Virgin Birth of Isa
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Hi there,
I would like to add an idea that proves the Quran is really talking about a virgin birth. I don't know if someone said this before or not.
1914 And dutiful to his parents, and never was he a tyrant or disobedient. -John
1932 ?And to be dutiful to my mother, and He did not make me a rebellious tyrant.? -JesusCan I say checkmate? John had a father and a mother and was dutiful to both of them. Jesus can only be dutiful to his mother because he doesn't have a father! Unless you believe Jesus kicked his father's ass. laugh
Peace.
Peace Rami
Samia and Arnold ran away from answering many questions in this thread; now they are comming back with the same old lies.
Samia said
Please give me an example of God making exceptions to statements in the form of all X is Y, without explicitly showing immediately except. Otherwise, you are talking of contradictions in the quraan.And I said on July 16, 2008
(80-24
(86-5(80-25
(86-6(80-26
(86-7Then chapter 80 continue as follow
( ( ( ( ( (As you can note, both, the verses in chapter 86 and 80, are being constructed the same way with the same arabic words.
The exceptions for Chapter 80, where God shows how human food being created by rain and soil, are human food that comes from Sea (shrimp or Fish), Animals (beef or Lamb), and Birds (Pigeon or Chichen for example).The exceptions for chapter 86 are Jesus (even God did not say he is Human like us, but "God's Word" "Spirit from God" "Sign of God", Adam, and Adam's Wife.
After 4 month, Samia, can you reply?
Samia and Arnold, do you remmber this
I would like to share with you and everybody another Signs from the Quran regarding Jesus Birth without a Father.
There are two true stories, in the Quran, about Zakaria and Mary in Chapter 3 as followIn the Case of Zakaria
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While he was standing in prayer in the chamber, the angels called unto him "Allah doth give thee glad tidings of Yahya, witnessing the truth of a Word from Allah and (be besides) noble, chaste, and a Prophet of the company of the righteous." (3-39)In the Case of Mary
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Behold! the angels said "O Mary! Allah give thee glad tidings of a Word from Him his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah. (45)Conclusion
Both Zakaria and Mary were given glad tidings by the Angels.
Zakaria was about a Son by the name of Yahia and Mary a Son by the name of Jesus.
Yahia witnessing (Believing) the truth of a Word from Allah.
Jesus is a Word of Allah. Thus, Yahia will be a believer and witness of Jesus.In the Case of Zakaria
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He said "O my Lord! how shall I have a son, seeing I am very old, and my wife is barren? He said (the Angel) "Doth Allah do what he willth (wants, wishes)." (3-40)In the Case of Mary
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She said "O my Lord! how shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said (the Angel) "Doth Allah createth what He willeth (wants, wishes); when He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it `Be', and it is! (47)Conclusion
Zakaria said ?how can I have a Son when a) I?m an Old Man, b) My Wife is Barren (can?t have a baby).
Mary said ?how can I have a Son when a) No Men has Touched Me.
The Angel answered Zakaria by Saying ?Allah DO What He Wishes?
The Angel answered Mary by Saying ?Allah CREATES What He Wishes by using BE-AND- IT-IS? METHOD. (it is the same method he Created Adam with)THESE ARE TRUE SIGNS FROM YOUR LORD, IF YOU WISH, BELIEVE OR DISBLIEVE.
Do you remember this
In many verses, God ordered us to be kind to our parents, Father and Mother.
So, for example in chapter 19, there is a clear comparison between Yahya and Jesus regarding being kind to their father and mother
In the case of Yahya
(٢ (٣ (٤
(To his son came the command) "O Yahya! Take hold of the Book with might" and We gave him wisdom even as a youth. (19-12) And pity (for all creatures) as from Us, and purity he was devout (13) And kind to his parents, and he was not overbearing or rebellious. (14)In the case of Jesus
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"And kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable; (19-32)Now, why Jesus was only Kind to his Mother, which is against God?s order to be kind to both, Father and Mother. Is it because he never had a father to be kind to.
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Peace Rami
Samia and Arnold ran away from answering many questions in this thread; now they are comming back with the same old lies.Salaam belal
"lies" is too inappropriate a word for a discussion. I hope you change your aggressive language so that people can continue discussing with you without fearing this kind of bullying.
