Using the word "muslim" in an english conversation
-
By "organized religion" I mean that there is a certain group, with their own title, that share things in common like rituals and books and beliefs. And you have to convert to get in. Like a club. And once you're part of that club, you have a ticket to heaven, and everyone not in the club is going to hell.
I don't think "islam" refers to an organized religion. -
I'm saying it is not especially since the Quran came down to us in Arabic it is definitly nothing wrong with bringing the arabic terms about to understanding and teaching others their meaning (at least to the best of our ability).
I agree with teaching others the meaning of these arabic terms - I just get the impression that you and I would teach differently on what those words mean and their significance.
Also you apear to imply that using Arabic terms automaticly turns people off to the message.
Yes this is what I am saying.
To this I simply say, so what? I know it might sound "harsh" but I/we as Muslims are not here to try and suger coat ourselves let alone God's Message for those who when upon hearing it get "turned off". No where in the Quran does it say that we have to change ourselves our words and our being(as Muslims) to fit the lifes of others in order to impress them so they listen to us!
Maybe I am mistaken, but my impression is that you are suggesting that Muslims are the one's with God's Message. I believe that the bible (and other scriptures) contain God's message as well. And my impression is that you and I mean something different when we use the word Muslim - so that makes our communication difficult (at least for me).
I understand that you are trying to somehow bring a unity between the religions.
I think maybe our beliefs are different here as well. I recognize that my beliefs are rather unconventional, but I only see ONE monotheistic religion - and I see that the "followers" of each religion, be it Christianity, Judaism, Islam, whatever, all see THEIR religion as unique and the only true religion. I am trying to minimize the differentiators that are used to keep each of these so-called "unique" religions divisive in nature.
What you just described above is someone who is known as a social chameleon, or religous chameleon (in this case). Jews and Christians are people of the book, but their religion is not Islam therefore they are not Muslims. There are rightous people within these religions, but they are not Muslim.
Again, since we seem to be using different definitions for the words "Islam" and "Muslim", I find it difficult to try and reach a resolution with you. If the same message (God's religion) was taught by Moses and Jesus, then to me, the followers of those teachings are no different than those who follow the Quran since I believe the Quran SAYS that the same message was taught by all the prophets. So, I do not agree with your position. I don't see much of a difference between trinitarian Christians and muslims who oppress their wives - to me, they are both doing it wrong, and by MY definition, a "Muslim" is someone who is DOING IT RIGHT - I cited a Quranic verse earlier that says that according to God, IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT YOU CALL YOURSELF - it was WHAT YOU DO AND BELIEVE that counts. Calling oneself a "muslim" because they go the masjid and pray five times a day but then attempt to rape women TO ME does not make that person "muslim" - because TO ME, being "muslim" means submitting oneself to God's will. And raping women is not my understanding of God's will.
Christians believe that Jesus is God
If you go the yahoo's telephone directory database, you will find about 140 denominations of Christianity. MANY of those denominations DO NOT BELIEVE that Jesus is God. What you are saying I find to be the doctrine that became the most prevalent doctrine over time. But I disagree with your generalization.
and Jews don't believe that Jesus was a Prophet of God.
Again, I disagree. Yes, as a generalization, this may be true. But Jesus and if I am not mistaken, the majority of his disciples and many followers were all Jews!
So even though you may have some noble intent in what you are doing by this
Thanks, but no noble intent here - just doing what I understand the Quran to be teaching.
you seem to decieving those who you are speaking to as you described above (by telling them you are christian or jew).
I'm not clear on the deception that you are attributing to me I have no doubt that the message Jesus and Moses taught were the same message that Muhammad taught. I find this truth to be clear in the Quran. Maybe you do not believe this? I would agree that most Christians and most Jews are not PRACTICING those teachings because of the man-made INSTITUTIONS that appointed themselves as the guardians and teachers of religion - but I find that without exception, these institutions have distorted and corrupted and innovated the message - and I find the institution of Islam to be no different in that regard.
It appears to be a sneaky tactic that a politician would use to try and get the most amount of votes.
I am sorry that you perceive my motives as sneaky tactics, but I disagree that there are any manipulative motives that I harbor. But I support your choice to believe whatever you choose.
Look, if people have a problem with the word Islam, the problem is with them. You're using tatics and deception it seems. Hiding and sugar coating and for what? Just to impress people who have a problem with Islam? Who have a problem that God gave his Message to arabs in the Arabic tounge? What is it about Islam that makes people cautious? And more important why are you trying to impress such people anyway? Bro, your tactics are not good nor honorable. Using such tactics as they use in TV commercials to try and reach the largest amount of the population.
I would not know where to begin to answer what you have said here - I find that you have stated your opinions as fact, and that you have accused me of several things without providing evidence to substantiate your accusations (e.g. implying that I am not honorable, that my attempt is to sugar coat, and other statements that you have made). But again, I support you in choosing to believe whatever you will - and simply disagree with your position.
