Ramadan? 2007
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Peace bro Damon, all,
Let's sort out what "shahr" means in the context of 2185.
The evidences I have encountered in favor of "shahr" meaning moon in that context are as follows
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Archeological evidence from around the time of revelation of the Qur'aan indicates that the Arabic word used for month around that period was "warakh". Brother Ayman has the reference for this.
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In 2185 we hear about WITNESSING the "shahr". It is impossible to WITNESS a man made arbitrary time period called "month".
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There is no authentic evidence that there was a "pre-qur'aanic" month named Ramadhan. All our information regarding the pre-Islamic calendar is derived from works composed later than the 8th century AD.
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According to Classical Arabic dictionaries, the Arabs used to call the moon "shahr"; the term "shahr" did not directly mean month.
Constructive criticism and comments welcome.
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I THINK, IT HAS GOT LAWS IN THERE WHICH CAN BE APPLIED EVEN IN SPACE Br. and its nothing to do with hunting expeditions.
Peace,
I agree that the Quran must and can be applied in any situation. But Mankind is made to live on PLANETS and not in spaceships or space stations. These are temporary situations. The main goal of space-exploration is exploring and find planets we can cultivate. Thus we will create a new wildlife ourselves, and God refers with these verses that we must always observe the natural cycles so we can use them in the best way.
I do understand and agree 100% with your concept. Islam is a Universal Deen that can even be applied on the Enterprise. I try to uphold a scientific logical and socially developing Islam. The focus is on Mankind and its development, not on God and pleasing Him.
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<snip>
Anyway, there are still many, many questions I have concerning when to fast and for how long. I started investigating these verses (2183-187) a few days ago because I wanted to find out what it is I should be doing for certain.<snip>
Peace Damon,
Will it be a logical understanding to relate the verse 2183-187 to the injunction/abstain from having sex with female partner who is undergoing menstrual cycle?
2187 "..and eat and drink until the thread the white appears from the thread the black from the dawn..." is permitted/able to resume the sexual activity once the female partner has completed the menstrual cycle.
Just my 2 cents...
Peace.
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Salaam Damon, all,
I do appreciate that you are asking for my input on this. However, I am Sunni and therefore, my opinion is the same as what Sunnis believe. I believe that the Sunni timing is totally consistent with the month of Ramadan and that there is nothing linguistically that would make one think otherwise.
Here is how I would make the Sunni/ Shia/Ibadhi case, since all agree here.
1- What do we do to determine timing?
Ahilla= new moons. If one refuses that meaning of Ahilla, then the conceptual meaning of Hilal is= announcing beginning. Since the Qur'an talks about the sun and moon as the tools of timing, and the sun does not announce beginning except for a day, then the new moon is the one that announces the beginning of the month. Therefore, the Qur'an tells us that timing is dependant on new moons and not full moons.2189 Yasaloonaka aaan Al Ahillata, Qul hiya mawaqeetu lilnasi walhajj= They ask you about the new moons, say they are timings for the people and Hajj.
2- Shahr Sure the dictionaries used the meaning of full moon, but they also used the meaning of month. Conceptually, the word Shahr means apparence or becoming apparent. so, the moon is very apparent when it is full, but it is also apparent at other times of the month. If one understands Shahr as apparence of the moon, then the Shahr can be the time between apparence and re-apparence of the moon and that is a month.
3- All the uses of the word SHAhR in the Qur'an are consistent with month and not a day when the moon is full. It occurred 21 times and you will have to push it really hard to make it full moon.
4- One use is this
936 Inna AAiddata Ashshuhoor AAinda Allahi itha Asahr= The number of plural of Shahr at Allah's is twelve.
So, if Shahr is full moon, then what does it mean to say the number of full moons are twelve? Nothing. If one is to say that the year has twelve full moons, then that is wrong, because some years may have more full moons. The more probably thingis that it means that the year is 12 lunar months.5- Ramadan= Fine it means heat, but that does not have to mean that Ramadan is not a name of a month, or that it has to come at the time of heat. Ramadan as a month started as the month in the middle of heat, but when people stopped adding a month every few years, the month retained the name but lost the description. What is the proof of removing the additional month?
Annasiiu Ziyadatun filkufr= The delay is increase in rejection.
6- Shahru Ramadan as meaning= full moon of scorching heat is poor grammar, and if not poor grammar, then it is poor Arabic. Why? because a statement like this would be expected to either retain the generic Ramadan= scording heat, butbe Shahrun Ramadanun or Shahru Ramadanu because the descriptor, Ramadan, has to follow the entity described. Otehrwise the generic needs to become non generic as in
A) Shahru Ramadana= If Ramadan is a proper name (name of month) and therefore non generic.
