Ramadan? 2007
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Peace Anwar,
On a side-note Damon if you can make sense out of shahru ramadaana as 'a month of some constant distress' in which we are supposed to fast well you go ahead. I personally don't see it bruh. But there are no hard feelings.
No, not a month of some constant distress, but an announcement of a painful/distressed state or condition or an obvious/apparent state of distress or grief.
If this is the case (and I am NOT imposing my way of thinking on any of you brothers and sisters here) then the former possibility will be if someone verbally expressed these feelings and thoughts to a people and announced to them that this revelation from GOD is THE Solution to all of the grief and distress that he is expressing his discontent for. The latter possibility does not necessarily require a verbal lashing from anyone, but is nonetheless apparent/obvious/manifest to all those who are Aware of the state of things in our society which causes pain/grief/state of distress to them and others. Being negatively affected by the crime, poverty, corruption, racism, bad economy, mistreatment of human beings, etc.
This is the reason the quran was revealed. I am still looking at the possibility and am now dialoguing with some other people who are knowledgable of the language, but I believe it is possible that Shahru RamaDaan is the problem and al-quraan hudaa lilnaas is the solution. If Surah al-fatiha is the cry of mankind to GOD as many people believe it to be, then maybe it was because of shahru ramadaan that this cry was made out to GOD answered this cry when He sent al-quraan hudaa lilnaas.
I have asked before and I am asking ONE...MORE...TIME If it is Grammitically and Linguistically IMPOSSIBLE (according to Arabic Grammar rules) for shahru ramadaan to be understood in one of the two ways I have mentioned above?
Peace,
Damon. -
Peace,
Damon I would say yes, this is an impossiblity. For it to be a possiblity to mean what you are proposing it would have to be shahrU ramadaanIN. "The anouncement of some constant stress and grief."
Shahru ramadaana can be literally be the month of Ramadaanu (a name that is not fully declined. Ramaadaanu and Ramadaana only. Like Ibraheemu and Ibraheema (God bless him))
Otherwise Shahru ramadaana can be read understanding tajweez rules and how they appear in the Quran and its Old Arabic pronunciation as shahrun ramadaanan.(lit. a month as it concerns constant/intense heat). One can note in the Quran that although that though the assimilation (idghaam) in the Quran is many times annotated with a shaddah above it is not always. The most obvious cases are where waw or ya follow noon and even many times where raa follows meem. I have already shown how alif and fathah can be interchangeable especially at the end of words denoting the mansoob case, as it concerns the Quranic text.
As it concerns shahr I agree that this can be announcement, exposure or any other word that has to do with makign something known or famous. However, I don't see it as logical in the case and I see that month is more in line with the true meaning.
Damon,
Honestly I am glad you brought this up again. You help me see an error in my understanding of 29 days through Lane whereby I found out that this is techncially 29 Islamic days beginning with night time and that this corresponds with 30 Quranic days that begin from sunrise to sunrise.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace,
Damon has brought up is very
interesting. I disagreed with him because of the voweling of the word
however I have really been thinking over this issue in my personal
time. He has observed a meaning of ramada which is to be grieved on
distressed over something. I have confirmed that meaning and anyone
can go to Lane's Lexicon (there is a free online version though
www.quraninstitute.com) to verify. The issue is Shahru ramadana
allathee onzila feehi alquranu hudan lilnnasi wabayyinatin mina
alhuda waalfurqani faman shahida minkumu alshshahra falyasumhuThe issue is in the casing of ramadaan. Ramadaana can either be a
nondelcinable case for a name Ramadaanu or it can be the tajweedic
pronunciation of ramadaanan.Shahr can mean (a month)29 islamic days (which equals 30 Quranic
sunrise to sunrise days), the moon, the moon when it is almost full,
the crescent moon or publicising or exposing.the 'an'on the end gives the meaning of haalat in Arabic which is
like saying ly or wise at the end of the word. For intance al-qaraaru
hikmatan maa kaana khairan The decision wisdom-wise (as it concerns
wisdom) was not something good'Shahrun Ramadaanan can mean
A declaration/exposition as it concerns constant/instense distress
(The Quran is what was revealed concerning it. So whoever witnesses
it should fast it/refrain from it)A summerly month/A month as it concerns constant/intense heat. (The
Quran is what was revealed within it. So whomever witnesses it should
should fast it/refrain from it)I disagreed with Damon on the casing. However, though I have not
posted on Free-minds I will soon repost this post there. For it to
literally be a month of constant/instense distress it would have to
be shahru ramadaanin.Using tajweedic pronunciation we can see this as shahrun ramadaanan
and in this case ramadaanan modifies shahrun, making it a declartion
or exposition that has to do with intense/constant distress, or heat
or a month that has to do with either of these two. So let me take
back my earlier statement to you Damon and apologize for saying that
your conclusion on the meaning of these two words together is
impossible. It is not impossible.However when it comes to the rest of the verse. Do we refrain from
any month of constant/intense distress (something that we have not
control over, and why just a month?), Do we fast during it (if we
find ourselves constantly stressed out during any 30 day period we
fast during it? How do we know that it will last a month?) Was the
Quran revealed to address declarations, anouncements, denouncements
or any exposing of constant or instense distress, so when we witness
such a denouncement, declaration or exposing we should refrain from
it or fast during it? Why use the word fast here? Should we only
fast/refrain from it when we witness it?There are some logical problems with the rest of the passage if we
take Ramadaanana not as a proper name or as constant/instense heat.However, I do retract my statement about it being an impossiblity for
those two words to mean that. It is not an impossibility. However in
that Quranic context it seems to be a logical impossiblity.Godbless,
Anwar -
Greetings Damon,
I just started reading this thread this morning, and I have to say that I was quite pleased to read your posts and your understandings. They are very similar to the best conclusion of understanding I can come to as well.
