Salam,there is a physical salat
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Salaam Idolfree
As Soon as you release your non-Islaamic article, twisting the clear meaning of Al Qur'aan, let me know so that I can analyze it.
Salaam
Peace be upon you Al Khidr,
What type of article do you plan on writing if you reject clear and obvious evidence in the Qur'aan that there is physical prostration as part of performing Salaat? What Qur'aan are you reading, a trick Qur'aan?
It will be the kind of article that you certainly are not forced to follow.
But you have just made my job more tedious as I realize now that I must include an explanation of ruku and sujood, which I sometimes forget that many have not understood yet.
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Salaam
That Arabic word means both "worship" and "serve" and "slave". Many people who know Arabic will agree with this. But of course they will disagree with it meaning worship because they are watering that tenant of Islaam down. Remember you are talking to a guy (such as idolfree) who does not see physical prostration in the Qur'aan, that alone should tell you something. When you get a chance if you haven't yet, analyze Ahmed's thread on physical Salaat, he provided some good info.
Salaam
brother i have read it means serve,but i dunt quite understand how ppl served the golden calf??They obviously worshipped it.....maybe worship is a horrible english word...lol....i mean its meaning is not very appropriate....i mean we adore and reverence God..thats what i mean by worship....though the word does not convey the idea well enuff..peace bro...still awaiting your article..
Salam
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That Arabic word means both "worship" and "serve" and "slave".
Neither of these!!
3abad means to obey, to yield; hence 3abd is a slave because he/she obeys not because they serve. A paved road is said to be "mu3abbad" (serving pedestrians); sunflower 3abbadulshams or the flower that's yielding to the sun.
As for slave, there are two meanings one who is obedient by their choice (plural 3ibaad), and this is only used for believers in God; and those who are forced to obey (plural 3abeed) in relation to slaves of people and to The Lord (Rab).
God refers to 3ibadihi when He speaks as "Allah, Ilah" and refers to 3abeed when He speaks as the Lord (Rab). He is (Rabbul 3alameen) whether we believe in Him or not, and thus we are His 3abeed (mentioned in 5 verse only, one context 3182; 851; 2210; 4146; 5022), but He is the God "Illah" to the believers only and they are His "3ibaad".
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As Salaamu Alaykum Samia
I have stated or made reference that abd means worship, slave, servant and you came behind me and gave a response by saying "Neither of these". I see that you in the absolute sense removed the Arabic word "abd" from meaning worship, slave, servant, what foolishness. My only advice I have for you is to take a beginners course in Arabic. Unlike yourself who provided zero documentation/resources to back up what you said, I on the other hand have provided this link saturated with evidence which clearly proves that abd means what I have stated
http//www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/abd.htm
and at the same token we can also see idolfree's lack of knowledge of this word when he only defines it as "serve" in reference to Allah when it can also be appropriately translated as "worship" Allah.
Salaam
That Arabic word means both "worship" and "serve" and "slave".
Neither of these!!
3abad means to obey, to yield; hence 3abd is a slave because he/she obeys not because they serve. A paved road is said to be "mu3abbad" (serving pedestrians); sunflower 3abbadulshams or the flower that's yielding to the sun.
As for slave, there are two meanings one who is obedient by their choice (plural 3ibaad), and this is only used for believers in God; and those who are forced to obey (plural 3abeed) in relation to slaves of people and to The Lord (Rab).
God refers to 3ibadihi when He speaks as "Allah, Ilah" and refers to 3abeed when He speaks as the Lord (Rab). He is (Rabbul 3alameen) whether we believe in Him or not, and thus we are His 3abeed (mentioned in 5 verse only, one context 3182; 851; 2210; 4146; 5022), but He is the God "Illah" to the believers only and they are His "3ibaad".
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As Salaamu Alaykum Samia
Wa 3alaikas-salaam
My only advice I have for you is to take a beginners course in Arabic.
confused
Unlike yourself who provided zero documentation/resources to back up what you said, I on the other hand have provided this link
Nope. You did not provide any refernces or sources. Go back to your message.
I provided some verses to show you the only usage of "abd" as meaning "slave" with no choice in relation to The Lord.
I gave you examples of some derivatives of the root 3ain ba dal
But you call this "foolish" and do not see it as refernces.
Then you send a pathetic link as your "documentation" !!
