Ramadan? 2007
-
Salaam Samia,
I got your point, Damon.
I will scan the qur'aan this weekend to see how the three verbs are used.Cool.
But I would like to know how the part with (in which the qur'aan was revealed) can fit.
So would I, which is why I am here discussing these things with you guys. D
Tentatively, I am leaning towards the possibility that it was when one was present/had witnessed distress within himself or in his environment/society (The Problem) that GOD had revealed to him the message of the quran from which he gain GOD's guidance (The Solution). I know this may sound kind of cheesy, but is it possible that one commemorates the anniversary of this by fasting in order to please GOD and thanking Him for His guidance? hmm
Salaam,
Damon. -
Peace,
Okay Damon, I read Lane and saw the ramidtu min al-amri and ramidtu lahu (literally I got hot about the issue or because of it). Irtamadtu naturally means I got distressed or agrieved as it is the reflexive of it. As I see it ramida needs the clarifiers like min al-amri or lahu for it not to be taken as being literally afflicted by heat or being very hot in some way. Irtamada doesn't. It can directly mean to be distressed which is why you find it the way it is in lane. Literally to get very hot by oneself, for oneself or to oneself. That is the reflexive meaning of form ifta&ala.
Ramadaanun is the constant/intensive form of ramada. So for this to be constant/intense distress/grief it needs a clarifier like a person being afllicted by ramadaanun. A month of ramadaan I don't see as very likely to mean a month of distress as this is a secondary meaning and has to be tied to a concept that is giving grief. It's the difference between being hot and being hot about something.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace all,
Some stronger Qur'aanic examples of usage of "Sh-H-D" meaning to witness by SEEING
1226 He said "She is the one who seduced me from myself," and a witness (shahida) from her family gave testimony (shaahidun) "If his shirt was torn from the front, then she is truthful, and he is the liar."
Witnessing the shirt being torn from the front is SEEING it get torn.
2161 They said "Bring him before the eyes of the people so that they may be witness (yashhadoon)."
Here witnessing/yashhadoon is related to THE EYES and thus witnessing by SEEING it.
244 And those who accuse the independent women and they do not bring forth four witnesses (shuhadaa), then you shall lash them eighty lashes and do not ever accept their testimony (shahadatan). Those indeed are the evildoers.
Here the "shahada"/testimony of the "shuhadaa"/witnesses is by SEEING the act of zina.
-
Peace all,
To witness/"shahida" also involves SHARING with others in addition to SEEING it, and therefore is the best choice in 2185. If it was just "bassara" or "ra'aa", then there is no implication of sharing with others.
Hence one is supposed to witness the full-moon by seeing it (just like 1226, 2161, and 244) and then share with others (just like 1226 and 244), so others can accept the testimony.
-
Peace,
Okay Damon, I read Lane and saw the ramidtu min al-amri and ramidtu lahu (literally I got hot about the issue or because of it). Irtamadtu naturally means I got distressed or agrieved as it is the reflexive of it. As I see it ramida needs the clarifiers like min al-amri or lahu for it not to be taken as being literally afflicted by heat or being very hot in some way. Irtamada doesn't. It can directly mean to be distressed which is why you find it the way it is in lane. Literally to get very hot by oneself, for oneself or to oneself. That is the reflexive meaning of form ifta&ala.
I don't think I quite see it that way. I am looking at the usage and verbal implication in the word ramidtu (I was distressed/pained/I grieved).
I know you are correct in that Irtamada stands on its own and does not need a clarifier. However, as I see it the words Ramidtu (I grieved/was distressed) and armidhu al-amru (the affair pained him) do not need the clarifiers of min al-amri, lahu, or al-amru in order to be understood in this fashion. 2185 (if it can be understood this way) does not have a clarifier, but that does not mean that a clarifier is needed in order for it to be possibly understood as apparent grieving/pain/distress. If it did need a clarifier, then we would have to say that the word Islam would also need a specific clarifier in order to understand the implication that it is to GOD that we surrender/submit/resignate. We understand the implication based on how the word is used and in what context.
