Using the word "muslim" in an english conversation
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Yes, and a simple answer would be fine.
Interesting...I tell you I know longer want to have discussions with you, and you want to linger. That speaks volumes.
What volumes? Ah oh, Tay's getting "vibes" again. Bro no, you "asked" and I answered. If you didn't want to give a choice you aught not have asked. ;D
Anyway.. as it's been said before, your ideas seem to be an escapist mentality. Your use of the word "peace" is showing that here. peace
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Peace M,
What volumes? Ah oh, Tay's getting "vibes" again.
Ah oh, Mo's getting condascending again nope
If you didn't want to give a choice you aught not have asked.
It was a rhetorical question.
Anyway.. as it's been said before, your ideas seem to be an escapist mentality.
Seems to be... to you, the self-appointed authority. I think it just seems to be different than your own opinion, thus you must vilify it in order to verify your own. That's quite common actually. But let me save you the trouble of the same old tired insult...it's just a vibe.
Your use of the word "peace" is showing that here.
As is yours - in most of your posts. It's fortunate that you're not deleting your old posts anymore. It will give you a chance in the future to look back and see that every one of our dialogues which digressed did so the moment you chose sarcasm, condascension, and insult as your method of communication. I'm no better, because I let it happen, and added fuel to the fire. Nothing I can do about the past. But moving forward, if you want to discuss anything with me, I would hope you would choose a more peaceful tone. I know that sort of talk just eats you up, but hey, you're free to choose condascension, so I'm free to choose peace, and I'm free to not respond the next time around.
Peace,
Tay -
Ah oh, Mo's getting condascending again nope
Tay, you have and are yet again taking what I say totaly the wrong way. It's not condascending, just trying to lighten up the mood a little bro. Especially after you start flinging "turds". The problem is your so called "vibes". You are getting the wrong signals man.
It was a rhetorical question.
How the heck am I suppose to know that? You asked a question, it's that simple.
Seems to be... to you, the self-appointed authority. I think it just seems to be different than your own opinion, thus you must vilify it in order to verify your own. That's quite common actually. But let me save you the trouble of the same old tired insult...it's just a vibe.
First of all, I'm no authority nor do i wish to be one, just going from what you say here. I can't tell you that enough. In my first post I shared my experience with you regarding the common escapist mentality of those who share your views. Then you simply showed exactly that! My question above I don't believe was insulting or anything, it's just simple reasoning. If you choose not to follow religion nor any religous routines, is it not your own "desire" to do so? Or was it a command from God that you are not following religion or religous routines?
As is yours - in most of your posts. It's fortunate that you're not deleting your old posts anymore.
hmm Ah I believe that was a choice you mods made! Look man, you're taking all this too far, and I'm sorry for you that you see it this way. You can't keep blaming others who question you Tay. What fire are you talking about? I am 100% sure that if we were talking face to face and you'd see my gestures or the tone of my voice, you'd see all of this completely different. Hence buddy, I can't stress this enough either, stop with the "vibes". It's not working for you, at least in regards to me.
It was just a simple question man... peace
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Peace M,
Tay, you have and are yet again taking what I say totaly the wrong way. It's not condascending, just trying to lighten up the mood a little bro. Especially after you start flinging "turds". The problem is your so called "vibes". You are getting the wrong signals man.
The only thing that allows me to generate any "vibe" is the text you put on the screen. As we've agreed, you don't know me, and I don't know you. Thus, the use of the language is paramount to understanding each other. Saying things like "what do you expect from.... Tay" in the context that you used is condascending and insulting. I'm honestly not sure if you're aware or not, so take this as sincere, since that's where you're coming from.
I mentioned a "vibe" in one thread, one time, yet you bring it up in every reply as if I live by the seat of my pants.
And now you're telling me you're only trying to lighten things up. It was a joke. I don't understand that sort of humor.You can't keep blaming others who question you Tay.
Muhammad, please...look through my posts on this forum. Show me where I blamed someone who questioned me. This is an outright exaggeration. And I'm not even blaming you for anything besides your tone, which you say is my own misconception.