Are these what you call "references" "saturated with evidence" for this subject?Hans Wehr is a dictionary of "Modern Written Arabic", hardly suitable for reading classical Arabic.
The others I can hardly call them references in the Arabic language. References in the "stagnant" Interpretation of the qur'aan, yes. If you are happy with the "tafseer", why are you asking?
I use Arabic classical dictionaries, but if you are not a native speaker, why should I give you these references. You do not seem to even differentiate between "abada" and "abd".
What's the meaning of "worship"? Can you use it in authentic different context (not metaphoric)?
This word in English is very static, unlike the Arabic word "abada" for which I gave you examples, as it is used in different normal context.
What would be the translation of the Arabic verb "allaha"?
4381 {"Say, if the Most Gracious had a son/children I would be the first of the "3aabideen".} How do yu understand this verse? Do you even know (or were told) that the verb "3abida" has the opposite meaning (reject, disobey)? Does Hans Wehr give this meaning? Does the PhD research you put as your refernce discuss the root 3ain ba dal and all its possibilities?
And lastly, why are you so offended by the translation "obey/yield"? Did God call us "submitters" or "worshippers"? Why do you want to belittle the verb "3abada" and reduce it to "worship"? Did God set His straight Path so that we worship it?
Come on! Before you jump to the "links saturated with evidence", think!! This is the command repeated several times in the qur'aan. If you are a "slave", you do not "think".
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Salaam Samia
?What would be the translation of the Arabic verb "allaha"?
For one I do not translate Allah as ?GOD? like you guys. Allah truely cannot be translated; there is no such translation that can equal ALLAH.
http//www.freewebs.com/suprememathematics/allah.htm
You have said, "What's the meaning of "worship", what, are you one of those Muslims who only performs Salaat 2 or 3 times a day or maybe none at all or maybe your like idolfree who does not believe there is physical prostration in Al Qur'aan? Read my thread or my link on Exposing the 3 Salaat Theory and then you will definately get a thorough understanding when I use the word "worship".
http//www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/3salaattheoryexposed.htm
Number one I have not disagreed with your explination but the obvious mistake that you have made was that you in the absolute sense said that it does not mean ?worship?, ?slave?, ?servant? when it is obvious and evident that word does possess those meanings.
?I gave you examples of some derivatives of the root 3ain ba dal?
?Then you send a pathetic link as your "documentation" !!
Are these what you call "references" "saturated with evidence" for this subject??The link that I have provided also provided the derivatives of the root word. Personally you are not impressing no body with your so-called Arabic knowledge. My link also used Qur?aanic verses, I think you need to take another look or more or less a deeper look rather then a glance and you will see the verses used as examples.
?I use Arabic classical dictionaries, but if you are not a native speaker, why should I give you these references.?
Again Samia I?m not impressed, I also use classical dictionaries, lexicons, etc. and some of the sources that are used in the link I provided are a compilation of classical dictionaries and they all define the Arabic word as ?worship?, ?servant?, ?slave? and more but you have conviently ignored that part and you still have not produced any referenced to back up your tafsir that the Arabic word we are addressing does not mean ?worship?, ?slave?, ?servant?.
?You do not seem to even differentiate between "abada" and "abd"
Samia, it is obvious that you lack observation skills. That link I have provided addressed both abd and abada, again, you need to go and try to impress some one who does not have knowledge of Arabic. Samia or maybe you just didn?t understand, should I highlight abd and abada in the sources that I used for you since you evidently did not catch it?
?And lastly, why are you so offended by the translation "obey/yield"
Samia you need to re-read my post again without emotion and you will notice that I have not attacked this aspect of which you have expounded on here. Remember it was you in the absolute sense said that Arabic word does not mean ?neither? (worship, servant, slave). It was in this area alone I had to show you other wise and I have clearly provided the documentation to prove to you that word also encompasses those meanings as well and classical dictionaries do define the word as such. For some reason you present as though the classical dictionaries are using a totally different definition. All the sources that I have provided are sound and accurate when it came to breaking the Arabic word down, you and I are arguing over, even Hans Wehr dictionary also contains definitions of that word which is directly found in classical dictionaries. Your assassination attempted on Hans Wehr definition of that one word has failed.
?Did God call us "submitters" or "worshippers"? Why do you want to belittle the verb "3abada" and reduce it to "worship"?