B) Sharu Alramadan= The addition of the AL makes the generic become specific and therefore if means the heat, but the heat in which the addressed people recognise easily.Since the Al is not used, then it is the more likely explanation that Ramadan was used as a proper name and not a descriptive name. This proper name started descriptive, but then lost the description as the additional lunar month was removed.
7- The issue of witnessing. Since you depend on the apparence of the moon, then it is witnessing that is involved and not counting of numbers. That is where the witnessing comes.
I am not entering this discussion for debate, just for clarification and therefore, I will not respond to the responses to my argument, mainly because it does not matter to me, since I am not a Qur'an only person.
Take care all and have a great day.
Hussein
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Peace,
I believe shahrun stands for a number of things. I looked at muheetul-muheet and it says
- a scholar, a savant (&aalimun)
- The likes of the shavings of the nails, toe nails, hoof etc. (qulaamatul-dhufuri)
- The new moon, half moon or crescent moon (al-hilaalu)
- The moon (al-qamaru).
- When the moon appears to when it is close to completion (of the lunar cylce) (aw huwa idha dhahara wa qaaraba al-kamaala)
6.The known/recognized number of days (for it to complete it's cycle) because it is made well-known by the moon. (al-&adaul-ma&roofu min al-ayaami li'annahu yush-haru bil-qamari)
So all these can mean shahr. In the Quran we are given examples of where we have for 2 months and if we cannot we can subsitute it for the feeding of 30 people. And we are told that to compensate for not being able to withstand fasting we can feed one person for each day we miss the fast.
Here is a quote from www.quranists.org
This, through logical consideration means that the Koran obviously equates 2 months with 60 days, and 1 month with 30 days. Some may think that 589 contradicts this equation. It says that the compensation for breaking deliberate oaths is to serve 10 needy individuals from the best of what you would feed a family member of yours, to clothe these 10 individuals, or to free someone from bondage. If none of these is within the capability of the individual then he is to fast for 3 days. There is no compensation for this fasting, this is the last thing that can be accepted of him. But why isn't there a one-to-one relationship here between feeding individuals and fasting? Because the fasting here is "the compensation for your oaths when you swear." which is stated in this passage after the fasting is mentioned. So whereas God does consider a month of daily fasting to be equal to feeding 30 people, this fasting for 3 days has no compensation, and therefore is not equal to the feeding of 10 people mentioned before but only to the breaking of one's oath as the passage clearly states. All other passages keep in line with this 1 to 1 relationship of compensation for fasting and have no such clauses. Because of this clause it would be wise to say that God put this clause here for a reason. Considering the possiblity that one action may have completely different worth when treated as a remedy to different distinct actions. That actions can't always be measured as numbers makes this clause sit better with me. Afterall, it is through having a better understanding of reality (God's works) that the Quran will make more sense to us.
A month, or shahr in Arabic can be 29 or 30 days but the Quran prefers 30 according to the 1/1 relationship implied in its verses where there aren't any clauses to indicate otherwise.
The way I see it in chapter two shahru ramadaana can validly be seen as shahrun ramadaanan using the pronunciation of tajweez. and allahdee unzila feehi al-qur'aan can easlily be seen as al-qur'aanu alladhee unzila feehi. In which case ramadaanun can be seen as saifun or summer i.e. any time of intense and/or constant heat, which is summer. So I fast for 30 days in the Summer. However it was also the name of a pre-Islamic calendar month. That calendar was changed when the Muslims realized that the Quran disallows the addition of a 13th month. So they chose to continue to follow the actually phases of the moon instead of the general idea of the number of days that equal the completion of a lunar cycle. 29 or 30.
They also continue to see nightfall as the beginning of the day instead of what the Quran says about the night not being able to precede the daylight.To each his own. God knows our intentions when we fast and if we are being sincere with Him, His book and the minds he gave us. I'm sure he accepts the fasting of anyone who sincerely fasts for Him.
also, Damon. when a root has a doubled letter like Samma or shadda or any other letter than the second radical will have a shadda on it, indicating that it is doubled. weak letters in the middle radical and the last radical are subject to truncation (reduced to a waw, damma or kasrah in writing) when they are subjunctive, in a command or come behind lan or lam.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace Phil,
Will it be a logical understanding to relate the verse 2183-187 to the injunction/abstain from having sex with female partner who is undergoing menstrual cycle?
