Using the word "muslim" in an english conversation

progod

Peace,

p.s You dont seem like a hadith follower although from ur PM posts it gave me the impression since you ended some of ur statements with "..in the language of the Quran AND THE HADITH" as if to signify hadith as well. Why was that?

No, I'm not a hadeeth follower, but also I'm not anti-hadeeth. I'm still open to a way to possibly verify hadeeth that is better than what we have now, (the four companion witnesses to a hadeeth) that I and Damon agree with according to 411-16 I think is better for authenticating rumors, which is what the hadeeth really are, rumor. However, when I refer to the language of the Quran and the Hadeeth I am talking about the language found in them. They both use the same style of Old Classical Arabic, only the Quran is considered more eloquent literature than the hadeeth. However, there has been much tahreef in my opinion of Quranic pronunciation. When I listen to Quranic recitations now I see how the pronunciation of Old Classical Arabic words has been corrupted for the sake of making the book rhyme. Some of the tajweez are valid rules for the pronunication of Old Classical Arabic but some of the pronunciations are Dialect influence. like 'ibitalaa' for ibtalaa and 'wa aqutarib' for 'wa aqtarib and iqataham for iqtahama and more.

But again I was referring to the common form of Arabic found both in the Quran and the hadeeths, not the literal contents of the Hadeeth.

Godbless,
Anwar

almarh0m

Salamun alaykum

I am a 100% Hadiths follower , Hadiths of Allah that is . The hadiths is just one of the many names ( descriptions ) of The Quran 487 , 3923 among others from he 28 mentioned in The Quran . Al Furqan is another ( The Criterion ) , The Reminder , The Explanation and many other names ( descriptions ) etc .

If we were to change The Quran into The Great Reading , what would the present people ( Muslims ) who refer to themselves as " Quranists " be called ? The Great readingests or The Great Readers ? .

Peace

progod

Peace,

I kind of like that Great Readers. It has a certain ring to it. But besides that I don't believe in translating the word Quran which I've made obvious because it clearly to everyone means the last revelation given to the last prophet Muhammad (God bless him). However, the word Muslims is of a very different character and refers to a people that claim to follow the Quran and this last prohet but not to any person that is submissive to God, if that were so Muslims would have not problem saying that there religion was Submission to God, and as has been very obvioius here saying Submission to God is not enough for many Muslims. I see Quranist and Quranites as atleast being specific that we follow this last revelation and it is up to us to preach its messages correctly.

Godbless
Anwar

honor

peace
OK. But isn't it true that there are people who call themselves Muslim, but they are not?
And there are people who don't know what the word "muslim" means but do "believe in one God?" (which can mean a variety of different things, but that's not important right now).

Salam Phoenix1~

Of course its true that their are people who call themselves muslims, but just because one can judge them as not a practicing muslim, one can also judge people as practicing muslims, and judge them in different ways, this has no relevance as to why we should or should not call ourselves muslims. I completely agree with you, their are lots of muslims, who are not aware that they are muslim, and so also are not aware of the Quran, which could completley enhance and develop their deen and way of life in submitting to the One God. Either way, just because others abuse the name Muslim, doesn't mean we shouldn't call ourselves muslim.

My Opinion of course

Honor

phoenix1

peace Honor,
OK. But what is a Muslim? a person who calls himself a muslim? or someone who is 'peaceful or 'submitter' or whatever?
When the quran says "don't die except as muslim?" is it saying we should take up a title?
I don't think it makes sense that way. It doesn't say "don't die except as A Muslim." IMO, it makes a lot more sense as a description.
If it's a meaningless arabic title, then anyone can call themselves that and fulfill that condition. If it's a description, people will actually have to be "muslim" to do that. And if it is a description, than it must be translated, since people wouldn't know what being muslim is if they don't speak classical arabic.
I'm just looking to understand your view here.

honor

Peace Honor,

It is ironic that you refer to 2278 to prove that the words "muslim/islam" are proper names when in fact 2278 proves conclusively that they are common nouns. All one needs is to look objectively at the translation you quote. We can see the word Abraham in there. Notice that Abraham is the same in Hebrew, Arabic and English. Abraham lived long before those languages were invented and he probably spoke Canaanite. The word Abraham is a Canaanite word that was not translated across the ages in all those languages because it is a proper name. Thus, the god didn't translate it from whatever it meant in Canaanite because like all proper names it is a meaningless label. On the other hand, the word "muslim" is Arabic. So those who take it is a proper name and don't translate it are claiming that the followers of Abraham were called some gibberish word in a future language not even invented until a few thousand years later. Of course this is impossible and the god certainly translated the word into the Arabic "al-muslimeen" from whatever it was in Canaanite.