Again if you analyze what I have provided without emotions, you will see that I have not diminished that word to ?worship? and I only challenge YOU to prove that I have? What I have done was try to open up your eyes to the absolute definition you have diminished it to be. Remember it was you not I who said it ?neither? means ?worship?, ?servant?, ?slave?. Samia any body who has knowledge knows that Arabic word also possess such meaning. You need to wake up and think clearly without emotions. I had to only laugh when you ended with this statement
?If you are a "slave", you do not "think"
Being a slave to Allah does not encompass such meaning nor connotation.
Salaam
As Salaamu Alaykum Samia
Wa 3alaikas-salaam
My only advice I have for you is to take a beginners course in Arabic.
confused
Unlike yourself who provided zero documentation/resources to back up what you said, I on the other hand have provided this link
Nope. You did not provide any refernces or sources. Go back to your message.
I provided some verses to show you the only usage of "abd" as meaning "slave" with no choice in relation to The Lord.
I gave you examples of some derivatives of the root 3ain ba dal
But you call this "foolish" and do not see it as refernces.
Then you send a pathetic link as your "documentation" !!
Are these what you call "references" "saturated with evidence" for this subject?Hans Wehr is a dictionary of "Modern Written Arabic", hardly suitable for reading classical Arabic.
The others I can hardly call them references in the Arabic language. References in the "stagnant" Interpretation of the qur'aan, yes. If you are happy with the "tafseer", why are you asking?
I use Arabic classical dictionaries, but if you are not a native speaker, why should I give you these references. You do not seem to even differentiate between "abada" and "abd".
What's the meaning of "worship"? Can you use it in authentic different context (not metaphoric)?
This word in English is very static, unlike the Arabic word "abada" for which I gave you examples, as it is used in different normal context.
What would be the translation of the Arabic verb "allaha"?
4381 {"Say, if the Most Gracious had a son/children I would be the first of the "3aabideen".} How do yu understand this verse? Do you even know (or were told) that the verb "3abida" has the opposite meaning (reject, disobey)? Does Hans Wehr give this meaning? Does the PhD research you put as your refernce discuss the root 3ain ba dal and all its possibilities?
And lastly, why are you so offended by the translation "obey/yield"? Did God call us "submitters" or "worshippers"? Why do you want to belittle the verb "3abada" and reduce it to "worship"? Did God set His straight Path so that we worship it?
Come on! Before you jump to the "links saturated with evidence", think!! This is the command repeated several times in the qur'aan. If you are a "slave", you do not "think".
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Salaam Samia
Salaam Al-Khidr
?What would be the translation of the Arabic verb "allaha"?
For one I do not translate Allah as ?GOD? like you guys. Allah truely cannot be translated; there is no such translation that can equal ALLAH
It is not Allah, it is allaha verb. Even if I use the word God, when I use the Arabic term I wont put it in the lower case.
Don't you know that those who speak Farsi and Urdu use the term "Khoda" for "Allah"? or you are just against the non-muslims-people-language term? Never heard of "Khoda Hafez"?
?You do not seem to even differentiate between "abada" and "abd"
Samia, it is obvious that you lack observation skills. That link I have provided addressed both abd and abada, again, you need to go and try to impress some one who does not have knowledge of Arabic
I would appreciate if you refrain from making personal comments and judgements. Please stick to the subject. We do not know each other on a personal basis.
I was not referring to the link, but to your initial question where you put "abd" with other verbs, as if the word is a verb. That's how I concluded that you have little knowledge of Arabic.
I also use classical dictionaries, lexicons
And what did you find in these classical dictionaries and lexicons under the entry 3ain ba dal? Or are they translations of classical Arabic? How would anybody know that you consult such dictionaries when you put as references Hans Wehr and some translated tafseers?
My link also used Qur?aanic verses, I think you need to take another look or more or less a deeper look rather then a glance and you will see the verses used as examples
All you are doing is giving evidence that "ya3bud" is translated into "to worship". As I already mentioned, were you asking for a translation, I wouldn't have bothered replying to you. I understood that you wanted the meaning. Well, you get the translation from Hanz Wehr (no need to search the web) and the meaning from lisaanul 3araab. Consult it and forget what I said.
Translations reflect what the target language has with regard to the source word, but it is not necessarily the exact, or even the correct meaning. You were not asking for translation, but for meaning and understanding. I am not forcing anything on you or anybody here. I use Hans Wehr if I want to translate, but would definitely not use it to understand the qur'aan.
