homosexuality, the way forward?
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"I will speak for myself, I have no such feelings. To them I say, by all means, do what you wanna do... we will wait too."
Good attitude Zenje. I had never problems with other peoples homosexuality.
"The problem comes in when one tries to justify it with God's words..."
I am not justifying anything with God or scripture here nor should anyone else use God and Scripture to condemn homosexuality. Accept homosexuality and then move on. Our aim should be to go beyond sexuality of an individual.
Lote Tree wrote
The fact is Sex is pleasurable. Sex can be an expression of Love for another individual. Sex is not an end in itself but by means by which loving relationships can be strengthened. But when two people truly love each other sex is no longer important. Sex can be discarded.zene wrote
"Yes... base desires... and can be discarded. It is we who need to transcend it... not God"Did I imply that we need to Trascend God? I said we need to use our belief in a trascended God to see beyond individuals sexuality.
"Yes... but what are we talking about?... how one can get pleasure? If thats the topic here, then my apologies, and I'm out. If not, then can we stick to the topic? What are we basing our discussion on really... quran?... science?... personal desires?..."
Here I put my whole wording again. We are talking about that it is the idea of homosexual sex that people are uncomfortable with.
LoteTree wrote
I think it is the sexual aspect that makes people uncomfortable about homosexuality. It is the ?un-natural? nature of homosexual sex that upsets a lot of people. Why is it so unnatural? Some have given examples of ?plug? and ?socket?. Is that the only way to have sex? If the plug fits then sex is ok. If it does not, then it is unnatural. How limited way of thinking is this! There are more ways of giving sexual pleasure than penetrative sex. Sex is not everything in a homosexual relationship neither it is in a heterosexual marriages. Recognise sex for what is. Sex is just pleasurable and how this pleasure is given, I think is not relevant to us. Is it not every individuals desire to be in a loving relationship? Is that not the most important thing?So tell me Zenje what is more important? Sex or Love?
Regards,
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Salaam,
I do not have a problem with homosexuals unless they start hitting on me. I'm sort of prejudiced against them as well and sometimes even think other people may be homosexual when they are not. Like when a dude is all up in my space and always touching me .
Joe
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I also speak for myself when I say that I am not homophobic. I do not hate them, I do not condone gay bashing, nor do I personally condem them as a people. It is their acts that I condem, not the people!!"
Good Damon, that makes us three of so far -)
"It is their acts that I condem, not the people!!"
You mean two "plugs" pleasuring each other you find deplorable? Why?
Bro, in all seriousness, this sort of logic has no place in the discussion. We are talking about US HUMANS, the creation, NOT GOD who is the creator. Two different entities altogether.
Why not Damon? Whats wrong in striving for a spirituality the goes beyond Gender and sex? We are here on this earth to grow both intellectually and spiritually. Do you think God will allow people to go to heaven with prejudices intact? I don't think so. If we are unable to debate this then we are stunting our growth as individuals.
"First of all, sex is used as a vehicle of pro-creation. How else do we naturally keep the species known as man in existence? As far as the sex is pleasurable logic, what else would you prefer it to be? It's quite enough that women go through plenty of discomfort when giving birth, why the need to have discomfort when performing the act that caused her to give birth to a new life?"
I said Damon, sex is pleasureable. It is for this pleasurable aspect that people engage in sex. Procreation then follows. Without pleasureable aspect of Sex the human race would have died out long time ago. God gave woman clitoris so that they may have pleasure in sex too. To imply that God gave clitoris to woman to compensate for childbirth is ludicrous. Function of the clitoris is just for pleasure and nothing else. Did you know that clitorial gland has more than 10 thousand different nerve endings? This is more than than any other gland in a woman's or man's body!
Me personally I'm not upset at all. It's their life. They have to answer for their own deeds just like I have to answer for mine. However, I will speak out if I see someone trying to give the seal of approval of this by using The Quran.
No. I am not trying to approve homosexuality using scripture Damon. All I am trying to say that we must see beyond the sexuality of a human being.