So are we supposed to follow the god or are we supposed to follow those who are emotionally attached to a label?

Please see

http//www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/peacefulness.htm

Peace,

Ayman

Salam Ayman~

"On the other hand, the word "muslim" is Arabic. So those who take it is a proper name and don't translate it are claiming that the followers of Abraham were called some gibberish word in a future language not even invented until a few thousand years later. Of course this is impossible and the god certainly translated the word into the Arabic "al-muslimeen" from whatever it was in Canaanite."

So your saying that because I take the name Muslim, that I am claiming that the followers of Abraham were called some gibberish word??? whatever

You know...I could careless what the original spelling, pronounciation, root of the word, birth of the word...of Abrahams name really is. When god sent prophets, to guide us, to help us to the true path. He did not put into words that the prophets names must be prounounced, or spelled specifically, as proof to our belief in them. In other words, when God says muslim, and in arabic the meaning of that word, lets say for one example means Peaceful submission or peaceful one, ..point being,..when god said that word in the Quran, the ARABIC QURAN, he said it in ARABIC. So the arabic word for this meaning, is and has been MUSLIM. SO there is nothing wrong at all about a person, who believes in one god, and follows the Quran, has faith in it, and submits to God, to call themselves the ARABIC word muslim, knowing full well its meaning, and having the intention to live by that meaning.

Your examples mean nothing to deter me or make me think othewise, my dear friend.

Although, I very much value your opinion, and have always found you to be very thoughtful. Take no offense, if your history lesson, doesn't stop me from calling myself a Muslim.

Peace, or in ARABIC...Salam

Honor

jonny_k

Peace "anwar",

But again I was referring to the common form of Arabic found both in the Quran and the hadeeths, not the literal contents of the Hadeeth.

JK- Ok thnx i got ur pt. GOD Bless!

jonny_k

Peace sis "honor",
You said amongst other things

...when God says muslim, and in arabic the meaning of that word, lets say for one example means Peaceful submission or peaceful one, ..point being,..when god said that word in the Quran, the ARABIC QURAN, he said it in ARABIC. So the arabic word for this meaning, is and has been MUSLIM...

JK- Then we might as well leave the whole Quran in Arabic and never attempt to translate it at all. You see Arabising the way of life GOD prescribed in the Quran in any way is not right. It would take people away. On the other hand if one attempts to translated the Quran in full then the person will ultimately read the original Quran himself and he/she will understand it much better plus all misconceptions will be removed. If you strat off placing Arabic terms infront of ppl who dont know the Quran, theyll run away. GOD Bless!

ImamQuranonly

Peace all,

I can't help but add in my two non-scientific cents. Okay, if some of you don't like to use the term "muslim", no big deal. Say that you are "one who submits their will to God" or whatever you like. But if some like to sum it up and say "Muslim", what is wrong with that? Why should they be labeled as non-conforming to what "should" be done? Of course I know that none of you are really saying that.

Let's look at an example

"Hi, My name is Imam, I am a Welder." or should I say "Hi, My name is Leader, I am one who welds things together."

What difference does it make? If someone is doesn't know, or has a wrong impression of what a "welder" is, I can surely tell them exactly what I do, because all welders don't do the exact same job anyway. Many have specializations, etc.

My point is, to each his own in what he wants to call himself, that is part of what being "muslim" or "one who submits his will to God" is; one who also is a peacemaker; sorry, should I have said one who promotes peace?

As Salaamu Alaikum, (or peace be upon you for english preferers)
ImamQuranOnly(LeaderGreatReadingOnly) ;D

phoenix1

"Hi, My name is Imam, I am a Welder." or should I say "Hi, My name is Leader, I am one who welds things together."

Peace,
the difference here is that Imam, your name, is a meaningless proper noun. It doesn't describe you. Muslim is a description, not a meaningless noun. So that means that the meaning of the word is important, which means that if you don't speak the language of the quran, you're better off translating it.
In urdu, I would say "mera naam David hai. Mein bohut lamba hoon."
In English, I would translate that as "My name is David. I am very tall."
"waleed" was not translated because it is a name, and the word itself is more important than the meaning. But the word "lamba" (tall) was translated because it is a description, and the meaning is important.
The whole argument here is whether "muslim" and "islam" are proper nouns or common nouns or adjectives, and I think Ayman has shown quite convincingly that they are NOT proper nouns.
I

ayman

Peace Nadeem,

However, the following argument is not as rigid "How does one open his heart to a proper name? Of course this is nonsense."

According the above logic, the following is nonsense as well "I made a palace in my heart for Laura". The sentence does make sense. Additionally "Don't mess with me, or I'll pull an O.J on you!". How can you pull a proper name on someone? (O.J was convicted for murder.)