Now, what was your response to my question?(80-24
(80-25
(80-26
( ( ( ( ( (As you can note, both, the verses in chapter 86 and 80, are being constructed the same way with the same arabic words.
The exceptions for Chapter 80, where God shows how human food being created by rain and soil, are human food that comes from Sea (shrimp or Fish), Animals (beef or Lamb), and Birds (Pigeon or Chichen for example).These verses speak of what human can "see" of the development of their food, mainly the food they participate in its formation. It's not about the kinds of food they eat. They did not "see" how shrimps, chicken or cattle were ceated. The verse does not speak of how it is created. The word "created", which is the key word of this discusion, does not even show in these verses. Just because the verses rhyme in a way or another, that does not mean they have the same theme. In fact the two different sets of verses strt with "Let man see/look at". If you have your eyes open wide, you will understand that God is putting us as witnesses to His laws of Human creation and cultivaion (ayas)through testifying of what we literally participate in.
(86-5
(86-6
(86-7The exceptions for chapter 86 are Jesus (even God did not say he is Human like us, but "God's Word" "Spirit from God" "Sign of God", Adam, and Adam's Wife.
This is circular argument. Where do we understand from this verse that there's an exception for it? That's fabrication, just like adding the word "created" to chapter 80 above to decieve uninformed audience. And you dare call what I say "lies"?
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Mohsinnats simply means chaste women
siki
425
Let's tanslate this, with "muhsanaat" meaning "chaste""If they become chaste and then fornicated/committed zina then they will have half the punishment of the chaste women"!!
What's the meaning of "chaste women" according to you siki? -
Hi there,
I would like to add an idea that proves the Quran is really talking about a virgin birth. I don't know if someone said this before or not.
1914 And dutiful to his parents, and never was he a tyrant or disobedient. -John
1932 ?And to be dutiful to my mother, and He did not make me a rebellious tyrant.? -JesusCan I say checkmate? John had a father and a mother and was dutiful to both of them. Jesus can only be dutiful to his mother because he doesn't have a father! Unless you believe Jesus kicked his father's ass. laugh
Peace.
Peace Rami,
Again a very shortsighted argument. If the father of Jesus had died while he was young, then Jesus could not have been dutiful to his father. So your argument to use this as proof has no merit.
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Now, why Jesus was only Kind to his Mother, which is against God?s order to be kind to both, Father and Mother. Is it because he never had a father to be kind to.
Peace,
Shortsighted argument. If the father had died while Jesus was unborn yet or being a babe, he could never had the chance to be kind to his father. So again your argument has no merit.
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Peace all
Peace,
Shortsighted argument. If the father had died while Jesus was unborn yet or being a babe, he could never had the chance to be kind to his father. So again your argument has no merit.
Are you claiming that Jesus had a Father who died before Jesus was born? Are you Claiming that Jesus Father was among the righteous people?
As I taught (3-7) you before, when arguing about the Unseen, you need to support your argument with Well-established Quranic verses; otherwise, you are fabricating lies about God. Do you have evidences? will, I will answer for you.....NOSalaam belal
Now, what was your response to my question?
After 5 month, you are answering. That is how long did it take you to think and provide This answer? I think you need to take more time so you can provide a better one.
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Peace all
Samia, I think you forgot what did you ask me to provide, five month ago. Here it isPlease give me an example of God making exceptions to statements in the form of all X is Y, without explicitly showing immediately except.
And that was my answer
(80-24
(86-5(80-25
(86-6(80-26
(86-7Then chapter 80 continue as follow
( ( ( ( ( (As you can note, both, the verses in chapter 86 and 80, are being constructed the same way with the same arabic words.
The exceptions for Chapter 80, where God shows how human food being created by rain and soil, are human food that comes from Sea (shrimp or Fish), Animals (beef or Lamb), and Birds (Pigeon or Chichen for example).The exceptions for chapter 86 are Jesus (even God did not say he is Human like us, but "God's Word" "Spirit from God" "Sign of God", Adam, and Adam's Wife.
Just for the record ;D
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What's the meaning of "chaste women" according to you siki?
The Mohsinnats
is the title given by All mighty to all those women who do not belong to prohibited (hurmat) 14 in 4-22 ,4-23 and are desirous of protecting themselves from sexual acts other than sanctioned/authorised/legalised/prescribed by God, and we have a title for them,
""""chaste women"""" and you can find these women among believing, non believing, people of the book etc.
