monster
Peace
As did he then create Killers, peadophiles, rapist, without given them a choice then. To blame those is to blame man for his existance. Look, i dont know why God is so specific in ALL the scriptures about this. In the Bible they are even supposed to stone them to death. What we can do, and rightly so, is accept peoples right to chose as long as it doesnt hurt anybody else. But what you demand, is that we accept the action itself. I cant, and i wont. God is our judge however, not us, not me, not you not anybody. God alone.
Regards
Noah -
Peace,
Some of the later reasoned arguments are quite good.
Perhaps one more thing from me. Homosexual groups try to join their 'brothers' and 'sisters' in organised communities of people who share only the homosexual orientation but are otherwise quite diverse.
There is a huge diversity amongst homosexual oriented people. When I say I have no problem with the people themselves, it is true; despite my abhorrence of the behaviour. However just as I may not like or get along with some heterosexual people due to personality or different social interests or socioeconomic situation etc. I cannot say I like or could get along with all homosexual people. You can't ask people to embrace what they cannot relate to. This highly visible section of the homosexual community is something I dislike.
So to say don't be homophobic is great, but the virulently gay activist type in your face ultra PC liberal homosexual is not exactly the most huggable person to me. I think we have to be sensible about it. It's inevitable that there is going to be this very visible gay promoting section.
But there is a group - perhaps even a majority who are just like the average person and wants to simply live their life with the choices they have made. I have had several acquaintances who were in the latter group and they have been wonderful colleauges etc. but that's not unexpected, because they are decent people who are like any of my heterosexual acquaintances.
Enough said from me.
Regards.
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Peace
As did he then create Killers, peadophiles, rapist, without given them a choice then. To blame those is to blame man for his existance. Look, i dont know why God is so specific in ALL the scriptures about this. In the Bible they are even supposed to stone them to death. What we can do, and rightly so, is accept peoples right to chose as long as it doesnt hurt anybody else. But what you demand, is that we accept the action itself. I cant, and i wont. God is our judge however, not us, not me, not you not anybody. God alone.
Regards
NoahKhi- Salam. We can judge in accordance with the scripture
We have sent down to you the SCRIPTURE, truthfully, in order TO JUDGE among the people in accordance with what GOD has shown you. You shall not side with the betrayers.
Thus we r 2 judge with the scripture. Dont we punish criminals? Similarly hs is a criminal act 2 society n must be punished. But this is not only so 4 hs but also 4 pre marital sex or sex out of wedlock or adultery. This is also a criminal act n ought 2 be punished. 2day ppl in the west dont view these 2 acts as crimnalistic anymore n thts the tragedy. The US i believe will be reinforcing these laws soon as creationists r becoming strong agaisn. GOD Bless! -
Peace,
When reading a thread currently near this one of Bahai Faith started in 2003 I noticed a weblink on one of the forum members signatures.
Surprise surprise it turns out to be a 'queer' magazine for homosexual oriented people with a muslim slant. Some of what I saw is what I find obnoxious - the rainbow flag, the use of words like 'fabulous', pink and purple designs -it can't get more cheesy and stereotyped than that. makes me cringe.
Anyhow you may examine it for yourselves
http//www.huriyahmag.com/
They have an interview with a homosexual oriented priest of some description (I don't believe or support ideas of priesthood).
http//huriyahmag.com/summer/interview.daayiee.htm
Regards.
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Peace all,
We can always count on our brother Tay to bring peace and civility to a discussion that may have taken a bad turn.
Tay Wrote,
Everyone has gotten everything off their chests. Let's be constructive now.Okay, I'll take your approach to the situation bro.
None of us can really identify the problem, and therefore, no solution.
Although I don't claim to be a Psychology Major, I believe that we can identify the problem. I personally believe that the problem is a Psychological Problem. Therefor, a Psychological Solution needs to be implemented.
We also agree that homosexuals shouldn't be punished nor condemned, only advised.