Ramadaanun is the constant/intensive form of ramada. So for this to be constant/intense distress/grief it needs a clarifier like a person being afllicted by ramadaanun. A month of ramadaan I don't see as very likely to mean a month of distress as this is a secondary meaning and has to be tied to a concept that is giving grief. It's the difference between being hot and being hot about something.
Although I am not saying that we all just forget all the other understandings we've had upto this point and go by this, at the same time I don't think it can be automatically dismissed unless it is 100% grammitically impossible and/or improper to understand it differently than the above. There are many, many verses in the quran where states and conditions are implied and properly understood without a specific clarifier or concept.
If it can be demonstrated grammatically that is either impossible or improper to understand shahrramadaan as apparent/manifest state/condition of grief or distress, then there would be no point in me exploring this possibility any further. If not, I'd say we all be patient and look at this particular possibility a little closer. That's all I'm saying.
Salaam,
Damon. -
Peace Tanveer,
Peace all,
Some stronger Qur'aanic examples of usage of "Sh-H-D" meaning to witness by SEEING
1226 He said "She is the one who seduced me from myself," and a witness (shahida) from her family gave testimony (shaahidun) "If his shirt was torn from the front, then she is truthful, and he is the liar."
Witnessing the shirt being torn from the front is SEEING it get torn.
This verse does not imply that the person who stepped forth as a witness had seen anything. This witness merely suggested a way to get to the bottom of the matter and find out which of the two is telling the truth. Everyone went by the witness's suggestion and examined the shirt and and THEY ALL had seen that the shirt was torn. They ALL seen it, yet the verse only mentions ONE witness who gave a testimony. The testimony was [i"If his shirt was torn from the front, then she is truthful, and he is the liar."
IT says nowhere in this verse that this Sole Witness had seen anything with the eyes. The witness only gave a testimony/suggestion of figuring out who was telling the truth and who was the liar.
2161 They said "Bring him before the eyes of the people so that they may be witness (yashhadoon)."
Here witnessing/yashhadoon is related to THE EYES and thus witnessing by SEEING it.
This is the only verse pointed out in this thread so far that certainly means to see with the eyes and that is because the eyes are literally mentioned in this verse (a3yun). The other verses that have been pointed out thus far, do not have the mentioning of the eyes and, thus, one would be hard pressed to show that it has anything to do with seeing with the eyes.
244 And those who accuse the independent women and they do not bring forth four witnesses (shuhadaa), then you shall lash them eighty lashes and do not ever accept their testimony (shahadatan). Those indeed are the evildoers.
Here the "shahada"/testimony of the "shuhadaa"/witnesses is by SEEING the act of zina.
It does not say that literally brother. Although I certainly agree that in this verse it certainly helps to have seen the two guilty people with one's eyes, but as I said in another post earlier in this thread, witnessing and giving testimony to a situation (which is what 244 is describing) involves hearing something as well.
Would it be right for me to assume that just because I had seen you go into a private place with someone who you are not married to, that you must be in there having sexual relations with her? Would if I didn't bother going any closer to the place to try and hear what is going on? Had I done that, I probably would have discovered that you are an insurance salesman and you were giving a presentation. Or maybe I would have discovered that there was actually a third party in there as well whom I did not see enter the place.
If I and three others would have seen the same thing (you going into a place with a woman you are not married to) and acted as Four Witnesses against you (even though you are innocent of the charge) you have just been tried and convicted for something you did not do. You were only trying to make a sale. And besides, there was a third party in there with you who us four WITNESSES did not know about.
The only possibilty you are left with is physically seeing them have intercourse with your own eyes and if that is the case, then I have to ask how did you position yourself in a situation where you are literally watching two people engage in sexual intercourse?
Peace,
Damon. -
Peace again Brother Tanveer,
Peace all,
To witness/"shahida" also involves SHARING with others in addition to SEEING it, and therefore is the best choice in 2185. If it was just "bassara" or "ra'aa", then there is no implication of sharing with others.
And yet there is no implication of SHARING ANYTHING with others in 2185 either. It would be more logical if it were bassura or ra'aa for the simple fact that there is absolutely no implication of sharing anything with anyone in 2185.
Hence one is supposed to witness the full-moon by seeing it (just like 1226, 2161, and 244) and then share with others (just like 1226 and 244), so others can accept the testimony.