-
Hi M_Mehdi
You asked "how" I felt that my post got hijacked - I was responding to Tay's kind apology for contributing to getting the thread off track. Although I appreciate you wanting to better understand my comment, I would prefer not to respond within this thread as I believe this will contribute to taking the thread off topic again. If you would like, feel free to contact me via e-mail to discuss.
-
Hi Phoenix1-
I like what you wrote
By "organized religion" I mean that there is a certain group, with their own title, that share things in common like rituals and books and beliefs. And you have to convert to get in. Like a club. And once you're part of that club, you have a ticket to heaven, and everyone not in the club is going to hell.
I don't think "islam" refers to an organized religion.This seems to be similar to what I was just saying (above) about Institutions.
-
Hi maxq-
Thanks for your post - I like what you said and agreeI would not use it as a title, and would at least try to use an appendage to ensure I convey that to me, "muslim" is a description of a state of mind that defines my way of life. I do not think it should be thought of as a religion at all.
-
Salam Samir,
I am sorry that you perceive my motives as sneaky tactics, but I disagree that there are any manipulative motives that I harbor. But I support your choice to believe whatever you choose.
I would not know where to begin to answer what you have said here - I find that you have stated your opinions as fact, and that you have accused me of several things without providing evidence to substantiate your accusations (e.g. implying that I am not honorable, that my attempt is to sugar coat, and other statements that you have made). But again, I support you in choosing to believe whatever you will - and simply disagree with your position.How are we using different definition of Muslim? You seem to disagree alot, and therefore are creating your own conversation. My opinions are soley based on your words therefore the proof is in the pudding as they say. Samir, it is sugar coating, as one walks on egg shells for another, it is not out of Love but out of "fear" of "offending" others.
Your point about generalization is a mute point because you say
I don't see much of a difference between trinitarian Christians and muslims who oppress their wives
First of all if you "don't see much of a difference between" a person who believe in son, father and the holy ghost, and a person who abuses his wife, you have serious things to think about brother.
MY definition, a "Muslim" is someone who is DOING IT RIGHT -
Exactly! I agree, it's only you who disagrees.
Yet ryou are the one who started a thread saying you have problems with calling your self a Muslim. hmm
So bro, once again, and Just like Tay(we'll get to that) are showing what I'm saying.You asked "how" I felt that my post got hijacked - I was responding to Tay's kind apology for contributing to getting the thread off track. Although I appreciate you wanting to better understand my comment, I would prefer not to respond within this thread as I believe this will contribute to taking the thread off topic again. If you would like, feel free to contact me via e-mail to discuss.
That is your opinion. I find it to be on topic perfectly. It's simple if you follow the thread, you'll notice that In my first post to Tay I stated 'I've heard the same as you stated in your post from folks who seem to have problems with words. They'll even say things like I don't believe in "god" for say but in a "higher power" etc. It seems to be an escapist mentality.'
A few posts down and we see Tay exhibited just that.
Much like yourself in that sense. Once again, remember I'm just going from your own words.
MY definition, a "Muslim" is someone who is DOING IT RIGHT -
So since you started a whole thread about your problem with muslims and calling yourself a "Muslim" what other conclusion can one have other than (going by your own words and definitions) that you are not doing it right?
-
Salam Phoenix1,
I'm glad I asked. )
Your definition here
By "organized religion" I mean that there is a certain group, with their own title, that share things in common like rituals and books and beliefs.
Is the actual dictionary definition as I posted. And when it comes to that, even this site "free-minds.org" could be considered a "orgazied religion".
Then you added some more here
And you have to convert to get in. Like a club. And once you're part of that club, you have a ticket to heaven, and everyone not in the club is going to hell.I don't think "islam" refers to an organized religion.
With this, I completely agree with you that Islam is no club. )
peace.
-
Another thought
A translation that makes sense to me for verse 319 is that "". This translation makes sense to me because the verse goes on to say THAT THE PEOPLE OF THE BOOK ACCEPTED THIS FACT UNTIL AFTER some point. However, using a translation like "" does not make sense to me here I am not aware that the Christians nor the Jews (the people of the book as I understand) USED the word "ISLAM" to describe their religion - yet this verse says that God's religion was ACCEPTED BY THEM. I believe this is in alignment with my point that it is the MEANING of the word "Islam" that is most relevant, NOT the name/label "Islam".
Any thoughts on what I have said here about 319?
-
Salam Samir,
However, using a translation like "" does not make sense to me here
Who's translation says, "Named" Islam? + I believe you put the quotes around the wrong word.
I believe this is in alignment with my point that it is the MEANING of the word "Islam" that is most relevant, NOT the name/label "Islam".
This is splitting peas. You're using Islam to describe something and as you do, it automaticly becomes a definition(meaning)/label for that thing. Look up the definition of definition and label. You'll see common lines between the two. God is a label for a meaning. Allah is aswell. Both mean the same thing. As said ealier, this is only an issue with those who have problems with words. Instead of God they want to use something else etc. However, it only furthers the escapist menality rather than solve anything useful. peace
-
Hi M_Mehdi-
Who's translation says, "Named" Islam? + I believe you put the quotes around the wrong word.
