General Issues / Questions

tajmaha "Those uses of ma are basic knowledge in the Arabic language. They are taught to and known by every Arab student in intermediate grades ( for 11-14 year old children), in ordinary public schools in the Arab World. Now how would I or anybody else in this whole world overstrech'MA'!? It is not even a verb where it may have a long list of derivatives with meanings that can be so different from each other. LOL! Hmmm...this being the case then, how did your beloved Yusef Ali and the rest of the Arab and non-Arab Qur-an translators, miss, what according to you, is so basic and fundamental that, it is taught at grade school level? Doesn't say much for their scholarship, eh? Please, post the name of a Qur-an translator who, translates the ayats under discussion as you do. Rob, asserts that..."the answer would be NO the previous scriptures are not corrupt... god confirms this in the quran, that the previous scriptures are true scriptures". Why don't you correct this obvious lie? Not to do so would make you a hypocrite and kufr. What's it going to be your....piousness?

Peace brothers and sisters, I have been trying to understand something which has been itching at the back of my mind recently; it has most likely been addressed elsewhere. My question is, if God portrays himself as "The Most Merciful" throughout the Quran how can there be such thing as eternal damnation. It does not make sense to me that eternal damnation can take place for the wrongdoings committed in the short time span we have on earth, especially from The Most Merciful. I myself would never condemn someone to eternal damnation for the sins committed within this short lifetime, so how can "The Most Merciful" say that such a thing will happen. If God is the most merciful than his Mercy should be greater than any mercy that a human can fathom. If I can fathom that its unmerciful to condemn someone to eternal damnation, would that not make me more merciful than what is written in the Quran by God? Furthermore, anything that God States in the Quran is bound to happen, it cannot just be a play on words or a metaphor, if God States that such eternal damnation exists than it has to come about. Its just a question I've been asking myself. And still I see no changes can't a brother get a little peaceIt's war on the streets & the war in the Middle EastInstead of war on poverty they got a war on drugsso the police can bother me

http//news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/3238556.stm Just so people like DoctorNo could get a idea of what is going on on his side of the fence since he works hard at keeping oil interests Mascaraded without realizing it. 'Domestic terror' "Violence against women and girls is the most pervasive human rights challenge of our times," said Amnesty International. According to the organisation, 120 million women around the world are subjected to brutal female circumcision every year and in the United States alone 700,000 women are raped annually. Amnesty stresses that the crime cuts across cultural and religious boundaries and political, social and economic status. "For many women their home is a place of terror, even in rich societies," it says. The organisation cites examples of violence from around the world In Bangladesh, 50% of all murders are of women by their partners In Britain, there is a call for help from victims of domestic violence every minute According to the World Bank, at least one in five women and girls has been beaten or sexually abused at some point of the life.

002.062 YUSUFALI Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. Doesnt that suggest that in Mohammad's time you could believe in the Jewish or christian scriptures and be saved? Does this mean that sometime in the 7th century there are genuine copies of the Torah & Gospels?

I want to hear good things in the quran. Lets start about love. What do you think are the great lessons of love according to the quran?

Salaamun Rob I asked you IS THE BIBLE ERROR/MISTAKE-FREE, THAT IS, IS THE BIBLE FREE OF FLAWS/CONTRADICTIONS, HENCE...PERFECT? Your response was "the answer would be NO the previous scriptures are not corrupt... god confirms this in the quran, that the previous scriptures are true scriptures". If your answer is correct, then, when will you explain the following contradiction between the Qur-anc and Biblical accounts of the flood? Gen.6 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. Gen.7 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth. And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood. And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth. And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth. Now, according to this scripture, within the Torah, there was a world-wide flood, however, Al-Qur-an says this Surely We sent Nuh to his people saying Warn your people before there come upon them a painful chastisement. And certainly We sent Nuh to his people, so he remained among them a thousand years save fifty years. And the deluge overtook them, while they were unjust. Allah, punished the people of Noah with flooding NOT the entire earth! So, I ask you...was the Torah... altered? When are you going to stand by your statement and answer this question to you? If you can't back it up, then at least have the fear of Allah and some manhood, and just admit that you are wrong on this account. If you won't admit your error, then, in reality, you commit kufr (the concealing of the truth).

