General Issues / Questions

Peace Beatnik, Is it too idealistic of me to hope for a second renaissance? It's happening as we speak. Look around. You're a part of it. Thanks for the link. May peace be upon you, Tay

How do we present Islam based on GOD Alone and Quran Alone without being perceived as another sect within Islam?? This is our challenge when it comes to presenting the True Islam. Good question. Simple answer is by not rejecting everything of the past because they are old, by not trying to scare them away by insisting to accept your theory because it is new. This is as respectful as it gets. No disrespect to any of the sects new or old is intended.

Peace KGB, I have no problem whatsoever with anyone questioning anyone else, on any grounds. What I have a problem with is disguised or open insult. Key words such as cult do nothing for building bridges of understanding. In fact, they have the opposite effect. Check any thread on this forum and view the evidence. Whenever there is a peaceful disagreement, it stays that way. Whenever insults are included, the insults escalate and mulitply and the debate goes downhill, completely fruitless, and ends. No offense intended. It's just the way I see it. Peace, Tay

You are always free to do it whenever you think that I am refuting for the purpose of personal vendatta or you can just do it right away after accusing me of everything. roll

Peace Layth Sounds good. pz

That is so tasteless.. but really funny, haha

This is great. I was actually looking for a french translation ... just for comparision, etc. ) French translation added http//yaqb3.lrhazi.com/ Search not available yet for this translation, nor is it ready for the transliteration. Translation "stolen" from http//islamfrance.free.fr/coran.html Tip If the site seems to hang after you submitted a query, try STOP button in your browser then resubmit again. Please let me know if this happens often. Mohamed~

Peace Natu, The problem that this friend could be having is that the Quran is a book that teaches people once they accept it. Therefore once we accept the Quran as being from GOD we accept it as being true in contents. As for your friend he doesn't accept that explanation. He requires a scientific proof or something very simple that requires him not to believe but rather base his actions solely on reason. Personally I prefer this method, about leading life and living for a reason rather than doing things by blindly following something without sufficient reason. I think he needs to witness something that is incredible or have a personal experience while seeking truth. I think that the miracles present within the Quran are amazing, the detailed embryology and accurate astronomy etc Also the controversial claims for 19 patterns should also be studied. These are signs and he needs signs. Or maybe he wishes not to be Guided. Or I think that anyone who seeks in a truthful and honest and non-ignorant way should find these signs towards the Divine. BTW superstring theory doesn't really support the BIG BANG at the moment but it agrees on the expanding part. Also the fibres or 'strings' of energy are supported by the QUran in a certain verse. These existence arguements can go on forever! Nural

Salaams silent, somethings which i have learnt over the year through my research with the help of the topics at free minds. Those are the succesfull who; Believe in God and the Last Day. Fulfill Haqooq-Al-ebad (Obligations towards fellow human beings ) - righteousness. Description Haqooqul Ebad, Haqooquz Zojain, Haqooqul Walidain, Haqooqul Aulad .e.t.c Fulfill Haqooq Allah (Obligations to God - is just one?.The encouragement of Haqooq al-ebad.) That is through advicing/debating/arguing/ ?Hajj ,and lastly (when there is a need) by the use of force-Hajj-e-Akbar. If you find you are off this track at any time ? then you must abstain/fast for a number of days so you may get back on track. But we should always Serve Allah by serving his attributes/or doing as his attributes. And this can be done far far better through education hence education is of primary concern. Focus on the Masjid al haram ? law ,prevents us breaking it thus stops us from taking everybodies rights. To be an angel is better then to be a shaitan/devil. Healthy foods essential for ones betterment. Hygien ? important for all socialising. Salaat ? is part of righteousness ,and it is looking into the views of different peoples for the betterment i.e discussions/making of agreements/making of comittments for common good. Ati Azakaat ?fullfillament of the comittments agreed to in the salaat. Salaams.