No, it is not, the rules and code of conduct that GOD has mandated for us is what's the most important thing. The Quran condems in no uncertain terms those who place their own desires above what GOD said.
I disagree with you on this. It is the individuals who are in a truly loving relationship, who put love as the important thing in their life find beauty and happiness in this world, which in turn reorients their lives to the Divine. These kind of people become more God-centred, understanding, tolerant and more spiritual.
Regards,
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But there is something else more important than either of these, and pretty much anything else I can think of. To Serve God.
I wish you could see the power of Divine Love then you would have realised God is beyond Servitude...
Regards,
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I wish you could see the power of Divine Love then you would have realised God is beyond Servitude...
I wish you could see the power of God, then you would have realised your divine lovey dovey means little or nothing.- Say ?Continue waiting; for I will wait along with you.?
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I wish you could see the power of God, then you would have realised your divine lovey dovey means little or nothing.
I do thats why God does not need my servitude. Perhaps he does yours since you can't concieve God beyond that of Master and Servant relationship...but perhaps that arument under another topic -)
Regards,
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Peace all,
Dear Someone,
Fisrt, those males had mates, so it's not a simple "sex desire" they had.781 plainly says that the men approached other men with desire. It is plain to read and quite simple. This verse mentions nothing else but that.
Second, they even refused to have more females (Lot's daughters), so they were looking for something else.
Exactly!! They were looking for something else other than what was offered to them and what GOD had alreay blessed them with.......and that was men. The verse plainly says it!!
Lastly, they were adressed as from "al-alameen" (kwonlegeables as per my understanding), thus stressing the fact that they are "knowingly" performing such acts with a specific purpose, not a simple desire.
This may sound arrogant, but I guarantee you that you are misreading this verse. Of course they knowingly approached men with ill intent, because they instinctively knew that this was wrong, hence they were called a transgressing people.
As for the animal part, we are basically animals of the specie "bashar", our basic behaviours are comparable with those of other animals. Surely, by acquiring language and knowledge, we emancipate to a higher plan, but still we keep those instincts in us, in a more controlled way.
Until you can post a verse in The Quran that is addressed to animals of the wild, this argument is both basless and pointless.
Dear Lote-Tree,
. Do you think God will allow people to go to heaven with prejudices intact?I certainly do because He Himself is prejudiced towards Shirk. The Message says that those who die in a state of shirk will Never be admitted into Paradise. That says it all. If there weren't any prejudices towards certain things that we should hold to, then why would GOD even bother to reveal scripture in the first place if alot of these things didn't matter??
If we are unable to debate this then we are stunting our growth as individuals.
Actually, this will be my final post in this thread. People are going to believe and uphold that which they want to. But I also have to say that it isn't about debate. Everytime The Quran speaks of Lawful sexual relationship it is always spoken of in two contexts
1). Marriage and...
2). Between male and femaleI am waiting for someone here to post a verse where The Quran okays a sexual relationship between the same sex as it does the sexual relationship between the opposite sex.
Without pleasureable aspect of Sex the human race would have died out long time ago
That's the very point that I was making myself. There is absolutely nothing natural about two men engaging in their activities. The first few times they do that, I'm sure that it's not an experience most normal people would welcome. It's obvious that they only get used to it in time. But it is also a fact that the elasticity in that part of their anatomy wears out over time to where they have to wear like Depends or something because they literally go to the bathroom on themselves and they cannot control it.
To imply that God gave clitoris to woman to compensate for childbirth is ludicrous
Well to start with, I never said that. And I think it's wrong to to tell someone what they are implying. Unless you specifically say a thing, I will not assume that you are implying something because I may be wrong.
Secondly, if the woman did not have the clitoris, more than likely the act of sex would be as unpleasurable as labor and none of the woman would be willing to engage in it. If that were the case, I would have to repeat what you said yourself.....