Thank you for your comment.

In the context of 3922 and 6125, is it the proper name that is being talked about here? So if someone invented a religion and named it Islam (as has already happened), does this mean that it suddenly becomes what is meant in 6125 and 3922? Of course not! This is illogical. This is what I meant.

Your first example of "I made a palace in my heart for Laura" demonstrates that proper names label an object for convenience but they are meaningless. Hence, it doesn't matter if she was named Laura or Betty and those are irrelevant to the idea that you are trying to convey. It is the person you are talking about. Is the word "islam" in 3922 and 6125 equally as meaningless and irrelevant to the meaning? Of course not!!

Your second example, actually demonstrates how proper names when used as part of an idiom are transformed into common nouns. Thus, the meaning that you are conveying with "Don't mess with me, or I'll pull an O.J on you!" is "Don't mess with me, or I'll kill you!". In this case, by being part of the idiom (underlined), OJ has become a common noun. Hence, if you translate this sentence to Arabic, you have to translate OJ using the common meaning it is now conveying (kill).

Peace,

Ayman

ImamQuranonly

Peace,
the difference here is that Imam, your name, is a meaningless proper noun. It doesn't describe you. Muslim is a description, not a meaningless noun. So that means that the meaning of the word is important, which means that if you don't speak the language of the quran, you're better off translating it.
In urdu, I would say "mera naam David hai. Mein bohut lamba hoon."
In English, I would translate that as "My name is David. I am very tall."
"waleed" was not translated because it is a name, and the word itself is more important than the meaning. But the word "lamba" (tall) was translated because it is a description, and the meaning is important.
The whole argument here is whether "muslim" and "islam" are proper nouns or common nouns or adjectives, and I think Ayman has shown quite convincingly that they are NOT proper nouns.
I

As Salaamu Alaikum Phoenix1

"Imam" is not a meaningless noun, it means "leader, or one who leads out front". Secondly Imam is not my name, it is a title that denotes a function. My name certainly is not "Imam". Would a Doctor say his name is "Doctor"? No, it is his/her title of function, in that case profession.

I don't see "muslim" as a proper name for anyone. I see it as a title of "function". Just as there is not need for a Doctor to say " I am one who diagnoses a patients illness and tries to cure them", I don't see the need for one to say "I am one who strives to submit their will to God", unless the person being spoken to is completely ignorant of the term; in which case not very many in the world are ignorant of the term "muslim" or "Islam" today.

Of course their are different types of "doctors", just as there are different types of "muslim". So I see no reason why if a person doesn't want to be associated with "muslims" that are of a different kind, why they wouldn't further explain how they are different. This is the opportunity for "dawah" or propogation if you will. Just because they are a different type of "muslim" (i.e. "doctor", eye doctor, internal specialist, obgyn, etc.), nevertheless they are still a "muslim".

Again, just my two cents and perspective. I believe people can call themselves horses if they like, what would that change about "Islam" and "muslims"?

As Salaamu Alaikum

phoenix1

peace ImamQuranonly,

I think you wrote,
"My name is Imam, I am a Welder."
If that sentence is in english, then it is telling me that Imam is the person's name. People's names are meaningless.
My name, Waleed, is arabic for "new born." And the fact that I'm typing this must tell you that I am not a new born.

In the sentence you gave, "imam" is being used as a name. So the meaning is not important.
If you said "My name is Welder, I am an imam." That's when the meaning of the word "imam" would be important since it is not a name.

let me add this,

Doctor is a title of a profession. You don't know what the word "doctor" actually means. But the meaning is not important. If doctors were called gafnsers, it wouldn't make any difference. so, if the word "muslim" was a title, then the way people use it all over the world is perfectly fine.
Except that's not how you are supposed to use it, and that's why people don't understand what the quran is saying, because they don't know the meanings of the words.

I believe (along with others) that the word "muslim" and "islam" are more like "imam" in the second sentence.

See, if you say, "I am a Muslim."
I will ask, "what is a Muslim?"
You will say, "A Muslim is someone who follows Islam."
I will ask, "what is Islam?"
You will say, "Islam is the true religion of God."

In the above conversation, Islam and Muslim are being used as names, as titles. The meaning of the words is not even mentioned. And even if it was, it would be completely and utterly irrelevant, since they are titles. You can substitute "Monkey" for the word "Muslim" there and it will not change the meaning of the sentences.

So, since the words "muslim" and "islam" do have meanings in the quran, and their meanings are relevant to the message, and because they are not used as proper nouns, you have to translate them like any other word.

The word "muslim" is like the word "smart."

You will not say "I am a Smart."