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Salaam all brothers and sisters,
According to my understanding in quran salat has more than one meaning. Here I just want to say that the verse in quran which convinces me the physical aspect of salat is 56.
56 O YOU who have attained to faith! When you are about to pray, wash your face, and your hands and arms up to the elbows, and pass your hands lightly over your head, and your feet up to the ankles. And if you are in a state. requiring total ablution, purify yourselves. But if you are ill, or are travelling, or have just satisfied a want of nature, or have cohabited with a woman, and can find no water-then take resort to pure dust, passing therewith lightly over your face and your hands. God does not want to impose any hardship on you, but wants to make you pure, and to bestow upon you the full measure of His blessings, so that you might have cause to be grateful.
Another thing I would like to share is I feel something missing (feel "dirty" if I don't perform that physical salat. I don't know whether this is due to my "habit" in my sunni days or only psychological or something else. If before or after salat I recite quran in arabic, I feel even more cleansed.
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As Salaamu Alaykum Samia,
?It is not Allah, it is allaha verb. Even if I use the word God, when I use the Arabic term I wont put it in the lower case.
Don't you know that those who speak Farsi and Urdu use the term "Khoda" for "Allah"? or you are just against the non-muslims-people-language term? Never heard of "Khoda Hafez"??
Alaha goes all the way back to Aramaic or Syretic Arabic and it is Allah, thus it?s the same word. Repeat Alaha is the same word as Allah. Remember the original Qur?aan that was revealed does not have vowel points and when you remove the vowel point like in the original Qur?aan Allah is spelled either Alaha or Alah, again it?s the same word. It does not matter if you use a capital ?G? for that Greek pagan term ?God?, its still not nor can be equal in no sense to ALLAH. Remember even if you use the capital ?G? that does not remove the pagan origins of the word and the word still can be altered and made into a feminimm, plural, etc. etc. regardless if you use the capital or not, unlike the original name Allah. The translation ?Khoda? is not a substitute. Huwa is He who He is and we can only find Allah in the oldest ancient scriptures and the Holy Qur?aan restored our Creator?s original name so there is no substitute. People use TRANSLATION in the past as well as the present to water Islaam down and we can see this game played even with the change of the Creator?s name ALLAH. All the Prophets of Allah used the original name ?ALLAH?, not ?God? nor ?Khoda?, thus any translation is a departure from the original source and I prefer the original rather then use some man-made concoction of the Creator?s original and proper name.
The word Allah is incapable of translation. It is not a common noun meaning a god or even God. It is a proper noun par excellence. No plural can be formed from it, and it is, according to the best authorities on the Arabic language, without derivation. The word connotes all the attributes of perfection and beauty in their infinitude, and denotes none but the One True and Unique God, the Absolute, Supreme, Perfect, Tender, Mighty, Gracious, Benign and Compassionate. The English word God, which is ?the common Teutonic word for a personal object of religious worship applied to all superhuman beings of heathen mythologies who exercise power over nature and man (EBr. X. p. 460), and which primarily meant only ?what is invoked? and ?what is worshipped by sacrifice? (SOED. I. p. 80, is hardly an approximate substitute.
http//www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/
?I would appreciate if you refrain from making personal comments and judgements. Please stick to the subject. We do not know each other on a personal basis.?
You should not have jumped into the ring, I call it as I see fit. You for what ever reason did not see how both terms ?abd & abada? were indicated in the link I provided so the only way that I could classify that was your lack of observation skills.
?I was not referring to the link, but to your initial question where you put "abd" with other verbs, as if the word is a verb. That's how I concluded that you have little knowledge of Arabic.?
Again you lack observation skills because there was nothing stopping YOU from looking at my analysis from a holistic perspective by including the link which for what ever reason you did not include into your analysis and in addition just like you said we do not know each other, you really do not know the depth of my Arabic knowledge but I?m not concern with your personal feelings or analysis of that and I am not impressed by any one's claim of their so-called Arabic knowledge because every body is making this claim now these days and that is why I do not waste my time asking whether or not a person knows Arabic or not, thus the proof of such claim will exist in the substance they can produce. I provided a link that addressed those words in various forms and most important of all this, your emotions made you oblivious of the points where you thought I was attacking your analysis of the word meaning ?obey/yielding? etc., etc. etc. which I never did. Let me repeat I never did. I can also see how that Arabic word can encompass those meanings in addition to the meanings that I highlighted. To be short, if you ?serve? Allah, you must or have to obey Him (Our Creator) and yield to Him, etc. etc. etc. so really Samia there was no argument from me in regards to that. My only argument was when you in the absolute sense and notice that I used the word ?absolute? when you totally removed those words from also possessing the meaning of ?worship?, ?serve?, ?slave? and also or in addition to that we have idolfree who only translate that Arabic word to mean ?serve? and it also can mean more then that especially considering the context of which it is used throughout the Qur?aan.