Without pleasureable aspect of Sex the human race would have died out long time ago.I disagree with you on this. It is the individuals who are in a truly loving relationship, who put love as the important thing in their life find beauty and happiness in this world, which in turn reorients their lives to the Divine. These kind of people become more God-centred, understanding, tolerant and more spiritual.
They commit a gross sin, then say, "We found our parents doing this, and GOD has commanded us to do it." Say, "GOD never advocates sin. Are you saying about GOD what you do not know?"
On an ending note, I must express my disappointment in how some free-minders may even consider okaying this with GOD. We are supposed to free our minds, not lose them. I think it to be immoral and quite tasteless that some people are so gung ho about abandoning tradition that they now seek to re-invent the wheel so to speak. It is really bothersome when we discover that these people seek to condone such acts in the name of being Politically Correct. Progressivemuslims.com (which is where I believe Leyla is from) has already treaded this path. It seems there may some here who wish to tread that same path. Sorry for the harsh and forthright tone, but if no one else is going to say anything about it, then I will. Please read everysingle passage in The Quran concerning the community of Lut. It is written in plain language, the subject matter is very clear and no where close to being ambigous or confusing. Believe you will and behave as you will. We wil all be held accountable.
Salaam,
Damon. -
Salaam!
Well, well, well ... .
idolfree1, chromosomes or not, hermaphrodites still don?t fit your "plug" and "socket" idea. By the way, hermaphrodites are not simply hermaphrodites. There are different kinds of hermaphroditism. But to discuss about this would be a little bit off topic I fear.
A lot of replys and a lot of thoughts and I don?t know if I can still go with the flow.
As I wrote, my thoughts are still a half cooked soup that I still wanted to share as a contribution.
The traditional interpretation doesn?t convince me and the arguments brought forwards here in favour of it still don`t convince me. I have heard them before. However, coming from them I started to see a different picture. Which might be right or wrong.
I think I will retreat from this discussion until my soup is ready. One shouldn?t offend guests with raw vegetables.
(this sounds a little bit like an angry teenager .... no, I?m not angry at all and not really offended; I just mention a decision of mine taken through reason)Whatever, I would like to adress one last thing
I think it is sad that one can?t discuss an issue like that without suspicions coming up. No, I am not from progressivemuslims.com. I haven?t even visited that page for .....months? ..... years? ..... .
At the moment I don?t even recall the content of that webpage, although the name gives hints.
I am an independent person affiliated with no definit ideological organisation or club (despite the fact that I am a citizen of somethign called "state") and I am struggling to understand the quran for my own growth. That?s all.
Actually, it might be quite possible, that I read and studied every single passage of the story of Lut much more often than you, Damon. Maybe.
(ooo, gosh, now who?s becoming emotional .... laughing.... behave leyla)
And I don?t know how people here come to judge or know my motives for sharing thoughts. They are not what you may think. But think what you like.
And, personally, I do have a big dislike for political correctness. Its sometimes , quite personally, a very disturbing attitude for me.
That should have been said.Peace,
Leyla
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Peace Damon, all
I'm in no way encouranging homosexuality, it's certainely a crooked path. On the other hand, it exists, it is a part of the reality, so we have to deal with it in a way or another. Simply ignoring it is not a solution.
Concernig Lot's community, Do you think that the messengers sent to Lot had the ability to choose to not have any contact with those men? or were they forced to?
Any man can refuse such invitation if he wills, and for sure, if he can.
And as another example of human's ability to go this far, it was related to me that in some jails, the law inside is applied in this way, to organise some sort of hierarchy.
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I wish you could see the power of God, then you would have realised your divine lovey dovey means little or nothing.
I do thats why God does not need my servitude. Perhaps he does yours since you can't concieve God beyond that of Master and Servant relationship...but perhaps that arument under another topicI didn't say God needs my servitude, but it is me who is in need. idea
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Oh, I forgot to mention... I went to a chat room at Yahoo... and realize now about homophobia lol It started with one guy who said something like - USA is kuffar. Then went on to explain how people in US have public gay sex. Later he defended his country (Pakistan), by saying there is no such thing as a gay paki. shock lol He also said that Saudi Arabia does things right by killing gays, and when I asked him whether gay people should be killed, he said, atleast they should be treated harshly. ?