No, not a month of some constant distress, but an announcement of a painful/distressed state or condition or an obvious/apparent state of distress or grief.
Through my observations and understanding of the processes that go on within the human body via thought processes and the hormonal system, I understand the phrase a bit differently. I understand the phrase to refer to a specific incident/time of a painful/distressed state. Let me explain
We all have mental/emotional 'triggers' if you will, that become 'programmed' into our brains as a thought reflex. These triggers are set into the neural pathways of the brain after an incident that has affected a person very deeply emotionally. At the time of the original incident,a flood of hormones and a feeling of 'flight' or 'fight' were an appropriate and perhaps needed response. However, once this response has been 'programmed', and the neural pathways have become set, this person will find himself prone to over-reacting in situations that in any way resemble the original situation that has caused him so much strong emotion. For instance, in the case of a woman who's had a bad experience with a previous partner or husband for having been unfaithful --as soon as she perceives any situation to be similar to that one that affected her so strongly -- even in relation to another partner -- she will react physically/emotionally in the very same way as was warranted in the original situation, despite the fact that this situation is 'in reality' not the same as the one from the past that affected her so deeply. Her now 'irrational' response is likely to cause a lot of pain and suffering to herself and those around her.
I believe this strong rush of emotional/hormonal 'heat' that we feel at this very moment (and it is very real, and very hot) is 'shahr ramadhan' and we are being advised to abstain from acting on the impulses that we are having at this point in time, not some abstract 'month' or 'full moon'. If need be, we should hold ourselves from acting on the impulses, even though they may feel very insistant, for a 'number of days'. By then, the 'heat' will have passed, and we will have regained control of our faculty of appropriate action or reaction.
As I see it.....
And as mz sees it
Re Sama - to abstain from-
? Reply #1 on August 03, 2007, 064014 AM ?
Salaams,
And when you learn to avoid an evil debate or an action you create an inner strength,taqwa.
i think .
I think so too. sun
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Peace,
And what about "And whoever is ill or traveling then a number of other days. God wants easiness for you not difficulty, and that you wold complete this number (of days) . . ."?
And what about 2183-84? It talks about fasting being a law for us and using the same language used in 2;185, and about if being sick or travelling how we can fast other days, as well as it's compensation being the feeding of someone in bad situation.
What can any of this have to do with abstaining from distress when distress becomes apparent (in us).
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace to you all,
I'll have to agree with Lisa that Damon has really found something intresting here.
It might was that Quran came in a time of problems when people was bewildered and didn't hold on to sane laws.
And therefore we are adviced in Quran to announce this time every year as a reminder.
But it seems more logic to use this time to read/study Quran than to abstain from food and water, but God knows best!
Sis Majidah
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Peace,
And what about "And whoever is ill or traveling then a number of other days. God wants easiness for you not difficulty, and that you wold complete this number (of days) . . ."?
And what about 2183-84? It talks about fasting being a law for us and using the same language used in 2;185, and about if being sick or travelling how we can fast other days, as well as it's compensation being the feeding of someone in bad situation.
What can any of this have to do with abstaining from distress when distress becomes apparent (in us).
Godbless,
AnwarPeace Br Anwar,
But think if this is same as the hajj debates!?
