Using the word "muslim" in an english conversation
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I am still having a difficult time trying to figure out the words that I feel comfortable with-- as I understand it, the Quran says there is only ONE religion and that we should not divide it into sects... as it has in fact been done (Christians, Jews, Buddists, Hindus, etc - and Yahoo's database distuinguishes between about 140 different denominations of Christianity!).
Using the word "muslim" in an english conversation to me is divisive and to me associates a LABEL with those who claim to follow the Quran and/or the teachings of Muhammad. Personally, I find that the VAST MAJORITY of people who call themselves "muslims" are "doing it wrong" - as well as the vast majority of Christians and Jews. I find that MOST do not follow their own scriptures - which I understand is a message that the Quran gives us - that MOST do not follow their own scriptures.
I understand that the word "muslim" means a person who submits their will to God. And there are many Christians and Jews that I know who meet what I understand are the guidelines stated in the Quran as a BELIEVER - one who will be rewarded by God and does not need to fear God (262). And there are MANY MANY people who call themselves "muslims" who I believe are NOT believers according to the Quran. To me the most important distinction within the Quran is WHETHER OR NOT one is a believer. And to me the believer is one who submits their will to God, regardless of what one calls themselves (262).
So when people ask me what my religion is (in an english conversation), I do not say that I am "muslim". That makes about as much sense to me as saying "Allah" instead of "God" in an english conversation. I tell people that I am one who tries hard to submit my will to God.
Any thoughts on this?
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Peace to all,
Nice to meet you Sabboushi, I went through some of the same things you seem to be about what words and terms to use while talking to others in english. I myself say im Muslim and it doesnt really matter what negative connotations this may bring up in other peoples minds, thats not for me to worry about. I agree that there are many who stray from the one true religion whatever sect they call themselves, but this does not mean that if we call ourselves muslims we are dividing into a sect.
You stated that you do not believe that many many people who call themselves muslims are not actually believers. While it may be true that shouldnt be what we concern ourselves about, let them be judged according to what they do and believe. Remember, every english word came from some other language originally, so Muslim is a proper term to use even in english,, or to say you believe in God and not Allah is fine if you want but even the word God came from an old german norse God, since the Quran wasnt revealed in the germanic language its ok for us to use Allah, but I dont think it really matters, just use what you feel truelu expresses how you feel and believe. Also, 2112 says that a believer is one who submits his whole self to God, not just to believe, I think there is a distinction between a believer and a submitter, even satan believes in God he just refuses to submit to him.
By the way, i listened to some of your piano playing and you sound pretty good brother, whats your story.
Kurt
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Peace SAbboushi,
Cool name! It reminds of this awesome Brazilian-Japanese fusion restaurant in nyc called Sushi-Samba.
Anyway, about 2 years back I was working in kitchen design and I was chatting with a co-worker during a break. She asked me if I was excited about Christmas. I told her, "yeah, I like the holidays, but I don't celebrate Christmas." This of course piqued her interest and she asked what religion I was. Now I had no premeditated answer. In the past, I would always answer "muslim". But this time things were different. Those words tried to come out but they didn't feel right. So, I said, "I don't practice any religion". She asked if I was an atheist. I said, "No. I believe in God, but I don't believe in religion." And she left it at that.That conversation stuck with me because I wasn't quite sure if I was being true to myself. But as I analyzed and re-analyzed, I realized that I was being true. I really don't practice any religion. Sure, I participate in some of the cultural baggage that's attached to islam - such as eid and the method of burying our dead, etc. But on a day to day basis, I have no religious routine.
In my mind, what I've learned from the quran has always been a reminder, and never something "new" regarding it's spiritual developmental concepts. I read something for the first time and it clicks because the wisdom is intuited already in a more general sense. The quran helps me refine what's already there.
But I've also gotten that sort of reminder from observing nature, or people, or myself, or reading other books - fiction as well. The reminders are everywhere.
So, in summary, I do not call myself muslim. And I would not call myself "peaceful" because that is an adjective that should speak for itself. Nor do I call myself a "submitter" because it has a sense of servitude to it. I'm simply a believer in God. And remembrance of God should lead one to act peacefully, and recognition of God's majesty should lead one to submit their will to the greater good. So, believer sums it up for me.