There are two reasons why I think this is incorrect.
1). As I said above, there is absolutely no implication of sharing anything in 2185.
2). I can see fine for myself. If a new moon appeared, I can see it just as plainly as the next man can. What would be the point in having someone else see the moon for me and then share with me what he had seen? Would this not somehow go against 1736? Should I not go see for myself?
Unless 90% of the people in the land are either Blind or somehow mentally challenged, then it is illogical for a person to see the moon and then tell others "Hey, I saw the moon last night".
Another thing, the verse says "FAMAN shahida MINKUM ash-shahr" meaning WHOSEVER witnesses AMONG YOU ALL ash-shahr. So one would have to witness/be present themselves anyway to know for sure what was beeing seen.
Salaam,
Damon. -
Peace,
Damon you said
If it did need a clarifier, then we would have to say that the word Islam would also need a specific clarifier in order to understand the implication that it is to GOD that we surrender/submit/resignate. We understand the implication based on how the word is used and in what context.
Well you know my opinion well on this issue. The word Islam does need a clarifier. We don't understand the real meaning of this word when we use it now, we understand its interpretations which are separate non-original definitions for the word, that we accept.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace Anwar,
Well you know my opinion well on this issue. The word Islam does need a clarifier. We don't understand the real meaning of this word when we use it now, we understand its interpretations which are separate non-original definitions for the word, that we accept.
Godbless,
AnwarYeah, on second thought I think that wasn't a very good example I gave. I should have chosen a different word. In fact, I agree with you on this one.
Peace,
Damon. -
Peace,
I agree that the Quran must and can be applied in any situation. But Mankind is made to live on PLANETS and not in spaceships or space stations. These are temporary situations. The main goal of space-exploration is exploring and find planets we can cultivate. Thus we will create a new wildlife ourselves, and God refers with these verses that we must always observe the natural cycles so we can use them in the best way.
I do understand and agree 100% with your concept. Islam is a Universal Deen that can even be applied on the Enterprise. I try to uphold a scientific logical and socially developing Islam. The focus is on Mankind and its development, not on God and pleasing Him.
Salaams Br,
i certainly did my investigation and do accept the following to be authentic, although minor adjustment are .......
936
Verily the number of ways of approaching others/interactions between people, with Allah, are twelve interaction in the Book of Allah ????.of them four are forbidden???..53 four shahr forbidden.
To forbid causing death.
To forbid the bloodshed.
To forbid vilification with pride.
To forbid doing opposite to Allah or according to other then Allah ? Strangling, beating, repelling, corruption and that you devour by obscenity or lewdness except what is legal to you and what lawful by labour and the seeking of knowledge of fate through divination.8-shahrencouraged
9112
To return from sin or disobedience.
To imbibe and reflect on Gods attributes.
To speak well of (others).
To devote oneself for others.
To be humble - not proud or not believing that you are important
To accept Godly authorities.
To enjoin good and forbid evil.
To observe the limits set by God.Damon seems to be on the right track - i don't seem to have much time now, might give more time later on.
Salaams Br's.
-
Peace Damon,
This is the only verse pointed out in this thread so far that certainly means to see with the eyes and that is because the eyes are literally mentioned in this verse (a3yun). The other verses that have been pointed out thus far, do not have the mentioning of the eyes and, thus, one would be hard pressed to show that it has anything to do with seeing with the eyes.
I was merely trying to present evidence from the Qur'aan that "shahida"/witness can mean only seeing with the eyes also. Thus you cannot say that "shahida" can only mean seeing and hearing. Actually according to 2424 and 3665, witnessing can be done without seeing or hearing in the conventional sense. The quoted signs (1226, 2161, 244) imply that the witnessing involved only seeing, and 1226 and 244 imply giving evidence, or testifying, or attesting to the others as well.
Hence "shahida" in 2185 can mean only seeing the moon of scorching heat. This combined with the fact that "shahida" also implies telling others or sharing the testimony with others makes seeing the moon of scorching heat the best/most likely meaning.
