Using the word "muslim" in an english conversation

SAbboushi

Hi M_Mehdi

Thanks for your efforts at trying to come to an understanding. I find that the manner in which you try to do so leaves me feeling unsettled - so maybe it is my "issues" that are the problem here. I find that you choose to engage me in an ongoing dialog, yet I feel that our communication is more of an argument instead of a deliberation - I do not see you respond to all of the information that I have provided, but instead, I find that you selectively choose those components that support your point of view and ignore those pieces that seem not to support your point of view. I apologize, but I am uninterested in a dialog with you that attempts to move forward until all the points that have been presented have been examined and commented upon. I also find that your choice of words tend to me judgmental, shaming, provoking and intimidating - which again leaves me uninterested in dialog with you in a public forum. If you would like to continue a dialog with me, then I will again suggest that you contact me via e-mail -- but I am uncomfortable and feel it inappropriate to be focusing upon the MANNER in which we are communicating instead of the TOPIC on this forum (again, MY issue) - and so I apologize to the group for my part in this.

Honor - thanks for your post. I am certainly not trying to make anyone feel badly with my thinking - I am instead trying to unite, as M_Mehdi pointed out earlier - which I find to be a message of the Quran. I find the message of the Quran to be saying "", a message I see in 6159, 1019, 3032, 4213, 4214, 4365, 984.

3032 talks about those who are proud of and rejoice in their own SECT

4213 talks about how it is all the SAME religion given to Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus. AND it tells us to NOT divide the religion.

Honor - you said
I find it sad, and am disappointed that you look so hard to find reasons otherwise to not call yourself muslim.

I understand what you are saying - and it is not my intent to disappoint - I am merely pointing out the REASONS why I have done so IN AN ENGLISH CONVERSATION. And to cite the verses in the Quran that have LED ME to make this choice. You have a different belief and I am OK with that.

Honor - you said
It is your faith that matters not a name,

I completely agree - I have already cited verses that support this statement. However, if the NAME I use PROMOTES and REINFORCES mankind's division into sects, then I am proposing that using that NAME is going AGAINST the command to NOT divide into sects. I am interested in people's feedback on WHETHER OR NOT THEY AGREE THAT USING THE WORD ISLAM IN AN ENGLISH CONVERSATION PROMOTES DIVISION INTO SECTS and feedback on WHETHER MY POSITION THAT THE ARABIC WORD ISLAM COULD NOT HAVE BEEN THE "NAME" THAT WAS USED TO DEFINE THE RELIGION OF GOD THAT WAS GIVEN TO NOAH, AND ABRAHAM... etc as I have cited in verses above including 4213

I may be wrong, but I am left thinking that your position is that "ISLAM" is in fact the NAME given to God's religion, and I am also left thinking that your position is that "MUSLIM" is the NAME given ("given name" you said) to those people who are followers of God's religion you said

I feel that treading away from the given name of Muslim, is like treading away from Allah

to be unlike people of the books or the jews

Just a comment my recollection is that the Quran does NOT group ALL people of the book into one "bucket" - my recollection is that the Quran uses statements like "SOME people of the book" and also speaks of those who ACCEPT the Quran as being from God. And I believe that Jesus and Moses and Abraham and Noah were people of the book. My point is that I would agree with a GENERALIZATION concerning the people of the book, but not an absolute statement like that

Honor, you said
He names you something different. You are a believer of Islam when you follow the Quran, and you are called a muslim when you practice Islam.

This makes me wonder whether you read my earlier posts within this thread, such as

doesn't the Quran say that Abraham named followers "submitters" (227 - this tells me that BEFORE the Quran, a word was used to describe those who followed God's will. Since Muslim is an arabic word, and it seems clear to me that Abraham did not speak the arabic of the Quran, I assume that the word "muslim" in the Quran may have been a TRANSLATION of whatever word(s) Abraham used to describe those who followed God's will. I am arguing that if we CHOOSE to use this word as a LABEL / NOUN instead of an adjective, that this is a divisive practice BECAUSE we are INTENTIONALLY EXCLUDING Christians and Jews and others from the MEANING of that word AND I would argue that we already KNOW that Christians and Jews will REJECT the statement that they are "Muslims" if that word is used as a NOUN/LABEL. But in my experience, they do NOT reject that word when I explain that the word is simply an adjective to mean "one who submits their will to God". How could they reject it if that's what it means? I am not saying that they would use that word to describe themselves - UNLESS THEY WERE SPEAKING ARABIC! To me, this is just like me asking a Christian or a Jew Is Allah your God? In my experience, they are not comfortable with this - EVEN THOUGH Arabic Christians use the word Allah when they refer to God.

My point is that you say
He names you something different. You are a believer of Islam when you follow the Quran, and you are called a muslim when you practice Islam.

I am UNABLE to come to that conclusion BECAUSE of that verse in the Quran (227 - because we are told that the FOLLOWERS of God's religion at the time of ABRAHAM (even BEFORE Judaism and Christianity) were called "SOMETHING" -- which in the Quran, the word used is "muslim", an ARABIC word. My argument is that whatever that "SOMETHING" was used to describe to followers of God's religion during the time of Abraham, I do not see how it COULD POSSIBLY HAVE BEEN THE ARABIC WORD "MUSLIM" - and if for the sake of argument, someone wishes to propose that it MUST have been the arabic word "MUSLIM", then I would ask WHY, IF THE QURAN TELLS US THAT THE SAME MESSAGE WAS DELIVERED THROUGH ALL THE PROPHETS, then WHY IS THERE NO RECORD (at least that I am aware of) OF ANY OF THE OTHER PROPHETS USING THE "GIVEN NAMES" OF "MUSLIM" AND "ISLAM"?

And in 2853, the verse talks about those people who WERE people of the book AND are submitters to God's will ("muslim" is the word used in the Quran). To me, this is the QURAN telling us that there were those followers of God BEFORE the Quran was revealed, and they were DESCRIBED as "submitters" to God's will. I do NOT see that the Quran is TELLING us that the word USED to describe those people was the arabic "given name" "MUSLIM". That is my interpretation and my belief - but I am OK accepting that I have a different belief than yours.

I am truly NOT trying to upset or dissapoint, I am merely trying to arrive at the truth by following the questions that I have.

wakas

You said
From The Quran's perspective, the primary signification of the terms islam and muslim is as a descriptive term, not a title/name. Anyone who wishes to suggest different, please bring forth your Quranic evidence.

Thank you very much for your post - I am in agreement with you.