2187 "..and eat and drink until the thread the white appears from the thread the black from the dawn..." is permitted/able to resume the sexual activity once the female partner has completed the menstrual cycle.
Just my 2 cents...
Peace.
Sorry for the confusion Phil. When I was asking how long does the abstenance last, I didn't mean how long during the day. I meant does it last for 7 days, 10 days or 30 days. I am already of the understanding that the fast/abstenance runs from dawn to night.
Also, I believe GOD addresses the issue you have raised elsewhere in the quran. I can't recall it off the top of my head, but GOD instructs the prophet to tell those who ask about menstruating that it is a condition of discomfort for them and a cleansing process and that we should sexually visit them after their cleansing process is complete.
Peace,
Damon. -
Salaam Hussein,
Salaam Damon, all,
I do appreciate that you are asking for my input on this. However, I am Sunni and therefore, my opinion is the same as what Sunnis believe.
Yes, I know that you are Sunni Muslim Hussein. I still wanted you to give your input based upon your Linguistic understanding of the verses we are discussing.
I believe that the Sunni timing is totally consistent with the month of Ramadan and that there is nothing linguistically that would make one think otherwise.
Here is how I would make the Sunni/ Shia/Ibadhi case, since all agree here.
1- What do we do to determine timing?
Ahilla= new moons. If one refuses that meaning of Ahilla, then the conceptual meaning of Hilal is= announcing beginning. Since the Qur'an talks about the sun and moon as the tools of timing, and the sun does not announce beginning except for a day, then the new moon is the one that announces the beginning of the month. Therefore, the Qur'an tells us that timing is dependant on new moons and not full moons.2189 Yasaloonaka aaan Al Ahillata, Qul hiya mawaqeetu lilnasi walhajj= They ask you about the new moons, say they are timings for the people and Hajj.
2- Shahr Sure the dictionaries used the meaning of full moon, but they also used the meaning of month. Conceptually, the word Shahr means apparence or becoming apparent. so, the moon is very apparent when it is full, but it is also apparent at other times of the month. If one understands Shahr as apparence of the moon, then the Shahr can be the time between apparence and re-apparence of the moon and that is a month.
3- All the uses of the word SHAhR in the Qur'an are consistent with month and not a day when the moon is full. It occurred 21 times and you will have to push it really hard to make it full moon.
4- One use is this
936 Inna AAiddata Ashshuhoor AAinda Allahi itha Asahr= The number of plural of Shahr at Allah's is twelve.
So, if Shahr is full moon, then what does it mean to say the number of full moons are twelve? Nothing. If one is to say that the year has twelve full moons, then that is wrong, because some years may have more full moons. The more probably thingis that it means that the year is 12 lunar months.5- Ramadan= Fine it means heat, but that does not have to mean that Ramadan is not a name of a month, or that it has to come at the time of heat. Ramadan as a month started as the month in the middle of heat, but when people stopped adding a month every few years, the month retained the name but lost the description. What is the proof of removing the additional month?
Annasiiu Ziyadatun filkufr= The delay is increase in rejection.
6- Shahru Ramadan as meaning= full moon of scorching heat is poor grammar, and if not poor grammar, then it is poor Arabic. Why? because a statement like this would be expected to either retain the generic Ramadan= scording heat, butbe Shahrun Ramadanun or Shahru Ramadanu because the descriptor, Ramadan, has to follow the entity described. Otehrwise the generic needs to become non generic as in
A) Shahru Ramadana= If Ramadan is a proper name (name of month) and therefore non generic.
B) Sharu Alramadan= The addition of the AL makes the generic become specific and therefore if means the heat, but the heat in which the addressed people recognise easily.Since the Al is not used, then it is the more likely explanation that Ramadan was used as a proper name and not a descriptive name. This proper name started descriptive, but then lost the description as the additional lunar month was removed.
7- The issue of witnessing. Since you depend on the apparence of the moon, then it is witnessing that is involved and not counting of numbers. That is where the witnessing comes.
I am not entering this discussion for debate, just for clarification and therefore, I will not respond to the responses to my argument, mainly because it does not matter to me, since I am not a Qur'an only person.
Take care all and have a great day.
Hussein
This is what I was hoping that you would contribute to the discussion Hussein. Thank You for the input.
Salaam,
Damon. -
Peace all,
Few points
- Ahillla DOES NOT mean "new moons", but means "CRESCENT MOONS", which can be both waxing or waning crescents.
