A Quran related question to Quranists
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Greetings (again!)
ILisa
For the first two tries, I see that you considered the spelling of my name unimportant, despite that fact being important to me. Did your mis-seeing and mis-spelling of my name diminish 'me' as a living, breathing being in any way? Of course not. Despite your mis-seeing, my true name and essence remained the same.
This Ayat
What ayat? confused
What about having a meeting with YOU instead, I hope we will enjoy our sitting
GASP! o
nope
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Navid
dear, Navid, Just answer me one question and I am all yoursDo you understand what is Deen?? I mean to say a person who talks about DEEN and then tells me don't mix history with it is Quite amazing?
I think you should refer to articles of ARNOLD YASEEN for that purpose, since he is a member of this site
Or better to Books of GHulam AHMED PERVAIZ (Pakistani) who explain in detail what a DEEN is?
For example in my discussion with Arnold he agreed that it is very important to know HOW DID THE PROPHET IMPLEMENTED DEEN IN THE FIRST ISLAMIC STATE.
Offcourse for that you have to first accept that Deen is a System that is to be implemented in our lives.
You use ahadith as a source of history, which is fine. I actually encouraged this. But then, simply BECAUSE of this, you choose to take it as a source of religious guidance/law outside of the quran, when THE QURAN says it is clearly explained/an explanation for all things/cites every example/asks to not follow anything as religious guidance after it.
456
These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?7750
Which Hadith, other than this, do they uphold?6114
YA Say "Shall I seek for judge other than God? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.Sher Ali Shall I seek for a judge other than ALLAH, when HE it is WHO has sent down to you the Book fully explained ? And those to whom WE gave the Book know that it has been sent down from thy Lord with truth; so be thou not of those who doubt.
Pickthall Shall I seek other than Allah for judge, when He it is Who hath revealed unto you (this) Scripture, fully explained ? Those unto whom We gave the Scripture (aforetime) know that it is revealed from thy Lord in truth. So be not thou (O Muhammad) of the waverers.
More verses to come
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Salaam Aleikum,
There is a big difference between researching history and try to learn from it and take man-recorded historical stories as pure Revelation coming from God.
History can advice us but can NEVER control us. We can learn from it but can never see it as divine law. Obeying the Prophet refers to obeying the authority in the Deen system, just as any constitution demands its people to obey the government unless the government goes against the constitution.
The Quran can prove its divinity through its context and containing no contradictions with reality.
Hadith are just one big contradiction with reality, thus we can only look at the story and see if we get a historical picture of the then present situation, we can then learn from it, just as we can learn from every history in any culture.
Knowing the history is background information which is needed to understand of accept the Message, just as we need to know the language, but also we need to know psychology, science, sociology, politics, history of religions and peoples, economics and so on. It is all part of the overall knowledge needed to see the big picture.
But history is always HIS-story, a story written through the eyes of the writer. This is why it can never be fully trusted and never seen as divine speech or acts.
This is what the Quran teaches us and warns us for. Learn from history, but always remind yourself it is not protected literature. I do believe rejecting all Islamic literature as false is an exegeration and accepting historical stories as divine or as descriptions of divine behaviour I see as Shirk, accepting authorities next to God's Authority(Quran).
The Quran is not bound by history, historical interprtetations, historical beliefs and ideas. The Quran is free from human chains...
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Um... The Muslim, Indonesian, and evolutionist part is correct. I'm not so sure about the biologist part, because I'm not directly involved in biological research at the moment (currently working in a different but related industry)
Okay, thanks. So since you believe in the evolution theory, would you happen to know or at least analyze where from and how humans evolved to where we are today or is it just hypothesis? Do you believe our anatomical structure, behavioural patterns and living conditions may change in future or is already changing miniscular which we may not realize at all? -
Okay, thanks. So since you believe in the evolution theory, would you happen to know or at least analyze where from and how humans evolved to where we are today or is it just hypothesis? Do you believe our anatomical structure, behavioural patterns and living conditions may change in future or is already changing miniscular which we may not realize at all?
Please open a new discussion thread in the Science section. This thread is about something else.
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Salaam
5233
Or they say He hath invented it? But they do not believe!