Hi Fahad

You said
I realized that the word is used as a label for anyone who holds the Quran "sacred".

I very much agree with your statement. I am also suggesting that there is no Quranic evidence to SUPPORT the use of this word (muslim) as a LABEL.

You said
If he asks me if I am a submitter(muslim) to God? I'd say I am struggling to become one. I hope I can become one in time.

I often give this same answer!

You said
On the other hand, Quranic word ?muslim? doesn?t have anything to do with being a follower of the Quran. One can be a submitter/muslim even without the Quran

I COMPLETELY agree with your statement. I have tried to support that position within this thread.

Your link http//thequran.wordpress.com/2007/02/26/can-a-non-muslim-be-a-muslim/ is EXCELLENT - I was very happy to read that post which supports my thinking. Thank you!

progod

Peace,

Dear Sabboushi,

I'm sorry I took so long to respond. I was following the posts but thought there hadn't been anymore because everytime I looked I saw M Mehdi and he seems to have been the last post everytime I checked (except for this one.) No offense Mehdi.

I am in complete agreement with Fahad. I personally realized that the definition also ONLY means the sacredness of the Quran and Muhammad's prophethood (in the times after the Quran), by which we have the Quran. Everyone who believes in that sacredness is called a Muslim, Sunni, Shiite, whatever.

It is because of this definition that I call myself a Muslim as well, but it is more by default. In the old Classical Arabic found in the Quran the word Muslim is generally submissive. One could technically be a Muslim (submissive) to Shaitaan. Context is always provided in the Quran. For instance 319 provides the context that submission (Al-Islam) is to be for God.

I personally belive that we SHOULD translate the messages (which includes the terms) of the Quran into the language of our audience. Otherwise the message gets lost or contorted. The fact that someone prefers the Arabic term Islam to what they CLAIM it means (in this case submission to God which is really not what it means) indicates that Islam doesn't mean what they claim it means with their actions, as they prefer this foreign word to their native words that convey the same concepts, and they don't use them interchangeably. Muslims will proudly say they are Muslim but saying that they are submissive to God (which is what many claim this word means) doesn't hold the same magical, mystical, rooted and righteous ring to them. The hypocrisy and falsehood is all too easy to see. I used to be one of those Muslims, so I know the truth of the matter.

As for Christians and Jews, again they would all claiim to believe in God and to believe in him and be faithful. The fact is that they think that they are the special and chosen of God (many of them, besides the learned seekers (qissessoona))
And they value what they've recieved and their traditons over truth. So when you say Muslim they authomatically think of the Quran and Muhammad , which is natural and this is not apart of their traditions(some maybe even think of this barbarous anti-christian Muslims who commit all sorts of atrocities). Some Christians and Jews are victims of the slander campaigns against the Quran and Muhammad (by Muslims and Non-Muslims alike). Others just plain hate the Quran and Muhamamad for no good reason but out of wrong, prejudice or jealousy. But again not all Christians or Jews are the same in these aspects, there are many good Christians and Jews who just don't know about the Quran and Muhammad, and those Muslims who refuse to speak English when explaining it to them don't help.

Some also are the products of miseducation by their preachers. I love to point out the words of Jesus Christ (God bless him) himself found in the New Testament besides all of those other words which may cause them confusion. But many have been taught to value the words of men whom they do not even know (the 4 gospels) or who are not their prophet and supossed sir/lord (like Paul). The words of Christ are worth much more then all of their words. Even with the old testament much of it has nothing to do with what God's prophets of old (God bless them) ever said. All the while they should be paying attention to the actual quotes of these prophets.

Even for Christian Arabs the word Muslim does not mean submissive to God, whereas the word Allah DOES mean God and the word Salaat DOES mean prayer for them. So Muslim is a classification that we have to accept because of how we accept the sacredness of the Quran and the prophethood of God's last prophet Muhammad (God bless him).

This is why the Quran needs to be de-arabicized, when presented to non-Arabs and either Arabs need to have their langauge brought back up to Quranic par, i.e. Old school par or they need translations, i.e. tafseers in their dialects.
Doing a tafseer/translation in MSA would only cause issues.

So you are right it is counter productive to use the word Muslim and it is devisive. The best you can do is show them that the Quran says that Jesus' words (God bless him) still exist in their Bibles and are the truth inspired by God, and that Moses words (his quotes ) still exist and are inspired by God and need to be followed. The Quran says this and tells them to leave their traditions and embrace the words of their prophets and the last one, i.e. the Quran. However, again if you can explain the Quran to them in a de-arabicized way the better it will go. But with Muslims unfortunately you have to use Arabic as they have not been able to get past this. This is part of the Muslim regression, and is a real problem.

Godbless,
Anwar

M_Mehdi

Salam Samir,

Thanks for your efforts at trying to come to an understanding. I find that the manner in which you try to do so leaves me feeling unsettled - so maybe it is my "issues" that are the problem here.

Yes, apparently.

I find that you choose to engage me in an ongoing dialog, yet I feel that our communication is more of an argument instead of a deliberation -

Yes, it is your own "feeling" alone.

I do not see you respond to all of the information that I have provided, but instead, I find that you selectively choose those components that support your point of view and ignore those pieces that seem not to support your point of view.

Since you said

Quote from SAbboushi on Yesterday at 055032 PM
Having read your response, I am left with the impression that you do not understand the words I have written. And by your response, it is unclear to me where the misunderstanding lies.

I am only taking it a step at a time so you can see where the "misunderstanding lies".

I apologize, but I am uninterested in a dialog with you that attempts to move forward until all the points that have been presented have been examined and commented upon.

In reponse to your post I wrote

'You are saying
The meaning of Islam, which is Peaceful Submission to God's Will, as it's meant in 319 to be.. the Religion that God has perscribed for human kind is what's important (hence the people of the Book thing), and not the label or name, islam, which people use to name/label only a certain group of people.
Am I correct so far?'

So please answer the question.

I also find that your choice of words tend to me judgmental, shaming, provoking and intimidating - which again leaves me uninterested in dialog with you in a public forum.

This is purely your own thoughts and views therefore as you said above, your own "issues".

If you would like to continue a dialog with me, then I will again suggest that you contact me via e-mail -- but I am uncomfortable and feel it inappropriate to be focusing upon the MANNER in which we are communicating instead of the TOPIC on this forum (again, MY issue) - and so I apologize to the group for my part in this.

No, you posted on a public board and it will stay within the board, thank you. If you can not take any questioning of your thoughts why post on a message board. Plus, whether you're "uninterested" or what not, this is a message board, I will continue to post my responses to you or anyone that I feel fit. If you don't like it, then it is your choice to try get me banned from the board, if you feel that I'm am going against forum rules.