Can I please get some information on meaning of jihad in the Qu'ran as well as Arabic references to the word "jihad" in Qu'ran? I always thought jihad meant to strive or struggle. So is jihad used in Qu'ran to also mean war? Thanks. Peace to you all.

peace i got an email this mornin notifyin me of a private message in my FM inbox but when i went to check, there was no new message. so if somebody did send me said private message, please send again. thanks

Salaamun all Up until few years ago I used to think my faith in Islam was not based on blind imitation but rather a result of years of investigation and research. The fact that I have read a lot of books on Islam written by people whose thoughts I approved of and delving into philosophies of other writtings emphasized my conviction that I had found the truth. All my research confirmed my faith. Just like other Muslims I used to believe that to learn about anything one has to go to the source. Of course the source is Quran and the books written by Muslim scholars. Therefore I felt no need to look elsewhere in order to find the truth as I was convinced that I had already found it. As Muslims say ?Talabe ilm ba?d az wossule ma?loom mazmoom?. The search of knowledge after gaining it is foolish This is a foolish idea. Wouldn?t it be prudent to widen our research and find out what other people have to say Going to the source makes sense only in scientific matters, because scientists are not ?believers?. They do not say something because they have blind faith. Scientists make a critical analysis of the evidence. It is very much different from religious approach that is based entirely on faith and belief. I suppose it is my acquaintance with the western humanistic values that has made me more sensitive and whet my appetite for democracy freethinking, human rights and equality, etc. So when I read again Quran I have came across injunctions that are not al par with my newfound humanistic values I am distressed and feel very uncomfortable to read teachings like these. After having lived for many years in the West and being received kindly by people of other religions or of no religion, who loved me and accepted me as their friend; who let me into their lives and their heart. I can no more accept the following mandates of Quran as the words of God. Q.58 22 ?You will not find any people who believe in Allaah and the Last Day, making friendship with those who oppose Allaah and His Messenger?? Q.3 118-120 ?O you who believe! Take not as (your) bitaanah (advisors, consultants, protectors, helpers, friends, etc.) those outside your religion (pagans, Jews, Christians, and hypocrites) since they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse. Indeed We have made clear to you the aayaat (proofs, evidence, verses), if you understand. Lo! You are the ones who love them but they love you not, and you believe in all the Scriptures . And when they meet you, they say, ?We believe.? But when they are alone, they bite the tips of their fingers at you in rage. Say ?Perish in your rage. Certainly Allaah knows what is in the breasts (all the secrets).? If a good befalls you, it grieves them, but some evil overtakes you, they rejoice at it?? Q.5 51 ?O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as awliya? (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but awliya? to one another?? I have found the above statements false. The evidence for me was in the Bosnia and Kosovo crisis where Christian countries waged war against another Christian country to liberate Muslims. Many Jewish doctors had volunteered to help the Kosovar refugees despite the fact that during the WWII the same Albanian Muslims took side with Hitler and helped him in his holocaust against the Jews. I can no longer follow such manates I find in the quran and I am ashamed to be part of islam anymore. I also find the following completely against my conscience. I love all humanity and wish everyone to be happy in this world and forgiven in the next. But my holy prophet bade me not to seek forgiveness for the unbelievers even if they are my parents and beloved ones. Q.9 113 ?It is not for the Prophet and those who believe to ask Allaah?s forgiveness for the mushrikeen, even though they be of kin, after it has become clear to them that they are the dwellers of the Fire (because they died in state of disbelief).? Quarn is full of outrageous thinks like those that give me clear proof that i need to leave Islam and seek a more understanding religion. To force people to denounce their own family to me means there are many problems in Islam and many questions need answers I also regard the cowardice of our clerics in pushing their heads firmly in the sand and not confronting the misguided and the extremists amongst us as an affront to all that I regard as holy. If they have no courage to declare the Islamic suicide terrorists as apostates then perhaps they would be good enough to declare me as one for I would rather burn in the eternal flames of Hell than share a Paradise with the likes them. There are unlimited number of acts of kindness that we humans can use to help each other and make this world a better place for everyone yet you do not see these in the Quran. How can the Quran be a perfect guidance from god when it lacks so many important issues?