The word "shahida" is used as a verb in 2185 which also includes the meaning of telling others and sharing the testimony with them. Thus, "whosoever witnesses among you" also means whosoever gives evidence, or testifies, or bears witness of the "shahr" to others.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
wit?ness /wtns/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
?verb (used with object)- to see, hear, or know by personal presence and perception to witness an accident.
- to be present at (an occurrence) as a formal witness, spectator, bystander, etc. She witnessed our wedding.
- to bear witness to; testify to; give or afford evidence of.
- to attest by one's signature He witnessed her will.
The word "shahida" in 2185 implies both seeing the moon of scorching heat and then giving this evidence, or testifying, or attesting to others, and then the others can confirm this by seeing for themselves. If "bassara" or "ra'aa" were used instead, then sharing the evidence with others, or testifying, or attesting to others part of the meaning would have been lost, and then one would be required only to see for themselves and not tell others.
It does not say that literally brother. Although I certainly agree that in this verse it certainly helps to have seen the two guilty people with one's eyes, but as I said in another post earlier in this thread, witnessing and giving testimony to a situation (which is what 244 is describing) involves hearing something as well.
It does not necessarily involve hearing as well as shown above.
The only possibilty you are left with is physically seeing them have intercourse with your own eyes and if that is the case, then I have to ask how did you position yourself in a situation where you are literally watching two people engage in sexual intercourse?
That is the only possibility referred to in that sign. The only way one can witness zina is by seeing the act of zina by seeing the sexual intercourse. This implies that the act of zina is a public act in which a couple is engaged in sexual intercourse in public and one happened to see it due to the fact of it being performed in public. There are many places in the world where sexual intercourse has been known to be performed publicly in some alley or street or public garden etc.
By your definition of witnessing to be seeing and hearing as well, a couple engaged in public sexual intercourse where they can be seen by everyone but not making any noise in the act cannot be witnessed, so all one has to do is perform sex publicly but not make any noise and one will be immune from being witnessed and thus punished nope
yeah
This verse does not imply that the person who stepped forth as a witness had seen anything. This witness merely suggested a way to get to the bottom of the matter and find out which of the two is telling the truth. Everyone went by the witness's suggestion and examined the shirt and and THEY ALL had seen that the shirt was torn. They ALL seen it, yet the verse only mentions ONE witness who gave a testimony. The testimony was [i"If his shirt was torn from the front, then she is truthful, and he is the liar."
IT says nowhere in this verse that this Sole Witness had seen anything with the eyes. The witness only gave a testimony/suggestion of figuring out who was telling the truth and who was the liar.
Witnessing is not "suggesting", but GIVING EVIDENCE or testifying/attesting something that a person has witnessed. The testimony given by the witness CONFIRMED what the witness had witnessed by giving irrefutable evidence of where the shirt was torn from. The sign implies that the witness had SEEN where the shirt was torn from AT THE TIME of the alleged attempt by Joseph. The witness had not just seen where the shirt was torn from but had also witnessed the actual incidence and thus the time of the incidence; otherwise some listener of the testimony could have objected by saying that tearing of the shirt had nothing to do with the actual incidence, and happened at some time other than the incidence.
-
Peace,
And what is the basis behind shahrun as "ways of approaching others/interactions between people"?
Godbless,
AnwarOn a side-note Damon if you can make sense out of shahru ramadaana as 'a month of some constant distress' in which we are supposed to fast well you go ahead. I personally don't see it bruh. But there are no hard feelings.
By the way no-one has discussed the issue of case endings here. Many of the people here are using modern Arabic rules of an idaafat without case endings. But we are dealing with old Arabic and I personally don't know how any of you are accounting for shahrU ramadaanA. I don't see anyone even dealing with this issue.
-
Peace,
And what is the basis behind shahrun as "ways of approaching others/interactions between people"?
Godbless,
AnwarOn a side-note Damon if you can make sense out of shahru ramadaana as 'a month of some constant distress' in which we are supposed to fast well you go ahead. I personally don't see it bruh. But there are no hard feelings.
By the way no-one has discussed the issue of case endings here. Many of the people here are using modern Arabic rules of an idaafat without case endings. But we are dealing with old Arabic and I personally don't know how any of you are accounting for shahrU ramadaanA. I don't see anyone even dealing with this issue.