I am 100% sure that if we were talking face to face and you'd see my gestures or the tone of my voice, you'd see all of this completely different.
I would hope so.
That'll be all from me on this thread. I understand where you're coming from and I have no hard feelings. I just hope you understand where I'm coming from as well.
Peace,
Tay -
Hi Kurt-
and it doesnt really matter what negative connotations this may bring up in other peoples minds, thats not for me to worry about. I agree that there are many who stray from the one true religion whatever sect they call themselves, but this does not mean that if we call ourselves muslims we are dividing into a sect.
Me, I am not talking about the negative connotations that one may have of the word "muslim" - I am speaking more about how "people who call themselves muslims" often, like "others", seem to divide MANKIND into groups I often find that when someone who calls themselves a "muslim" USES the word "muslim", they OFTEN use it specifically to DIFFERENTIATE that they are in a group that is DIFFERENT from the Christians, or the Jews, or the {fill in the blank}. Since I believe that the Quran (e.g. 319) states that the true religion is our submission to God's will, AND, the Quran says that this ONE AND THE SAME religion / message was delivered by ALL the prophets, I am saying that I am thus uncomfortable using the word "muslim" as a differentiator / label that I believe most OFTEN is USED IN ORDER TO MEAN I am a follower of the Quran and the teachings of Mohammad. Although this definition may be TRUE, I believe it also DIFFERENTIATES from the SAME MESSAGE that God says was delivered by the OTHER PROPHETS too. To me, I find such a meaning of the word "muslim" to be divisive because
- I believe the word "muslim" in Arabic is an adjective, a DESCRIPTION of the characteristics of a person (i.e. one who submits their will to God). I do not believe it is a "label". It is the CHOICE of whether one submits their will to God that is the differentiator here, NOT what they CHOOSE to call themselves ("Muslims", "Christians", etc...). I believe that this thinking is in alignment with the Quran (262)
- I believe the DEFINITION / TRANSLATION of the word "muslim" is "one who submits their will to God" / "submitter". Since the word "muslim" has a translated meaning, I believe that the CHOICE to NOT translate it and to instead say "muslim" in an english conversation implies that the word is a NAME / LABEL that does not have a meaning - that it is referring to a group of people that CALL THEMSELVES that name (and I generally find that this same group of people VIEW OTHERS that do NOT call themselves by this name as belonging in a DIFFERENT GROUP... i.e. sect)
- I find that most people that call themselves "muslims" EXCLUDE people that are using other "NAMES" / "LABELS" like CHRISTIANS or JEWS from their definition of the word "muslim". I find this to be divisive, because again, the differentiator here seems to be what one CHOOSES to call themselves, and NOT what one believes.
- I believe that the QURAN TELLS US that it does not matter what we choose to call ourselves, and that it is our CHOICES AND ACTIONS that determine whether we are to be rewarded by God. To me, it seems the QURAN is making the point that such a LABEL is unimportant. And to me, LABELS are inherently divisive.
- I have found many people that call themselves Christians, Jews, {fill in the blank} that I believe follow God's will MORE CLOSELY as defined by the Quran than MANY people I know that call themselves "muslims". I find that most people who call themselves "muslims" "exclude" such people from their definition of those who are "following God's will" - which again, I find to be divisive.
Kurt - I am certainly NOT saying that you fit the description I have outlined above, I am merely sharing my thinking, experience and why I think what I have said here.
Remember, every english word came from some other language originally, so Muslim is a proper term to use even in english
My point is - I believe that there is a REASON why someone CHOOSES to use an Arabic word in an english conversation INSTEAD of ALSO translating THAT word into English. What is the BASIS for being SELECTIVE about which words to translate and which words to not? The answer to that question is what my post concerns.
By the way, i listened to some of your piano playing and you sound pretty good brother, whats your story.
Thanks! I'm happy to share "my story" but maybe you could clue me in on what aspect you are interested in!