q_l_l l * Salaamunn 3alaykumm, Peace Be Upon You Blessed Eed Al Fitdr to all the brothers and sisters and many happy returns. A brief fractional study on the word MUBAARAK In Al Arabiyyatea Al Foss-ha (the Arabic of the Quran) the word MUBAARAK is an adjective that means Blessed. The correct pronunciation would be MUBAARAK/MUBAARAKK ONE MUBAARAKKANN Qf (THE LETTER QAF) Wa Nazzaln Mina As-Sam'i M'an Mubrakan Fa'anbatn Bihi Janntin Wa abba Al-adi YUSUFALI And We send down from the sky rain charted with blessing, and We produce therewith gardens and Grain for harvests; PICKTHAL And We send down from the sky blessed water whereby We give growth unto gardens and the grain of crops, SHAKIR And We send down from the cloud water abounding in good, then We cause to grow thereby gardens and the grain that is reaped, TWO MUBAARAKKONN/UNN Al-'An`m (CATTLE, LIVESTOCK) Wa Hadh Kitbun 'Anzalnhu Mubrakun Muaddiqu Al-Ladh Bayna Yadayhi Wa Litundhira 'Umma Al-Qur? Wa Man awlah Wa Al-Ladhna Yu'uminna Bil-'khirati Yu'uminna Bihi Wa Hum `Al? altihim Yufi?na YUSUFALI And this is a Book which We have sent down, bringing blessings, and confirming (the revelations) which came before it that thou mayest warn the mother of cities and all around her. Those who believe in the Hereafter believe in this (Book), and they are constant in guarding their prayers. PICKTHAL And this is a blessed Scripture which We have revealed, confirming that which (was revealed) before it, that thou mayst warn the Mother of Villages and those around her. Those who believe in the Hereafter believe herein, and they are careful of their worship. SHAKIR And this is a Book We have revealed, blessed, verifying that which is before it, and that you may warn the metropolis and those around her; and those who believe in the hereafter believe in it, and they attend to their prayers constantly. THREE MUBAARAKKINN I couldn't find in the Quran any Ayah that has the word MUBAARAKKINN The colored endings are the ending sounds. The ending sounds are changeable according to the place of the word in a sentence, but the form of the word remains the same in two cases case TWO and case THREE, while in case ONE we attach/join the letter = ANN to the letter KA , so it will look like this and will give the sound KAN However, in certain letters, we just write the letter = ANN after the word without joining it with it. When writing in Arabic we use tiny signs above or under the last letter of the word to determine the correct ending sound which will change for grammatical reasons. Notice the tiny sign above the letter , and the tiny sign above the letter which will give the sound KONN and the tiny sign under the letter which will give the sound KINN The a in the ending sound an/ann is the same as the sound an in the word Vatican. The o , u in the ending sound onn/unn is the same as the sound o in the preposition on, or u in the word citrus. The i in the ending sound in/inn is the same sound as i in the preposition in. In the word the letter KA is the one that would be marked to determine the ending sound. Those 'tiny' signs are also used above or under the rest of the letters (not the last letter) in any given word. Changing their places will change the meaning of the word. The word will look the same but with different order of the 'tiny' signs. The letter KA is formally (in the Alphabet) called KAF The 'tiny' signs are much more than the ones I mentioned above. Translations from http//www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/ Transliterations from http//4bm.com/quraanLanguages/English/B&WPrintT_T/QuraanIndexTT.htm Wa Al Hamdu Le Ellahe Rabbe Al Alameen And Al Praise Be To Allah, The Cherisher and Sustainer Of The Worlds Salaamunn He-Ya Peace It Is

Salaamun to All I am compelled to expose Rob's dishonesty in the concerning matter Rob, on his thread, "THE PROBLEM WITH THIS MOVEMENT", argues that the prior scriptures have not been corrupted. I've argued that they are corrupted per the following verses There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, "That is from Allah," but it is not from Allah. It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it! While the above verse describes the taking out of context the scriptures, the following verses illustrate the actual changing of the text. Of the Jews there are those who displace words from their (right) places, and say "We hear and we disobey"; and "Hear, may you not hear"; and "R??n?"; with a twist of their tongues and a slander to Faith. If only they had said "We hear and we obey"; and "Do hear"; and "Do look at us"; it would have been better for them, and more proper; but Allah hath cursed them for their Unbelief; and but few of them will believe. 513 But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them - barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds) for Allah loveth those who are kind. Jeremiah 88 "How can you say, `We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false PEN of the scribes has made it into a LIE. Despite these verses, Rob, maintains that the prior scriptures are intact. To this, I asked Rob, the following question b]IS THE BIBLE ERROR/MISTAKE-FREE, THAT IS, IS THE BIBLE FREE OF FLAWS/CONTRADICTIONS, HENCE...PERFECT ? and, of course, he answered "the answer would be NO the previous scriptures are not corrupt... god confirms this in the quran, that the previous scriptures are true scriptures" Rob, is illustrative of the problem among Muslims and that is...we are not honest about Allah's Qur-an. We must begin to get past pride/ego/fear and support the truth. The reference by Wakas, on "critical thinking" is just excellent!