With that said...

So once again, here we are

you said

Quote from SAbboushi on Yesterday at 055032 PM
Having read your response, I am left with the impression that you do not understand the words I have written. And by your response, it is unclear to me where the misunderstanding lies.

Here is what I understand from what you are saying
The meaning of Islam, which is Peaceful Submission to God's Will, as it's meant in 319 to be.. the Religion that God has perscribed for human kind is what's important (hence the people of the Book thing), and not the label or name, islam, which people use to name/label only a certain group of people.
Am I correct so far?

I don't agree with your final outcome.. but I do understand your point. So please do not try and use a tired old politician's tactic to tarnish me by saying I choose words that , "choice of words tend to me judgmental, shaming, provoking and intimidating" nope

Salam Anwar,

No worries bro, no offense taken. I'm not like that.

Plus, I know you at least are an honest person who admits that you are a "Quranist" even though I may disagree with you, I respect your honesty in the matter. peace be on you.

Salam Honor,

So well said!!! bravo

honor

Hi M_Mehdi

Thanks for your efforts at trying to come to an understanding. I find that the manner in which you try to do so leaves me feeling unsettled - so maybe it is my "issues" that are the problem here. I find that you choose to engage me in an ongoing dialog, yet I feel that our communication is more of an argument instead of a deliberation - I do not see you respond to all of the information that I have provided, but instead, I find that you selectively choose those components that support your point of view and ignore those pieces that seem not to support your point of view. I apologize, but I am uninterested in a dialog with you that attempts to move forward until all the points that have been presented have been examined and commented upon. I also find that your choice of words tend to me judgmental, shaming, provoking and intimidating - which again leaves me uninterested in dialog with you in a public forum. If you would like to continue a dialog with me, then I will again suggest that you contact me via e-mail -- but I am uncomfortable and feel it inappropriate to be focusing upon the MANNER in which we are communicating instead of the TOPIC on this forum (again, MY issue) - and so I apologize to the group for my part in this.

Honor - thanks for your post. I am certainly not trying to make anyone feel badly with my thinking - I am instead trying to unite, as M_Mehdi pointed out earlier - which I find to be a message of the Quran. I find the message of the Quran to be saying "", a message I see in 6159, 1019, 3032, 4213, 4214, 4365, 984.

3032 talks about those who are proud of and rejoice in their own SECT

4213 talks about how it is all the SAME religion given to Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus. AND it tells us to NOT divide the religion.

Honor - you said I understand what you are saying - and it is not my intent to disappoint - I am merely pointing out the REASONS why I have done so IN AN ENGLISH CONVERSATION. And to cite the verses in the Quran that have LED ME to make this choice. You have a different belief and I am OK with that.

Honor - you said I completely agree - I have already cited verses that support this statement. However, if the NAME I use PROMOTES and REINFORCES mankind's division into sects, then I am proposing that using that NAME is going AGAINST the command to NOT divide into sects. I am interested in people's feedback on WHETHER OR NOT THEY AGREE THAT USING THE WORD ISLAM IN AN ENGLISH CONVERSATION PROMOTES DIVISION INTO SECTS and feedback on WHETHER MY POSITION THAT THE ARABIC WORD ISLAM COULD NOT HAVE BEEN THE "NAME" THAT WAS USED TO DEFINE THE RELIGION OF GOD THAT WAS GIVEN TO NOAH, AND ABRAHAM... etc as I have cited in verses above including 4213

I may be wrong, but I am left thinking that your position is that "ISLAM" is in fact the NAME given to God's religion, and I am also left thinking that your position is that "MUSLIM" is the NAME given ("given name" you said) to those people who are followers of God's religion you said Just a comment my recollection is that the Quran does NOT group ALL people of the book into one "bucket" - my recollection is that the Quran uses statements like "SOME people of the book" and also speaks of those who ACCEPT the Quran as being from God. And I believe that Jesus and Moses and Abraham and Noah were people of the book. My point is that I would agree with a GENERALIZATION concerning the people of the book, but not an absolute statement like that

Honor, you said
This makes me wonder whether you read my earlier posts within this thread, such as
My point is that you say I am UNABLE to come to that conclusion BECAUSE of that verse in the Quran (227 - because we are told that the FOLLOWERS of God's religion at the time of ABRAHAM (even BEFORE Judaism and Christianity) were called "SOMETHING" -- which in the Quran, the word used is "muslim", an ARABIC word. My argument is that whatever that "SOMETHING" was used to describe to followers of God's religion during the time of Abraham, I do not see how it COULD POSSIBLY HAVE BEEN THE ARABIC WORD "MUSLIM" - and if for the sake of argument, someone wishes to propose that it MUST have been the arabic word "MUSLIM", then I would ask WHY, IF THE QURAN TELLS US THAT THE SAME MESSAGE WAS DELIVERED THROUGH ALL THE PROPHETS, then WHY IS THERE NO RECORD (at least that I am aware of) OF ANY OF THE OTHER PROPHETS USING THE "GIVEN NAMES" OF "MUSLIM" AND "ISLAM"?

And in 2853, the verse talks about those people who WERE people of the book AND are submitters to God's will ("muslim" is the word used in the Quran). To me, this is the QURAN telling us that there were those followers of God BEFORE the Quran was revealed, and they were DESCRIBED as "submitters" to God's will. I do NOT see that the Quran is TELLING us that the word USED to describe those people was the arabic "given name" "MUSLIM". That is my interpretation and my belief - but I am OK accepting that I have a different belief than yours.

I am truly NOT trying to upset or dissapoint, I am merely trying to arrive at the truth by following the questions that I have.

wakas

You said
Thank you very much for your post - I am in agreement with you.

Hi Fahad

You said
I very much agree with your statement. I am also suggesting that there is no Quranic evidence to SUPPORT the use of this word (muslim) as a LABEL.

You said
I often give this same answer!

You said
I COMPLETELY agree with your statement. I have tried to support that position within this thread.

Your link http//thequran.wordpress.com/2007/02/26/can-a-non-muslim-be-a-muslim/ is EXCELLENT - I was very happy to read that post which supports my thinking. Thank you!

Salam SAbboushi~

Sorry it has taken me awhile to get back with you.

Surah 2128
"Our Lord! make of us Muslims, bowing to Thy (Will), and of our progeny a people Muslim, bowing to Thy (will); and show us our place for the celebration of (due) rites; and turn unto us (in Mercy); for Thou art the Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.