Any or all of these could be found in a bunch gathered as "Ma Malakat Emnakum" as well .MY mother /daughter/sister could be chaste women but are not" Mohsinnas" for me.
Proven fahishas or Zaniaas are deprived of this title, and hence from God's recommendation for marriage.
peace
siki
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The Mohsinnats
is the title given by All mighty to all those women who do not belong to prohibited (hurmat) 14 in 4-22 ,4-23 and are desirous of protecting themselves from sexual acts other than sanctioned/authorised/legalised/prescribed by God, and we have a title for them,
""""chaste women"""" and you can find these women among believing, non believing, people of the book etc.
Any or all of these could be found in a bunch gathered as "Ma Malakat Emnakum" as well .MY mother /daughter/sister could be chaste women but are not" Mohsinnas" for me.
Proven fahishas or Zaniaas are deprived of this title, and hence from God's recommendation for marriage.
peace
siki
Thanks for the reply
Then I have undersood you well. Would you now let's/me understand how this meaning fits in verse 425? -
Peace,
The Reading clearly mentions God's laws regarding human reproduction. Adam was shaped by God, and all other humans are Adam's descendants, born from the joining of a man and a woman. Jesus was no different, and he was a man, just like other men, born of a mother and father. And since God's way ("sunna" is unchangeable (4823), we can presume that He didn't make an exception with Jesus... The virgin birth doctrine is a concept inherited through Christianity, paganism, and superstition. These same people allege Jesus' divinity, a concept that is completely rejected in the Reading...
Also, the scriptures identify Jesus as the "mashiach"/messiah/annointed one. According to Jewish law, the mashiach was granted the throne of King David through the lineage of his FATHER, not his mother. So, if Jesus had no father, he couldn't possibly be the foretold Jewish messiah, and this conflicts with the Reading, which specifically refers to him by this title... Two of the many stipulations of the maschiach according to Jewish doctrine included being born of TWO PARENTS (a father and a mother) and his traceable lineage through his FATHER to the bloodline of King Solomon. Do you deny that Jesus was the messiah? If not, he had to have had a human father.
Peace,
Ahmad
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There are several other prophets whose fathers are not specifically mentioned in the Qur-an , for example, Nuh, Dawud, Ayyub, Musa, Harun, Zakariya, whose name exists in the list of 18 prophets in the above verses. Even though we don?t find the mention of fathers of these prophets we believe these prophets did have fathers. But in case of Jesus we make the exception that he did not have a father. We make this exception because the Christian teachings tell us that Jesus did not have a father, although time and again Bible refers to his father as a person named Joseph.
Forefathers of Dawud, Sulaiman, Ayub, Yousaf, Musa and Haroon is mentioned in verse 684, they were the posterity of Ibrahim. Salam upon all them.
O
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Perhaps does not mean fathers of them all. It means some from forefathers, and perhaps also refers to fathers and grandfathers of one's mother. When Syeda Maryam after the birth of Easa alahissalam comes back to her people with a child in her lap, she was addressed by people who knew her, new her father, mother, brother but they were not aware of any person who could be referredd as husband.
If it was known to people of her time that she had a husband what was so funny in it to come back with a child in lap that they should use such words? A married woman is addressed by her husband's name. They did know nothing about her husband and people after hundreds of years are so sure that she had a husband. Many people like to live with illusions.
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Peace,
We have been through these discussions a hundred times so at the moment I am not interested to start them again. But to the last arguments. Few people who try to discuss Jesus's story have really taken the effort to study 1st century Jewish theology. You ask why would they be surprised that she had a child? She is family of Aaron. In Jewish theology this means you are part of the Levi. A Messiah could only come from the David line according to their dogma. It seems they controlled the marriages and bloodlines. Mary probably married a person that wasn't royalty, for a royal family that is a disgrace. The word baghiyya contains this meaning, to go over the boundaries of custom.
The Christian records are corrupt Roman propaganda writings, so these cannot be trusted. And these even mention Jesus's father as Joseph. The Jewish Talmud written a century after Jesus wrote nonsense stories about Jesus and Mary as an attack against Christians, they didn't care about what the real story was.