There are 24-26 crescent moons in a solar year, hence it is IMPOSSIBLE to time a 29-30 day cycle using crescents. For example the number of days between waxing and waning crescent moon would be 24 and the number of days between waning and waxing crescent would be 5-6 days. The God does not say "new crescent moons", He just says "crescent moons"
2189 They ask you regarding the crescent moons, say 'They are a timing mechanism for the people as well as for the hajj.'
The hajj is supposed to be for 10 days (combining 2203 with 2196), and THE ONLY WAY crescent moon can be used to time the hajj would be if the hajj started from the full-moon and ended with onset of waning crescent which is exactly 10 days. If the hajj started with the new crescent then there is no way 10 days can be counted because the number of days between the new crescent and the full-moon is 14 days.
Note that the SAME phrase "ayyamin ma3doodatin" is used for hajj and fasting. According to Classical Arabic dictionary, "ma3doodatin" is used for any number that can be counted on the fingers of both hands, hence "ayyamin ma3doodatin" would be 3-10 days (ayyamin means more than 2 days). We hear to complete the count in 2185 and thus fasting would be for 10 days because the complete count of "ma3doodatin" is 10 days.
- The word "shahr" DOES NOT mean "30 day periods" according to ANY Classical Arabic dictionary. The God nowhere says that feeding one person will be the compensation for one day of fasting. Assuming as such from 584, in which we hear EQUIVALENCE of not being able to fast for "shahrain" (2 shahr) being feeding 60 people, would be CONJECTURE. Moreover, how can one time a 30 day period consistently using crescent moons ?
Firstly, the word "shahrain" comes BEFORE the mention of 60 people in 584; considering 60 people and then saying "shahrain" must be 60 days is ILLOGICAL. Because "shahrain" is mentioned BEFORE the mention of 60 people, it already has a certain meaning independent of the "60 people", hence "60 people" cannot be used to deduce the meaning of "shahrain".
Secondly, the equivalence is feeding of 60 people and fasting for "shahrain"; assuming from this that "shahrain" must be 60 days is just a conjecture. The only way that would have been possible is if The God had said anywhere in the Qur'aan that feeding one person is compensation for not fasting one day, or feeding 60 people is compensation for not fasting 60 days, but He does not say that.
Thirdly, feeding 60 people is NOT compensation for not fasting for "shahrain", but is a compensation for estranging one's wife per 583, IF one cannot fast for "shahrain" for estranging one's wife; both fasting for "shahrain", and feeding 60 people are compensation for estranging one's wife.
Fourthly, 589 and 583-4 are similar in the sense that in both places, feeding people is not compensation for not fasting, and fasting for a few days is not compensation for not feeding people, but BOTH actions are compensation for something else. Hence, if feeding 60 people is equivalent to fasting for "shahrain" according to 584 and from this it is deduced that feeding one person = fasting one day (which itself is faulty logic because no "days" were mentioned in 584), then using the SAME logic, according to 589 feeding 3 people would be equivalent to fasting 10 days which gives an equation of one person = 3.33....... days. Hence it cannot be said that according to the Qur'aan, feeding one person is always equivalent to fasting one day.
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According to Classical Arabic dictionaries, the primary meaning of the word "shahr" is "something obvious", "something public", "something wide", and "something bright". Hence, all the etymology of the Arabic word "shahr" indisputably and clearly points to it being the obvious, wide, round, and bright full-moon and not the thin, unobvious, and dim crescent moon.
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In 936 we hear about the "COUNT" of "shuhoor" in God's record, and NOT the "number". If it is understood as the "number" of "months" then there have been billions of months since the creation of earth. "3aiddat" means "count"; for "number" the corresponding Arabic word is "3adad". Thus 936 mentions the "count" of "full-moons" being 12 in God's system, out of which four are restricted. This means that we are to count only 12 full-moons in a year and ignore the 13th full-moon when it occurs. This would automatically readjust the count and the full-moon of "ramadhan" would always be the first moon after the summer solstice. It is a very clear and surprisingly simple mechanism. All it requires is that we put our faith in The God and count only 12 full-moons in a year despite that we occasionally see 13. Only in this system from the great reading do we count EXACTLY 12 full moons EVERY SINGLE year and it is in-sync with the seasons.