Surah 2132
And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam."

Surah 2136
Say ye "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord We make no difference between one and another of them And we bow to Allah (in Islam)."

Surah 319-20
19.The Religion before Allah is Islam (submission to His Will) Nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account.

So if they dispute with thee, say "I have submitted My whole self to Allah and so have those who follow me." And say to the People of the Book and to those who are unlearned "Do ye (also) submit yourselves?" If they do, they are in right guidance, but if they turn back, Thy duty is to convey the Message; and in Allah's sight are (all) His servants.

Surah 352
When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah." Said the disciples "We are Allah's helpers We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.

Surah 364
Say "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you That we worship none but Allah. that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back, say ye "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).

Surah 380
Nor would he instruct you to take angels and prophets for Lords and patrons. What! would he bid you to unbelief after ye have bowed your will (To Allah in Islam)?

Surah 384-85
84.Say "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."

85.If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah., never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).

Surah 3102
O ye who believe! Fear Allah as He should be feared, and die not except in a state of Islam.

Surah 4131
To Allah belong all things in the heavens and on earth. Verily we have directed the People of the Book before you, and you (o Muslims) to fear Allah. But if ye deny Him, lo! unto Allah belong all things in the heavens and on earth, and Allah is free of all wants, worthy of all praise.

Surah 5111
"And behold! I inspired the disciples to have faith in Me and Mine Messenger. they said, 'We have faith, and do thou bear witness that we bow to Allah as Muslims'".

Surah 614
Say "Shall I take for my protector any other than Allah, the Maker of the heavens and the earth? And He it is that feedeth but is not fed." Say "Nay! but I am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah (in Islam), and be not thou of the company of those who join gods with Allah."

Surah 6109
They swear their strongest oaths by Allah, that if a (special) sign came to them, by it they would believe. Say "Certainly (all) signs are in the power of Allah. but what will make you (Muslims) realise that (even) if (special) signs came, they will not believe."?

Surah 6125
Those whom Allah (in His plan) willeth to guide,- He openeth their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth to leave straying,- He maketh their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies thus doth Allah (heap) the penalty on those who refuse to believe.

Surah 6163
No partner hath He this am I commanded, and I am the first of those who bow to His will.

Surah 7126
"But thou dost wreak thy vengeance on us simply because we believed in the Signs of our Lord when they reached us! Our Lord! pour out on us patience and constancy, and take our souls unto thee as Muslims (who bow to thy will)!

Surah 974
They swear by Allah that they said nothing (evil), but indeed they uttered blasphemy, and they did it after accepting Islam; and they meditated a plot which they were unable to carry out this revenge of theirs was (their) only return for the bounty with which Allah and His Messenger had enriched them! If they repent, it will be best for them; but if they turn back (to their evil ways), Allah will punish them with a grievous penalty in this life and in the Hereafter They shall have none on earth to protect or help them.

Surah 1072
"But if ye turn back, (consider) no reward have I asked of you my reward is only due from Allah, and I have been commanded to be of those who submit to Allah's will (in Islam)."

Surah 1084
Moses said "O my people! If ye do (really) believe in Allah, then in Him put your trust if ye submit (your will to His)."

Surah 1090
We took the Children of Israel across the sea Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam)."

Surah 1114
"If then they (your false gods) answer not your (call), know ye that this revelation is sent down (replete) with the knowledge of Allah, and that there is no god but He! will ye even then submit (to Islam)?"

Surah 12101
"O my Lord! Thou hast indeed bestowed on me some power, and taught me something of the interpretation of dreams and events,- O Thou Creator of the heavens and the earth! Thou art my Protector in this world and in the Hereafter. Take Thou my soul (at death) as one submitting to Thy will (as a Muslim), and unite me with the righteous."

Surah 1681
It is Allah Who made out of the things He created, some things to give you shade; of the hills He made some for your shelter; He made you garments to protect you from heat, and coats of mail to protect you from your (mutual) violence. Thus does He complete His favours on you, that ye may bow to His Will (in Islam).

Surah 1689
One day We shall raise from all Peoples a witness against them, from amongst themselves and We shall bring thee as a witness against these (thy people) and We have sent down to thee the Book explaining all things, a Guide, a Mercy, and Glad Tidings to Muslims.

Surah 16102
Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.

Surah 21108
Say "What has come to me by inspiration is that your Allah is One Allah. will ye therefore bow to His Will (in Islam)?"

Surah 2278
And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive, (with sincerity and under discipline). He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the cult of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation); that the Messenger may be a witness for you, and ye be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular Prayer, give regular Charity, and hold fast to Allah. He is your Protector - the Best to protect and the Best to help!

Surah 2731
"'Be ye not arrogant against me, but come to me in submission (to the true Religion).'"

Surah 2781
Nor canst thou be a guide to the blind, (to prevent them) from straying only those wilt thou get to listen who believe in Our Signs, and they will bow in Islam.

Surah 2791
For me, I have been commanded to serve the Lord of this city, Him Who has sanctified it and to Whom (belong) all things and I am commanded to be of those who bow in Islam to Allah's Will,-

Surah 2853
And when it is recited to them, they say "We believe therein, for it is the Truth from our Lord indeed we have been Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will) from before this.

Surah 2946
And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury) but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)."

Surah 3335
For Muslim men and women,- for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in Charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise,- for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward.

Surah 3912
"And I am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam."

Surah 3922
Is one whose heart Allah has opened to Islam, so that he has received Enlightenment from Allah, (no better than one hard-hearted)? Woe to those whose hearts are hardened against celebrating the praises of Allah. they are manifestly wandering (in error)!

Surah 4133
Who is better in speech than one who calls (men) to Allah, works righteousness, and says, "I am of those who bow in Islam"?

Surah 4369
(Being) those who have believed in Our Signs and bowed (their wills to Ours) in Islam.

Surah 4615
We have enjoined on man kindness to his parents In pain did his mother bear him, and in pain did she give him birth. The carrying of the (child) to his weaning is (a period of) thirty months. At length, when he reaches the age of full strength and attains forty years, he says, "O my Lord! Grant me that I may be grateful for Thy favour which Thou has bestowed upon me, and upon both my parents, and that I may work righteousness such as Thou mayest approve; and be gracious to me in my issue. Truly have I turned to Thee and truly do I bow (to Thee) in Islam."

Surah 7214
'Amongst us are some that submit their wills (to Allah., and some that swerve from justice. Now those who submit their wills - they have sought out (the path) of right conduct

Quran came in Arabic for a purpose

Surah 122
We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur'an, in order that ye may learn wisdom.