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Salaamu &alaikum wa rahmatullahi, wa rawhuhu wa barakaatuhu wa salawaatuhu.
Peace greetings to you, sir, as well as God's caring mercy, his refreshing mercy, his blessings from within and blessings from without.
yay hail Praise be to God!
Saboushi!! Dear, Saboushi! I love you! (As a brother in faith of course ;D)
Praise be to God, the most gracious the most merciful!!!
May God bless you for being an intelligent thinking individual who can see past the facades and get straight to the bone.
Praise be to God and may God continue to bless you. You have seen the truth of this matter, the one that many here refuse to see.
Again, I cannot say all the words that I feel right now, I am elated with joy and just want to praise God & commend you. Since I know it was God who guided you I will praise him, Halleluyah, Subhaanahu ta&aalaa, &azza and jalla. Again, praise God! May he continue to guide you and light your way with his light, the light of truth, reason and faith!
Godbless,
Anwar -
Salam Samir,
Me, I am not talking about the negative connotations that one may have of the word "muslim" - I am speaking more about how "people who call themselves muslims" often, like "others", seem to divide MANKIND into groups I often find that when someone who calls themselves a "muslim" USES the word "muslim", they OFTEN use it specifically to DIFFERENTIATE that they are in a group that is DIFFERENT from the Christians, or the Jews, or the {fill in the blank}.
I understand what you are saying above, but please let me ask you, does not God differentiate between Jews and Christians {fill in the blank} within the Quran?
This appears to be an thought process that goes along the same lines as Brother Yasin's regarding heaven on earth. As he put it, "a System for a soceity where nobody would experience hunger or thirst."
The idea that nobody would experience hunger or thirst is not for this plane of existance. We have bodies, and we will get hungry once again after you eat. It is suppose to be like that. Does not Allah know his own creation? If you look at what God says to us regarding the life of this world and how there is a difference between believers and not, jews and christians, etc. Your ideas even though could be noble in some form or intent, they are more along the lines of what you wish or like to believe instead of Quranic truth. Yes the religion is Submission and the Quran came in Arabic, and Islam is sufficient.
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Hi Zahrahabibi
Thanks for your post. A few comments
Using the word muslim says that person practices Islam.
Well, this is part of my point I understand the arabic word "Islam" to mean submission (to God's will). If I were to ask a Christian or a Jew if they try to submit their will to God, I find that many will say "yes". To me, that MEANS that yes, they TRY to follow the religion revealed by God. If I ask them if they practice "Islam", they will usually say "no". I believe that is because they associate the arabic word "Islam" to mean a DIFFERENT RELIGION - a religion that is DIFFERENT than what was revealed to them by Moses and Jesus. BUT IT IS NOT A DIFFERENT RELIGION - IT IS THE SAME RELIGION - it is just that the Torah and Gospels were (as I understand it) the efforts of man writing about their experience with the teachings of prophets of God, whereas the Quran is a recording of the message of God. Nevertheless, my understanding from the Quran is that Christianity and Judaism are based upon the SAME MESSAGE that God revealed to ALL COMMUNITIES. By me using the word "Islam" when I speak with a Christian or a Jew, I KNOW ALMOST ALWAYS WITH CERTAINTY that they WILL respond with caution and sometimes / often with a desire to "convert me" - but if I instead tell them that I try follow God's one religion, submission, then that keeps the door open for further meaningful conversation. This is an example of why I feel it is "divisive" to use the word "Islam" or "muslim" in an english conversation; I find that these words have MEANINGS that are DIFFERENT than what I understand the Quran SAYS they mean - and that people who call themselves "muslims" are usually AWARE of who non-"muslims" will interpret those words. In my experience, those words are used to MAKE SURE SOMEONE ELSE KNOWS "I believe something different than you - my book is different than yours". To me, intentionally conveying such a message meets MY definition of "divisive".
And even though Islam means surrender, and that anyone who surrenders to God is considered a muslim, other religions do not adhere to that belief and would be offended if they were told this.