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Peace all,
I want to make something very clear. According to Jewish Law, Jesus is NOT the mesiah whether he is born of a virgin or not for a hundred other reasons. Second, Jesus never claimed to be the messiah. Paul did. Third, the Jewish Messiah is a political Messiah not a spiritual one and should be anointed using olive oil. Fourth, the characteristics of the Jewish Messhiah is impossible to materialize eg. death will be abolished!?, there will be no wars....yeah right thats why the temple was levelled after Jesus died D. Fifth, the idea of a Jewish Messiah is actually a late political polemic written during the babylonian captivity to encourage Jews to build a Persian outpost in Palestine as a response to the Egyptians, thats why the Messiah must be a descendant of David(because babylonian Jews were fascinated by David- they actually elevate David like Sunnis elevate Mohammed). Sixth, the Quran contains numerous legends that can easily go under 'superstition'' and 'paganism'. According to the Torah, the Quran and the NT are complete falsehoods because they fail the criteria of a true prophet and a true Messiah(though impossible and false according to the Sadducees but accepted by the Pharisees which mean Persian- agents of the Persian Zoroastrian empire, thats why they believe in the afterlife and a universal God like Ahura Mazda and thats why they forged the Noahide Laws to hide the fact that the Book of Moses is actually a Monolatrous Henothiestic Polythiestic Book).
NB Did you know that there are many Messiahs in the OT eg. Cyrus.
Peace,
Rami
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Peace Rami,
So, are you implying that the Reading ("Quran" is a forgery? Do you believe it is divinely inspired, or is it a book completely written and inspired by a man?
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace Arnold,
Few people who try to discuss Jesus's story have really taken the effort to study 1st century Jewish theology. You ask why would they be surprised that she had a child? She is family of Aaron. In Jewish theology this means you are part of the Levi. A Messiah could only come from the David line according to their dogma. It seems they controlled the marriages and bloodlines. Mary probably married a person that wasn't royalty, for a royal family that is a disgrace. The word baghiyya contains this meaning, to go over the boundaries of custom.
You are exactly right. According to the ideology, Maryam married someone outside of the Levitical tribe, which was "unorthodox" in Levite traditions, especially in the Nazarene sect. The Nazarene sect actually controlled the bloodlines, and the Levite women dedicated to the temple were forbidden from marrying outside of their group. Since Joseph, the husband of Maryam, came from the line of David and Solomon, his marriage to Maryam was looked down upon, and Maryam broke the traditional custom... And yes, the "mashiach"/messiah could only come through the Davidic line, through King Solomon, and this lineage was based on the ancestry of the FATHER, not the mother. The Reading calls Esa (Jesus) the messiah on several occasions (i.e. 345), confirming the idea that he is the actual mashiach to the Jews. Therefore, this also implies that he fulfilled all the messianic stipulations, especially in terms of geneology, teachings, and practice...
Maryam belonged to a "royal" lineage, and she was expected to marry someone from the Levite tribe, not the Davidic line. That's why her family said that she had done something 'unexpected' (1927), instead of stoning her for committing adultery, which was forbidden according to Jewish law. They knew she didn't commit adultery. The Reading also gives an instance where God speaks to Jesus regarding His signs bestown upon him
GOD will say, "O Jesus, son of Mary, remember My blessings upon you and your mother. I supported you with the Holy Spirit, to enable you to speak to the people from the crib, as well as an adult. I taught you the scripture, wisdom, the Torah, and the Gospel. Recall that you created from clay the shape of a bird by My leave, then blew into it, and it became a live bird by My leave. You healed the blind and the leprous by My leave, and revived the dead by My leave. Recall that I protected you from the Children of Israel who wanted to hurt you, despite the profound miracles you had shown them. The disbelievers among them said, 'This is obviously magic.'" (5110)
Why didn't God mention anything about the 'virgin birth' here?
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace Rami,
So, are you implying that the Reading ("Quran" is a forgery? Do you believe it is divinely inspired, or is it a book completely written and inspired by a man?
Peace,
Ahmad
I believe the Quran is divinely inspired but the Bible a forgery. You can't have it both ways D.