?And what did you find in these classical dictionaries and lexicons under the entry 3ain ba dal? Or are they translations of classical Arabic? How would anybody know that you consult such dictionaries when you put as references Hans Wehr and some translated tafseers??
Note that you have indicated by saying ?some translated tafseers?, this is a result of your ignorance of the references that I have used and remember you provided zero references of your tafsir to prove that the Arabic word we are fighting over does NOT mean ?worship?, ?slave?, ?servant?. It is true that Classical Dictionaries also translated that Arabic word as such. You have said, ?How would anybody know??, on a personal note Samia, honestly, I would hope for the ones who are interested or want to know will verify my references and also verify it in many other references that I have not used because until then, they will not know. I provided some resources (and I could have provided many more but it was not necessary for me to do so) that are easily obtainable and anybody can take it even further and I would hope that they do. We can only do so much Samia and people have to verify a lot of things themselves.
?All you are doing is giving evidence that "ya3bud" is translated into "to worship".
Samia it is only your bias emotions that cause you to diminish my resources to only ?worship? because any clear thinking man and woman can obviously see that I provided resources to show that it can be translated to mean more than just ?worship?. Some people are just caught up in their conjectures beyond reason. Also to any clear thinking man and woman who is analyzing this dialogue can see that I never denounced or refuted your explanation of the word(s), they will only see that I clearly refuted your attempted to absolutely remove those Arabic words from also meaning or possessing the meaning of ?worship?, ?slave?, ?servant?. I also noticed that you repeatidly keep highlighting ?Hans Wehr?, which only denotes a weakness in your position and logic here. Any man or woman, who have read Hans Wehr definition of the Arabic word we are fighting over can clearly see that it corresponds to all other definitions of the other sources and all classical lexicons/dictionaries. We are talking about this one word not the entire Hans Wehr book. Hans Wehr is a dictionary that is made up of both Classical Arabic words and Modern and I still see your foolish attempted to assassinate ?Hans Wehr?.
?I use Hans Wehr if I want to translate, but would definitely not use it to understand the qur'aan.?
Samia, your shuffling!! Translating is also part of understanding/studying the Qur?aan. I on the other hand examine all sources and use or take the best as Allah instructs us to, Alhamdulillah.
?I am not forcing anything on you or anybody here.?
Neither I?m I. I?m only providing resources out side of idolfree?s one dimensional approach and understanding of this Arabic word.
?Translations reflect what the target language has with regard to the source word, but it is not necessarily the exact, or even the correct meaning.?
Why don?t you tell us something we don?t know?
"You were not asking for translation, but for meaning and understanding.?
CORRECTION, I was also not seeking the meaning either but if you wanted to provide a meaning from your perspective, Alhamdulillah, I have no problem with that.
Salaam
Salaam Samia
Salaam Al-Khidr
?What would be the translation of the Arabic verb "allaha"?
For one I do not translate Allah as ?GOD? like you guys. Allah truely cannot be translated; there is no such translation that can equal ALLAH
It is not Allah, it is allaha verb. Even if I use the word God, when I use the Arabic term I wont put it in the lower case.
Don't you know that those who speak Farsi and Urdu use the term "Khoda" for "Allah"? or you are just against the non-muslims-people-language term? Never heard of "Khoda Hafez"?
?You do not seem to even differentiate between "abada" and "abd"
Samia, it is obvious that you lack observation skills. That link I have provided addressed both abd and abada, again, you need to go and try to impress some one who does not have knowledge of Arabic
I would appreciate if you refrain from making personal comments and judgements. Please stick to the subject. We do not know each other on a personal basis.
I was not referring to the link, but to your initial question where you put "abd" with other verbs, as if the word is a verb. That's how I concluded that you have little knowledge of Arabic.