936 The count of the full-moons with God is twelve full-moons in God's record the day He created the heavens and the Earth
- Shahru ramadhan meaning "full-moon of scorching heat" is grammatically correct. Scorching heat starts with the summer solstice and "shahru ramadhan" is the first full-moon that occurs after the summer solstice, thus being full-moon of scorching heat. "Ramadhan"/scorching heat is not description of the "full-moon", and is also not the proper name of a month because
A. the meaning of "ramadhan" fits in the context and
B. there is no authentic evidence of existence of a month by the name of Ramadhan in pre-qur'aanic times.Just because the phrase is "shahru ramadhana" DOES NOT automatically mean that "ramadhan" is a proper name; it can be a common noun too. If the meaning "scorching heat" would not have fit the context, only then it would have been a proper name, but as we can clearly see, the meaning fits the context perfectly, so it is a common noun in the context of its usage in the Qur'aan.
- The issue of witnessing per 2185 actually PROVES that "shahr" can only mean moon and not month. It is IMPOSSIBLE to witness a man made arbitrary time period called "month".
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Peace Anwar,
also, Damon. when a root has a doubled letter like Samma or shadda or any other letter than the second radical will have a shadda on it, indicating that it is doubled. weak letters in the middle radical and the last radical are subject to truncation (reduced to a waw, damma or kasrah in writing) when they are subjunctive, in a command or come behind lan or lam.
Thanx Bruh. After Samia's clarification, I went and studied the entire chapter of my Grammar book discussing what happens to all weak verbs when they are used in their different forms. I am glad she stepped in too. It usually takes me only one time to go over any grammatical info and I'll remember it from then on. After studying it thoroughly last night, I know now that verbs with waw or yaa as the second root letter change pretty significantly in the Jussive, and these changes affect both the spelling (which was my hangup during this little episode), as well as the pronounciation.
In the jussive, the third root letter (which in this case is the letter meem) will have a sukun above it, which means the hollow verb will now have a short vowel in the middle (which was my other hangup).
GOD Willing, I am going to study tonight all that I can concerning the irregular verbs with doubled root letters.
Peace,
Damon. -
Peace Tanveer,
Peace bro Damon, all,
Let's sort out what "shahr" means in the context of 2185.
The evidences I have encountered in favor of "shahr" meaning moon in that context are as follows
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Archeological evidence from around the time of revelation of the Qur'aan indicates that the Arabic word used for month around that period was "warakh". Brother Ayman has the reference for this.
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In 2185 we hear about WITNESSING the "shahr". It is impossible to WITNESS a man made arbitrary time period called "month".
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There is no authentic evidence that there was a "pre-qur'aanic" month named Ramadhan. All our information regarding the pre-Islamic calendar is derived from works composed later than the 8th century AD.
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According to Classical Arabic dictionaries, the Arabs used to call the moon "shahr"; the term "shahr" did not directly mean month.
Constructive criticism and comments welcome.
I want to try and use the "Quran Alone" to see if I can get a handle on the verses we are discussing.
To decipher which meaning to apply to Shahr (month, announcement or moon), I took the process of elimination approach.
I decided against defining "shahr" as moon after I looked at some verses in which "sun" and "moon" were juxtaposed to one another. Two good examples of this are 677-78 and 911-2. From these and a couple of other verses, I thought when GOD wished to talk specifically about the moon, He uses the noun Qamar to describe it. So that left me with "announcement" and "month".
It is true that He uses "shahr" for month very consistently throughout the quran, however, I haven't decided that the jury is in on this word just yet because of another word mentioned in 2185. It's the word shahida (witnessed/was present).
I agree with you that it almost sounds absurd that someone can WITNESS a month, be it a man-made month or not. But I don't believe it has anything to do with moon either. When we Sight or See the moon, we are using our eyes/eyesight to do this. The two root words and their derivatives that are used in the quran to describe this act are BaSsaRa and Ra'a. Here are some verse in which these words are used for meaning to physically see/sight/spot something
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2(17,55,96,110,144,165,166,233,237243,246,258,259,265),
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3(13,15,20,23,137,143,156,163),
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21(3,30,36,37,44),
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34(6,9,11,27,31,33,51)
There are many, many verses where these words are used.
So 2185 does not say faman BaSsara minkum ash-Shahr, nor does it say faman Raa'a minkum ash-Shahr. Because of this, I am leaning away from it being the moon as well. And also, I don't believe one WITNESSES the moon. One SEES/SIGHTS it.
So I am wondering if "shahr" is a publicy made announcement after all. I am wondering this because of the word shahida. THIS word not only means to witness. It also means to be present or to bear testimony/testify. One can be present during OR testify/bear testimony to any "Public Announcement" that has been made.
To see if this makes sense, we should look at the other defintions that are associated with "RaMiDda".
Here they are
Distress/disquiet/grieve, to be thin and/or sharp, to be pained, to be agitated by a tendency to vomit (heaving of the soul or stomach).