If you are tall, you will not say "I am a Tall."

If you are fat, you will not say "I am a Fat." Or a group of fat people will not say, "We are proud to be Fats."

do you get my point, now?

The crux of the issue is whether "muslim" is a proper name, or a common noun or description. Whether "islam" is the name of a religion, or just a word.

ImamQuranonly

peace ImamQuranonly,

I think you wrote,
"My name is Imam, I am a Welder."
If that sentence is in english, then it is telling me that Imam is the person's name. People's names are meaningless.
My name, Waleed, is arabic for "new born." And the fact that I'm typing this must tell you that I am not a new born.

In the sentence you gave, "imam" is being used as a name. So the meaning is not important.
If you said "My name is Welder, I am an imam." That's when the meaning of the word "imam" would be important since it is not a name.

let me add this,

Doctor is a title of a profession. You don't know what the word "doctor" actually means. But the meaning is not important. If doctors were called gafnsers, it wouldn't make any difference. so, if the word "muslim" was a title, then the way people use it all over the world is perfectly fine.
Except that's not how you are supposed to use it, and that's why people don't understand what the quran is saying, because they don't know the meanings of the words.

I believe (along with others) that the word "muslim" and "islam" are more like "imam" in the second sentence.

See, if you say, "I am a Muslim."
I will ask, "what is a Muslim?"
You will say, "A Muslim is someone who follows Islam."
I will ask, "what is Islam?"
You will say, "Islam is the true religion of God."

In the above conversation, Islam and Muslim are being used as names, as titles. The meaning of the words is not even mentioned. And even if it was, it would be completely and utterly irrelevant, since they are titles. You can substitute "Monkey" for the word "Muslim" there and it will not change the meaning of the sentences.

So, since the words "muslim" and "islam" do have meanings in the quran, and their meanings are relevant to the message, and because they are not used as proper nouns, you have to translate them like any other word.

The word "muslim" is like the word "smart."

You will not say "I am a Smart."

If you are tall, you will not say "I am a Tall."

If you are fat, you will not say "I am a Fat." Or a group of fat people will not say, "We are proud to be Fats."

do you get my point, now?

The crux of the issue is whether "muslim" is a proper name, or a common noun or description. Whether "islam" is the name of a religion, or just a word.

Salaam again Phoenix1

I don't think you got what I was saying, definitely didn't understand it. I get your one point on how I used the word Imam as a name, and you are correct in pointing that out. But just as you said, it could be used the other way as welder is used. That is the whole point. No one says my name is "Muslim". They say I am a "muslim". That is a big difference. Can you say "I am a doctor", "I am a politician", "I am a welder", "I am a Christian", etc. etc.

You and others have built your position around the point that "muslim" and "Islam" etc. are Arabic words and not english words. Okay, then as one poster pointed out, how come they are included and almost all english dictionaries today? Your examples of Tall, Fat, etc. don't really hold any weight in my thinking. Muslim and Islam are not similar to smart, tall, fat, etc. They are more like the examples that I have given, more complex titles of descriptions.

I have done dawah for years, as a quote "sunni", although I always had a problem with hadeeth, and as a Quran only follower. I have never had problems with the terms Islam and muslim being hinderances to getting the message across. It is not my job or intention to "convert" people, my desire is only to give the message as best as I can freely. It is between the listener and Allah as to whether or not they accept the truth. My job is done after I have given the message. If they would like more, I make myself available. If they have no interest, they have to return to Allah and answer for that. To me I would find it much more difficult trying to tell them why I deceived them by not telling them that I am a muslim who practices Islam by following the Quran only which is different than mainstream or popular understood Islam. I think I would have lost all of their trust by the time I get around to mentioning the Quran to them, or should I have said "The Great Reading?

As Salaamu Alaikum

phoenix1

Salam ImamQuranonly,

You and others have built your position around the point that "muslim" and "Islam" etc. are Arabic words and not english words. Okay, then as one poster pointed out, how come they are included and almost all english dictionaries today? Your examples of Tall, Fat, etc. don't really hold any weight in my thinking. Muslim and Islam are not similar to smart, tall, fat, etc. They are more like the examples that I have given, more complex titles of descriptions.

They are included in all english dictionaries at titles.
This is one example

the religious faith of Muslims, based on the words and religious system founded by the prophet Muhammad and taught by the Koran, the basic principle of which is absolute submission to a unique and personal god, Allah.
the whole body of Muslim believers, their civilization, and the countries in which theirs is the dominant religion.

And then it says, "also called Muhammadanism."
So, that shows clearly that as a title, the meaning of islam gets lost. It doesn't matter what you call this particular religion, as long as everyone knows what you are referring to. To me, the meaning matters.
If you ask anyone what "islam" means, they will tell you that it is the "religious faith of Muslims." But in arabic, that's not what the word means, is it?