I also use classical dictionaries, lexicons
And what did you find in these classical dictionaries and lexicons under the entry 3ain ba dal? Or are they translations of classical Arabic? How would anybody know that you consult such dictionaries when you put as references Hans Wehr and some translated tafseers?
My link also used Qur?aanic verses, I think you need to take another look or more or less a deeper look rather then a glance and you will see the verses used as examples
All you are doing is giving evidence that "ya3bud" is translated into "to worship". As I already mentioned, were you asking for a translation, I wouldn't have bothered replying to you. I understood that you wanted the meaning. Well, you get the translation from Hanz Wehr (no need to search the web) and the meaning from lisaanul 3araab. Consult it and forget what I said.
Translations reflect what the target language has with regard to the source word, but it is not necessarily the exact, or even the correct meaning. You were not asking for translation, but for meaning and understanding. I am not forcing anything on you or anybody here. I use Hans Wehr if I want to translate, but would definitely not use it to understand the qur'aan.
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Peace be upon you,
Yes, I also hold the understanding that there is a specific action to be done regarding "salaat". I do not agree with the traditional bowing down on the ground, but I understand salaat as meditating in order to reprogram your spirit(nafs), the part of your being that carries out automatically your thoughts. Therefore one must be STILL, not moving. Interestingly enough, the goal of life is to be at PEACE in the face of any situation. The Hindus call this NIRVANA , meaning not-moving.
Salams,
I would agree that aqimusalaat is an order to uphold and maintain our spirituality and link to Allah
and it is done via zikr...regards,
Khurram Chaudhry
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Peace be upon you Andy,
Just to clarify, I am not debating that salaat does not have a physical aspect to it, I am only saying that the traditional bowing and getting on the ground is not the physical part of it. Even with meditation, one must breathe in a slow rythmic manner, etc.
A lot of times we the discussion against the traditional salaat turns into "non physical", which is not really the argument. Just wanted to clarify that.
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Peace be upon you Al Khidr,
As Soon as you release your non-Islaamic article, twisting the clear meaning of Al Qur'aan, let me know so that I can analyze it.
Why would I bother myself with your arrogance and emotionality? No Thanks.
Peace to you.
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Peace idolfree1,
Peace be upon you Andy,
Just to clarify, I am not debating that salaat does not have a physical aspect to it, I am only saying that the traditional bowing and getting on the ground is not the physical part of it. Even with meditation, one must breathe in a slow rythmic manner, etc.
A lot of times we the discussion against the traditional salaat turns into "non physical", which is not really the argument. Just wanted to clarify that.
Thanks for the clarification. I would like to hear your understanding pertaining to the physical aspect of salat. Also the programming of nafs, it sounds interesting to me.
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Peace be upon you Andy,
Thanks for the clarification. I would like to hear your understanding pertaining to the physical aspect of salat. Also the programming of nafs, it sounds interesting to me.
I am glad that you are interested in hearing more about my position, I am working on an article that is taking me longer than expected, but once it is done I will put it here for all to view and debate.
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Salaam idolfree
You have said
"I am only saying that the traditional bowing and getting on the ground is not the physical part of it."
You still reject the main physical position of Salaat which is decreed by Allah.
It is true that your mind and spirit has to be intune when you perform Salaat. The position of prostration is one of the most important aspects of Salaat. Prostrating with your head to the ground before Allah with all sincerity is one of the humblest position one can be in before their Sustainer (Allah). We can see physical evidence of prostration as part of Salaat in Al Qur'aan and you will turn around and reject that and write it off as though its some aspect of traditional Islaam. Prostrating and the observance of Salaat goes all the way back to ancient times, thus, it did not begin with the traditional Muslims who call themselves Sunni & Shi'ite. This prescribed form of worship (Salaat) was decreed from the Source of all that exist, which is Allah. So Salaat and all its positions and the utterences we say and the decreed times or specific times we have to observe it is all from Allah and no traditionalist.
Salaam
Peace be upon you Andy,
Just to clarify, I am not debating that salaat does not have a physical aspect to it, I am only saying that the traditional bowing and getting on the ground is not the physical part of it. Even with meditation, one must breathe in a slow rythmic manner, etc.
A lot of times we the discussion against the traditional salaat turns into "non physical", which is not really the argument. Just wanted to clarify that.
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The word Allah is incapable of translation. It is not a common noun meaning a god or even God. It is a proper noun par excellence.
You just translated the untranslatable.???
