A topic for those who study Classical Arabic

nadeem

Hi there,

I'm studyig Classical Arabic, and I'm opening this thread to ask about help in various aspects of the Classical Arabic language.

The book I'm using,the one recommended by Brother Wakas, is called "Arabic through the quran" by Alan Jones. If someone has a copy of it, or has the knowledge it shares, I humbly ask for your assistance and help learning this language.

First out, is declension, inflection and cases in the Classical Arabic. I don't get it.

I generally don't get it, but to be precise, I don't understand this on page 23, under Declension of NounsType One -> "Partially Inflected" - using the word Makkata as example.

"The crucial difference between the fully and partially inflected form here (and in type 2) is in the genitive. This can be clearly seen when an adjective is added, al-mukarramatum, commonly used to describe Mecca in later times. The adjective has to have the definite article because makkatu, as a proper noun, is definite."

I don't see any difference in the genitive. All forms (nominative, genitive, accusative) have the definite article Lam wowelled by either O, A and A, respectively.

What's the difference?

Links and reading material is highly appreciated, as are examples. -)

There is more which I don't understand, but I'll spare that for next time.

Nadeem

Samia

Salaam

I do not have this book, but I might be of help (for now).

Do not confuse yourself with the mention of the definite article here, it has little effect on the declenching of a noun, but not in this example. The writer should have written it in this way

"The crucial difference between the fully and partially inflected form here (and in type 2) is in the genitive. This can be clearly seen when an adjective is added, for example al-mukarramatu, commonly used to describe Mecca in later times.

PS{The adjective has to have the definite article because makkatu, as a proper noun, is definite.", and because the adjective should conform to the definitness or indefinitness of the noun it is describing.}

Examples of the three cases of Makka (two cases because it is partially inflected, i.e a diptode) in opposition to the 3 cases of its adjective (fully inflected, not a diptode)

nominative makkatu almukarramatu
accusative I visited makkata almukarramata
genetive I went to (ila) makkata almukarramati

I hope I did not add to your confusion!!

nadeem

Hei Samia,

Thanks so much for your input -)

The thing is, I've never heard of 'Declension' before, neither in norwegian nor in english. Perhaps that's why I'm having some trouble with it.

nominative makkatu almukarramatu
accusative I visited makkata almukarramata
genetive I went to (ila) makkata almukarramati

Why is 'went to' a genitive, while 'visited' an accusative?
And what does 'ila' mean?

I tried searching google for diptode, arabic inflection, arabic case, arabic declension and so on, but found nothing. Do you know any sites out there about this subject?

Once, thanks a lot.

Nadeem

decepticus

Hei Samia,

Thanks so much for your input -)

The thing is, I've never heard of 'Declension' before, neither in norwegian nor in english. Perhaps that's why I'm having some trouble with it.

nominative makkatu almukarramatu
accusative I visited makkata almukarramata
genetive I went to (ila) makkata almukarramati

Why is 'went to' a genitive, while 'visited' an accusative?
And what does 'ila' mean?

I tried searching google for diptode, arabic inflection, arabic case, arabic declension and so on, but found nothing. Do you know any sites out there about this subject?

Once, thanks a lot.

Nadeem

In fact, declension exists in many languages such as german, russian, latin, arabic and even old english!
Hopefully, you don't have much "cases" in arabic (we have 6 in Russian!) Here is a very rapid explanation of declension and the need of it

First, if the noun is the subject of the sentence, it is in the nominative form
If it is a direct object, it takes the accusative terminaison
Last, if there is an idea of possession (like in english the " 's of "my friend's house" or direction, it the genitive that is needed (but this last case is the most complicated)

Then, the form of the noun (or adjective) marks its grammatical function.

Try these links
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_grammar
http//forum.wordreference.com/archive/index.php/f-41.html
http//en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Arabic
http//www.xrce.xerox.com/competencies/content-analysis/arabic/

nadeem

Hi Decepticus,

Wonderful! Thanks so much for the reading material and information.