Am yaqu_lu_na tawaq walahu_ bal la_ yuminu_n5234
So let them then produce a statement/information/Hadeeth equal to it, if they were truthful
Falyatu_ bihadisim mitslihi in ka_nu_ sa_diqinThe Quran offers a challenge to come up with hadeeth equal to it. Some arose to the challenge. The books of Bukhari, Muslim, Dawud, Majah, Tirmidi, Nasaaie are the result of such rising to the Quranic challenge.
Whether these books are equal to the Quranic hadeeth is yours to judge.
For some followers of these books they are even better and trustworthy than the Quran.
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Please open a new discussion thread in the Science section. This thread is about something else.
Good deal! ~ http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15327.new#new -
Navid
You use ahadith as a source of history, which is fine. I actually encouraged this. But then, simply BECAUSE of this, you choose to take it as a source of religious guidance/law outside of the quran, when THE QURAN says it is clearly explained/an explanation for all things/cites every example/asks to not follow anything as religious guidance after it.
NAvid dear; have you read a word "Ijtehaad" in Quran??
Do you understand the meaning of it??
You inspired by the Moderate Mullah's of Quran alone have arrived at the conculusion that No religous guidance is needed after it. Then why Allah tells us to do "Ijtehaad"?
Definitely Allah is more Wise then these Moderate Mullah's, there are lots of matters that have been left for UMMAH to define for themselves as per their needs and time/situations, offcourse under the Basic guidelines of Quran.Therefore come out of the illusion of QURAN ALONE there is no such a thing, however GOD alone is the ultimate truth.
If you donot understand the above statement, feel free to have debate with me, any time.
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Arnold
Salaam Aleikum,
There is a big difference between researching history and try to learn from it and take man-recorded historical stories as pure Revelation coming from God.
Wa' Aleikum Salaam,
Agreed!
But remember the QURAN is also a man-recorded historical document
Arnold
History can advice us but can NEVER control us. We can learn from it but can never see it as divine law. Obeying the Prophet refers to obeying the authority in the Deen system, just as any constitution demands its people to obey the government unless the government goes against the constitution.
Correct! If the sayings of Prophet are in accordance with Quranic teachings, we must follow them; but before that we must be sure that the Prophet Actually said that. (this is a difficult job, and thus ends up with persons rejceting all the Islamic history as void an absurd school of thought)
Arnold
The Quran can prove its divinity through its context and containing no contradictions with reality.
Off course.
Arnold
Hadith are just one big contradiction with reality, thus we can only look at the story and see if we get a historical picture of the then present situation, we can then learn from it, just as we can learn from every history in any culture.
How can you say that? What is reality?
Not all Islamic history or forthat matter Hadith is ONE big contradiction with reality.Arnold
Knowing the history is background information which is needed to understand of accept the Message, just as we need to know the language, but also we need to know psychology, science, sociology, politics, history of religions and peoples, economics and so on. It is all part of the overall knowledge needed to see the big picture
Correct! that is what some Quranists donot understand.
Arnold
But history is always HIS-story, a story written through the eyes of the writer. This is why it can never be fully trusted and never seen as divine speech or acts.
Same is true with understanding of Quran, Maulana Maududi see's it with his eyes, with his knowldge and with his Sub-contiental background, So does Ghulam Ahmed Parvez, Rashad Khalifa does it with his senses, his background and his knowldge, Arnold does it with his knowldge and his back ground, and others with theirs.
You see with back ground I mean, for example when Quran says the Muslims must wear Modestly, To MAududi it is different from a person residing in Europe.
When I was in Japan, a family I visited in Narita, used to take "Ifuro" (bath in round tub with hot water) altogather, mother, daughter, father and "Ojisan" (grandfather), this was just normal for them, but for some one from Asia particularly from Sub continent it was X movie going on LIVE.
Therefore we try to explain Quran by our own understanding and back ground, some one living in Holland, cannot feel the way a person living in Afghanistan feels, PHYsical JIHAD is very near to culture of Afghanistan therefore their religon believes revolves around it, they mold Quranic Ayats according to it. The Dutch who were the biggest traders of SLAVES some century ago have changed know and give priority to Humantarian basis, thus they find all the Signs in Quran according to what they need.