Surah 1337
Thus have We revealed it to be a judgment of authority in Arabic. Wert thou to follow their (vain) desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither protector nor defender against Allah.

Surah 16103
We know indeed that they say, "It is a man that teaches him." The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this is Arabic, pure and clear.

Surah 20113
Thus have We sent this down - an arabic Qur'an - and explained therein in detail some of the warnings, in order that they may fear Allah, or that it may cause their remembrance (of Him).

Surah 26195
In the perspicuous Arabic tongue.

Surah 3928
(It is) a Qur'an in Arabic, without any crookedness (therein) in order that they may guard against Evil.

Surah 413
A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail;- a Qur'an in Arabic, for people who understand;-

Surah 4144
Had We sent this as a Qur'an (in the language) other than Arabic, they would have said "Why are not its verses explained in detail? What! (a Book) not in Arabic and (a Messenger an Arab?" Say "It is a Guide and a Healing to those who believe; and for those who believe not, there is a deafness in their ears, and it is blindness in their (eyes) They are (as it were) being called from a place far distant!"

Surah 427
Thus have We sent by inspiration to thee an Arabic Qur'an that thou mayest warn the Mother of Cities and all around her,- and warn (them) of the Day of Assembly, of which there is no doubt (when) some will be in the Garden, and some in the Blazing Fire.

Surah 433
We have made it a Qur'an in Arabic, that ye may be able to understand (and learn wisdom).

Surah 4612
And before this, was the Book of Moses as a guide and a mercy And this Book confirms (it) in the Arabic tongue; to admonish the unjust, and as Glad Tidings to those who do right.

My advice

Surah 3918
Those who listen to the Word, and follow the best (meaning) in it those are the ones whom Allah has guided, and those are the ones endued with understanding.

P.S.

Abraham and Jesus and Moses may have been mentioned by people of the book, and also by Jews, but they were neither, they were never christians or jews, but muslims. Meaning they submitted to one god, and bowed to his will.

Surah 2130-133
130.And who turns away from the religion of Abraham but such as debase their souls with folly? Him We chose and rendered pure in this world And he will be in the Hereafter in the ranks of the Righteous.

Behold! his Lord said to him "Bow (thy will to Me)" He said "I bow (my will) to the Lord and Cherisher of the Universe."
And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam."
Were ye witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? Behold, he said to his sons "What will ye worship after me?" They said "We shall worship Thy Allah and the Allah of thy fathers, of Abraham, Isma'il and Isaac,- the one (True) Allah. To Him we bow (in Islam)."

Surah 2135
They say "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (To salvation)." Say thou "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with Allah."

Surah 2140
Or do ye say that Abraham, Isma'il Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes were Jews or Christians? Say Do ye know better than Allah. Ah! who is more unjust than those who conceal the testimony they have from Allah. but Allah is not unmindful of what ye do!

I think I explained my reasoning well enough. This is why when you believe in One god, Allah, and submit your will to him, and follow the Quran, and practice the state of Islamyour faith in submission to God as he required by the Quran, then you are a muslim who practices Islam.

Honor

phoenix1

Surah 2278
And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive, (with sincerity and under discipline). He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the cult of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation); that the Messenger may be a witness for you, and ye be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular Prayer, give regular Charity, and hold fast to Allah. He is your Protector - the Best to protect and the Best to help!

peace Honor,

Please tell me who the "you" is in that verse? specifically in the part you highlighted?

honor

Surah 2278
And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive, (with sincerity and under discipline). He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the cult of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation); that the Messenger may be a witness for you, and ye be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular Prayer, give regular Charity, and hold fast to Allah. He is your Protector - the Best to protect and the Best to help!

peace Honor,

Please tell me who the "you" is in that verse? specifically in the part you highlighted?

Salam Phoenix1~

Do you not know? I think you do. If you need me to explain truly I will, but if you want my interpretation for sake of a debate, why don't you just come right out and tell me your opinion. I think my post suffices to eximplfy my meaning. I would be more than happy to explain that surah in detail if need be, but please do not act like you don't know.

Honor

phoenix1

peace
I honestly don't know. Especially if you take Muslim as a proper name. Is Allah calling EVERYONE a Muslim? That doesn't work because I'm pretty sure everyone is not a Muslim and everyone doesn't call themselves Muslim.

honor

peace
I honestly don't know. Especially if you take Muslim as a proper name. Is Allah calling EVERYONE a Muslim? That doesn't work because I'm pretty sure everyone is not a Muslim and everyone doesn't call themselves Muslim.

Salam Phoenix1~

Oh, Okay brother..sorry. Well lets see

If we look at the ayats prior to 2278, we can see, that God is defining himself, his purpose and our purpose.
In the following

Surah 2265
Seest thou not that Allah has made subject to you (men) all that is on the earth, and the ships that sail through the sea by His Command? He withholds the sky (rain) from failing on the earth except by His leave for Allah is Most Kind and Most Merciful to man.

Surah 2266
It is He Who gave you life, will cause you to die, and will again give you life Truly man is a most ungrateful creature!

Surah 2267
To every People have We appointed rites and ceremonies which they must follow let them not then dispute with thee on the matter, but do thou invite (them) to thy Lord for thou art assuredly on the Right Way.

Surah 2268-69
68. If they do wrangle with thee, say, "(Allah) knows best what it is ye are doing."
69. "(Allah) will judge between you on the Day of Judgment concerning the matters in which ye differ."

Surah 2273-78
73. O men! Here is a parable set forth! listen to it! Those on whom, besides Allah, ye call, cannot create (even) a fly, if they all met together for the purpose! and if the fly should snatch away anything from them, they would have no power to release it from the fly. Feeble are those who petition and those whom they petition!

No just estimate have they made of Allah. for Allah is He Who is strong and able to Carry out His Will.
Allah chooses messengers from angels and from men for Allah is He Who hears and sees (all things).
He knows what is before them and what is behind them and to Allah go back all questions (for decision).
O ye who believe! bow down, prostrate yourselves, and adore your Lord; and do good; that ye may prosper.
And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive, (with sincerity and under discipline). He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the cult of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation); that the Messenger may be a witness for you, and ye be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular Prayer, give regular Charity, and hold fast to Allah. He is your Protector - the Best to protect and the Best to help!