And somewhere in Quran there is a phrase like, Oh my people you have deserted this Quran.
Maybe Quran is deserted already and therefore we cannot really get it, why else all this guessings all the time, if Quran is fully detailed and clear, why it not feels so?
Peace
Majidah -
Please explain why it is more logical to study/read Quran than to abstain from food/water (in the context of this argument).
Fasting brings many benefits.
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Maybe Quran is deserted already and therefore we cannot really get it, why else all this guessings all the time, if Quran is fully detailed and clear, why it not feels so?
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Because many have very weak Classical Arabic skills and a weak concept of the language in these times (including "Arabs".)
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Many here are trying to find alternative meanings to traditonal understandings, no matter what, even if the traditional understanding is correct, combining this with the first and with some's overcompensation for lack of Arabic knowledge with very fanciful interpretations and fabrications you have a recipe for disaster for people who have really basic knowledge of Arabic or none at all but who are still seeking the Quran.
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Those who have perverted hearts, God will lead astray. This is a fact. These perverted hearts seem to be as pervasive now (and here) as they were during the time of our last prophet and after he left this word to dwell with the Lord. Remember that back then they were Quran only as well, and they just had the Quran. Again, this combined with the above and with feelings of resent by some that God's message is in Clasisical Arabic (not their native languages), you have alot of people who want a stake in creating an innovative vision of what they feel Islam should be. They think they have a chance to do this here by misinterpreting Arabic on false premises purposefully and influencing the ideas of those who are not rooted in Arabic, want to come to the Quran and are very dissilussioned with traditional Islam and its scholars who claim to be the keys to the Quran and most knolwedgeable about Classical Arabic. This is a recipe for disaster and all of these ideas that have nothing to do with the Quran at all are actually taking people away from sound knowledge and the Quran by seeking to call to it and then wildly interpret it.
Godbless,
Anwar -
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Please explain why it is more logical to study/read Quran than to abstain from food/water (in the context of this argument).
Fasting brings many benefits.
Peace,
Well if Quran was revealed during that time it must be most logic to study it more during that time.I don't think fasting brings many benefits at all, I don't feel comforted to fast because I want to have my bloodsugar in balance so I feel to eat every third hour to feel satisfied and between that I drink water.
And to fast for cleansing your body, there are other remedies for that now. Sometimes I buy a cure of herbal medicines to drink for 10 days and it does the same as fasting.
Peace
Majidah -
- Because many have very weak Classical Arabic skills and a weak concept of the language in these times (including "Arabs".)
Peace,
Yeah I have noticed that and that not make it more easy to stay on the right course so to speak.
But I pretty doubt that Islam is a religion but rather a lifestyle or a system and rituals not suits well in a system.
If Quran is a guideline for mankind here on earth then the Quran's purpose is to advice us of things that benefits us and lead us to our Lord.
God He don't need our prayers or our sacrifices etc BUT all this is for our own sakes or our own good.
That leads me to think that all unlogic rituals that not gain me at all is no need of performing, so simple is that.
Peace
Majidah -
Peace,
But who is to say that something is illogical. Because we think something is illogical according to our cultural standards does that mean that it is illogical and therefore God could not have meant it. How can you see fasting as illogical. I see it as a ritual manifestation and a training of the mind to sacrifice for God's sake, and to realize the unimportance of the comforts of life and the importance of God. I see it as a ritual that has alot of worth, alot of worth. And furthermore whether we see the reason for why God wants us to do something or not, if the words can't mean anything else why don't we just accept that God is all wise and many times that good he wants for us is a good that will extend into the next life. Let's look at not eating pig meat, not having sex out of the bounds or promise of marriage (even if it is protected sex) washing before prayer, these are rituals that are supposed to instill something in our brains about how we need to live our lives. It is not the pig meat, the sex or the not washing before prayer that is evil, it is that this helps us realize we must be willing to discplining ourselves for God's sake and understand that God is more important than somethings in life that we might like to enjoy, but that really have no negative affect (and most of which will have a positive effect, physically or intangibly) on us if we don't partake. We can't be godly and headonists at the same time, and living logically and sensibly does not equal safely practicing headonism.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace,
Well if Quran was revealed during that time it must be most logic to study it more during that time.I don't think fasting brings many benefits at all, I don't feel comforted to fast because I want to have my bloodsugar in balance so I feel to eat every third hour to feel satisfied and between that I drink water.
And to fast for cleansing your body, there are other remedies for that now. Sometimes I buy a cure of herbal medicines to drink for 10 days and it does the same as fasting.