Arnold
This is what the Quran teaches us and warns us for. Learn from history, but always remind yourself it is not protected literature. I do believe rejecting all Islamic literature as false is an exegeration and accepting historical stories as divine or as descriptions of divine behaviour I see as Shirk, accepting authorities next to God's Authority(Quran).
That is why I often say
"Ahl-e-Hadith are one extreme and Ayman is another, and extremism is bad for society"
By Ayman here I donot mean Ayman himself it is his Ideaology.
Arnold
The Quran is not bound by history, historical interprtetations, historical beliefs and ideas. The Quran is free from human chains...
I donot agree SIR!
Prophet was Human, the writers were Human, the compilers were Human, it is for Humans, and Humans interpret it according to their understanding, and that will continue.
Thanks.
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Brother Raj-ah. I would like to thank you for dodging and disregarding the signs/verses I posted. Indeed, the quran has predicted this
Navid
NAvid dear; have you read a word "Ijtehaad" in Quran??Do you understand the meaning of it??
You inspired by the Moderate Mullah's of Quran alone have arrived at the conculusion that No religous guidance is needed after it. Then why Allah tells us to do "Ijtehaad"?
Firstly, how can you utter such a lie and attribute it to God? Nowhere is this mentioned in the quran and this is why you failed to present a sign/verse. Ijtihaad is a HADITH concept. Secondly, according to your friends, it has nothing to do with guidance, it is for legal rulings in shariah law. Even assuming this were all true, this does not mean we must follow extra sources of text. These are two different things. Having an interpretation you think that's best that is solely based on the quran and follows ALL quranic concepts is different than following ADDITIONAL religious laws/guidance outside of the quran (ie humans).
Do not worry about what I am inspired by; I have verified everything and God is enough for me, but apparently not enough for you.
Definitely Allah is more Wise then these Moderate Mullah's, there are lots of matters that have been left for UMMAH to define for themselves as per their needs and time/situations, offcourse under the Basic guidelines of Quran.
Therefore come out of the illusion of QURAN ALONE there is no such a thing, however GOD alone is the ultimate truth.
If you donot understand the above statement, feel free to have debate with me, any time.
No such a thing as following the quran alone? Brother, there is such a thing and there always has been such a thing, just not in the realm of sunnism.
Indeed, it is not I inspired by "mullahs," but it is you. This is clear through you attributing lies to God
693
Who is more evil than one who fabricates lies and attributes them to GOD, or says, "I have received divine inspiration," when no such inspiration was given to him, or says, "I can write the same as GOD's revelations?" If only you could see the transgressors at the time of death! The angels extend their hands to them, saying, "Let go of your souls. Today, you have incurred a shameful retribution for saying about GOD other than the truth, and for being too arrogant to accept His revelations.378
Among them are those who twist their tongues to imitate the scripture, that you may think it is from the scripture, when it is not from the scripture, and they claim that it is from GOD, when it is not from GOD. Thus, they utter lies and attribute them to GOD, knowingly.More to come
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A Quran related question
Who was the person to whome "the Holy Quran " was revealed ?
When was the Holy Quran revealed ?
1100 yr back
2400 yr back
31000 yr back
41400 yr back
Any input from "Great minds" will be appreciated
I hope you will not "run away " from this question as usual.Salam.
I think you want to find out the date of the revealtion of The Quran just to justify the sunna and hadith - true of false?
Peace.
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Navid
Firstly, how can you utter such a lie and attribute it to God? Nowhere is this mentioned in the quran and this is why you failed to present a sign/verse. Ijtihaad is a HADITH concept.
Navid your reading is not yet complete, it seems, You called me a Liar, and this leads us to a new topic "Ijtihad"
OK!HEre is a sign
O you who believe, you shall obey GOD, and you shall obey the messenger, and those in charge among you. If you dispute in any matter, you shall refer it to GOD and the messenger, if you do believe in GOD and the Last Day. This is better for you, and provides you with the best solution.
O ye who believe ! obey Allah, and obey His Messenger and those who are in authority among you. And if you differ in anything refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if you are believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is best and most commendable in the end.