Salaamun to All While debating whether or not Muhammad, was sent to a people who, prior, had no messenger sent to them, I came across the following ayats, which, in my opinion, totally invalidate the use of the so-called hadiths Muhammad, as a source of spiritual guidance, growth, and development ( of course they are invalid because they are not error/mistake/contradiction-free and, for the rational minded, that should be sufficient enough to discard them wholesale) Thou wast not on the Western side when We decreed the Commission to Moses, nor wast thou a witness (of those events). 2845...but thou wast not a dweller among the people of Madyan, rehearsing Our Signs to them.... Nor wast thou at the side of (the Mountain of) T?r when We called (to Moses). Were ye witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? Behold, he said to his sons "What will ye worship after me?" They said "We shall worship Thy God and the God of thy fathers, of Abraham, Ismail and Isaac,- the One (True) God. To Him do we submit (in Isl?m)." You will notice that Allah, makes it clear that Muhammad, was not physically present at any of the events or places mentioned and, what knowledge he had of them, was from Allah directly. We (Bukhari, Muslim, Ahmed, Tirmidhi, Sunnan, Dawud et al), likewise, were not physically present at any of the events or places concerning Muhammad and, we have NO DIRECT KNOWLEDGE of what actually transpired during his time other than what is record between the "two binders"/Al-Qur-an. Btw, I know this is a Qur-an Only site, I'm simply presenting this to further develop the arguement against the use of the so-called ahdiths of Muhammad.