Peace
MajidahPeace Majida
You need to fast for two months continuesly inshall ah your bloodsugar will be voodoo
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Salaams progod,
And what about "And whoever is ill or traveling then a number of other days. God wants easiness for you not difficulty, and that you wold complete this number (of days) . . ."?
And what about 2183-84? It talks about fasting being a law for us and using the same language used in 2;185, and about if being sick or travelling how we can fast other days, as well as it's compensation being the feeding of someone in bad situation.
Such ayah's aren't talking about a physical illness, but are about ones mentality- if you realise something you have done is evil you must start to avoid it straight away but if you can't realise it being evil , then why will you start to avoid it?
So you start to avoid it when you realise it, even, later on and build up your taqwa - so you may put, such, it out of your life - the evil actions.
"Practice makes perfect"
Just an understanding.
But if food fasting helps us in any way then you can carry on fasting.......or course.
God Bless us.
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Greetings Progod,
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Because many have very weak Classical Arabic skills and a weak concept of the language in these times (including "Arabs".)
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Many here are trying to find alternative meanings to traditonal understandings, no matter what, even if the traditional understanding is correct, combining this with the first and with some's overcompensation for lack of Arabic knowledge with very fanciful interpretations and fabrications you have a recipe for disaster for people who have really basic knowledge of Arabic or none at all but who are still seeking the Quran.
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Those who have perverted hearts, God will lead astray. This is a fact. These perverted hearts seem to be as pervasive now (and here) as they were during the time of our last prophet and after he left this word to dwell with the Lord. Remember that back then they were Quran only as well, and they just had the Quran. Again, this combined with the above and with feelings of resent by some that God's message is in Clasisical Arabic (not their native languages), you have alot of people who want a stake in creating an innovative vision of what they feel Islam should be. They think they have a chance to do this here by misinterpreting Arabic on false premises purposefully and influencing the ideas of those who are not rooted in Arabic, want to come to the Quran and are very dissilussioned with traditional Islam and its scholars who claim to be the keys to the Quran and most knolwedgeable about Classical Arabic. This is a recipe for disaster and all of these ideas that have nothing to do with the Quran at all are actually taking people away from sound knowledge and the Quran by seeking to call to it and then wildly interpret it.
What about those people whose Arabic skills are great(er), but their skills of perceiving God's creation with the knowing of the heart is much less or perhaps non-existant?? There is a non-spoken language. The language of all that 'is'. We must take divine guidance as can understand it, and combine it with the knowing of the heart, and take a step back from it for a time, then at a later session, combine the two together to see if a burst of insight will be given to us to help us to 'see' more clearly. All the 'logical' linear thinking you could ever actively do, will never give you living, breathing knowledge of the Truth that is. This is something that we perceive, something that is bestowed upon us via an open heart.
The Great Reading is not grounded in the Arabic language. It's references are to all of creation and the Laws that govern how creation works. In this area, I am literally a professional. It is what I do by nature and by career choice.
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Peace Ilisa,
Although what you say sounds good it is a mixture of truth and falsehood. The Quran is grounded in the Arabic language the only way to access it is through the Arabic language. Once we can understand it in Arabic we see that its messages are eternal and speak to all mankind and can be translated. However, the Arabic language is the vehicle through which the Quran has come to us and without Arabic we cannot access the Quran. Knowing Arabic doesn't make us more spiritual or more apt to God's messages, no, that comes with a spirit of godliness (remember that the Quran says that those who study the messages of God's prophets (Moses, Jesus Solomon GOd bless them will also have guidance). This inclination does not come with an Arabic spirit, or a just a knowledge of Arabic. Remember God speaks to us through all of his creation and has found a way to try to bring us closer to reading his book in Arabic by bringing some sound understandings of its passages our way, and sparking our interests to read the book on our own. But what God has to say in the Quran, if we have faith in God and desire him, will be revealed to us if we study it, but the only way we can get a correct understanding of this text is through the Arabic language, which God has created and allowed to be preserved to offer us a perspective that we would not get through other languages.
Also remember that in the Quran God guides us by telling us to think and carefully study his ayaat, which are his utternances and his masterpieces and signs (creation). The Quran is like a boost for us to attain the right concepts of God and his creation saving us the time of sifting through all of those things that may distract us, and even without the Quran he would not have lead us astray if what we sought was Him.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace,
This is falsehood
The Great Reading is not grounded in the Arabic language.
The Quran is grounded in the Old Classical Arabic language.
All the 'logical' linear thinking you could ever actively do, will never give you living, breathing knowledge of the Truth that is.