As I see it, the words "islam" and "muslim" aren't any different than "tall" and "smart" and "fat." They are just words. You may attach extra baggage to them, but that's just you.
The quran says, "don't die except as muslim." Does it mean that you should call yourself Muslim, join a group before you die?? Of course not. The word muslim there actually means something, so we have to translate it just like all the other words. "Don't die except as peaceful" makes much more sense to me.
But anyway, I'm not going to go over all my points again with you. I think I've explained myself quite a lot already.
I recommend reading Ayman's article "What's in a name," and his "introduction to peacefulness" article.
I think Ayman has quite convincingly proved that islam, muslim, quran are not proper nouns.
You can read his, and others' arguments and decide for yourself. But please try to understand our view, I say this because a lot of people have not bothered to actually understand what I'm blabbering about and instead have assumed that I am just hate myself or I'm an evil manipulator.
peace.

ImamQuranonly

Salaams Phoenix1,

I pray that you are going to have a blessed day today, Allah willing.

Salam ImamQuranonly,
They are included in all english dictionaries at titles.
This is one example

the religious faith of Muslims, based on the words and religious system founded by the prophet Muhammad and taught by the Koran, the basic principle of which is absolute submission to a unique and personal god, Allah.
the whole body of Muslim believers, their civilization, and the countries in which theirs is the dominant religion.

And then it says, "also called Muhammadanism."

So, that shows clearly that as a title, the meaning of islam gets lost. It doesn't matter what you call this particular religion, as long as everyone knows what you are referring to. To me, the meaning matters.
If you ask anyone what "islam" means, they will tell you that it is the "religious faith of Muslims." But in arabic, that's not what the word means, is it?

I think this is from a dictionary that you got this definition of Islam. I personally don't have a problem with it until they get to "also called Muhammadanism". No "muslims" accept this definition. But that is why when doing dawah, propogating the Deen, since that is the reason why we would most likely even be having discussions with someone about this issue that is not a "muslim" already, you will have to continue to define and explain your faith as you practice it as opposed to how others do it, anyway. By not saying muslim and saying instead "one who strives to submit their will to God", you are not ending the issue by this simple definition. If anything, just like muslim, it creates many more questions. How are you striving to submit your will? What is your criteria? What is your source? I could go on and on and on. Either way, if you are trying to get someone to understand this way of thinking, Quran only, you will still be explaining long after saying either of the two, label or short definition.

In today's common language, Islam does mean the religious faith of Muslims. The problem is not in this definition. The problem is in the understanding of what the real faith of "muslims" should be, verses what is actually practiced. No short version of not saying "Islam" or "muslim" is going to relay this large volume of information to non followers of the Quran.

As I see it, the words "islam" and "muslim" aren't any different than "tall" and "smart" and "fat." They are just words. You may attach extra baggage to them, but that's just you.

The quran says, "don't die except as muslim." Does it mean that you should call yourself Muslim, join a group before you die?? Of course not. The word muslim there actually means something, so we have to translate it just like all the other words. "Don't die except as peaceful" makes much more sense to me.

I think that the Quran uses words similar to tall, smart and fat, but quite differently than the use for "Islam", "muslim", "mu'min", etc. I don't see any ayats that say "Don't die except as tall". But that is just being ridiculous and I digress. But I think my point is that Allah using these words in Quran with "extra baggage".

I think it does say that you should join a group before you die. Joining a group doesn't mean you get a membership card or attend a particular Masjid. It could just mean that you start to believe as others believe and act accordingly, and that alone makes you part of the group that are recognized by Allah as that name. Saying "Don't die except as peaceful" DOES NOT say that same thing. That translation is deficient and confusing. By that definition, anyone dying in a war is not at peace, and hence going to hell? I could give many examples, but I think one can open the mind of a rational person to see the flaw in this particular definition. So I would much rather say "as a muslim", and then allow the reader/listener to research or ask more questions to get the full meaning and understanding of what the Quran says it truly means to be a "muslim", since it is not an easily translatable word. These words are too encompassing and complex to translate simply. Too much of the real meaning is lost in english. Therefore by keeping the word in arabic, all possible meaning are still encompassed and it gives the speaker the opportunity to continue to convey the meaning without limiting it by a shorter english definition.

But anyway, I'm not going to go over all my points again with you. I think I've explained myself quite a lot already.
I recommend reading Ayman's article "What's in a name," and his "introduction to peacefulness" article.
I think Ayman has quite convincingly proved that islam, muslim, quran are not proper nouns.
You can read his, and others' arguments and decide for yourself. But please try to understand our view, I say this because a lot of people have not bothered to actually understand what I'm blabbering about and instead have assumed that I am just hate myself or I'm an evil manipulator.
peace.