Peace people and have a nice weekend! D
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Dear Lote-Tree,
. Do you think God will allow people to go to heaven with prejudices intact?I certainly do because He Himself is prejudiced towards Shirk. The Message says that those who die in a state of shirk will Never be admitted into Paradise. That says it all. If there weren't any prejudices towards certain things that we should hold to, then why would GOD even bother to reveal scripture in the first place if alot of these things didn't matter??
Well I might as well reply since you will not be posting anything new on this.
God revealed Scripture so that you can overcome your prejuidices. Ask yourself this question - If homosexuality against God why did God create homosexuals in the first place? And don't say we choose to be homosexuals. If you think you can choose to be homosexual, I want you to try this at home to see if you can.
If we are unable to debate this then we are stunting our growth as individuals.
Actually, this will be my final post in this thread. People are going to believe and uphold that which they want to. But I also have to say that it isn't about debate. Everytime The Quran speaks of Lawful sexual relationship it is always spoken of in two contexts
1). Marriage and...
2). Between male and femaleIt is about debate. Homosexuality is a fact of life. We have to learn to deal with it. We have to show an understanding that goes beyond people's sexuality and accept as they are and not as we want them.
I am waiting for someone here to post a verse where The Quran okays a sexual relationship between the same sex as it does the sexual relationship between the opposite sex.
No one here is trying to OK homosexuality. We are trying to understand homosexuality as a fact of life and learn to deal with it constructively.
That's the very point that I was making myself. There is absolutely nothing natural about two men engaging in their activities. The first few times they do that, I'm sure that it's not an experience most normal people would welcome. It's obvious that they only get used to it in time. But it is also a fact that the elasticity in that part of their anatomy wears out over time to where they have to wear like Depends or something because they literally go to the bathroom on themselves and they cannot control it.
It is the sexual act that makes you uncomfortable doesn't it. What about mutual masturbation or oral sex? It is still sex. It is still pleasureable. Homosexuals do not always penetrate that part of the anatomy you are speaking about and some homosexuals do not do this at all. But why should we be interested what two consensual adults get up to in their privicy of their room? By all means uphold your view that homosexuality is wrong in your eyes but do not deny personal liberty of others.
Secondly, if the woman did not have the clitoris, more than likely the act dof sex would be as unpleasurable as labor and none of the woman would be willing to engage in it. If that were the case, I would have to repeat what you said yourself.....
Without pleasureable aspect of Sex the human race would have died out long time ago.What I was trying to tell was that Clitoris is designed for woman pleasure only. This has nothing to do with connection. And sex would not have been painful as labour it just that women would not been interested at all...
I disagree with you on this. It is the individuals who are in a truly loving relationship, who put love as the important thing in their life find beauty and happiness in this world, which in turn reorients their lives to the Divine. These kind of people become more God-centred, understanding, tolerant and more spiritual.
They commit a gross sin, then say, "We found our parents doing this, and GOD has commanded us to do it." Say, "GOD never advocates sin. Are you saying about GOD what you do not know?"
No one is condoning homosexuality here. Accept homosexuality as fact of life and learn to live with it...
On an ending note, I must express my disappointment in how some free-minders may even consider okaying this with GOD. We are supposed to free our minds, not lose them. I think it to be immoral and quite tasteless that some people are so gung ho about abandoning tradition that they now seek to re-invent the wheel so to speak. It is really bothersome when we discover that these people seek to condone such acts in the name of being Politically Correct. Progressivemuslims.com (which is where I believe Leyla is from) has already treaded this path. It seems there may some here who wish to tread that same path. Sorry for the harsh and forthright tone, but if no one else is going to say anything about it, then I will. Please read everysingle passage in The Quran concerning the community of Lut. It is written in plain language, the subject matter is very clear and no where close to being ambigous or confusing. Believe you will and behave as you will. We wil all be held accountable.