I think we should also carefully look at ALL of the verses of the quran that talk about fasting/abstaining to see if we are missing any important pieces of this puzzle.
I am not saying I myself am 100% fixed on this. I am throwing it in the mix for observation and feedback.
Salaam,
Damon. -
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Peace Damon, all,
According to Lane's Lexicon, Book 1, page 1609
SHAHIDA = He told, or gave information of, what he had witnessed, or seen, or beheld with his eye.
(Shiin-ha-daal in PRL, LL, V4, page 333 at http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm)
Does not rule out "shahr" meaning "moon" and specifically "full-moon".
"Qamar" is used to refer to the moon in general, whereas "shahr" refers to a stage of the moon, and most likely the "full-moon". The primary meaning of the word "shahr" is "something obvious", "something public", "something wide", and "something bright". Hence, all the etymology of the Arabic word "shahr" indisputably and clearly points to it being the obvious, wide, and bright full-moon.
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Peace Damon, all,
Some Qur'aanic examples of "ashhadoo"/"shuhadaa" involving seeing with one's eyes
2133 Or were you witnesses (shuhadaa) when death came to Jacob and he told his sons "Who shall you serve after I am gone?", they said "Your god, and the god of your fathers Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac; One god and to Him we submit."
One witnesses someone dying by seeing someone die.
2282 O you who believe, if you borrow for a future period, then you shall record it. And let a scribe of justice record it for you; and let not the scribe refuse to record as God has taught him. Let him record and let the person who is borrowing dictate to him, and let him be aware of God, and let him not reduce from it anything. If the one who is borrowing is immature or weak or he cannot dictate himself, then let his guardian dictate with justice; and bring two witnesses from amongst your men; if there are not two men, then a man and two women from whom you will accept their testimony, so that if one of them becomes occupied, then the one can reminds the other. And let the witnesses not refuse to come if they are called. And do not fail to record it no matter how small or large until its maturity. That is more just with God and better for the testimony, and better that you do not have doubts; except if it is a trade to be done on the spot between you, then there is no sin upon you if you do not record it. And take witness (ashhadoo) if you trade. No scribe shall be harmed nor any witness; for if you do so then it is vileness on your part, and be aware of God and God teaches you and God is aware of all things.
One is a witness to a trade contract by seeing it.
46 And test the orphans when they reach puberty, then, if you have determined from them comprehension, then give them their wealth, and do not deliberately consume it wastefully or quickly before they grow up. And whoever is rich, then let him not claim anything, and if he is poor then let him consume only in goodness. If you give to them their wealth, then make a witness for them (ashhadoo), and God is enough for Reckoning.
One witnesses giving wealth to someone by seeing it.
415 And those women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses (astashhadoo) over them from amongst you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death terminates their lives, or God makes for them a way out.
One witnesses the act of lewdness by seeing it.
Etc. Etc.
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Peace,
shahada doesn't have to be just to witness with your eyes. In Arabic you can say that a country witnessed an event or that a year witnessed some happening that happened within it. shahada means to witness in the sense of being able to attest to the event, happening etc.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace Tanveer, ProGod, all,
Peace,
shahada doesn't have to be just to witness with your eyes. In Arabic you can say that a country witnessed an event or that a year witnessed some happening that happened within it. shahada means to witness in the sense of being able to attest to the event, happening etc.
Godbless,
AnwarYes, This is what I was trying to get at. I am also looking at the fact that the word used in 2185 (shahida) is in its Basic Root Form (1st form, past tense) meaning he Witnessed or he was present.
I believe the sighting of the moon would more logically be described as faman BaSsaRa minkum ash-Shahr or faman Raa'a minkum ash-Shahr in the quran since these two words are used in the quran to specifically describe seeing something with one's eyes. Whereas shahida IS NOT confined to seeing with the eyes, but has more to do with being present during any given activity or event and be able to bear witness/give testimony to the happening of said event.
Also, I believe a few of the examples Brother Tanveer gave in his post can be interpreted either way. 2133 can be interpreted as shuhadaa were you PRESENT when death came to Jacob....
2282 and 46 can both be understood as ashhadoo take another to be present/call upon anyone to be present....
Peace,
Damon. -
Salaam Damon
Few comments
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It's true that the verb "shahida" is perfect (past tense); but that's just the pattern. In a conditional sentence it is a choice to use a perfect or imperfect pattern for the verb, and they both have a present, or even a future meaning.