Complusion in 'Deen' includes compulsion in 'law'. Deen includes 'law.' It is a comprehensive term that includes 'philosophies, belief systems, creeds, religions, orders, policies and laws.' Forgive my use of the term Koranist but it fits my purposes here. Here it means 'one who adheres to the Koran.' In a Koranist society where there are people who are non-Koranists among them there are 4 cases that are listed by number A Koranist commits a crime against a Koranist 2.A non-Koranist commits a crime against a Koranist 3.A Koranist commits a crime asgainst a non-koranist 4.A non-koranist commits a crime against a non-koranist Solutions according to case numbers are as follows Koranic policy is used to resolve the issue Koranic policy that speaks about the enemies of koranists is to be used to resolove the issue. Koranic policy that speaks about koranists and thier relations with non-koranists is to be used to resolve the issue. The non-koranists are left to resolve the issue between themselves as they see fit; unless they ask for arbitration from koranists. In which case koranic policy about peace-making/arbritration is to be used to resolve the issue. It violates the Koranic policy of 'laa ikraaha feedeeni' to impose Koranic policy onto those who do not choose it. Godbless, Anwar

Peace be upon you Olusanya, First, thank you for demonstrating the description of one who is peacefully submissive by trying to bring unity to the discussion. I agree. Yet in this particular debate I see no end. Thats why we must have faith in the unseen D Actually, I don't even think there is any further debate. We are just waiting for Feb 19th to see the prophecy. My issues were people thinking they needed to join 19.org to gain some momentum. I have given my warnings about that based on my understanding. The only other debate I was interested in was salaat, but I have no interest anymore, because Edip has no time. So I will just continue with the discussions and debates already going on in that thread. It is obvious that you and brother Edip do not agree, yet neither seems to want to leave it alone, so time is spent on a debate that has no resolution, which makes it more of an intellectual distraction than a discussion leading towards truth. I will discontinue right now. In the first ayat you posted the debate is to demonstrate truth. I cannot agree with your use of the word debate in 2197 because I do not see the use of it in the context of the subject of the verse . How do you understand the word "hajja"? I have a list somewhere on this forum of both words that are normally translated as "argue". They are "hajja" and "jidala". "Hajja" has been shown to mean "debating based on proof", where as "jidala" is "arguing with no evidence from Life(al kitaab)". I will try to find where I posted them. It was quite a while ago so the thread might be far down on the list. I have followed the discussion between yourself and Edip, and it seems obvious to me that the two of you will not agree on this particular point , so my question is... Why continue to argue the point? You both have demonstrated your points very well, but you do not agree that what the other presents is truth. Well, I intend to stop here, but the reason for continuing to debate, if there was proof coming from both sides, would be to see how far the others argument could stand, but I do not see any proof coming, so I have no problem stopping. Both of you have provided what you deem to be proofs, but you do not agree with each others proofs, so the discussion falls under the discription of baseless. Why? because by rejecting each others truth, you have rejected the base of each others points. We cannot both be presenting "truths", we both SHOULD be providing evidence, so we can get to the truth. We have to wait for Feb 19th to get the rest of Edips evidence. I have observed many of the discussions within this forum and many fall into this category, because if we do not accept the interpretations or proofs that someone offers and they do not accept ours then continuing to discuss the subject will only lead to further disagreement which, in my humble opinion, is not the goal of debate or discussion. I agree, debating should be fruitful, but many are just too afraid to be wrong. I hope that I have shown that I am willing to admit when I have been wrong and continue to do so. Many of us have become just as bad as the "traditionalists/ritualists"... meaning... we are refusing to allow individuals to reach their own understanding of Islam, considering them wrong if it is not in agreement with our way of thinking or practice. Allah is the Guide, and Hu guides each of us according to our individual constitutions, levels of understanding, determination in study, etc. As bothers and sisters who practice Islam we must allow each other to come into our own understandings, in our own time. Otherwise we are just imitators. I guess we have a difference of opinion on "hajja"(debating). There are levels of understanding, those that are on higher levels must not conceal what was inspired to them. WHat is our purpose here if not to study and debate? Again , I liken it to martial arts, you have to practice your craft. I think the issue might be HOW LONG do we debate, because Musa certainly debated the magicians, Abraham certainly debated his fathers traditions, etc. Noah debated wrong (called to the God) day and night in secret and public. Unless it is though that my position is wrong, then I don't see where I error. P.S. I think your interpretation of the symbolism in the Matrix series is profound! I saw the movies as a journey in the realization of our essential being but you took it to a whole new level. Thanks! Thank you for the kind words, there are actually two threads, the very long one was something I wrote a while back, but my understandings have increased since then. So everything I wrote might not be exactly the same as before. I was thinking it is based on the book we call "Quran" because there are indeed references to certain verses, but it is really deeper than that.