Sorry for the confusion - I placed the words "God's religion is NAMED "ISLAM"" in square brackets which is a standard way to indicate that one is paraphrasing something. My point is that several translations do not TRANSLATE the word Islam and instead say (e.g.)
Verse 319
Yusuf Ali at least does both The Religion before God is Islam (submission to His Will)
Sher Ali Surely the true religion with ALLAH is Islam
Shakir Surely the (true) religion with Allah is IslamOthers TRANSLATE the word (e.g.)
Progresesive Muslims The system with God is submission
Pickthall Lo! religion with Allah (is) the Surrender (to His Will and Guidance).
Khalifa The only religion approved by GOD is "Submission."This is splitting peas
this is only an issue with those who have problems with words.
However, it only furthers the escapist menality rather than solve anything useful.
I'm not sure what you mean, other than you are possibly trying to demean me and the value of what I am saying.
You're using Islam to describe something and as you do, it automaticly becomes a definition(meaning)/label for that thing.
Having read your response, I am left with the impression that you do not understand the words I have written. And by your response, it is unclear to me where the misunderstanding lies.
-
Salam Samir,
OiVay...
Look bro, please don't go thinking ideas that I'm "trying to demean" you. If I was going to demean, trust you me, you'd know it. jedi
Having read your response, I am left with the impression that you do not understand the words I have written. And by your response, it is unclear to me where the misunderstanding lies.
Then please lets make it clear for you where the "misunderstanding lies"... Lets start with this then. Please let me know if I understand you correctly, then we can move forward. Yes? Good.
You are saying
The meaning of Islam, which is Peaceful Submission to God's Will, as it's meant in 319 to be.. the Religion that God has perscribed for human kind is what's important (hence the people of the Book thing), and not the label or name, islam, which people use to name/label only a certain group of people.
Am I correct so far? -
Salam All~
Just wanted to post my opinion. I am a muslim, call myself a muslim, call my religion Islam, and am proud of it! It doesn't deter me to call myself otherwise, just because some have negative connotations on Islam and muslims. It is also, not my problem that many muslims, who call themselves muslims, and call their religion Islam, are actually people who abuse Islam, religion, and other believers. I am sorry that these muslims, are making such a horrible example of Islam, but it is my duty as a muslim, to keep my head high, with pride, and tell the truth to anyone about the Real Islam, and what it really means to be a muslim. I will never not be a muslim, and I will never leave and stop practicing my religion of Islam. I find it sad, and am disappointed that you look so hard to find reasons otherwise to not call yourself muslim. It is your faith that matters not a name, on the other hand though,....I feel that treading away from the given name of Muslim, is like treading away from Allah. He gives you the Quran, to separate yourself, to know the truth, to be unlike people of the books or the jews. He names you something different. You are a believer of Islam when you follow the Quran, and you are called a muslim when you practice Islam.
But of course, this is of my opinion. I am just proud to be a muslim! I don't give a @@@@ what others think of muslims, I lead by example.
Honor
-
From The Quran's perspective, the primary signification of the terms islam and muslim is as a descriptive term, not a title/name. Anyone who wishes to suggest different, please bring forth your Quranic evidence.
Ironically, speaking to an average non-Muslim, the term "monotheist" is more closer to muslim than Muslim (with a capital).
-
Peace SAbboushi, Anwar, all,
This is why I prefer Quranist and pro-God, for the same reason that you say submissive to God and should continue to say that. We need to de-arabicize the message of the Quran anyway and that it is a start. Say you submit to God and quote the Quran. But the question will come up 'are you Muslim?' And here's the tricky one. I used to say flat out NO, but I do follow the Quran. But I realized that there is a current universal definition of Islam and it has nothing to do with what kind of Muslim you are or that you don't even like that name. Once you mention Muhammad (God bless him) and the Quran, that's it. That's all you need. I wish it would change but maybe one day it will. Until then I say I'm muslim, not because of the Quran but because of a real world defintion.
Exactly. I also used to say that I am not a Muslim, because I don?t want to be confused with the followers of Islam, but then I realized that the word is used as a label for anyone who holds the Quran "sacred". And I am one of them. So if now someone asks me if I am a Muslim? Well, I kinda am. If he asks me if I am a submitter(muslim) to God? I'd say I am struggling to become one. I hope I can become one in time.
Also some members of this forum say that only the ?Quranists? are true Muslims, and the Sunnis, Shias, Ismailis, Ahmedies etc are not Muslims. Actually they are also Muslims, as all of them hold the Quran sacred.
On the other hand, Quranic word ?muslim? doesn?t have anything to do with being a follower of the Quran. One can be a submitter/muslim even without the Quran
http//thequran.wordpress.com/2007/02/26/can-a-non-muslim-be-a-muslim/The word that best describes our approach towards the Quran is ?Quranist?. It is the word used for those who interpret the Quran by the Quran itself without help from additional details.