I agree with you. I think you and I, and many others have expressed their points on this issue in this thread and some others that I have noticed as well. It appears that we will have to agree to disagree at this point, but the debate is just that; i.e. the whole purpose of the forum anyway.

I have read Ayman's well researched and put together article, and I agree with many points in it and don't with many others. I have many articles on this site that I have rebuttals for because I don't agree with their conclusions, but it will take time to get to them all. Currently I am getting ready to post my rebuttal to Wakas' article that states salaat does not equal prayer. I will get to the others as I can, Allah willing. Don't get me wrong though, I love all the articles and appreciate all of the work done by the writers of the articles. I just have come to some other conclusions on many things based on my own research, level of knowledge and understanding. Overall, I would definitely say that I agree with more articles than not, but some of the ones I disagree with are critical to the process of growth in Al-Islam, IMHO. Without much of the work that has been by the authors of articles here, I may not be where I am today in my understanding. So I thank Allah for them and their contributions!

I think I understand you all's view, I just don't 100% agree with it. But I don't think about you that "just hate myself or I'm an evil manipulator", is a proper way to handle it. I am more accepting of others choices and opinions than that, although I do still understand why some people would say or feel that way about you. Please continue to express your opinions, research and conclusions as you see fit, not saying that you needed my encouragement or permission. I am just expressing my desire.

As Salaamu Alaikum peace

phoenix1

peace Imam,
Hope you are having a great day too.

By not saying muslim and saying instead "one who strives to submit their will to God", you are not ending the issue by this simple definition.

We disagree on the meaning of the word as well. I think that "muslim" means "peaceful." Someone who is at peace. Being at peace meaning that he/she is free from emotions. I think the whole idea is that when we are not emotional (at peace), we can THINK and make the right decision based on truth. Being at peace is what gives us free will. Because we aren't being pushed around by emotions. "islam" is a state of mind.

Either way, if you are trying to get someone to understand this way of thinking, Quran only, you will still be explaining long after saying either of the two, label or short definition.

For me, the issue isn't explaning my beliefs to others. It's more about understanding these words and being able to apply them. I believe if we take them as titles, the meaning becomes lost and we can't live by the quran's message.
But if I was explaning what I believe, I'd have a pretty tough time because I don't really know what I believe. But I guess I follow the ideology of being at peace. And following verifiable truths.
I am I part of any religious group? I'm not. I don't hold exactly the same views as anyone on this forum. I do agree with some more than others, and I try to learn from other, wiser (IMO) members. But my path is different from everyone else's. We can't bunch people up in groups. Yes, it's convenient, but hardly the right thing to do.

I think that the Quran uses words similar to tall, smart and fat, but quite differently than the use for "Islam", "muslim", "mu'min", etc. I don't see any ayats that say "Don't die except as tall". But that is just being ridiculous and I digress. But I think my point is that Allah using these words in Quran with "extra baggage".

OK.

I think it does say that you should join a group before you die. Joining a group doesn't mean you get a membership card or attend a particular Masjid. It could just mean that you start to believe as others believe and act accordingly, and that alone makes you part of the group that are recognized by Allah as that name.

Allah doesn't recognize people by names. Names are superficial. Allah recognizes people by their thoughts and actions.
If I want to be "muslim," which muslim group should I join? Because muslim is just a meaningless title, people can call themselves Muslims and believe whatever the hell they want. A label/title/name is hardly a way to know people's beliefs. God cannot be so superficial as to judge people according to their title, it's all about our inner selves.
But you can argue that people can abuse a title. Well, if people can, then that renders the title useless and even dangerous. It becomes something that should be avoided, because it can mislead people.
But you can say that there's nothing wrong with saying you're a Muslim anyway. But, again, you will have to resort to syaing "I am a TRUE muslim," because there will always be other people with the same title.
The quran doesn't use the terms "true muslim" and "good muslim" and "bad muslim" because muslim is not a proper noun but just a description.

Saying "Don't die except as peaceful" DOES NOT say that same thing. That translation is deficient and confusing. By that definition, anyone dying in a war is not at peace, and hence going to hell?

you have to understand what is meant by "peaceful" in that verse to understand it. And I'm pretty sure "peacefulness" is explained in the quran. A person dying in a war can be at peace.

These words are too encompassing and complex to translate simply.

How did you come to that conclusion? Honestly.
A word is a word. It has a certain meaning. And that meaning can be conveyed in another language no matter how many words it takes.