I need to let this sink in and ferment in my brain -)

Nadeem

Samia

Declension is, in general, the case ending, as in alkitaabu, alkitaaba, alkitaabi. It varies according to the position of the word in the sentence. Decepticus explained this well. I add to the genetive, a noun that falls after a preposition, as in (I went to Makkata), i.e falls as an indirect object. This is the difference between visited and went to. "ila" is the Arabic equivalent to the preposition "to"; although Arabic prepositions and verbs that take an indirect object are not necessarily the same as in English. For example, the sentence "to bring up a subject", if translated into Arabic, will not have a preposition in it.

nadeem

Hi Sis Samia,

Thanks for the clarification, it makes sense. Since all words end up in genitive forms after a preposition, the first phrase is not in genitive, while the second has preposition so the word becomes genitive. Correct?

I've been doing some homework, if someone could check and see if I've understood it, I'd be very grateful. The book doesn't provide keys to the declension/inflection(the difference?) tasks.

I've uploaded the work as a pdf file, attached to this post
http//reflekterselv.com/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,36/topic,707.msg15106#msg15106

I apologize for the late response. I hope it isn't taken a sign of lacking interest or missing devotion, rather just lacking time.

Nadeem

Samia

Salaam Nadeem

I read the excercise. There are some mistakes, but not your fault. It concerns words with aother rules!

(no alif at the end). This one is a general rule The "case ending" is not always a sign above or below the last letter. It could be changing a letter like in the masculine sound plural ( - - . - - &#1606 nominative; accusative and genetive.
is what we call "diptode" a noun that does not show the genetive sign but the fat7a when it is in the genetive. These nouns do not carry the nunnation either. They are recognized by their pattern mainly (there are other fewer reasons). The pattern here is . So, any noun with this pattern is a diptode - - (nominative; accusative; genetive; and no nunnation (We can't say or ).
is a sound feminine plural. This plural does not take the accusative sign or nunnation. So, we do not say but for both the accusative and the genetive.
(black). Like most names of colour, as well as the comparative pattern or any noun of the pattern ,which is also a verbal pattern),these are also diptodes (see above no. 2).

Apart from that, well done!

nadeem

Hi Samia,
Praised be to god, your post is very helpful to this student and many others. Thanks! bravo

I have a hard time reading the unvowelled arabic script, and on the computer it becomes so small. If you could provide the transliteration, I would be very grateful. )

(no alif at the end). This one is a general rule The "case ending" is not always a sign above or below the last letter. It could be changing a letter like in the masculine sound plural ( - - . - - &#1606 nominative; accusative and genetive.

OK. Can't believe I got that one wrong though, Dhalimun is used as an example in the book in the way you say. Perhaps I was thinking of the rule that says that most nouns and adjectives get an Alif on the end on their indefinite accusative forms. What I understand from your post is that masculine and perhaps even feminine sound plurals are excempted from this rule. True?

What does it say here - -
I'm making a wild guess and reading it madris?na - madris?na - madris?na, and think of it meaning those who attend the madrasa (students?), and from the root Dal-ra-siin and 'ma' being a preposition. I'm wrong, am I not?

Let's do the word Mujrim?na.
Nom Mujrim?na
Acc Mujrim?na (No alif)
Gen Mujrim?na (No alif)

And the female sound plural '?y?tun'.
Nom ?y?tun
Acc ?y?tin
Gen ?y?tin

Correct?

(The hat ^ meaning a long vowel)

is what we call "diptode" a noun that does not show the genetive sign but the fat7a when it is in the genetive. These nouns do not carry the nunnation either. They are recognized by their pattern mainly (there are other fewer reasons). The pattern here is . So, any noun with this pattern is a diptode - - (nominative; accusative; genetive; and no nunnation (We can't say or ).

What is the pattern in ?

I know in Kit?bun the pattern is i-?-u
And in Kutubun the pattern is u-u-u.

So that we can swap the root letters Kaf-ta-ba with any other root letters.True?