GOD will say, "O Jesus, son of Mary, remember My blessings upon you and your mother. I supported you with the Holy Spirit, to enable you to speak to the people from the crib, as well as an adult. I taught you the scripture, wisdom, the Torah, and the Gospel. Recall that you created from clay the shape of a bird by My leave, then blew into it, and it became a live bird by My leave. You healed the blind and the leprous by My leave, and revived the dead by My leave. Recall that I protected you from the Children of Israel who wanted to hurt you, despite the profound miracles you had shown them. The disbelievers among them said, 'This is obviously magic.'" (5110)
Why is he called son of Mary. Why is his father not even mentioned by reference as a response to the Christians rather than going in circles?? He was concieved via the Holy Spirit D Amen. D
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Why is he called son of Mary. Why is his father not even mentioned by reference as a response to the Christians rather than going in circles?? He was concieved via the Holy Spirit D Amen. D
God both guides and misguides. There are several prophets mentioned in the scriptures, and their fathers are not many times not identified. So, this doesn't prove anything at all... Also, in the Biblical account, Jesus is depicted as a son of Joseph. Therefore, if Joseph died during Jesus' childhood, your point would also be irrelevant... The Reading doesn't say specifically that Jesus was literally conceived by the Holy Spirit. Rather, it clearly defines the reproductive process of all humans (children of Adam). Therefore, claiming that Jesus wasn't formed by this same process is an allegation that Jesus wasn't a man, which supports the Christian doctrine that he is the literal son of God. Is this what you're saying?
There are Gospel accounts that also confirm this ideology, such as the Gospel of the Ebionites. The belief that Jesus didn't have a human father is a doctrine of Christianity alleged in the Biblical account. So, if you believe the Bible is forged, then why do you believe in this concept? None of the other scriptures support this ideology at all, not the Qur'an, Tavrah, Injeel, Zabur, or anything else. The only book that does is the Bible, which you already said is a forgery... Just because the Reading doesn't say specifically who Jesus' father was doesn't mean he didn't have one. It also never says the name of Abraham's mother - does this mean he was somehow divinely produced by his father? In fact, it doesn't mention the name of Abraham's wife either (who the Bible identifies as Sarah, and also Hagar), even though it's pretty reasonable to assume that Ishmail and Isaac had a mother (or mothers). The name of Adam's wife (who the Bible calls Eve) is not even recorded in the Reading...
The scriptures also mention that Jesus is no more of a messenger than the other messengers (575), and a view of this is the realization that he was just as human as all other human messengers. This means he was conceived just like any other human, by the unification of a man and a woman.
Peace,
Ahmad
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God both guides and misguides. There are several prophets mentioned in the scriptures, and their fathers are not many times not identified. So, this doesn't prove anything at all... Also, in the Biblical account, Jesus is depicted as a son of Joseph. Therefore, if Joseph died during Jesus' childhood, your point would also be irrelevant... The Reading doesn't say specifically that Jesus was literally conceived by the Holy Spirit. Rather, it clearly defines the reproductive process of all humans (children of Adam). Therefore, claiming that Jesus wasn't formed by this same process is an allegation that Jesus wasn't a man, which supports the Christian doctrine that he is the literal son of God. Is this what you're saying?
There are Gospel accounts that also confirm this ideology, such as the Gospel of the Ebionites. The belief that Jesus didn't have a human father is a doctrine of Christianity alleged in the Biblical account. So, if you believe the Bible is forged, then why do you believe in this concept? None of the other scriptures support this ideology at all, not the Qur'an, Tavrah, Injeel, Zabur, or anything else. The only book that does is the Bible, which you already said is a forgery... Just because the Reading doesn't say specifically who Jesus' father was doesn't mean he didn't have one. It also never says the name of Abraham's mother - does this mean he was somehow divinely produced by his father? In fact, it doesn't mention the name of Abraham's wife either (who the Bible identifies as Sarah, and also Hagar), even though it's pretty reasonable to assume that Ishmail and Isaac had a mother (or mothers). The name of Adam's wife (who the Bible calls Eve) is not even recorded in the Reading...
The scriptures also mention that Jesus is no more of a messenger than the other messengers (575), and a view of this is the realization that he was just as human as all other human messengers. This means he was conceived just like any other human, by the unification of a man and a woman.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Why is he called son of Mary. Why is his father not even mentioned by reference as a response to the Christians rather than going in circles?? He was concieved via the Holy Spirit D Amen. D
peace