Peace Ayman! Peace brother Zlatan, I don't see why the post was rejected. Ask for an explanation by emailing SRI-Admin. You can also just resubmit the post with the word "islam" sprinkled in several places to pre-empt the irrelevancy excuse for rejection roll . nice tip! D http//groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/browse_frm/thread/1ec38ef8cf914501/1cdc33b413916ade?_done=%2Fgroup%2Fsoc.religion.islam%3F&_doneTitle=Back+to+topics&_doneTitle=Back&&d#1cdc33b413916ade heres the moderators excuse...he allegedly didnt recognise that the post was about Islam...however this is an excellent proof of the arabisation of the god and his light which is prevalent among the traditionalists.. Peace and all best wishes, Zlatan

belive in the tauheed This is most important. Follow not the religous laws of man.

Peace Layth, I definitely can help with the design mechanics. I can't help much on the art thought ops. I would like to discuss that further with you. Feel free to PM me whennever you want. I live in the GMT+1 time zone. is there any time you can be avalaible for a live chat? Farouk

Peace Edip and All, Thank you for your kind inquiry ) I have been out of town (in Qatar) for the past 5 days and will be going back tommorow (Tuesday)...This is the first time I get a chance to access the net, so I am trying to catch up on e-mails and the such. I appologize for not stating upfront that I was travelling... God willing you and your familes are all in good health. Layth

Salaams,All, i do believe you all have answered the post the same way-and i do accept we can't label such a person or the label may become permanent whilst the descriptions may disapear over time. Salaams and thanks .

Peace be upon you Ayman and Wakas, I agree with you and I think that the implication is that in your study you would have to reexamine the entire concept of "7ajj"/debate as a civil concept and not a religious (clergy-based) concept. It is because "religion" and "civility" have been made seperate, just like psychology , health, science, etc have all been fragmented and made to appear different , that we have the troubles understanding this sysem of order(deen). Instead of ORDERED, everything seems unordered. We have seperated what the God commanded to be joined. SPiritual cultivation joins all of those subjects into one. I look foward to hearing more of your position Wakas as you continue studying. Debate(hajj) keeps people accoountable, we should see more of it in governing systems, not excluding the common man from the debate.

peace be upon you Farouk, Perhaps the problem may lie in the subtle yet crucial distinction between free-will and free-choice. Please see the following articles by brother Ayman http//www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/freechoice.htm http//www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/thetrust.htm Wakas

Salaamun alaikum Zlatan, Very good observation mq...the whole code story is about the decontextualising...its a heap of decontextualisations piled up upon another heap of decontexctualisations, piled up upon an another heap... et cetera... ad infinitum...this is among the most important reasons why it shouldnt be accepted, and not some animosity toward numbers, any personality or whatever... Thank you. All I was doing was repeating the arguments raised against 19ism from the debate in ropelist made in 1999. I'm very happy that debate took place because it exposed 19ism quite clearly to me. I believe these false stategies of approaching the book can easily be exposed by compiling all verses and seeing what contradicts (4/82 being the internal principle involved). Sunnism, Shiaism, 19ism and even certain free-minds opinion, imho, fails this analysis. thanks and peace.

Salaams latif, you are right it is the setting of the sun when and if the sun is mentioned-i was merely giving an example of lane. The traditional interpretation is the animals falling -similer to the sun going down physically.But to me , it is the end of the day thingy-the sun setting,which i interpret as old age with respect to the life lived. Salaams.