I agree that we Do Not have the right to punish them. Only GOD has that right. I Do Not condone, uphold or support Gay Bashing at all. I don't condem the person, but I'd be lying if I say that I don't condem The Behaviour. I condem it for the same reasons I condem murder, rape, theft, cheating, lying and a host of other deeds that The Quran condems. I also share Truth's sentiments about the In Your Face gay movement. The whole I am Gay, Hear Me Roar phenomenon that has been sweeping Western society as of late. I truly believe that behavior is the root cause of Gay Bashing. Gay people have existed for a very long time in our society. But gay bashing did not exist for as long. I believe that gay bashing is a reaction to the gay movement....my opinion.
All I'm asking, is what do we advise
We advise gay people that their lifestyle is one that goes against the design and intentions of GOD. We further advise that it is a psychological conditioning that they can and should seek therapy for. Just as depressed, suicidal and angry people have shrinks that they see, so can homosexuals.
There have been comparisons to pedophilia. This is an unbalanced comparison as pedophilia is clearly a case of physical and mental dominance.
I was not concentrating on the physical aspects of it, nor was I focusing on the fact that it is unconsentual abuse of children. What I was focusing on when I made this comparison is the fact that BOTH homosexuals and pedophiles have a mental depravity which causes them to think how they do and perform the acts that they do. Just as it is wrong and against God's design for grown men to have their way with children, it is just as wrong and just as against GOD's design for two people of the same sex to enjoy the sexual relationship that they have with each other. If we continue to say that these people were born that way and that they have genes that cause them to be this way, then we can accept the same argument and excuses for pedophiles and rapists. As far as the theory that there is scientific evidence to support the Born that way view, it remains only a theory. That theory has never been scientifically substantiated. Most Importantly, it has no support or basis in The Quran.
It was also said in this thread that not all homosexuals have sex and that they live together and enjoy each others company and companionship. I believe this is false otherwise why would they claim to be homosexual? Also, I can enjoy that kind of relationship with another man.....it's called best friends or roommates. I have a best friend who is male. We enjoy each others company and we do love each other. We grew up together and he is my closest friend. If I didn't have a family to support, it's quite possible that we would share the same apartment or something. That's what best friends do. So to say that not all HS have sex is an untruth. If they are not having sex, they are not HS they are merely best friends. If they are having sex, then they are HS. No one who claims to be a HS and has a partner merely has that partner as a friend w/out them also performing their acts privately. That's nonsense.
The same cannot be said of 2 people of the same gender involved in a consentual physical and spiritual bond. They see nothing wrong with what they're doing.
Yes, this is true Tay. But Christians see nothing wrong with saying that GOD has a son who died for our sins. Sunnis see nothing wrong with stoning people for adultery. Child abusers see nothing wrong with beating their kids with switches and chords. All of these people have to be made to see what is wrong their orientations and behaviour.
I ask that you imagine yourself sitting face to face with a person who is admittedly gay and sees nothing wrong with their chosen lifestyle. What do you say to this person?
The first thing that I would do is ask them if they are going to be honest with me and tell me the truth. If they agree to this, then the next thing I will ask is about their personal history. (childhood experiences, upbringing, relevent milestones, etc.) This, of course, is the territory of Therapists and Psychologists. But I do believe that this is the treatment that needs to be undertaken. For the record, quite a few years (when I was still a teenager) there was this dude who was from my neighborhood. He was never like a hardcore thug, but he wasn't what one might call limp wristed (for lack of a better term) He was always into stealing cars, selling drugs, etc. Just a real loser type cat. Anyway, he went to prison for some years (he did Federal time) and came back home gay. Some years have past when it finally came out that he had his manhood taken while he was there and he has since struggled with his identity and orientation. My uncle had similar incedents when he was in prison and instead of becoming gay, he impregnated like 4 or 5 women within the same week or two. It is said in psychology in circles that those who do this, do so to re-inforce their manhood with themselves. So it's all psychological.
What do you say to your children when they ask you about their gay teacher who is "really nice"?
That mainly depends on what age my child is when this question is asked. But for the most part, I will try to point out to him what is said in The Quran. But this will depend on him being a certain age to understand and that I have laid a good Quranic foundation in our family life. I will also try to use logic to get him to see how unnatural and against GOD's design it is. However, one thing I will not leave out is that this gay teacher has a history that contributes to his outlook on life. We all have a history and it is due to these histories that we have the views and outlooks that we do.