If I had to say something, I'd say the pattern in is a-?-i-u
True?

Does Kat?ibu mean anything btw? (using the last mentioned pattern.)

In my book, there is only one category of words which do not change for case nor has nunnation. These are those ending with an Alif after fatha, or an ya after fatha. Such as Bushr? (with ya), and Duny? (with alif).

is a sound feminine plural. This plural does not take the accusative sign or nunnation. So, we do not say but for both the accusative and the genetive.

No nunnation? But you use , doesn't this have nunnation, the 'n' sound at the end?
Or do you by nunnation mean that 'n' sound is fixed and doesn't change from say 'in' to 'un', or from 'un' to 'an' nor from 'an' to 'in' ?

(black). Like most names of colour, as well as the comparative pattern or any noun of the pattern ,which is also a verbal pattern),these are also diptodes (see above no. 2).

What does 'Comparative pattern' and 'verbal pattern' mean?

I don't know what it says here
Maybe Af-AAlu ? That makes most resemblance to aswadu. I can't find any resemblance between aswadu and the pattern in , so I don't know how to recognize it as a diptode.

I searched google for 'diptode' and got as result the page 'Sex XXX' (link to google, safe). Where did you say you studied arabic? Just kidding -) peace

Apart from that, well done!

Thanks, and god bless you for using some of your own time to help me out.

Is there any good arabic-grammar book in english which you could recommend?

Forgive me for writing mostly in transliterated arabic, I don't know how to write arabic on the computer. The little arabic I have was copied from your posts.

Nadeem

Samia

Salaam Nadeem

I am sorry for not transliterating, nor fully vocalizing my Arabic words.
Let's reply to your querries.

What I understand from your post is that masculine and perhaps even feminine sound plurals are excempted from this rule. True?

Right, for different reasons, though.

What does it say here - -
I'm making a wild guess and reading it madris?na - madris?na - madris?na, and think of it meaning those who attend the madrasa (students?), and from the root Dal-ra-siin and 'ma' being a preposition. I'm wrong, am I notWhat does it say here - -
I'm making a wild guess and reading it madris?na - madris?na - madris?na, and think of it meaning those who attend the madrasa (students?), and from the root Dal-ra-siin and 'ma' being a preposition. I'm wrong, am I not?

I wont say wrong, but excellent attempt. mudarrisuun (with a shadda on the R..I cant find the shadda on my computer) teachers.

Let's do the word Mujrim?na.
Nom Mujrim?na
Acc Mujrim?na (No alif)
Gen Mujrim?na (No alif)

And the female sound plural '?y?tun'.
Nom ?y?tun
Acc ?y?tin
Gen ?y?tin

Correct?

Excellent!!

If I had to say something, I'd say the pattern in is a-?-i-u
True?

Absolutely.

Does Kat?ibu mean anything btw? (using the last mentioned pattern.)

Yes. It is the plural of kateeba which means regiment, squadron (army).

In my book, there is only one category of words which do not change for case nor has nunnation. These are those ending with an Alif after fatha, or an ya after fatha. Such as Bushr? (with ya), and Duny? (with alif).

These words do not show case because it is impossible to put a case on an alif.

Quote
3. is a sound feminine plural. This plural does not take the accusative sign or nunnation. So, we do not say but for both the accusative and the genetive.

I mean accusative nunnation, not nunnation per se. I explained in the "" for the accusative and not " ".

What does 'Comparative pattern' and 'verbal pattern' mean?

I don't know what it says here
Maybe Af-AAlu ? That makes most resemblance to aswadu. I can't find any resemblance between aswadu and the pattern in , so I don't know how to recognize it as a diptode.

The comparative pattern as in "akbar greater"; verbal pattern is a pattern of a verb, as in "lam aqra' I didn't read".

There is no resemblance between the two patterns. What I want to say is that a class of diptodes are plurals which follow a certain pattern. These are two of the patterns of diptodes. (There is also a third pattern of plurals which is the mafa3iil pattern, as in mafatee7 keys).