Again no one is okaying homosexuality. We are trying to understand it, accept it as a fact of life and learn to live with it...and please dont make this personal. Be objecitive about it...
Regards,
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Peace,
Firstly to Leyla, the genotypic -> phenotypic sexuality issues are very complex but fortunately even the most common abnormalities are very rare. True hermaphroditism is rarer still with maybe 20 cases reported ever - so it's not something you are going to have to encounter.
Secondly to Lotetree, You are advocating a non homophobic stance. The term homophobia is a tricky thing. I AM phobic towards the BEHAVIOUR of homosexuality. I am not on the other hand phobic towards people as a matter of course. I think the 'phobia' is describing more the discrimination and prejudice issues against people who practice the behaviour of homosexuality.
People who PRACTICE homosexuality are actually more guilty of the things you accuse than normally oriented people. The reason is that they define their entire conception of themselves based on their attraction to people of the same sex. They adopt an encapsulated posture choosing to separate themselves from the rest of people by adopting labelss such as 'gay' and 'lifestyle' and 'culture' etc. So how can you blame the otherwise ignorant people who also then lump the behaviour in with the person.
The 'pleasure' aspect of sexuality is what is the driving force for procreation. I can assure you that if sexual intercourse were as mundane as clipping one's nails that mankind may have been extinct already.
People who practice homosexuality (note I'm always making the separation between the person and the behaviour) are those who only ever concentrate on the pleasure of sexuality - they are given to their desires and elevate them over other things. Don't get me wrong, people who are heterosexual may also give themselves over to sexuality and make it an idol - it's just that with the 'cutting of the way' with homosexuality it makes it a completely sensual pursuit.
So having established that the person and the behaviour are separate - should we ever avoid or be phobic towards people based on behaviour? The reading certainly gives the final solution to people who practice homosexuality. God tells his believing servant to move away from them after having tried to advise them. Our duty must involve trying to advise them. But if they do not reform from their behaviour then one must leave them to God's dispensation.
4140 He has instructed you in the scripture that if you hear GOD's revelations being mocked and ridiculed, you shall not sit with them, unless they delve into another subject. Otherwise, you will be as guilty as they are. GOD will gather the hypocrites and the disbelievers together in Hell.
There you see that God advises the avoiding of people conditional on their behaviour. Some persons who practice homosexuality may well otherwise be decent humans and merit interaction. There are some however who are 'raving' or completely 'over the top' who flaunt their homosexual behviour and are advocates of it. They are almost like proselytizers of the 'homosexual lifestyle'. Examples might be Julian Clary and Graham Norton. They are hardened in the wikedness of this behaviour. I find these people abhorrent and cannot justify looking at or listening to them. Similarly 'Queer eye for the straight guy' etc. type of programs also border on what's reasonable. Proselytizing of a wicked behaviour is worthy of condemnation in my mind.
Regards.
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Peace Truth,
Well said. )
One,
Damon. -
Salaams All,
Is it not every individuals desire to be in a loving relationship? Is that not the most important thing?
Regards,
That is really very romantic but let me tell you something, LT
Ask any homosexual if he can live in a society that consists of men only, or if she can live in a society that consists of women only? What would his/her answer be? And for how long would they be able to survive (in a single-gendered place!)? The homosexuals are taking advantage of the normal society around them whether they are in the closet (like in the Arab world) or out in the open (like in the western world).
And I am really wondering here if the homosexual really appreciate himself/herself then he/she is actually appreciating the fact that he/she came to this world as a result of a normal relationship (male+female). He or she wouldn't be in this world by two people of the same gender, or would he/she? So why are they encouraging a behavior that won't reproduce people like them??? -
Hello Truth,
Secondly to Lotetree, You are advocating a non homophobic stance. The term homophobia is a tricky thing. I AM phobic towards the BEHAVIOUR of homosexuality. I am not on the other hand phobic towards people as a matter of course. I think the 'phobia' is describing more the discrimination and prejudice issues against people who practice the behaviour of homosexuality.