Therefore by keeping the word in arabic, all possible meaning are still encompassed and it gives the speaker the opportunity to continue to convey the meaning without limiting it by a shorter english definition.

But you could argue that for a lot of words. In fact, you can argue (and some have argued) that it's futile to translate the quran at all because the meaning is lost. So either you learn classical arabic or whatever or go to hell.

AND, what the quran says is not something unique to it. It's message is found in other holy scriptures, and we can learn it's message without any book at all. It says that it is a reminder (you remind someone if they already know, but have forgotten), and it says that it explains the truths we already possess. So "islam" and "muslim" explain concepts that are as old as mankind itself, and they are concepts that we instinctively understand. It's not possible not to be able to explain these words in another language.

I think I understand you all's view, I just don't 100% agree with it. But I don't think about you that "just hate myself or I'm an evil manipulator", is a proper way to handle it. I am more accepting of others choices and opinions than that, although I do still understand why some people would say or feel that way about you. Please continue to express your opinions, research and conclusions as you see fit, not saying that you needed my encouragement or permission. I am just expressing my desire.

Thanks for putting in the effort to understand what I'm saying. I'm not a great writer or speaker, so I'm not really able to convey my ideas that clearly all the time. But anyway, I think we must continue to debate and challenge each others' views, because that will only lead to a better understanding for both sides. But we need to respect each other and give each other the benefit of the doubt. Maybe some of us are wrong, or delusional, maybe some of us are having trouble letting go of emotional attachments, but I'm sure most members here aren't willingly distorting the truth for personal gain.
Thanks.

Someone

Peace upon all,

There is a rule in the arabic language that differentiates between proper and common nouns

Common nouns can be used with the definite article "al" (chamsya or 9mariya for arabic speakers). "al" represents the definite article "the" in english. Furthermore, common nouns can be used in the plural form.

Like, as example, we can say "mounafi9" and "al mounafi9" and "al mounafi9ine", which is thus a common noun.

On the other hand, proper nouns do not accept neither "al" nor the plural form.

For example, "ibrahim" is a proper nouns because, at least in "al quran" if we judge by it, because there is no definite or a plural of "ibrahim".

Is there any exeptions to this rule in "al quran"?

phoenix1

peace

let me quote some people, here, from a thread on this subject I started a while ago.
DISCLAIMER I am not trying to patronize anyone, or educate anyone, or implying that others are stupid. I am only sharing something that I believe is true.

Idolfree

The word "muslim" is a description, it describes one who holds to the philosophy of Peacefulness(Islam). The God has not given us a title freezing us in time because man is always in the process of becoming, we are always sowing seeds in our spirits, and as long as those seeds manifest peaceful character, we can be described by the word "muslim", when those seeds manifest wicked behavior, we can no longer be described as "muslim".

There is a verse in this reading that tells us not to die except as "muslims", and what it is saying to us is that in order for onr to rest in peace, they must die in peace, you take your emotional state with you after you leave the physical plane, you do not take a TITLE with you, titles are meaningless.

Look at how many people use the title MUSLIM, who are totally opposite to the truth teachings located within the God's message.

Lastly, if we take the word as NAMED, rather than DESCRIBED, then that means our names whould all be "Muslim Smith", or "Muslim Jones", or "Muslim Muhammad", etc. Did the God or Ibraheen really "NAME" all of the people, or was it a description of a type of character?

Alpha97

it is a description of a state of being.
otherwise it is the seed to SECT-FORMATION!

Alpha

Names not only convey understanding and knowledge, it also gives a tool of identification to our ego. It implies to ego that he is safe, because he is one of a group. Like many footbal fans! They belong to a club and the club wins and they are very happy while they did not do anything themselves. It is finding salse gratitudes so that ego feels safe and imoortal. A name must have a function. and if the function is synchron with the WIL of universe, then it serves! It belongs to the religion of servanthood. nat as a label, but as a entity fullfilling its purpose.

ImamQuranonly

peace

let me quote some people, here, from a thread on this subject I started a while ago.
DISCLAIMER I am not trying to patronize anyone, or educate anyone, or implying that others are stupid. I am only sharing something that I believe is true.

Idolfree
Alpha97Alpha

As-Salaamu Alaikum,

As I am new to posting on this site and have previously primarily just read the articles, I was not aware that there was a person on here that used as a nickname "Allah". Maybe it is no big deal for people on here who don't believe in using terms like "muslim" and "Islam", etc., but I find it highly unlikely that a person who believes in the divinity and truth of Al-Quran would go as far as to use this as a nickname. It is kind of offensive to me, but I still support freedom of a person to do what they like as long as it doesn't hurt someone else. Hurting my sensitivities doesn't count. So, not that you needed my permission or approval, continue to use it until you are actually questioned by Allah!