Salaamun to ALL THIS THREAD IS DEDICATED TO TAJAMAHA'S MISTRANSLATIONS. WILL UPDATE THIS THREAD AS NEED BE. tajamaha, contends that the following ayats are mistranslated and don't mean what they say (in the bold) In order that thou mayest warn a people, whose fathers were not warned, and who therefore remain heedless (of the Signs of Allah). Thou wast not on the Western side when We decreed the Commission to Moses, nor wast thou a witness (of those events). But We had not given them Books which they could study, nor sent messengers to them before thee as Warners. But We raised up (new) generations, and long were the ages that passed over them; but thou wast not a dweller among the people of Madyan, rehearsing Our Signs to them; but it is We Who send apostles (with inspiration). Nor wast thou at the side of (the Mountain of) T?r when We called (to Moses). Yet (art thou sent) as Mercy from thy Lord, to give warning to a people to whom no warner had come before thee in order that they may receive admonition. If (We had) not (sent thee to the Quraish),- in case a calamity should seize them for (the deeds) that their hands have sent forth, they might say "Our Lord! why didst Thou not sent us an messenger? We should then have followed Thy Signs and been amongst those who believe!" tajamaha, argues ( you can see her arguement on the thread "THE PROBLEM WITH THIS MOVEMENT" pgs, 6 and 7) There is no Ayah that verifies what you have stated. If you mean Ayah in Surate YA-SEEN (YA-SEEN), then you should realize that it has been wrongly translated, otherwise such wrong translations contradict Allah's Plan of sending Massengers, Prophets and Warners in all the previous times and generations, whether known to us or not. Litunthira qawman ma onthira abaohum fahum ghafiloona From http//www.islamicity.com/ps/default.asp?inc=PhoneticSearch.asp YUSUFALI In order that thou mayest admonish a people, whose fathers had received no admonition, and who therefore remain heedless (of the Signs of Allah). PICKTHAL That thou mayst warn a folk whose fathers were not warned, so they are heedless SHAKIR That you may warn a people whose fathers were not warned, so they are heedless From http//www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/036.qmt.html The words in red are the wrong translations. ma has three uses. One is the negative, for example Ma Faa'altuhu, meaning I didn't do it. Two is as a relative pronoun that which or what , for example Ma Fee Al Samaawaate Wa Ma Fee Al Ardh, meaning that which/what is in the skies and in Earth. Three is as a question-word, for example Ma Be Yadika? Meaning What is in your hand? fahum ghafiloona Fa it serves many purposes, in this case it is a conjunction to show reason for. Humm/Homm They, them. Ghafiloona male proper plural for Ghafill which means inattentive, unaware, preoccupied, careless and few more words that give a similar meaning. So the correct translation would be That thou mayst warn a folk of that which/what their fathers (ancestors) had been (also) warned, for they are indeed inattentive/heedless ( or it could mean, for they are unaware 'of their guilt'. ) So because Allah is All-Just, their fathers/ancestors were essentially warned but they, heedlessly, turned away from the warning. The following Ayat are few of many that give similar meaning Fatir (The Originator of Creation) Inna arsalnaka bialhaqqi basheeran wanatheeran wain min ommatin illa khala feeha natheerun From http//www.islamicity.com/ps/default.asp?inc=Phoneticsearch.asp 035.024 YUSUFALI Verily We have sent thee in truth, as a bearer of glad tidings, and as a warner and there never was a people, without a warner having lived among them (in the past). PICKTHAL Lo! We have sent thee with the Truth, a bearer of glad tidings and a warner; and there is not a nation but a warner hath passed among them. SHAKIR Surely We have sent you with the truth as a bearer of good news and a warner; and there is not a people but a warner has gone among them. From http//www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/035.qmt.html Al-Qasas (The Narration) Wama kana rabbuka muhlika alqura hatta yabAAatha fee ommiha rasoolan yatloo AAalayhim ayatina wama kunna muhlikee alqura illa waahluha thalimoona Fromhttp//www.islamicity.com/ps/default.asp?inc=PhoneticSearch.asp YUSUFALI Nor was thy Lord the one to destroy a population until He had sent to its centre a messenger, rehearsing to them Our Signs; nor are We going to destroy a population except when its members practise iniquity. PICKTHAL And never did thy Lord destroy the townships, till He had raised up in their mother(-town) a messenger reciting unto them Our revelations. And never did We destroy the townships unless the folk thereof were evil-doers. SHAKIR And your Lord never destroyed the towns until He raised in their metropolis a messenger, reciting to them Our communications, and We never destroyed the towns except when their people were unjust. The Ayat you pointed are also mistranslated. The mistake in the Ayah in Surate AL-QASAS ( THE STORY, STORIES ) is the same as the one in the Ayah in Surate YA-SEEN (YA-SEEN). The ma has been yet again wrongly translated, it has been considered a negative while it should be considered a relative pronoun. The Ayat prove that. The people complained about what was given to Prophet Muhammad (PP&BBUH), for they wanted the same as what was given to Moses, which they themselves had rejected before! The Ayat speak for themselves. Another mistake is the meaning of the verb ATAA, YA'ATEE. The contemporary meaning is to come, but in the Foss-ha, the Arabic of the Quran, it is mostly used to mean to bring or to give, or to deliver. For example EATA'A AL ZAKATT. Sometimes, but not so often, it is used to mean to come in the Quran. Since you don't know Arabic, try to read in transliteration the Ayat from till the end of and see how many times the verb ATAA and it's derivatives appear, and see their usage. You will find out for yourself that it couldn't have meant to come, at least not in this case. According to my Arabic sources she is totally incorrect, what are thoughts of those who speak Arabic here? UPDATE 12/19/03 tajamaha's, latest foray into mistranslating/re-writing Al-Qur-an, is as follows 'Afaghayra Allhi 'Abtagh akaman Wa Huwa Al-Ladh 'Anzala 'Ilaykumu Al-Kitba Mufaalan Wa Al-Ladhna 'taynhumu Al-Kitba Ya`lamna 'Annahu Munazzalun Min Rabbika Bil-aqqi Fal Taknanna Mina Al-Mumtarna (114). The Arabic Word Mufassalann , does not mean detailed. Mufassalann has many meanings in Arabic, which can be translated to their matching Engish words, such as the meaning showing for example, or exact or exactly, or perfectly cut, or perfectly designed, or perfectly compartmented, etc.., however, none of its meanings would be detailed, if you mean by detailed Characterized by abundant use of detail or thoroughness of treatment, or to report minutely and distinctly. tajamaha, do you think, for once, you could support your position with a scholar who, says fassalann doesn't mean detailed?