If you have managed to educate yourself to be non phobic towards homosexuals thats well and truly good. This is what we all should aim for to see to see individuals as individuals.
And I understand what your are trying to say when you say you are phobic towards the behaviour of homosexuality. What I was trying to say in my earlier posts is that its the homosexual sex that makes people uncomfortable about homosexuality . But not all homosexuals engage in the kind of sex acts that you are phobic about. Again we need to educate ourselves to go beyond this "uncomfortablility" about homosexual sex. I am not saying I approve of homosexual sexual acts but we should not be phobic about it.
People who PRACTICE homosexuality are actually more guilty of the things you accuse than normally oriented people.
I am not clear on this. Can you elaborate.
The reason is that they define their entire conception of themselves based on their attraction to people of the same sex.
You could say this of heterosexuals too?
They adopt an encapsulated posture choosing to separate themselves from the rest of people by adopting labelss such as 'gay' and 'lifestyle' and 'culture' etc.
I don't think they choose to separate themselves rather it is the prejuidices that pushes them into grouping themselves.
The 'pleasure' aspect of sexuality is what is the driving force for procreation. I can assure you that if sexual intercourse were as mundane as clipping one's nails that mankind may have been extinct already.
I think you have miss the point. It was said that Sex was for Procreation only. I said no, sex is for pleasure that is why woman have a clitoris. We all agree that without the pleasureable aspect of sex procreation would not happen and humanity would have died out.
Don't get me wrong, people who are heterosexual may also give themselves over to sexuality and make it an idol
Agreed. Can we not see homosexuality in the same light? Those who pursue sex as end in itself are making idols regardless of what sexual orientation they are?
So having established that the person and the behaviour are separate - should we ever avoid or be phobic towards people based on behaviour?
I say lets go beyond our phobias. It is the fear that stunts our intellectual and spiritual growth. Lets overcome our fears and not reinforce them.
The reading certainly gives the final solution to people who practice homosexuality. God tells his believing servant to move away from them after having tried to advise them. Our duty must involve trying to advise them.
Homosexual behaviour is between two consenting adults in the privicy of their bedroom. Should we have the right to peer into the room?
But if they do not reform from their behaviour then one must leave them to God's dispensation.
Here you have answered the question. Homosexuality is fact of life. We must learn to deal with it and live with it. It is up to God to judge them on their homosexuality, since God made them in this way...
Again I am not condoning homosexuality. I asking people to educate themselves to go beyond the phobias and accept individuals as they are as God made them...
Regards,
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That is really very romantic but let me tell you something, LT
Ask any homosexual if he can live in a society that consists of men only, or if she can live in a society that consists of women only?Hello Taj,
Homosexuality will always be a minority in a population. So don't worry we will not be overrun by homosexuals in the long run. Research has shown that even in the Animal Kingdom, a minority of the population show homosexual behaviour...why is that? Why would God create homosexual ducks for instances?
Regards,
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That is really very romantic but let me tell you something, LT
Ask any homosexual if he can live in a society that consists of men only, or if she can live in a society that consists of women only?Hello Taj,
Homosexuality will always be a minority in a population. So don't worry we will not be overrun by homosexuals in the long run. Research has shown that even in the Animal Kingdom, a minority of the population show homosexual behaviour...why is that? Why would God create homosexual ducks for instances?
Regards,
Salaams Lote,
I disagree with you. I don't think that homosexuality is a minority. And even if it is, then it must be something like 4951! And I don't trust polls anyway. I think that the majority of people would choose the wrong way if they were given a chance! As a matter of fact we are overrun by homosexuals just check the media!
I also cannot compare humans with animals, and frankly, humans can be far worse than animals the Quran clearly states that!
Allah does not intend the wrong behavior. If animals are doing something wrong then that is because they are ANIMALS!Taj