I would liken their situation to one who is physically or mentally disabled in some fashion.
I would personally liken it to a mental disability.
However, should they choose to seek counsel, I would certainly be willing to listen and help them find the root of the problem.
I believe that this is a very noble approach. )
Although I did kiss this thread goodbye a couple of days ago, Tays presence and attempts to establish direction and some sense of root causes and possible solutions compelled me to add my two cents.
Salaam,
Damon. -
peace,
Does anyone in this forum intimately know any out of the closet homosexuals? just curious..... roll
I keep reading a lot of condemnation with no answers...what's the point of this discussion?
Damon, thanks for your opinion of a fix, bro. Too bad most systems do not support universal health care where people with this "psychological problem" can get help....What's going to come first "curing" homosexuality or constructing/reconstructing a society to be able to do so....
But this is completely my opinion. In my own deen, I have coined the phrase "fight the system, not the symptom." But that's just me. To each its own.
and just as a side note I disagree that homosexuality is an exclusive result of some type of life trauma. It could be any number of things. Particularly here in America, the causes could be countless....hormone induced food, environment, pop culture, broken families, industrialization, life trauma, peer pressure, genetic mutations caused from only the God knows......the list could go on and on...its a crazy system...
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Peace Damon,
Thank you for the kindness.
You stated
Although I don't claim to be a Psychology Major, I believe that we can identify the problem. I personally believe that the problem is a Psychological Problem. Therefor, a Psychological Solution needs to be implemented.
I don't mean to split hairs nor be difficult, but quite the opposite. Calling the problem a psychological problem has not identified it, only categorized it. While I agree that homosexuality is psychological, and would add only that the physical presence of hormones amplifies this state of mind, I still do not think we have adequately identified the problem.
In other words, if I were to play devil's advocate here, and you said, "It's wrong to be gay", I would respond with, "How is it wrong?". See, the gay person has a good argument, particularly if he's not one of those few "virulently gay activist type in your face ultra PC liberal homosexuals", to quote brother Truth. The average gay person lives a normal life, works 9-5, vacations for 1.2 weeks a year, goes out to dinner once a week, etc. The only difference is that when he goes to bed there's a guy waiting for him. And for the most part, you and I don't see this at all.
So what is the problem? How is being gay "wrong"? We need to identify the concept without preconception. I may think it is disgusting but that doesn't make it wrong. I mean, I think putting mayonnaise on french fries is disgusting, but it's apparently the thing to do in Europe.
We need to break away from cultural biases and objectively identify the problem, if it in fact is a problem. Personally, I don't want to see my kids growing up in a society that is even more homosexually encouraging as it is today. I'd love nothing more than to nip this thing in the bud and erase it from my memories.
But that is my personal understanding. I've never been gay nor had homosexual close-calls. Who am I to judge them based on my biases. And I've seen the worst of it. Growing up, I was a club-kid at Limelight in NYC. Our favorite night was gay night, aka, Disco2000. I've seen some things that I will not tell my kids about. I've been hit on by homosexuals, groped, and oogled. I have a good friend that was molested by his uncle, another that was molested by his father. My point is, I have every reason through experience to have a prejudice, but I cannot formulate a solid theory as to why it's wrong.
Thus my reasons for leaving the judgement to God, because only God knows if anyone was ever born gay. I am not capable of making that assumption. But in my heart, or so I think, I feel there is definitely something wrong with it. Thus, my desire to teach my children to be sympathetic, but not encouraging, as we all have our vices and weaknesses.
One of the telling experiences I had was with a good friend/co-worker. We had one of those conversations where we both let our guard down and we just talked. I asked him about his lifestyle, and he told me, "Tay, if I had one wish, it would be that I wasn't gay. I wish I was attracted to women. You have no idea how hard it is to be gay and black in this society."
That's where I'll leave it.
Peace,
Tay -
Salaam,
Does anyone in this forum intimately know any out of the closet homosexuals? just curious..... roll
Yea I do. My friends sister who used to be crazy for me left for like a year and came back a lesbian. Well I can't say she was not from before, but she was definately acting heterosexual before she left. She's got a hot girlfriend too.