Peace,
Tay -
O0Please bear with me on this.....but I think that using the word "muslim" is not wrong and it's not divisive on this forum. Using the word muslim says that person practices Islam. And even though Islam means surrender, and that anyone who surrenders to God is considered a muslim, other religions do not adhere to that belief and would be offended if they were told this. I think we have to be careful in what we say because I sense arrogance with this train of thought. I have heard muslims say, "gee aren't I lucky to be muslim" as if Christians etc aren't feeling lucky also? The thought should be from a muslim, "I want more people to believe in the Most High. We can get caught up in semantics and language use and roots but the reality is there are many ways to address God, and what to call him, and what to call his followers. To me as long as they aren't pagans they are fine in my book. Islam has its roots in Judaism and Zorasterism, and Christianity, so therefore, all are simply followers of those who forged the way and braved the crowds of unbelievers to say "There is one God." I can say that I am simply a "believer" and that would be enough, do I need to also say that I believe in the Quran to give my belief substance? I don't think so. I can say I believe in all the holy books and prophets and I'd have more people willing to listen to me, and to discuss important things. When we (people) began to back into corners it begins to look cultish and that's scary. But as a humerous aside I think there is nothing funnier than the person no matter the religious persuation who does nothing but quote their "book" in response to any and all conversational matter. But perhaps I am straying from the topic as well,
astafurallah...................... sun -
Salam,
I think there is a distinction between a believer and a submitter, even satan believes in God he just refuses to submit to him.
Nicely put! Including your whole post. I agree.
Tay,
I've heard the same as you stated in your post from folks who seem to have problems with words. They'll even say things like I don't believe in "god" for say but in a "higher power" etc. It seems to be an escapist mentality. Same as "I like the holiday" but "I don't celebrate it." Please let me ask you and please be honest, have you ever given and/or recieved a christmas gift?
peace.
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Peace phoenix, M, all,
Phoenix, thanks for the kindness.
M, you stated
I've heard the same as you stated in your post from folks who seem to have problems with words. They'll even say things like I don't believe in "god" for say but in a "higher power" etc. It seems to be an escapist mentality. Same as "I like the holiday" but "I don't celebrate it."
Thanks for sharing that interesting coincidence.
Please let me ask you and please be honest, have you ever given and/or recieved a christmas gift?
I've participated in office grab-bags, aka, secret santa and stuff. I think I may have gotten a few gifts in elementary school. And I'll occasionally get an out of the blue Christmas card. But that's about it. how about you?
Peace,
Tay -
Peace,
Saboushi,
You are more than right. There is even an etymologic reason behind this. The word Muslim has COME to mean many things. In the beginning it only means 'submissive' and other concepts that play off of peace and well being (by form it can mean to salute, to save/safe, to come to be saved, to come into peace/well-being, to submit, to pay early or even to quit something. But none of the original meanings have anything to do with God. The Shaf?e interpretation and the one that many Muslims here LIKE is 'submissive to God' but that is an interpretation and not a definition. Just as Salvation to a trinitarian is acceping Jesus (God bless him) as his lord and savior is the meaning of salvation to them. But these are just interpretations. The Quran meant it just like you said it 'to be submissive to God.' The only reason I call myself a Quranists/Quranite/Quran-alone is because I exclusively follow the teachings of the Quran and the only reason I call myself a Muslim is because it has come to mean one who claims to follow the Quran and the last prophet Muhammad (God bless him). So because I do this i am Muslim, but by default.
So I agree with you a hundred percent. Say you are submisisve to God, I also say pro-God. But you'll come to realize when you tell them that you follow the Quran that they will see you as either Muslim or confused. They kind of have a right to think of you as Muslim but it is good that you call attention to the TEACHINGS of the Quran and its MESSAGE more than than titles which have different personal defintions for so many.
This is why I prefer Quranist and pro-God, for the same reason that you say submissive to God and should continue to say that. We need to de-arabicize the message of the Quran anyway and that it is a start. Say you submit to God and quote the Quran. But the question will come up 'are you Muslim?' And here's the tricky one. I used to say flat out NO, but I do follow the Quran. But I realized that there is a current universal definition of Islam and it has nothing to do with what kind of Muslim you are or that you don't even like that name. Once you mention Muhammad (God bless him) and the Quran, that's it. That's all you need. I wish it would change but maybe one day it will. Until then I say I'm muslim, not because of the Quran but because of a real world defintion.
But I make it clear that I'm a Quranist Muslim, even if others don't get it I repeat it. "I only follow the Quran. Other Muslims follow other books besides the Quran, but I only follow the Quran" However, unfortunately people will still associate everything that has to do with Islam and Islamic history to the Quran. That can only change if we are persistent in distinguishing the Quran from the rest of that mess.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Salam,
Thanks for sharing that interesting coincidence.
It's not a coincidence at all. Your notions are actually very common. Basicly, the coffee shop analogy.
how about you?
Ofcourse! We have good Christian and Jewish friends who we celebrate with. But I wasn't the one who said "I don't celebrate" Tay, it was you. To point out that you do not celebrate is to make a distinction that contradicts your point of making no distinctions by not labeling yourself.
Bro, I pray to God that what you are attempting to say above is about Transendence. Basicly to transend labels. I say attempting to say because what you are accomplishing more is talking about what doesn't feel "right" to you. This is not transendence. It is discomfort! You are talking about your own discomfort. Here is another key in your above post that point to this
Sure, I participate in some of the cultural baggage that's attached to islam - such as eid...