Given the following ayats before 2278, I can only conclude, that god is defining himself as one god, defining those that worship more than one god, defining those that believe in just one god and have faith, and then telling us in 2278 that this is the name of the religion for those that believe in just one god and have faith in him. These are all belivers who follow that example, not just muslims who know of islam and the Quran, but born muslims who may be christians, jews etc or have no practicing religion, but believe in one god and sumbit themselves to him. All people are born muslims, its is only when we practice something other than believing in one god, that we transgress from this name, and this religion, because then we are no longer submitting ourselves to one god. Abraham did not belong to a religion prior, but many after him did, and joined with him in Islam, same with Muhammad..he was not a practicing muslim in Islam, but when inspired, followed the way of Islam, and submitted to one god, and others followed.

When God says "he has chosen you" in Surah 2278, he is speaking to all of us who believe in him. Again, any believer who believes and submits to one god, and sets up not partner, idol, protector, intercessor with him. Every person, again is born a muslim, it is only when they transgress or when they previously knew of the Quran, and turn away from it, that they are no longer muslims.

Hope this helped. I seemed to have talked in circles, but I hope you understood what I meant.

Honor

phoenix1

peace
OK. But isn't it true that there are people who call themselves Muslim, but they are not?
And there are people who don't know what the word "muslim" means but do "believe in one God?" (which can mean a variety of different things, but that's not important right now).

ayman

Peace Honor,

Surah 2278
And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive, (with sincerity and under discipline). He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the cult of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation); that the Messenger may be a witness for you, and ye be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular Prayer, give regular Charity, and hold fast to Allah. He is your Protector - the Best to protect and the Best to help!

It is ironic that you refer to 2278 to prove that the words "muslim/islam" are proper names when in fact 2278 proves conclusively that they are common nouns. All one needs is to look objectively at the translation you quote. We can see the word Abraham in there. Notice that Abraham is the same in Hebrew, Arabic and English. Abraham lived long before those languages were invented and he probably spoke Canaanite. The word Abraham is a Canaanite word that was not translated across the ages in all those languages because it is a proper name. Thus, the god didn't translate it from whatever it meant in Canaanite because like all proper names it is a meaningless label. On the other hand, the word "muslim" is Arabic. So those who take it is a proper name and don't translate it are claiming that the followers of Abraham were called some gibberish word in a future language not even invented until a few thousand years later. Of course this is impossible and the god certainly translated the word into the Arabic "al-muslimeen" from whatever it was in Canaanite.

So are we supposed to follow the god or are we supposed to follow those who are emotionally attached to a label?

Please see

http//www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/peacefulness.htm

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace Honor,

Surah 2128
"Our Lord! make of us Muslims, bowing to Thy (Will), and of our progeny a people Muslim, bowing to Thy (will); and show us our place for the celebration of (due) rites; and turn unto us (in Mercy); for Thou art the Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
Surah 5111
"And behold! I inspired the disciples to have faith in Me and Mine Messenger. they said, 'We have faith, and do thou bear witness that we bow to Allah as Muslims'".

Why did the translator had to say "Muslims, bowing to Thy" when the original Arabic has only the word "muslimin lak"? Because he knows that "Muslims (a proper name) to you" is meaningless nonsense. So he was forced to insert the word "muslimin" twice. The first time as an untranslated proper name "Muslims" and the second time as a translated action "bowing to Thy". It is like saying "Muslimin (Cap) muslimin (lower case) lak".

Surah 4131
To Allah belong all things in the heavens and on earth. Verily we have directed the People of the Book before you, and you (o Muslims) to fear Allah. But if ye deny Him, lo! unto Allah belong all things in the heavens and on earth, and Allah is free of all wants, worthy of all praise.
Surah 6109
They swear their strongest oaths by Allah, that if a (special) sign came to them, by it they would believe. Say "Certainly (all) signs are in the power of Allah. but what will make you (Muslims) realise that (even) if (special) signs came, they will not believe."?
Surah 12101
"O my Lord! Thou hast indeed bestowed on me some power, and taught me something of the interpretation of dreams and events,- O Thou Creator of the heavens and the earth! Thou art my Protector in this world and in the Hereafter. Take Thou my soul (at death) as one submitting to Thy will (as a Muslim), and unite me with the righteous."

So when they said "make of us Muslims" they meant "make us a certain proper name". So a person who has in his ID card under religion Muslim (he has the label/proper name) has fullfilled 2128!!!!??

Surah 2132
And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam."

The words "the Faith of Islam" don't exist in the original Arabic. Of course "do not die except Muslims" is meaningless because the translator is positive that someone changing his government issued ID and labeling himself Muslim just before he dies is not what is meant. Therefore he had to change the passage to make it make sense.

Surah 319-20
19.The Religion before Allah is Islam (submission to His Will) Nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account.

Why did the translator insert "(submission to his will)"? Because he knows that "The Religion before Allah is Islam (a proper name/label)" is meaningless nonsense.

So if they dispute with thee, say "I have submitted My whole self to Allah and so have those who follow me." And say to the People of the Book and to those who are unlearned "Do ye (also) submit yourselves?" If they do, they are in right guidance, but if they turn back, Thy duty is to convey the Message; and in Allah's sight are (all) His servants.

Why is "aslama" translated here? How come you don't claim it is a proper name and not translate it? Why do you not say "I have Islam My whole self to Allah" and "Do ye (also) Islam yourselves?"? The answer is clear. You (and the translator) know that the proper name leads to meaningless nonsense. If you are going to claim that something is a proper name, at least try to be consistent!!!

Surah 352
When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah." Said the disciples "We are Allah's helpers We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.

Jesus followers didn't speak Classical Arabic. So is what is meant here "bearing witness that we have labeled ourselves a proper name in a mysterious future language"? Of course this is nonsense. What is meant here is not a label or a proper name but is an action that has meaning and thus should be translated.

Surah 364
Say "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you That we worship none but Allah. that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back, say ye "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).
Surah 7126
"But thou dost wreak thy vengeance on us simply because we believed in the Signs of our Lord when they reached us! Our Lord! pour out on us patience and constancy, and take our souls unto thee as Muslims (who bow to thy will)!

Again, the translator had to insert "(bowing to Allah's Will)" because he knows very well that "bearing witness that we are named Muslims" is meaningless nonsense that doesn't achieve anything.