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I think you mean "abSara" not "baSSara" (baSsara means explain).; derived from BaSar sight. It has a meaning of deep knowledge and understanding. In the qur'aan the verb and its derivatives are used to mean "comprehend, understand "afalaa tubSiruun?" 2872. It also means to see in opposition to being blind, also used in the qur'aan in this meaning1120;1942...
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The only possible one is "ra'aa", yet this is not exclusively to "see". It is also used as "to think", no wonder it is derived from the noun "ra'y opinion". Even when it is used as "to see", it is not necessarily at the time of the event "alam tara kaifa fa3ala rabbuka bi aS7aabil feel?"
So the verb "shaahda" is the best choice it has the meaning of "to see= ra'aa" but has the component of the present event, and no opinions involved, no understanding required.
I hope I am clear...any confusion please ask.
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Salaam everybody,
If we were to go to Lane's Lexicon and look up BaSsaRa and Raa'a we would see that these two words have the meaning of using one's eyesight to physically look at or gaze upon something. One does not witness the moon. They either see it (with the eyesight) or they don't. Besides, the new moon lasts in its new form for the first 3 days anyway. You can see it during any of those three days and anyone from anywhere within your location can also see it. So, it is not a question of who can see it or if one can see it because it is apparent for all to see. However, one witnesses something
that many others have not witnessed themselves. That is why they are called upon to act as witnesses, because they have information to share with those who are not privy to the information.Also, part of being a witness or witnessing something is to also hear what is going on as well. One cannot hear the moon. You can only look at it/gaze upon it. But to witness something means much, much more than seeing a thing. It means you also hear what is being said and by whom. You can hear another parties reactions to what was said by the first party. If you witnessed an altercation between two people, you can see the aggressor shove someone as well as hear him threaten that someone. How else can one pass on information to another (according to one of the definitions for shahida in Lane's Lexicon). Your being present at the time of the altercation allows you to act as a witness in court.
As I said before, I am not saying that this is the understanding that I have wholeheartedly accepted, but I do believe it is worth considering and should be looked into a little further before rejecting the idea altogether.
So let me try to put it together. We have three words in 2185 that are important for us to understand.
1). RamaDdan
2). Shahr
3). ShahidaRemember, RaMiDda doesn't just mean intensely hot. It also have the meanings of Distress/disquiet/grieve, to be thin and/or sharp, to be pained, to be agitated by a tendency to vomit (heaving of the soul or stomach).
So ShahruRamaDdaan can possibly mean either a notorious/apparent/manifest/well known pain or grief or distress OR a grieving/stressful condition/pain that is publicly announced (such as the terrible times that we are living in now in the world).
Let's not immediately sweep this under the rug Willy Nilly. I think it's worth looking at.
Peace,
Damon. -
Salaam Samia,
Salaam Damon
Few comments
- It's true that the verb "shahida" is perfect (past tense); but that's just the pattern. In a conditional sentence it is a choice to use a perfect or imperfect pattern for the verb, and they both have a present, or even a future meaning.
Yes, I know. And I am also of the understanding that its usage in such a case as this can be undertsood as perfect or imperfect. To me, it would be more logical if one understood the word in the perfect sense and thus gain a better understanding of the verse.
- I think you mean "abSara" not "baSSara" (baSsara means explain).; derived from BaSar sight. It has a meaning of deep knowledge and understanding. In the qur'aan the verb and its derivatives are used to mean "comprehend, understand "afalaa tubSiruun?" 2872. It also means to see in opposition to being blind, also used in the qur'aan in this meaning1120;1942...
"abSara" is derived from BaSsara and when we look it up in Lane's, we see the FIRST definition given is to see/have sight. As you pointed out, it has one of its meanings as seeing in opposition to blindness which is used this way in the quran quite alot. Please see my earlier post where I gave the chapter and verse numbers for this.
- The only possible one is "ra'aa", yet this is not exclusively to "see". It is also used as "to think", no wonder it is derived from the noun "ra'y opinion". Even when it is used as "to see", it is not necessarily at the time of the event "alam tara kaifa fa3ala rabbuka bi aS7aabil feel?"
You are quite right that it does not mean exclusively to see, but it is DEFINATELY one of the defintions associated with it. And to me it would make a lot more sense if GOD would have used one of these words in 2185 to mean to physically look at/sight/see the moon. In all the occurences of derivatives of shahida that I have seen in the quran, they all have to do with an event or activity that requires more than just physically seeing something. It would be illogical for to merely mean to physically see something (in this case the new moon) in 2185.
So the verb "shaahda" is the best choice it has the meaning of "to see= ra'aa" but has the component of the present event, and no opinions involved, no understanding required.