I personally think being attracted to the same sex has gradations for different individuals. Some will be on two extreme ends and others anywhere in-between .
Joe
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Peace
As did he then create Killers, peadophiles, rapist, without given them a choice then. To blame those is to blame man for his existance. Look, i dont know why God is so specific in ALL the scriptures about this. In the Bible they are even supposed to stone them to death. What we can do, and rightly so, is accept peoples right to chose as long as it doesnt hurt anybody else. But what you demand, is that we accept the action itself. I cant, and i wont. God is our judge however, not us, not me, not you not anybody. God alone.
Regards
NoahKhi- Salam. We can judge in accordance with the scripture
We have sent down to you the SCRIPTURE, truthfully, in order TO JUDGE among the people in accordance with what GOD has shown you. You shall not side with the betrayers.
Thus we r 2 judge with the scripture. Dont we punish criminals? Similarly hs is a criminal act 2 society n must be punished. But this is not only so 4 hs but also 4 pre marital sex or sex out of wedlock or adultery. This is also a criminal act n ought 2 be punished. 2day ppl in the west dont view these 2 acts as crimnalistic anymore n thts the tragedy. The US i believe will be reinforcing these laws soon as creationists r becoming strong agaisn. GOD Bless!Peace
this is bending the word i think.
God punished the people of lot, nobody else. God tells us that for some reason its not looked light upon, but there are no order for us to deal with it, other than to show compassion otwards others.Yes we must use it to judge, and we can in 2 ways.
1.The places where God says there is a punishment, and tell us what it is.
2.Moral judgement, are what you or other peope do in alligenment with the scripture.God does never run out of words, if he wanted us to punish homosexuals, it would have been made clear in the Quran.
Yeah the US is a perfect example of what a state should NOT be. In theory its good, but in work, omg, dont get me started!
So you argue that it is zina. But i dont agree, its not because the whole act itself is condemned and shoudlt happen. Zina as an illigal relationship between 2 otherwise legal party's. I claim that regarding homosexuals we should rather apply the "You belive what you want to, and so will we".
Regards
Noah -
peace,
Does anyone in this forum intimately know any out of the closet homosexuals? just curious..... roll
raises hand
She broke my heart ?
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Peace SalikahDc.
Yes i do. But i dont see it as my life assignment to , as you correctly put it, fight the symptom. And why would i want to make them feel bad and perhaps make them commit even greater sins, like blasphemy. No, it is between them and God, were just told not to do it. Its that simple. The Quran applys to those that freely wishes to let its moral teachings guide them.
regards
Noah -
ahoy hoy
As did he then create Killers, peadophiles, rapist, without given them a choice then. To blame those is to blame man for his existance.
im sorry but i completely disagree, your sexual orientation is not something you choose, homosexuals, transexuals, heamaphradites and heterosexual do not choose which gender they are attracted to, ask yourself, did you choose? but weather you kill somoene or not, rape someone or not, this is your own choice, a decision you make.
On another note, im not expecting people to accept the actions of homosexuals just to not carry some hatred towards them. I'm curious as to what people in this thread would do if they found their son/daugter to be homosexual..
toodles
the kebab monster
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Hullo
Homoism is a choice, as is all of life,
left or right, up or down
front or behind.....(not literally)for one to judge another is for a sinner to judge a sinner,
let he without sin cast the 1st stone.
Altho homsexulity is forbidden in the Qu'ran so is a lot of other stuff...such as killing ppl...
but put under certain cirumstances even the most religious would put a man down... similally homosim is also putting a man down.......in certain circumstances rollIn conclusion altho alot say it is wrong, history has repeatedly shown us the majority is always wrong.
remember the nazis eh..eh...
n will young on pop idol wot were the majority thinking.Peace
Out
The B-A-T
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Salaams Lote, All
You keep talking about phobia! What phobia? You want the normal society that reproduced you to accept such "unnatural" bahaviour? Why?
OK. What do you want us to do about homosexuals?
Regards,
It is not about WANT. It is about CAN! What can you do about them? Those people are supported by the system in those countries (maybe the one you are living in) and they are playing the victim part very well which you are falling for it! Look at you! You think that if you don't support them then you must be homophobic (what you kept labelling us here)!!!