Surah 2136
Say ye "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord We make no difference between one and another of them And we bow to Allah (in Islam)."
Surah 380
Nor would he instruct you to take angels and prophets for Lords and patrons. What! would he bid you to unbelief after ye have bowed your will (To Allah in Islam)?
Surah 384-85
84.Say "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."
Surah 614
Say "Shall I take for my protector any other than Allah, the Maker of the heavens and the earth? And He it is that feedeth but is not fed." Say "Nay! but I am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah (in Islam), and be not thou of the company of those who join gods with Allah."
Surah 1072
"But if ye turn back, (consider) no reward have I asked of you my reward is only due from Allah, and I have been commanded to be of those who submit to Allah's will (in Islam)."
Surah 1090
We took the Children of Israel across the sea Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam)."
Surah 1114
"If then they (your false gods) answer not your (call), know ye that this revelation is sent down (replete) with the knowledge of Allah, and that there is no god but He! will ye even then submit (to Islam)?"
Surah 1681
It is Allah Who made out of the things He created, some things to give you shade; of the hills He made some for your shelter; He made you garments to protect you from heat, and coats of mail to protect you from your (mutual) violence. Thus does He complete His favours on you, that ye may bow to His Will (in Islam).
Surah 21108
Say "What has come to me by inspiration is that your Allah is One Allah. will ye therefore bow to His Will (in Islam)?"
Surah 2946
And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury) but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)."

Why did the translator translate Muslims in the above passages? Because he knows very well that "would he bid you to unbelief after ye have become Muslims" and "to Allah we are Muslims" is meaningless nonsense. People normally insert in brackets explanation in the target language when they don't translate a word in the original language. It is funny that after translating, the translator did the opposite and went back and inserted an Arabic name Islam in brackets due to his emotional attachment to the label.

85.If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).

Why did the translator insert "submission to Allah" in brackets? Because he knows that "desire a religion other than Islam (a proper name)" is meaningless nonsense.

Surah 3102
O ye who believe! Fear Allah as He should be feared, and die not except in a state of Islam.

What is a "state of any proper name"? Is what is meant here a proper name or a meaningful action?

Surah 6125
Those whom Allah (in His plan) willeth to guide,- He openeth their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth to leave straying,- He maketh their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies thus doth Allah (heap) the penalty on those who refuse to believe.
Surah 3922
Is one whose heart Allah has opened to Islam, so that he has received Enlightenment from Allah, (no better than one hard-hearted)? Woe to those whose hearts are hardened against celebrating the praises of Allah. they are manifestly wandering (in error)!

How does one open his heart to a proper name? Of course this is nonsense.

Surah 6163
No partner hath He this am I commanded, and I am the first of those who bow to His will.

Why was it translated here? Why didn't the translator say "I am the first of the Muslims"? Because being the first/foremost of a proper name is meaningless nonsense. It is like saying "I am the first/foremost of the Johnnys"!!!

Surah 974
They swear by Allah that they said nothing (evil), but indeed they uttered blasphemy, and they did it after accepting Islam; and they meditated a plot which they were unable to carry out this revenge of theirs was (their) only return for the bounty with which Allah and His Messenger had enriched them! If they repent, it will be best for them; but if they turn back (to their evil ways), Allah will punish them with a grievous penalty in this life and in the Hereafter They shall have none on earth to protect or help them.

How do you accept a proper name? Is accepting the proper name what is meant here? Or is a meaningful action required?

Surah 1084
Moses said "O my people! If ye do (really) believe in Allah, then in Him put your trust if ye submit (your will to His)."

Honor, you need to read properly. Here the word "muslimin" is translated. So the translator suddenly decided to make it a common noun and not a proper name. Again, if you are going to make the old fallacious proper name argument, then at least try to be consistent.

Surah 1689
One day We shall raise from all Peoples a witness against them, from amongst themselves and We shall bring thee as a witness against these (thy people) and We have sent down to thee the Book explaining all things, a Guide, a Mercy, and Glad Tidings to Muslims.
Surah 16102
Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.

Is it glad tidings to those who call themselves Muslims (a certain proper name)? Is that what is meant here that we should call our selves Muslims in order to receive these "Glad Tidings"? Of course this is nonsense.

Surah 2731
"'Be ye not arrogant against me, but come to me in submission (to the true Religion).'"

Again, please read properly and be consistent. Even in the translations that you provide to support that Muslim/Islam are proper names that are not to be translated, those words are TRANSLATED. So you are essentially demolishing your own argument with your own hands (and wasting everyone's time in the process).

Surah 2781
Nor canst thou be a guide to the blind, (to prevent them) from straying only those wilt thou get to listen who believe in Our Signs, and they will bow in Islam.
Surah 3912
"And I am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam."
Surah 2791
For me, I have been commanded to serve the Lord of this city, Him Who has sanctified it and to Whom (belong) all things and I am commanded to be of those who bow in Islam to Allah's Will,-
Surah 4133
Who is better in speech than one who calls (men) to Allah, works righteousness, and says, "I am of those who bow in Islam"?
Surah 4369
(Being) those who have believed in Our Signs and bowed (their wills to Ours) in Islam.
Surah 4615
We have enjoined on man kindness to his parents In pain did his mother bear him, and in pain did she give him birth. The carrying of the (child) to his weaning is (a period of) thirty months. At length, when he reaches the age of full strength and attains forty years, he says, "O my Lord! Grant me that I may be grateful for Thy favour which Thou has bestowed upon me, and upon both my parents, and that I may work righteousness such as Thou mayest approve; and be gracious to me in my issue. Truly have I turned to Thee and truly do I bow (to Thee) in Islam."

The Arabic word "Islam" doesn't exist in the original Arabic text. It is funny when translators translate from Arabic and then go back and insert an Arabic word that was not in the original text. Why did they have to do it? Because they know that "only those wilt thou get to listen who believe in Our Signs, and they will be Muslims (a label)" is meaningless nonsense.

Surah 2853
And when it is recited to them, they say "We believe therein, for it is the Truth from our Lord indeed we have been Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will) from before this.

Again, the translator has to insert " bowing to Allah's Will" to make the passage meaningful. He knows that "indeed we have been (labeled) Muslims" is nonsense.

Surah 3335
For Muslim men and women,- for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in Charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise,- for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward.

Why did the author translate "believing" and "true" but not "muslimin"? Aren't all those meaningful adjectives or are they labels?

Surah 7214
'Amongst us are some that submit their wills (to Allah., and some that swerve from justice. Now those who submit their wills - they have sought out (the path) of right conduct

Again, if you are going to argue for something, even if you are not logical, then at least you have got to be consistent. Don't you realize that in the above passage "muslimin" is actually translated and you are in reality demolishing your own argument!!!