"Muslim" is just a state of intentional willing submission to Allah and His guidance, of which a huge primary part is worshipping Him only! Calling yourself a "muslim" does not guarantee you a place in Paradise. On the contrary, being a "muslim" is a state that demands further growth in one direction or another. Once you become "muslim", or submit your conscious will to try to obey Allah and follow His guidance, then you will be tested in your submission. If you are successful in passing your tests, Allah will impart "iman" or faith into your heart and you will become a "mu'min", believer, or one that has trusting faith in Allah. Although these are titles, they denote the actual positive participation of the act described in the definition of the title by that person. So one can "call" themselves one of these labels/titles, but it doesn't mean that they are so. Only Allah, and that person some of the time, truly know if they are true or not. One can call himself a "doctor", but just calling themselves that doesn't mean that they have actually earned a doctor's degree in any specialized field according to the true definition of doctor, or what would constitute the understood actions of a doctor.

If a person is successful at becoming a "mu'min" (one with trusting faith in Allah), then they will still continue to be tested, and according to their continued state of "muslim" that they should be in (because it is still incompassed within the term of "mu'min&quot, they can move back a degree to only "muslim", stay the same as a "mu'min", or if they are truly successful they can become of the "mutaqeen", those who are in a state of practising "taqwa" (being extremely concious of Allah), or in other words those who are able to live in a state as if they can "see" Allah with them every moment, although they know that they can never "see" Allah, but they are aware that Allah always sees them. An analogy to the type of obedience and submission that this state of being is for the "mutaqeen"

If a person were driving their car on the highway, they may drive at a high rate of speed that grossly exceeds the speed limit; say the speed limit is 65 mph, but they are traveling at a speed of 90 mph. In almost all circumstances, if at some point that person sees a police officer either in front of them as they come upon them, or behind them in their rear view mirror, because of the fear of the potential consequences of their actions, they would reduce their speed to the rate of "obedience". One who is a "mutaqeen" lives in a constant state of "regardfulness or consciousness" of Allah that they never forget that all of their actions are being observed and recorded by Allah and that there are consequences for them. Most of us remember Allah "after" we have transgressed and thereafter seek forgiveness and repent. If we could "see" Allah with us in all of the actions we do, words we speak, etc., we would be totally obedient to His will, unless we become an open rejector of faith such as Shaitan.

Being a "muslim" does not guarantee paradise because once one has agreed to submit their "limited free will" to obey the will of Allah, when they are tested, if they continously fail the tests, then they have become hypocritical to their "oath" of willing submission; they have become a "munaafik", a hypocrite. This state may only be known by that person and Allah. One difference between a "munaafik", one who has turned back from his oath to submit their will freely to do the will of Allah, and a "kaafir", one who rejects faith in Allah; is that a "kaafir" has not taken an "oath" necessarily to submit their will to Allah. The "munaafik" becomes a "kaafir" as well because they have now also rejected the invitation to become a "mu'min" by refusing to submit their wills as they have promised to do by their oath of submission.

To sum up my point of understanding from studying Quran

a "muslim" is one who willingly submits their "limited free will" to do the will of Allah by obeying the guidance given.
calling yourself a "muslim" does not guarantee one that they will go to paradise.
being called or calling yourself a "muslim" does not mean that you are one, Allah knows best.
if one truly becomes a "muslim", it is a stepping stone to either becoming a "mu'min" or a "munaafik".
one's act of submitting in obedience to Allah's will is constantly tested by Allah and they determine their own success or failure by the choices that they make in life.
if one passes the test of obedience to Allah, Allah strenghtens their heart with "faith" and they become "mu'min"
After becoming "mu'min" if one continues to be "muslim" as well, they eventually can grow to "mutaqee"
8 After becoming "mu'min", if one fails to continue to also be "muslim", they can lose "iman(faith)" and eventually end up becoming a "munaafik".
A "munaafik" is also a "kaafir" because they have rejected the invitation to "faith" after taking an oath to submit willingly.
These levels of a person's committment to Allah varies in a person's life depending on their actions and decisions, and therefore were are told to at least "die not except in a state of muslim", the beginning level on the road to trusting faith in Allah. At least if you have truly actively submitted your will to obey Allah, which a big part of is not associating anyone or anything with Him in your "worship", then Allah will forgive you for all other mistakes and sin in your life if He so chooses.

"Worship" denotes not just physical rituals that are normally associated with it, but also what you give your full attention and motivations over to; to sum it up lightly.

These were just some spur of the moment ideas to post after reading the above post. So I am sure that it could be improved and/or elaborated upon more. I pray that it helps anyone, Allah willing.

As-Salaamu Alaikum peace