I searched google for 'diptode' and got as result the page 'Sex XXX' (link to google, safe). Where did you say you studied arabic? Just kidding -)

rotfl rotfl

nadeem

Hi Samia,

Thanks again for explaining -)

The reason nothing turns up for diptode is because it is actually diptote. I bought the book by Wheeler M. Thackston and he too explains it quite well.

I know think it is wrong that you should have to vocalize your arabic just for me when true arabic is written without, so I'm glad that Mr. Thackston teaches arabic non-vocalized. So now I can read certain words unvocalized by looking at the composition of the sentence and recognizing the role of the word in the sentence and vocalizing accordingly. A bit slow, but better than nothing.

Anyways, I was thinking about arabic and its pattern system, and I've come up with a theory which I haven't gotten confirmed yet.

It all started with my own name Nadeem. How does one pronounce it? I've found out that if it is pronounced N?dim, then it means "drinker"(idiom for drinking companion), however if the long-wowel is shifted to the i "Nad?m", then it becomes "Friend".

The first describes what i do or how i do it, whilst the second describes what or how I am. Is this true for ALL with words with this pattern?

Let's take some examples

H?kim => 'Judges' => To judge => an act a person does
Hak?m => 'Wise' => To be wise => a state a person is in

Q?bilun => 'One who accepts' => To accept => an act a person does
Qab?lun => 'Face to face' => To be face to face with => a state a person is in

R?ziq => 'Provider' => To provide => an act a person does
Razz?q => 'great provider' => To be great provider => a state a person is in

The rule seems to be that if the long vowel is at the first vowel of the word, then the word describes the persons action-wise, if the longvowel is the second and the last, then the word describes a person state-wise.

Am I correct?

Nadeem

maxq

To add to Nadeem's list...

Raheem => 'Beneficient/Merciful' => an act a someone does
Rahmaan => 'Source of Benefit/Mercy' => a state someone is in

Is this correct too?

nadeem

Hi Brother Maxq,

Thanks for the suggestions, but I think 'Raheem' also describes a state. One cannot say "To Beneficient/Merciful" as with verbs, rather one says "To be Beneficient/Merciful" as with adjectives.

But again, thanks, the pattern is further confirmed Both words are descriptive of the state and both have long second vowels.

Here are some more

First vowel long, second vowel short
Kaafir = Rejector = An act
Kaatib = Writer = An act
Qaatil = Killer = An act
Dzaalim = Wrongdoer = an act
Maalik = Owner = an act (to own)

First vowel short, second vowel long
Hisaan = Beautiful ones = A state
Kariim = Noble, generous = A state
Kabiir = Big, old = A state
Aziim = Great = a state
Saliim = safe, secure = state

Nadeem

abrar

Dear nadeem,

I have studied my three years of primary school in saudi arabia, makkah. I know fair not fluent classical arabic and i am in the process of constantly learning it. I have found a very good website about classical arabic of quran on the internet. Go to the links below
http//www.emuslim.com
http//www.emuslim.com/Quran/Dictionary_English.asp
They are attempting to explain the methodology of quran's translation techniques into any language. They are making scholarly research on arabic of quranic terms.
I hope that you will find this website helpful.

Peace

nadeem

Peace everyone,

My book says that the above means "For the believers of the earth". However, I don't see why this couldn't also mean "For the two believers of the earth".

Can someone explain?

Nadeem

nerspi

peace

i have a question for those who study classical arabic

4112 And He it is Who ordained that they become seven Heavens in two stages and assigned to each heaven its function. And We decorated the sky of the world with shining lamps, and made them secure (that they clash not in their orbits 419). That is the Design of the Almighty, the Knower.

4112 Thus, He then made them into seven universes in two days, and He inspired to every universe its affair. And We adorned the lowest universe with lamps, and for protection. Such is the design of the Noble, the Knowledgeable

4112
So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge.

which one is it? sky of the world? lowest universe? or lower heaven?