If I were them, I would be offended too! But when I ask them if they surrender / submit their will to God, I do NOT find that they are offended in the least. To me, that seems to demonstrate that maybe YOU and THEY perceive a difference between one who surrenders their will to God vs. what "a muslim" means. Me, when people ask me if I am a Christian or a Jew, my response is something like If by Christian, you mean a follower of the teachings of Jesus, then yes, I am a Christian - of if by Jew you mean one who praises God (my understanding of the origin of the word Jew), then I am a Jew. I suspect that any person who worships God might be OK with those definitions?
Islam has its roots in Judaism and Zorasterism, and Christianity
Hmmm... my understanding is that this is not a "Quranic" point of view. I understand the Quran to state that all of these other religions you mention are the same religion as outlined in the Quran, AFTER man had put their stamp on it.
When we (people) began to back into corners it begins to look cultish and that's scary
Not sure what you mean here...
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Hi Anwar-
Thanks for your post.
and the only reason I call myself a Muslim is because it has come to mean one who claims to follow the Quran and the last prophet Muhammad (God bless him). So because I do this i am Muslim, but by default.
I agree that this is the POPULAR definition, but if I am not mistaken, doesn't the Quran say that Abraham named followers "submitters" (227 - this tells me that BEFORE the Quran, a word was used to describe those who followed God's will. Since Muslim is an arabic word, and it seems clear to me that Abraham did not speak the arabic of the Quran, I assume that the word "muslim" in the Quran may have been a TRANSLATION of whatever word(s) Abraham used to describe those who followed God's will. I am arguing that if we CHOOSE to use this word as a LABEL / NOUN instead of an adjective, that this is a divisive practice BECAUSE we are INTENTIONALLY EXCLUDING Christians and Jews and others from the MEANING of that word AND I would argue that we already KNOW that Christians and Jews will REJECT the statement that they are "Muslims" if that word is used as a NOUN/LABEL. But in my experience, they do NOT reject that word when I explain that the word is simply an adjective to mean "one who submits their will to God". How could they reject it if that's what it means? I am not saying that they would use that word to describe themselves - UNLESS THEY WERE SPEAKING ARABIC! ) To me, this is just like me asking a Christian or a Jew Is Allah your God? In my experience, they are not comfortable with this - EVEN THOUGH Arabic Christians use the word Allah when they refer to God. (By the way Anwar, I understand that you are in agreement with the concept of what I am stating - I am merely taking this opportunity to further clarify (also for myself) my struggle with this matter!)
But the question will come up 'are you Muslim?' And here's the tricky one. I used to say flat out NO, but I do follow the Quran.
My answer is more like "If my muslim, you mean one who submits my will to God, then yes I am a muslim. Just like I am a Christian if you mean one who follows the teachings of Christ..."
"I only follow the Quran. Other Muslims follow other books besides the Quran
I agree with that statement - but when I am speaking to Christians for example, I also tell them that I follow the Bible - heck, I quote the bible to Christians rather often. I am studying the Bible intently to have a common ground for explaining that what was given to Muhammad is no different than what was given to Jesus or Moses or Abraham or...
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Anwar-
Thank you for your post - that is about the nicest post I have ever received - thank you.Maybe you would be kind enough to translate for me (since I don't speak Arabic)?
Salaamu &alaikum wa rahmatullahi, wa rawhuhu wa barakaatuhu wa salawaatuhu.
May peace always be with you Anwar-
Samir -
Hey Tay!
I echo Anwar's sentiments here. I agree with you for the most part. And I apologize for getting your thread off track.
Thanks for your response - and your kind apology - I must admit that I did feel like my post got hijacked ;D but all is well. Thank you and Peace-
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Hi M_Mehdi - thanks for your post.
but please let me ask you, does not God differentiate between Jews and Christians {fill in the blank} within the Quran?"