by Ahmed Amr Every major Jewish organization in America was represented at a strange rally in Washington, DC.? If nothing else, the rally offered conclusive evidence that American Jews (and the Falwell Christian zealots) are content to be a constituency for repression. They talked about freedom and liberty and human rights and security and democracy and peace. But not for the Palestinians. Just their people. They talked about victims of random violence. But no Palestinian victim was worthy of mention. Just their people.? They defamed the Palestinians in speech after speech as mere clones of Bin Laden and the crowd responded with approval. So called 'Christians' offered scorn for their co-religionists in Bethlehem and pledged their allegiance to Sharon and Netenyahu. On a day when the details of Sharon's most recent war crimes are coming to light (at the least in the British press), they fouled the air with acrimony and lies and fabrications. They applauded themselves on turning out in such numbers to publicly endorse war criminals.? In front of a crowd of Israel Firsters, Netenyahu publicly insulted every European and accused them of anti-Semitism for daring to embrace the Palestinian struggle for freedom. Congressmen and Senators lined up to plead with the crowd to finance their campaign because they 'stand with Israel.' Speaker after speaker, most of them representing major influential American Jewish organizations, including Congress, went to the podium to laud the repression of the Palestinians. No mention was made of Israel's sacred rites of brutality. The fresh crimes in Jenin and Nablus and Bethlehem and Ramallah went untold.? Netenyahu even had the audacity to claim that the Palestinians were the first people to ever resort to terror in their desperate fight for freedom. How convenient for him to omit mentioning that Begin blew up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem in 1947 and committed atrocities at Deir el Yassin. Does the ex-Prime Minister deny that Shamir was an assassin or that Sharon is universally disdained as a war criminal for Qibya, Sabra and Shatila and, now, Jenin. Every speaker equated America's fight against terrorism with Israeli repression in the West Bank and Gaza. To demonstrate how rabidly racist this crowd was, the most moderate of the speakers was Paul Wolfowitz, a neo-conservative Israel Firster. For bewildering reasons, Wolfowitz gets a check from the American government and was supposed to be delivering a message on behalf of President Bush. Suffice it to say, this was a Netenyahu crowd and Wolfowitz was duly booed and hissed. But the most disgusting aspect of the rally was the willingness to sully the memory of the victims of the 911 atrocities.? They had the Chutzpah to equate the Taliban with the Palestinians. When every American with common sense knows that it would be cruel and defamatory to equate the Afghans to the Taliban. Sharon was Bush. Arafat was Bin Laden. Palestinians were just terrorists. Jewish Settlers did not exist. Arbitrary collective punishment was not being inflicted on the Palestinians. Israeli War crimes were just rumors. Israel was America's best friend. Guliani, obviously a poor student of history, lauded Israel for its role as an ally in the Gulf War. What role? Are American Jews playing stupid or just blind with bigotry? All you have to know is that the President of the Conference of Major Jewish Organizations, Mortimier Zuckerman, had a hand in coordinating this American Jewish hate rally where a demented extremist like Netenyahu was the featured speaker. American Jews ought to be ashamed of themselves to stand up and rally for the cause of ethnic cleansing in a distant land.? Netenyahu actually mentioned Ghandi and Martin Luther King in his speech. Has he completely lost his sense of decency? Would Martin Luther King approve of Israeli crimes against the Palestinians? Would the followers of Ghandi and King ever vote for a notorious war criminal like Sharon? The problem in America today is not anti-Semitism.? The vilest bigots in this land are the leaders of the American Jewish community. Let them stand behind Sharon's crimes. Let them indict their whole community with the stain of Qibya, Sabra and Shatila and Jenin. History is a great teacher. We have yet to see if this is good for the Jews? But make no mistake, this rally was certainly about taking a wicked stand against the liberty of the Palestinian people. In a few years, they will all be claiming to have taken a stand against Israeli war criminals, just to save their stake in the infotainment business and reclaim their self-promotional designations as 'liberals' and 'progressives' . But as of April 15, 2002, they all look like a bunch of bigots to me. On tax day, their obvious agenda was to extort more of our tax money for their darling war criminals in Israel. But at some point in the not so distant future, American Jews will need to share the burden of guilt for each and every crime inflicted on the Palestinians. They will have to admit their role in covering up and sanitizing Israeli war criminal. They will have to explain why they stood besides thugs like Netenyahu and Moritimier, the publisher of the Daily News and US and World News Report. And they will not only have to explain it to Palestinians and Arab-Americans, they will have to explain themselves to every American and they will have to explain themselves to their own children. Even many Israelis will be clamoring for an answer.? As for the Congressmen and Senators who defiled America with their presence at this hate rally, they will have to consider whether a seat in the Knesset would be more appropriate given their warped political agendas. Hillary Clinton, a woman who casually dines with avowed ethnic cleansers, was there. As was Barbara Mikulski, a Democrat from Maryland, who said "The United States and Israel stand shoulder to shoulder in the war on terrorism. We both have suffered terrible losses, and we have both decided to fight those who dare to attack our people."? The order of the day was to reduce the Palestinian/Israeli conflict to terms that fit neatly with Sharon's agenda to defeat the Palestinian people in their struggle for liberty.? Pulverizing the Palestinians with daily acts of brutality and humiliation was linked to America's struggle against 'terror.' Decent Americans should pay close attention to those aligning themselves with Sharon and other Israeli war criminals.? As Mark Twain noted almost a century ago, Congress is the only distinctly criminal class in these United States.? What you can pay a Senator or a Congressman to do will blow your mind. Believe it or not, they will subsidize war criminals all too willing to blow out the brains of an innocent Palestinian child.? And the American Jewish lobby is all too happy to pay them for their errands. So, let the Yiddish supremacist games go on.? At the end of the day there will be a free Palestinian State.? The Palestinians would do well to start recording the role American Jews played in tormenting their people. It is a story every American should examine. Mr. Ahmed Amr is Editor of NileMedia.com in Seattle and a regular contributor to Media Monitors Network (MMN).