The word connotes all the attributes of perfection and beauty in their infinitude, and denotes none but the One True and Unique God, the Absolute, Supreme, Perfect, Tender, Mighty, Gracious, Benign and Compassionate.
Holy Sh**!!! -* (http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzHlMs2rSIM)
The English word God, which is ?the common Teutonic word for a personal object of religious worship applied to all superhuman beings of heathen mythologies who exercise power over nature and man (EBr. X. p. 460), and which primarily meant only ?what is invoked? and ?what is worshipped by sacrifice? (SOED. I. p. 80, is hardly an approximate substitute.
The Arabic word illah or Allah applies to the same English connotation of a god or God, both denoting common and proper nouns. On the same lines I believe, allat or Allat is a goddess or Goddess (please correct me if I'm wrong). Although, it seems that we do have gender forms, I have not encountered the plural form of illah or allat in Arabic, as in gods or goddesses. Perhaps who knows that there does exist the Arabic plural form of illah or simply the lack thereof. I won't be suprised if all other languages carry both gender and plural forms of their deities.
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Qur?aan 5319
'Afara'aytumu Al-Lta Wa Al-`Uzz?
Have you considered Lat and UzzahRead Qur?aan 5319-23 and you will see that those are fabricated names created by the hands of men, which Allah never authorized.
?These are but names that you made up, you and your forefathers. Allah never authorized such a blasphemy. They follow conjecture, and personal desire, when the true guidance has come to them herein from their Lord.? - (5323)
Salaam Danish
You have said
?On the same lines I believe, allat or Allat is a goddess or Goddess (please correct me if I'm wrong?
I would love to have the honor to correct your misguided Christian self. When you mention the word ?allat? I believe you were referring to Qur?aan 5319. First of all that word there is pronounced in Arabic as ?Lat? not ?Allat?, the ?alif? in front of ?Lat? is silent when you recite it in Arabic-Tajwiyd beginners course 101. This right here sounds like your typical, misguided Christian argument. It is sad to say that your so-called pagan Christian authorities have lied and also brain washed you over the years. The name ?Lat? or as you want to pronounce it as ?Allat? does not predate the original name of the Creator ?Allah?, in other words Danish ?Allah?, the original name was here long long long long before the man-made concoction and manipulation of the Arabic word in your quote up above. The name Allah goes all the way back to the ancient Aramaic/Sytretic Arabic scriptures and this was long before the Qur?aan was revealed; this long before Muhammad was born. Danish how on earth can you take a Johnny-come-lately name to derive a feminine of Allah. It does not work that way. Every body knows that man has invented names, concocted names throughout history and example of this is ?GOD? & ?JEHOVAH?, just to name a few. Arabic was a dominant language during ancient times and yes men also have concocted/invented names of the Creator Allah in Arabic which has nothing to do with the original Arabic word ?Allah?. Danish you cannot use some term invented (after the name ALLAH) by the hands of men and apply that as some governing force of GRAMMAR over the original Arabic word ?ALLAH? again which predates or came before ?Lat or Allat as you say? to derive a feminine.
You have failed in your attempted to derive a feminine of Allah and you have not produced any evidence from Al Qur?aan to derive a plural of Allah, a masculine of Allah and this is a CHALLENGE to you!! This is what Allah tells us Muslim to say to you Christians
Qur?aan 2111
They said, ?No one will enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian!? Such is their wishful thinking. Say, ?Show us your proof, if you are truthful.?So Danish (the Christian) Produce your proof if you are truthful!!
Below is another one of your fallacies
?The Arabic word illah or Allah applies to the same English connotation of a god or God, both denoting common and proper nouns.?
This is not true, this is only your wishful thinking. We all know how the term ?GOD? can be and has been tampered with, diluted and altered and the GRAMMAR that governs the English language reinforces the fact that term ?GOD? is inferior in all respects to the original and pure language of Arabic. That bast_ _ _ language ENGLISH and its composition is not synonymous with the Arabic composition which goes back to ancient times. Arabic is original, English is made up of several languages and came into existence in recent times in terms of history if you know what I mean.
In English ?GOD? can be made a feminine, example GODDESS
In English ?GOD? can be made a plural, example GODS
In English you can change the letter ?g? into a capital or a small case
In English the term ?GOD? itself can be used in a masculine sense, it can be used for human beings, mythical gods, idols, just to name a few.