Peace,

Ayman

almarh0m

Salaam Brother Ayman

Peace Honor,

Quote from honor on Yesterday at 091909 PM
Surah 2278
And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive, (with sincerity and under discipline). He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the cult of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation); that the Messenger may be a witness for you, and ye be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular Prayer, give regular Charity, and hold fast to Allah. He is your Protector - the Best to protect and the Best to help!

It is ironic that you refer to 2278 to prove that the words "muslim/islam" are proper names when in fact 2278 proves conclusively that they are common nouns. All one needs is to look objectively at the translation you quote. We can see the word Abraham in there. Notice that Abraham is the same in Hebrew, Arabic and English. Abraham lived long before those languages were invented and he probably spoke Canaanite. The word Abraham is a Canaanite word that was not translated across the ages in all those languages because it is a proper name. Thus, the god didn't translate it from whatever it meant in Canaanite because like all proper names it is a meaningless label. On the other hand, the word "muslim" is Arabic. So those who take it is a proper name and don't translate it are claiming that the followers of Abraham were called some gibberish word in a future language not even invented until a few thousand years later. Of course this is impossible and the god certainly translated the word into the Arabic "al-muslimeen" from whatever it was in Canaanite.

So are we supposed to follow the god or are we supposed to follow those who are emotionally attached to a label?

Peace,

Ayman

Could you please enlighten me and others regarding " it is He Who has named you Muslims , both before and in this ( Revelation ) ? Does He Allah ? or Ibrahim ? I have always believed this to be Allah and not Ibrahim reason being the precence of the words '' both before and in this ( Revelation ) . Now . if it was Ibrahim who named such charateristics of his followers in his own time , then we would have no issue with the translation . However , the presence of " and in this ( Revelation ) raises other Questions such as 1) How could have Ibrahim have a say about This ( Revelation / The Quran ?) when he had been dead for a few thousand years ? . 2) Was it an Oversight by Allah The God about what names He should call his Servants and He then promptly consulted Ibrahim in his grave ? Also 4213 seems to rule this out .

Your well informed opinion is greatly anticipated as always and May The Peace of Allah be upon you Brother .

Thank you

almarh0m

ayman

Peace AM,

Could you please enlighten me and others regarding " it is He Who has named you Muslims , both before and in this ( Revelation ) ? Does He Allah ? or Ibrahim ?

The god.

I have always believed this to be Allah and not Ibrahim reason being the precence of the words '' both before and in this ( Revelation ) . Now . if it was Ibrahim who named such charateristics of his followers in his own time , then we would have no issue with the translation . However , the presence of " and in this ( Revelation ) raises other Questions such as 1) How could have Ibrahim have a say about This ( Revelation / The Quran ?) when he had been dead for a few thousand years ? . 2) Was it an Oversight by Allah The God about what names He should call his Servants and He then promptly consulted Ibrahim in his grave ? Also 4213 seems to rule this out .

I agree and I didn't say otherwise. So what is the issue?

Peace,

Ayman

almarh0m

Salam Brother Ayman

Firstly , thank you for your prompt answer . The issue is too many people in this Forum insisting that 2278 says that It was Ibrahim who named us Muslims and Not Allah . They asked opinion of Experts in Arabic such as yourself and Sister Samia then simply disregard them . I know it is their prerogative to believe or dis-believe , I am just curious as to their motive .

Once again , Thank you

almarh0m

Wakas

The issue is too many people in this Forum insisting that 2278 says that It was Ibrahim who named us Muslims and Not Allah .

Who are these "many people in this forum"?

nadeem

Peace Ayman,

For the moment, I believe that you have given ample reason to discard 'muslim' as a proper name. Your examples of prophets being described as 'muslims' despite their language being non-arabic, are hard to refute.

However, the following argument is not as rigid "How does one open his heart to a proper name? Of course this is nonsense."

According the above logic, the following is nonsense as well "I made a palace in my heart for Laura". The sentence does make sense. Additionally "Don't mess with me, or I'll pull an O.J on you!". How can you pull a proper name on someone? (O.J was convicted for murder.)

I hope I was clear.

Nadeem

jonny_k

Peace all,
Reg 2278 first of all i understand tht it was Abraham who firstly TERMED those who submitted to GOD as SUBMITTERS IN HIS LANGUAGE, NOT IN A FUTURE LANAGUAGE WHOSE TERMS WERE YET UNKNOWN AS "AYMAN" HAS RIGHTLY STATED. And Abraham did this THROUGH THE INPIRATION OF GOD so ultimately it's GOD who did it. Man this should be obvious to all by now. WHO HERE STILL DOESNT UNDERSTAND THAT GOD WORKS HIS WILL THROUGH PEOPLE AS WELL? GOD Bless!

progod

Ayman is completely right.

Nadeem your argument is saying that Muslim was the word used in Abraham's language (God bless him), in Jesus language (God bless him) and in every other person in the Quran where the Quran translates what they say using Muslim. You would have to prove that Muslim is a title that goes all the way back to Abraham's language and that the Arabs were using an old Sumerian or Akkadian or cananite word/titile when they said Muslim. Like calling someone a samurai in English to mean warrior.

On that note I believe that that passage in Chapter 22 is Abraham's saying, simah means 'character' and sammaa can mean 'to name' or 'to characterize'.

So when the Quran says ' alladhee (the one who) sammaaakum(he characterized you) al-muslimeena (as the submissve ones) min qabl (before) wa fee hadhaa ( in this ) I see it as 'the one who characterized you (not named) you as the submissive ones (the declension of 'muslimoona to muslimeena allows the 'as&#039 before, in this book (the waw can also be understood as our english comma of clarification). All we have to do is refference back to Chapter 2 where Abraham says ' Make my following/progeny a nation submissive to you . . . '

Godbless,
Anwar

jonny_k

Peace "progod",
I agree with you here. Especially reg the term "sama/ism" the latter root of which GOD also uses to mean His attributes or characteristics which are ofcourse also not proper names eg raheem(merciful) or kabeer(great), etc. GOD Bless!

p.s You dont seem like a hadith follower although from ur PM posts it gave me the impression since you ended some of ur statements with "..in the language of the Quran AND THE HADITH" as if to signify hadith as well. Why was tht?

nadeem

Peace Anwar,

You have misunderstood me. I do agree with Ayman, as you will be able to deduct from my first paragraph if read more closely. Though I see where the ambiguity has cracked its way in.

My intentions were none other than to inform Ayman that one of his many arguments were illogical, at least how it appeared to me. The remainder of his arguments I accept.

I hope this has cleared up the misconception.

Nadeem