Salaams Br,
Page 1156-lanes
Ta-Daakhalanee Min Hadha Alamri-RAMADZUN
Distress and disquietude, or grief, crept into me from, or in consequence of, this thing.A-RAMDZ-ho Alamro
The thing or affair pained him.A-RAMDZ-ho
Burned him/distressed him/pained him.Page 1612-lanes
Shehrun = He made it apparent/manifest/notorious/public.
Just a starter for you...........
God Bless All.
-
By the way no-one has discussed the issue of case endings here. Many of the people here are using modern Arabic rules of an idaafat without case endings. But we are dealing with old Arabic and I personally don't know how any of you are accounting for shahrU ramadaanA. I don't see anyone even dealing with this issue.
This was discussed before here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12381.msg100212#msg100212
-
Shehrun = He made it apparent/manifest/notorious/public.
All this cannot be under shahrun. Because shahrun is not a verb. I'll check on my own. The rest of the meanings about ramadan I read and was not asking about them. I was only concerned with shahrun as ways of approaching others/interactions between people
Godbless,
AnwarExpect my response either today or tomorrow. God willing
On a side note I remeber this word shahr as eitheer one who is apparent, notrious, aparent, public or publicity, aparency, manifestation etc.
Like I said I'll take a look and give my reply later on God willing
-
Peace,
Okay, I looked at lane and I see 'shahrun' as any instance of 'making something apparent, notorious, etc.' There is also much to say about the negative light that shahara gives to someone by making them apparrent.
I also don't think lane covered all of the meanings of this word. Muheetul-muheet has some other means. I also see that muheetul-muheet used a refernence that lane's did saying that moon was like a nail cutting, crescent shaped. Lane seems to use this reference better than Muheet does. However, Muheet also has some usages not cited by Lane.
The usage that I think defies lanes explanation is 'al-adadul-ma'roofu min al-ayyaamu liannahu yush-haru bil-qamari' I think this is saying that any number of days that completes a lunar cycle is also a shahr.
I must also add that lane's reference to 29 (which I saw as days (yawm)) in another dictionary actually refers to nights(a key point as the Islamic calender begins its day with night fall). And lane says 'the utitlity of looking for the new moon' as he knows that the new moon can either come on the 29th or 30th night. He sites a hadeeth as well. I also once read a hadeeth that said how most had forgotten to mention the 30 day month, again a lunar cylce can be 29 or 30 days. The Quran counts days from sunrise to sunrise, but islam from sundown to sundown.
Here's a little chart I worked out (Go from left to right).
29n(siting)d 1n 1d n d n d n d n d n d n d n d n d n d n d n d n d n d n d n d n d n d n d n d n d n d n d n d n d n d n d n d 29n(siting) d 1n 30d
I did this little calculation where n equals night and d equals sunrise(daylight) and it would seem that if on the 29th night of one month the moon is sited than the beginning night of the next month coincides with the end of 30 surnise to sunrise days. To check this you can see that 29n(siting) is the 29th night of the previous month where the new moon is sited. 29 nights afterwards is the next siting. As islamic days are from night to night, that would mean that the next night is the beginning of the new month. If we track the number of sunrise to sunrise days that go along with the same time period by counting 1d as the first completed day when we get to 30d we will have completed 30 sunrise to sunrise days. Another thing to notice is that if the moon is site on the 30th day then there still would have only been 30 sunrise to sunrise days completed.
29n(siting) 29th day of month where moon is sited
1d first completed sunrise-surnise day.
1n Startingpoint for first sundown-sundown day
30d Completion of 30 sunrise-sunrise days and starting point for first sunrise-sunrise day of new month.
n night
d sunriseSO it would seem that 29 Islamic sundown-sundown days equals 30 Quranic sunrise-sunrise days.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace All,
I just wanted to wish you all "Ramadhan Mubarak" for having completed the 10 day fast yesterday! sun
-
Peace Tanveer,
I see this has the potential of going on forever. Neither one of us is budging from what he understands of the verb shahida and the derivatives that stem from it. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. And as Brother Anwar said to me earlier in this thread...No hard feelings on my part.
Peace.