Samia

Hi Samia,

The first describes what i do or how i do it, whilst the second describes what or how I am. Is this true for ALL with words with this pattern?

Let's take some examples

H?kim => 'Judges' => To judge => an act a person does
Hak?m => 'Wise' => To be wise => a state a person is in

Q?bilun => 'One who accepts' => To accept => an act a person does
Qab?lun => 'Face to face' => To be face to face with => a state a person is in

R?ziq => 'Provider' => To provide => an act a person does
Razz?q => 'great provider' => To be great provider => a state a person is in

The rule seems to be that if the long vowel is at the first vowel of the word, then the word describes the persons action-wise, if the longvowel is the second and the last, then the word describes a person state-wise.

Am I correct?

Nadeem

Sorry for the belated reply!

Yes, you are. We speak of "patterns" faa3il (action-wise, doer) and fa3eei (state-wise, adjective)

To add to Nadeem's list...

Raheem => 'Beneficient/Merciful' => an act a someone does
Rahmaan => 'Source of Benefit/Mercy' => a state someone is in

Is this correct too?

They do not follow the pattern.

raheem fa3eel state-wise
rahmaan fa3laan another pattern for state-wise (example farhaan happy, 3atshaan thirsty) This pattern is more intense than fa3eel.

Peace everyone,

?????? ?????

My book says that the above means "For the believers of the earth". However, I don't see why this couldn't also mean "For the two believers of the earth".

Can someone explain?

Nadeem

It could also mean "for the two...." if we diregard the vocalization "tashkeel". mu'mineen/mu'minee plural; mu'minayn/mu'minay dual.

peace

i have a question for those who study classical arabic

4112 And He it is Who ordained that they become seven Heavens in two stages and assigned to each heaven its function. And We decorated the sky of the world with shining lamps, and made them secure (that they clash not in their orbits 419). That is the Design of the Almighty, the Knower.

4112 Thus, He then made them into seven universes in two days, and He inspired to every universe its affair. And We adorned the lowest universe with lamps, and for protection. Such is the design of the Noble, the Knowledgeable

4112
So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge.

which one is it? sky of the world? lowest universe? or lower heaven?

I would say the lowest/nearest heaven/sky/

nadeem

Peace Sister Samia,

Sorry for the belated reply!

Oh, not to worry. Quite frankly I'm grateful that you even bother and that you find it worthy to help me out. You rock! bravo

Yes, you are. We speak of "patterns" faa3il (action-wise, doer) and fa3eei (state-wise, adjective)

Cool. Almost feel like a grammarian -)

It could also mean "for the two...." if we diregard the vocalization "tashkeel". mu'mineen/mu'minee plural; mu'minayn/mu'minay dual.

Let me see if I understood you correctly. Without a kasra or fatha on the , we can't say for sure if its dual or plural?

Feel free to use this arabic-typing tool if needed http//www.indiana.edu/~arabic/typing_arabic.htm

Nadeem

Samia

Thanks for the kind words!

I do not mean case ending, but inter-word vocalization.

I am using a mac. Not Arabic enabled because it has office 2004. The link you sent does not have short vowels, but great, thanks!!

I will explain where, and what short vowels in both words

mu'minain/m'uminai dual (fatha on the first nuun and sukuun on the ya)
mu'mineen/mu'minee plural (kasra under the first nuun and the ya)

There is no difference consonant-wise

decepticus

I am using a mac. Not Arabic enabled because it has office 2004. The link you sent does not have short vowels, but great, thanks!!

No more excuses with Neooffice! I am using it with my ibBook for arabic wonderful!

Mac OS X is natively arabic enabled (textedit is a good alternative but Neooffice is so powerful!) And forget about Office 2004

You can download it here http//www.neooffice.org/neojava/en/

To write arabic, just change the flag in the right corner to the green crescent, choose an arabic font (I like Baghdad and Decotype Naskh) , change the direction of the text and you can go on!