O you who believe, obey God and obey the messenger and those who are masters of their field amongst you. But if you dispute in any matter, then you shall refer it to God and His messenger if you believe in God and the last day. That is better and more suitable for knowing.
Meanwhile let me hear from you, what is your understanding of this verse, and if you even have slightest Idea for it, I will start a new thread on the topic "Ijtihad" where you can prove me a Liar, but if you don't then admit your mistake and never call anyone a Liar unless you cannot prove it.
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Navid
Navid your reading is not yet complete, it seems, You called me a Liar, and this leads us to a new topic "Ijtihad"
OK!HEre is a sign
O you who believe, you shall obey GOD, and you shall obey the messenger, and those in charge among you. If you dispute in any matter, you shall refer it to GOD and the messenger, if you do believe in GOD and the Last Day. This is better for you, and provides you with the best solution.
O ye who believe ! obey Allah, and obey His Messenger and those who are in authority among you. And if you differ in anything refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if you are believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is best and most commendable in the end.
O you who believe, obey God and obey the messenger and those who are masters of their field amongst you. But if you dispute in any matter, then you shall refer it to God and His messenger if you believe in God and the last day. That is better and more suitable for knowing.
Meanwhile let me hear from you, what is your understanding of this verse, and if you even have slightest Idea for it, I will start a new thread on the topic "Ijtihad" where you can prove me a Liar, but if you don't then admit your mistake and never call anyone a Liar unless you cannot prove it.
You keep skipping around from argument to argument without directly responding.
You said have you read a word "Ijtehaad" in Quran??
Do you understand the meaning of it??
You inspired by the Moderate Mullah's of Quran alone have arrived at the conculusion that No religous guidance is needed after it. Then why Allah tells us to do "Ijtehaad"?
Yet you have failed to present where "ijtihaad" is mentioned in the quran. I will leave you and others to come to your own conclusion. Instead of actually responding to the arguments, you clinged to one portion of my post.
As for the verses you posted (that have nothing to do with "ijtihaad", show me the connection between that and following religious guidance and law outside of the quran.
456
These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?7750
Which Hadith, other than this, do they uphold? -
O ye who believe ! obey Allah, and obey His Messenger and those who are in authority among you. And if you differ in anything refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if you are believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is best and most commendable in the end.
O you who believe, obey God and obey the messenger and those who are masters of their field amongst you.
Hmm... are you assuming then, that none of us 'here' amongst us are people in positions of authority or 'masters of their field'? Are you certain? Perhaps there are a few among us. Then what say ye? Which of us will you obey?
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Salaam
About 2000 years ago a man named Jesus was crucified in Golgotha in modern day Jerusalem. Billions of people believe this for the last 2000 years. A powerful religion was built around this incident; empires built and continents conquered. Millions have died and sacrificed their lives for the religion having roots to this incident. The eyewitness account of this incident is detailed and tens of thousands of books were written on this historical event. Even today billions relive and worship the man who died on the cross and also the cross he died. This is a piece of history with ramifications which changed the world we live in.
Then the Quran 600 years later says ?They killed him not, neither had they crucified him? with reference to the man supposed to have died ion the cross.
This is preposterous from the historical point of view and from the point of view of the Christians. With all that history against one sentence from a man who lived in the deserts of Arabia 600 years later.
Rajah,
You along with billions of Christians can ask this forum ?Just because the Quran says do we have to believe that Jesus was not crucified??
Or are you going to say ?If hadeeth agrees with what is in the Quran of non crucifixion of Jesus then we will accept it but if there are no hadeeth to support this we can not accept the Quran? .
Disbelief is what you get when you reject the Quran for man made lies and fabrications.
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Or are you going to say ?If hadeeth agrees with what is in the Quran of non crucifixion of Jesus then we will accept it but if there are no hadeeth to support this we can not accept the Quran?
Funny that he values the hadith more than the quran, and he doesn't even know it.
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NAvid
Funny that he values the hadith more than the quran, and he doesn't even know it.
Funny; he says what he knows not.