Here you equate logical thinking with linear thinking, which is not true.
What about those people whose Arabic skills are great(er)
You would be suprised how weak these Arabic skills really are in these days, even among "the knowledgeable." These skills are not based on true Old Arabic but it Modernized or Islamicized Arabics which are based on Old Classical Arabic but are not the same and have diverged somewhat from true Old Classical Arabic. For instance study Wright''s grammar book and then talk to an edcuated Arabs about the words found in the Quran based on what you learn from this book and you will see how much the modern and islamic understandings have taken over and diverged the popular understandings of these words and how even the educated do not know many of the meanings found in Classical Arabic dictionaries for the words found in the Quran, nor do they understand these forms in their true meanings, they only understand the Modern and Islamic meanings associated with the words, despite the connotations of the forms.
So I don't disagree with you on the universal language of God almighty in the universe, but I do disagree with what I see you conveying about the unimportance/irrelevance of a grounded knowledge of Classical Arabic to understand the Quran, especially by pointing to what we would think are well-educated Arabs who in fact have been miseducated and do not know the connotations of all Arabic forms or how to distinguish the true meaning of a word based on root and form from a modern or Islamic shade of meaning that has been influenced by some historical phenomenon post-Quran. I'm sure you have seen me state how modern day Arabs have the worse concept of their language that I have every seen amongst any people as it concerns their language.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Greetings progod,
This is falsehood
The Quran is grounded in the Old Classical Arabic language.I beg to differ. To start with, I didn't write 'Qur'an' in my message. This is what you have written here. Look in my original message. I wrote 'The Great Reading', and I wrote this phrase in reference to 'the reading' of creation, the 'seeing' and understanding of what God has created -- of all that is of the natural world/universe as we know it.
Here you equate logical thinking with linear thinking, which is not true
I at no point wrote 'logical' = 'linear'. I wrote "'logical' linear", using 'logical' as an adjective for linear in juxtaposition to the opinion of those people who feel that perception with the heart is not 'logical.'
You would be suprised how weak these Arabic skills really are in these days, even among "the knowledgeable." These skills are not based on true Old Arabic but it Modernized or Islamicized Arabics which are based on Old Classical Arabic but are not the same and have diverged somewhat from true Old Classical Arabic. For instance study Wright''s grammar book and then talk to an edcuated Arabs about the words found in the Quran based on what you learn from this book and you will see how much the modern and islamic understandings have taken over and diverged the popular understandings of these words and how even the educated do not know many of the meanings found in Classical Arabic dictionaries for the words found in the Quran, nor do they understand these forms in their true meanings, they only understand the Modern and Islamic meanings associated with the words, despite the connotations of the forms. So I don't disagree with you on the universal language of God almighty in the universe
Yes, you and I agree 100% on these issues.
but I do disagree with what I see you conveying about the unimportance/irrelevance of a grounded knowledge of Classical Arabic to understand the Quran, especially by pointing to what we would think are well-educated Arabs who in fact have been miseducated and do not know the connotations of all Arabic forms or how to distinguish the true meaning of a word based on root and form from a modern or Islamic shade of meaning that has been influenced by some historical phenomenon post-Quran. I'm sure you have seen me state how modern day Arabs have the worse concept of their language that I have every seen amongst any people as it concerns their language.
The 'unimportance/irrelevance of a grounded knowledge of Classical Arabic to understand the Qur'an' was what came to your mind when you read what I wrote. I neither said this, nor intended this meaning.
What I was striving to convey was my protestation at the idea that we can come to the full meaning of the Qur'an through ANY kind of study of Arabic ALONE, without combining that knowledge with the perception of the heart or 'reading' creation as it were. I say this because I am of the opinion that all people, of all times, of all languages with an open heart and a quiet mind will be able to come to conclusions about what is 'good' and 'bad' to do, based on their own experiential knowledge of the living laws of creation that govern the flowing interaction of all living entities, energies, etc. -- as opposed to the intellectual study of what is fixed and 'dead' on paper, or in written books of any kind. I understand that God's laws are clear and easy, laid out for all. If the Arabic Qur'an was what was necessary to be successful in this life, then God has let generations and generations of humanity live and die without having a chance at success-- and this is highly unlikely.
I hope this helps. Thanks for the opportunity to clarify what was on my mind.
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If the Arabic Qur'an was what was necessary to be successful in this life, then God has let generations and generations of humanity live and die without having a chance at success-- and this is highly unlikely.
This is why you need hadeeth to some extent. Your brain is not going to tell you what the Qur'an says out of thin air.
Hussein