I hope I am clear...any confusion please ask.
No, you were clear about your understanding, but I humbly disagree with that understanding and the conclusion you have come to.
As you posted this while I was in the middle of my last reply, I hope you see the rest of my argument and the evidences I have brought forth to support it, including links to both BaSsaRa and Raa'a in Lane's Lexicon.
Peace,
Damon. -
Salaam Damon
I agree that the three verbs are sort of crossing one the other to a degree. I was not trying to oppose your understanding, because I do not know how you understand this verse, and why. I also agree that one may use whatever meaning contained in a word, even if it is not the nearest one, if there is a problem of logic or principle when applying the nearer meaning. So, how do you understand this verse, and what is the problem with the other understanding?
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Peace Damon,
I'll have to check lane. i just checked Muheetul-Muheet and everything mentioned had to do with heat in some way.
Ramida yawmuna expression of happeniness, meaning its heat was strong (Ka-fariha ishtadda harruhu)
ramida qadamuhu His foot burned up from the heat (ihtaraqat min aramdaa'.)
Aramdaa' Is ground that is very hot (lil-ardi shadeedatil-haraarati)
Ramida al-ghanamu The sheep pastured in extreme heat and their livers suffered injury (ra&at fee shiddatilharri faqarihat akbaaduhaa)For Ramada we have
Ramada ashaata He cut into the sheep while their still had their hides on throwing onto heated rocks and pouring heated sand to cook them. (shaqqahaa wa &alaihaa jilduhaa wa tarahahaa &alaa aradfati wa ja&ala fawqahaa al-mallata litandaja)
Al-ghanam He pasture them in extreme heat (ra&aahaa fee-rramdaa'ramadaan can only come from a first form verb and is of the form fa&alaan. See Wright's A grammar of the Arabic language 113 Rem. 21
Godbless,
Anwar -
Salaam Samia,
Salaam Damon
I agree that the three verbs are sort of crossing one the other to a degree.
Actually, I don't believe that they cross each other to the degree that we would confuse one for the other. I simply did two things. First, I looked up the definition of all three roots (shahida, baSsura, and raa'a). Then, I looked at how the words and their derivatives are specifically utilised throughout the quran. Having done this, I am beginning to think that in 2185 GOD may not be speaking of the believers seeing/sighting a new moon because He could have made it simple and clear if He would have said faman BaSsuRa minkum ash-shahr OR faman Raa'a minkum ash-shahr.
This is just ONE of the reasons why I don't believe GOD commanded men to beat their wives in 434. In 2815 Moses had killed a man by physically striking him.
He came to the city when the people were in a care-free mood, and saw two men quarrelling, one belonging to his community, the other to his enemies. The man who belonged to his community appealed for help against the one who belonged to the enemies. Moses struck him a blow with his fist and finished him off. "This is of Satan's doing," he said. "He is certainly an enemy and a corrupter." (2815)
The Root word Wakaza Specifically means To strike with ones fist, or hand or an object. If GOD meant for the believing men to physically beat their wives, He could have made it very clear and taken out any guess word if He would have said Ikizuuhuna instead of Idribuuhuna.
Similarily, I think if we were to sight the moon to start the fast He could have easily said faman BaSsuRa minkum ash-shahr or He could have said faman Raa'a minkum ash-shahr. In stating it in these words, there would be no guesswork as to what we should be doing and what will signify that it is time to start the fast. These words would have made it very clear.
I was not trying to oppose your understanding, because I do not know how you understand this verse, and why. I also agree that one may use whatever meaning contained in a word, even if it is not the nearest one, if there is a problem of logic or principle when applying the nearer meaning. So, how do you understand this verse, and what is the problem with the other understanding?
I'm not saying that there is necessarily a problem with the other understanding. But I do believe the points that I have been making so far not only warrants further study into it, but may possibly make more sense than the other understanding that is being presented here.
So, I basically have three questions
1). Definition and Grammar wise is it impossible to understand shahida in 2185 to mean He was present?
2). What does one do? Does one Witness a moon or does he See/sight/gaze at the moon?
3). If shahida in 2185 is to be understood as either to be present or to witness/bear testimony to a thing, would it not make sense to understand shahrramaDdan as either
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A condition of pain or distress that is publically announced
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An apparent/manifest/notorious state of pain/grief/distress
And that a person or persons can be present or bear witness or testify to one of the two possibilities above?
I hope I am presenting myself a little more clearly than before, GOD Willing.
Peace,
Damon. -