Yes - I agree that God does do so. But I am not clear on what point you are trying to make. I believe that God labels those people who call themselves Jews and Christians as DOING IT WRONG - that among many of the manners in which they do NOT submit to God's will, ONE of those ways is that they will not accept you unless you follow THEIR religion (2120). I find that God MAKES IT CLEAR (at least to me) that their PRACTICES are DIVISIVE. I would suspect that you were trying to make a point that was CONTRARY to mine - and so maybe you could help me understand what that is (sorry I missed it!)
This appears to be an thought process that goes along the same lines as Brother Yasin's regarding heaven on earth. As he put it, "a System for a soceity where nobody would experience hunger or thirst."
The idea that nobody would experience hunger or thirst is not for this plane of existance. We have bodies, and we will get hungry once again after you eat. It is suppose to be like that. Does not Allah know his own creation? If you look at what God says to us regarding the life of this world and how there is a difference between believers and not, jews and christians, etc. Your ideas even though could be noble in some form or intent, they are more along the lines of what you wish or like to believe instead of Quranic truth. Yes the religion is Submission and the Quran came in Arabic, and Islam is sufficient.
I'm sorry, but again, I was not clear on your point. Are you saying that we are SUPPOSED to use the arabic word "muslim" and "Allah" in an english conversation?
they are more along the lines of what you wish or like to believe instead of Quranic truth.
Yes I agree - I wish and like to believe this because to me, it not only makes sense, but I find that it IS IN FACT a Quranic truth. In some of my earlier responses, I explained WHY I believe that the common practice of those who call themselves muslims are, in my believe, PERPETUATING the division of mankind into sects - something that the Quran, to me, CLEARLY TELLS US not to do. I am left with the understanding that you have a very different view - and I am OK with that. I just disagree with your conclusion that there is no merit in my argument that this is a Quranic truth. -
Oops - just have previewed before my last post. The last "quote" included my response. Here it is again for clarity (sorry)
they are more along the lines of what you wish or like to believe instead of Quranic truth.
Yes I agree - I wish and like to believe this because to me, it not only makes sense, but I find that it IS IN FACT a Quranic truth. In some of my earlier responses, I explained WHY I believe that the common practice of those who call themselves muslims are, in my believe, PERPETUATING the division of mankind into sects - something that the Quran, to me, CLEARLY TELLS US not to do. I am left with the understanding that you have a very different view - and I am OK with that. I just disagree with your conclusion that there is no merit in my argument that this is a Quranic truth.
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Salam Samir,
Thank you for taking the time to respond.
I believe that God labels those people who call themselves Jews and Christians as DOING IT WRONG - that among many of the manners in which they do NOT submit to God's will, ONE of those ways is that they will not accept you unless you follow THEIR religion (2120). I find that God MAKES IT CLEAR (at least to me) that their PRACTICES are DIVISIVE. I would suspect that you were trying to make a point that was CONTRARY to mine - and so maybe you could help me understand what that is (sorry I missed it!)
I pray I can help in making it more clear for you.
I'm sorry, but again, I was not clear on your point. Are you saying that we are SUPPOSED to use the arabic word "muslim" and "Allah" in an english conversation?
No, not "SUPPOSE", but that there is nothing wrong with doing so. You appear to be under the impression of doing so is bad. I'm saying it is not especially since the Quran came down to us in Arabic it is definitly nothing wrong with bringing the arabic terms about to understanding and teaching others their meaning (at least to the best of our ability).
Also you apear to imply that using Arabic terms automaticly turns people off to the message. To this I simply say, so what? I know it might sound "harsh" but I/we as Muslims are not here to try and suger coat ourselves let alone God's Message for those who when upon hearing it get "turned off". No where in the Quran does it say that we have to change ourselves our words and our being(as Muslims) to fit the lifes of others in order to impress them so they listen to us! If my daily prayers and submission to Allah aswell as my arabic Quran is offensive to them, not my problem.
My wife and I were talking about this but on a another subject, same thing though. How in society if someone has a tattoo or a piercing there's always another who is "offended" by the way that particulare person looks. The truth is the person who is "offended" is the one with the actual problem.. not the one walking around with tattoos and piercings who is just fine with who and what he is. And simply in today's social climate the bad scary guy with the tattoo is the Muslim who dares to speak in arabic in the so called post 9/11 world.