Navid
You keep skipping around from argument to argument without directly responding
.bravo bravo
ILiza
Hmm... are you assuming then, that none of us 'here' amongst us are people in positions of authority or 'masters of their field'? Are you certain? Perhaps there are a few among us. Then what say ye? Which of us will you obey?
What else do you accept from a person who is Quranist??
Navid, I understand you are not the right person to take the burden for discusion on "Ijtihad" but just to improve my own knowldge and discuss it with others I am going to open a new thread.
Warner
Rajah,
You along with billions of Christians can ask this forum ?Just because the Quran says do we have to believe that Jesus was not crucified??
Or are you going to say ?If hadeeth agrees with what is in the Quran of non crucifixion of Jesus then we will accept it but if there are no hadeeth to support this we can not accept the Quran? .
Disbelief is what you get when you reject the Quran for man made lies and fabrications
You and most of posters here are suffering with "HAdithfobia", Did I even mentioned Hadith in my discussion on this thread or brought any Hadith in Support of my argument.
It is just pure Non Sense on your end and on any one's who without reading the posts of opposing views, tries to bully along with his/her ideology.
Your non sense can just be revealed by a single question?
Who is Jesus?? I never heared or Read of Any JESUS? in Quran? I can give you one week's time to show me the word "JESUS" in Quran.
But that is not the way I argue, the childish way. You, Navid and some others are still at initial stage of learning, so are we, but we have learned that the GOd's message can be only understood by the Wisdom he has provided us, and Once one uses his or any AAlims wisdom to understand the word of Allah, that is according to his or that AAlims understanding, and it is based on experience and knowldge that person or Aalim Has.
So lets have a glass of vine and cheers.
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NAvid
Funny; he says what he knows not.Navid.
bravo bravo
Navid, I understand you are not the right person to take the burden for discusion on "Ijtihad" but just to improve my own knowldge and discuss it with others I am going to open a new thread.
D Whatever that suits you. You accuse me of being a liar when I was simply telling the truth and now you come back after a few weeks and use a subtle ad hom.
Nevermind the plenty of verses that go against this and you have not responded to
You, Navid and some others are still at initial stage of learning, so are we, but we have learned that the GOd's message can be only understood by the Wisdom he has provided us, and Once one uses his or any AAlims wisdom to understand the word of Allah, that is according to his or that AAlims understanding, and it is based on experience and knowldge that person or Aalim Has.
Oh yes, definitely. Using camel urine to cure diseases and stoning monkeys is the wisdom God has provided us. You are far ahead of us hail
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Navid
Whatever that suits you. You accuse me of being a liar when I was simply telling the truth and now you come back after a few weeks and use a subtle ad hom.
Nevermind the plenty of verses that go against this and you have not responded to
Again my dear friend you are caught "lieng" My last post was on September 13th and then on September 17th, that makes 4 days and not few weeks. rotfl
Which verses I have not responded to??Navid
Oh yes, definitely. Using camel urine to cure diseases and stoning monkeys is the wisdom God has provided us. You are far ahead of us
Regarding stoning of monkeys in detail it was discussed, so sorry I can't repeat it, read the Bukhari/ Mushrik thread.
Using Camel's urine to cure disease, well If prophet said it then definitely he was more wise then you, and there must be a cure in camels urine.Every year, doctors prescribe hormone replacement therapy (HRT) to millions of women suffering from menopausal symptoms. One of the most widely prescribed drugs for HRT is made from animal waste. The drug is Premarin, an estrogen-therapy drug manufactured by Wyeth Pharmaceuticals, which also produces Prempro, an estrogen/progestin combination. Both drugs contain horse urine, specifically pregnant mares' urine (PMU). This form of HRT has proved to be dangerous to humans, but the horses raised for their urine are kept confined and pregnant. Their foals often end up in the slaughterhouse.
More than 400 ranches in remote areas of North Dakota and Canada house thousands of pregnant mares who produce urine for Premarin and similar HRT drugs. For six months of their pregnancies, these horses are confined to PMU stalls so small that the mares cannot turn around or take more than one step in any direction. The animals must wear rubber urine-collection bags at all times, which cause chafing and lesions, and their drinking water is limited so that their urine will yield more concentrated estrogen