This cannot be done to the original name ALLAH, which all of the Prophets used. Danish for all we know ?GOD? may be an acronym for ?GOOD ORDERLY CONDUCT?. If you reverse the name you can spell ?DOG?. You need to research the history of this term ?GOD? to comprehend the greek pagan, atheistic origins and then you will see for yourself that such term could not be applied or used as a substitute for the original and proper name of the Creator ALLAH. There is no scripture in existence that even uses the word ?GOD?, the Prophets that walked the earth never heard of that term.
http//www.freewebs.com/suprememathematics/allah.htm
Salaam
The word Allah is incapable of translation. It is not a common noun meaning a god or even God. It is a proper noun par excellence.
You just translated the untranslatable.???
The word connotes all the attributes of perfection and beauty in their infinitude, and denotes none but the One True and Unique God, the Absolute, Supreme, Perfect, Tender, Mighty, Gracious, Benign and Compassionate.
Holy Sh**!!! -* (http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzHlMs2rSIM)
The English word God, which is ?the common Teutonic word for a personal object of religious worship applied to all superhuman beings of heathen mythologies who exercise power over nature and man (EBr. X. p. 460), and which primarily meant only ?what is invoked? and ?what is worshipped by sacrifice? (SOED. I. p. 80, is hardly an approximate substitute.
The Arabic word illah or Allah applies to the same English connotation of a god or God, both denoting common and proper nouns. On the same lines I believe, allat or Allat is a goddess or Goddess (please correct me if I'm wrong). Although, it seems that we do have gender forms, I have not encountered the plural form of illah or allat in Arabic, as in gods or goddesses. Perhaps who knows that there does exist the Arabic plural form of illah or simply the lack thereof. I won't be suprised if all other languages carry both gender and plural forms of their deities.
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Easy danish. The plural of ilah is alihatun...This word is used in the quran,as is ilahayn which means two gods...
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Peace be upon you Al Khidr,
You still reject the main physical position of Salaat which is decreed by Allah.
There is no physical position given as instruction excpet for stillness, unless you are in danger and must "salaat" while walking or riding. I'd like to see how you prostrate on your forhead while riding a horse or a Volvo
It is true that your mind and spirit has to be intune when you perform Salaat.
Salaat is the process of 'getting in tune' so you can reprogram your spirit.
The position of prostration is one of the most important aspects of Salaat.
Yes, prostration of your will to God's will.
Prostrating with your head to the ground before Allah with all sincerity is one of the humblest position one can be in before their Sustainer (Allah).
"before" Allah? Where is Allah? Please point to "Him". Also realize that if you take the God to be physical then while you are "bowing before" God, you are also sticking your butt in "His" face at the other end.
We can see physical evidence of prostration as part of Salaat in Al Qur'aan and you will turn around and reject that and write it off as though its some aspect of traditional Islaam.
I write off the traditional teachings because they are false. When one reflects on the signs as we are told to do, one gains insight and wisdom and will realize that one cannot physically prostrate to the UNSEEN. Especially when many verses are illogical if you make prostration physical.
Prostrating and the observance of Salaat goes all the way back to ancient times, thus, it did not begin with the traditional Muslims who call themselves Sunni & Shi'ite.
I dont care how far one might trace it back, its still not what is being shown to us. However, if you choose to get on the ground to meditate and reprogram your spirit, thats fine, but realize that the seated posture is better to align your respiratory system and that you are not bowing before the God who is not an object, but instead bowing to the SUN or MOON(physical objects representing day and night).
This prescribed form of worship (Salaat) was decreed from the Source of all that exist, which is Allah. So Salaat and all its positions and the utterences we say and the decreed times or specific times we have to observe it is all from Allah and no traditionalist.
You go right ahead. I am seeking the correct guidance. I will not stop you from what you want to do.
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Peace be upon you Andy,
Well ...I am here not to debate ...I am here to listen to all views and follow the best of it.
Agreed. That is what we must do. But in the process of listening to all views, we must bounce them off each other to weed out the truth from falsehood. Thats what hajj(debate) is all about.
There is a verse in this reading(quran) that says "there shall be no arguing(jidala) in the debate(hajja)".
So dont confuse the two concepts, arguing and debating We are here to debate so that we can rule out the different views and be able to follow the BEST of it, how wil we know which is BEST without putting it to the test? But when it goes too far and we argue, then we must back away and restore peace. Do you agree with that?