One who transends a thing does not see it as "baggage". Your terminology is to the point as to your discomfort with a thing and not your transendence of it. Two different things all together.
Your discomfort is a negative energy that,in simplistic 2+2 terms, will only help in causing an opposite and equal reaction. So the more you are discomforted by these labels and terms etc. and as in your bro pheonix's state who said he actually has a "problem" with those who call themself 'a muslim', are more helping in division rather than Truely Transending these Labels.
So please, when you say, "I really don't practice any religion", know that you do, even if it's a simple as "Tay's religion that is made up so as to fit his own lifestyle, which he wishes not to name or call anything." But if you are attempting towards Transendence of labels, then by all means Transcend with comfort and celebration of love. peace
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Peace M,
It's not a coincidence at all. Your notions are actually very common. Basicly, the coffee shop analogy.
Cool.
Ofcourse! We have good Christian and Jewish friends who we celebrate with. But I wasn't the one who said "I don't celebrate" Tay, it was you. To point out that you do not celebrate is to make a distinction that contradicts your point of making no distinctions by not labeling yourself.
It's really just stating the facts...nothing deeper. "I don't celebrate Christmas" is a matter of fact with no ill will behind it. The alternative would be to lie. Also, I didn't make any point of not making distinctions so there is no contradiction. My point was to be truthful to myself and others.
Bro, I pray to God that what you are attempting to say above is about Transendence. Basicly to transend labels. I say attempting to say because what you are accomplishing more is talking about what doesn't feel "right" to you. This is not transendence. It is discomfort! You are talking about your own discomfort.
I don't like to tell people I am something that I'm not. That's really all there is to it bro. Labels are a fact of life that don't need to be transcended (risen above) but seen through (level plane), imo. I don't judge someone for celebrating Christmas just as I would hope they don't judge me for not celebrating it. So regarding discomfort, etc, either you're projecting, or guessing - either way, you're wrong. A better way to understand me would be to ask.
One who transends a thing does not see it as "baggage". Your terminology is to the point as to your discomfort with a thing and not your transendence of it. Two different things all together.
I'm not uncomfortable with eid or funeral ceremonies. I actually have no problem with either one. I just recognize that they come attached to the common concept of islam. It's similar to picking up a good friend from the airport who happens to bring with him 10 large suitcases. The suitcases may contain lots of nice clothes and souvenirs, but it's baggage nonetheless.
So please, when you say, "I really don't practice any religion", know that you do, even if it's a simple as "Tay's religion that is made up so as to fit his own lifestyle, which he wishes not to name or call anything." But if you are attempting towards Transendence of labels, then by all means Transcend with comfort and celebration of love.
I appreciate the gesture bro, but religion by definition involves structure and adherence which I do not employ. Nor do I invent anything to fit my lifestyle. It is the other way around. My lifestyle bends around where I currently am in my life.
Peace,
Tay -
Salam,
So regarding discomfort, etc, either you're projecting, or guessing - either way, you're wrong. A better way to understand me would be to ask.
Just going off your own words. You said it didn't feel "right." Whatever makes you feel right, I'm sure you'll go with it then. peace.
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Salam Tay,
Yes. Thanks for understanding that I don't generally go with what feels wrong.
Bro, I wonder sometimes though, from all that you said above including how you don't practic any religion and how you do not have any religious routine etc.. ... well, I pray you are mindful of 4714. Going with what "feels right" is to broad to be Right.
Why are people so concerned about how others see themselves? Doesn't this run contrary to the priciples of religion, espeically Islam which has done away with the mindless rituals of the past?
I agree with you about how others see themselves and about rituals of the past, but there are very good reasons for routines such as daily prayers, charity, fasting etc..
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Peace M,
Bro, I wonder sometimes though, from all that you said above including how you don't practic any religion and how you do not have any religious routine etc.. ... well, I pray you are mindful of 4714. Going with what "feels right" is to broad to be Right.
I think you're confusing "what feels right" with "what feels good". 4714 is warning against blindly following one's desires(what feels good), whereas 1736 is advising using one's senses of sight, hearing, and reason (what feels right).
There are plenty of times when I know the right thing to do but may not like doing it. And vice versa.
Peace,
Tay -
Salam Tay,
No not really. It appears what feels right and good to you are the same thing. Here using your own example of 1736
whereas 1736 is advising using one's senses of sight, hearing, and reason (what feels right).
hmm You must be talking about when you refer to your so called "vibes".?!
Anyway bro, so are you saying it's not your own "desire" to not follow religion and "have no religious routine", or was it a command from God?
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Peace Muhammad,
Your questions are like chocolate covered turds.
Funny thing is, whenever I hand it back to you in the same regard, you complain about insults. ignore
How about you avoid my posts and any reference to me whatsoever, and I'll do the same?Peace,
Tay