I just disagree with your conclusion that there is no merit in my argument that this is a Quranic truth.
I'm sure there is some sort of merit in it for yourself. Once more,your ideas even though could be noble in some form or intent, they are more along the lines of what you wish or like to believe instead of Quranic truth. I understand that you are trying to somehow bring a unity between the religions.
What you appear to be doing here Samir, is trying to unit man's religion instead of God's you said
Me, when people ask me if I am a Christian or a Jew, my response is something like If by Christian, you mean a follower of the teachings of Jesus, then yes, I am a Christian - of if by Jew you mean one who praises God (my understanding of the origin of the word Jew), then I am a Jew. I suspect that any person who worships God might be OK with those definitions?
Not really. What you just described above is someone who is known as a social chameleon, or religous chameleon (in this case). Jews and Christians are people of the book, but their religion is not Islam therefore they are not Muslims. There are rightous people within these religions, but they are not Muslim. What's more... there's absolutely nothing wrong with that!
Christians believe that Jesus is God and Jews don't believe that Jesus was a Prophet of God. So even though you may have some noble intent in what you are doing by this, you seem to decieving those who you are speaking to as you described above (by telling them you are christian or jew). It appears to be a sneaky tactic that a politician would use to try and get the most amount of votes.
Which leads to this
By me using the word "Islam" when I speak with a Christian or a Jew, I KNOW ALMOST ALWAYS WITH CERTAINTY that they WILL respond with caution and sometimes / often with a desire to "convert me" - but if I instead tell them that I try follow God's one religion, submission, then that keeps the door open for further meaningful conversation.
Look, if people have a problem with the word Islam, the problem is with them. You're using tatics and deception it seems. Hiding and sugar coating and for what? Just to impress people who have a problem with Islam? Who have a problem that God gave his Message to arabs in the Arabic tounge? What is it about Islam that makes people cautious? And more important why are you trying to impress such people anyway? Bro, your tactics are not good nor honorable. Using such tactics as they use in TV commercials to try and reach the largest amount of the population.
Since Islam awareness has hit the US it's no surprise that certain Americans coming from the strict evangelical Christianity have come to understand and except God's words within the Quran. That's a beutiful thing. bravo
However, one thing they fail to leave behind upon coming to this understanding is their belief of Evangelicalism. Therefore they are in ways bringing their old evangelical selfs to Islam. Islam is not an evangelical System (Religion).
Therefore it's no surprise that we see so called muslims trying to fit God's message into man's ways. Hence, why it's no surprise that we see a rush of folks who want to walk on egg shells for others. Especially in a social climate like today's where Islam and Muslim are the guys wearing the black hats (aka movie bad guys). This is not Islam~!
Today's pesudo muslims are not strong enough to uphold their true Deen in light of the social resistance to Islam, therefore they compromise and rationalizing God's Message into socially acceptable views. nope
Samir, in this subject there is talk of offence
And even though Islam means surrender, and that anyone who surrenders to God is considered a muslim, other religions do not adhere to that belief and would be offended if they were told this.
If I were them, I would be offended too! But when I ask them if they surrender / submit their will to God, I do NOT find that they are offended in the least.
I am sorry for you that you would be offended. I'm sorry for those who take offence to Islam and Muslims. I pity such people and in the deepest part of my heart feel sorry for such people that they have such immense yet fragile egos that they want everyone to walk on egg shells in order to pacify them.
peace
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Salam Phoenix1,
peace Mehdi,
So you think that islam is not an organized religion?In light of your comments regarding words and your different interpetations of, please excuse me but I have to ask what is your definition of "organized religion"?
Because you know me. I'll use the dictionary and look up
organized
- to form as or into a whole consisting of interdependent or coordinated parts, esp. for united action
&
religion
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
Please let me know. peace
- to form as or into a whole consisting of interdependent or coordinated parts, esp. for united action