When we think gangster, hood, or wiseguy, we often associate these characters with such names as Capone, Luciano, or even Corleone. However, when organized crime reared its ugly head in the late 1920s in Brooklyn, at the foundation were men like Meyer Lansky and Ben Siegel--both Jews. Rich Cohen's romantic account of Jewish gangsters, Tough Jews, brings to life the story of Jewish involvement in the world of organized crime. Cohen persuasively achieves his objective by recounting the stories he heard from his father, who grew up with his friends (including broadcaster Larry King) at the end of the gangster era in Brooklyn, finding heroes in men like "Kid Twist" Reles and Bugsy Goldstein. The intriguing tales Cohen heard, although slightly embellished over time, offer a rare glimpse into a world that can barely be related to today's generation of Jews living in America. These Jews went to prison for committing violent felonies, not white-collar crimes, and got the chair for it. Inspired by their stories, Cohen went on to conduct extensive research through old journals, police records, and court reports to uncover the real stories behind the tales he heard as a boy. Cohen warmly discusses his father's fascination with these powerful, charismatic figures, and openly envies his experiences at a time before Jewish people lived under the debilitating shadow of the Holocaust. In addition, Cohen shows compassion for the need of his father's generation to look up to "someone who gives them the illusion of strength." --Jeremy Storey

http//www.zundelsite.org/english/debate/debatetoc.html http//www.zundelsite.org/english/dsmrd/dsmrdtoc.html Dont forget the INDIANS http//www.dickshovel.com/crimes.html

Despite all their money these people - on the whole where essentially 'mafioso' types and thugs (which can be divined from their distinct manner of speaking which sounds like a New York City Jewish gangster). Note that the Jewish book "The Jewish Almanac", Bantam Books, 1980, p.58, under the title "The Jewish Underworld American Jewish Gangsters", wrote "It would not be an exaggeration to say that their influence on organized crime in the United States during the 1920?s and 1930?s rivaled, if not exceeded, that of their Italian counterparts." The following list was primarily compiled from the book "The New Crowd The changing of the Jewish Guard on Wall Street" by the Jews Ehrlich and Rehfeld. The older Jewish generation of "german" Jews called 'Our Crowd' (some of these 'german' Jews were already firmly established before the American Civil War! But many became prominent just after the Civil War - many of these Jews profitted heavily from the slave trade in the Americas). ? Alfred Ochs (NY Times 1848 etc.) Seligman - Hellman (Wells Fargo & Lehman) Goldman Sachs Warburg Schiff Loeb Ochs (of Tennessee) Alfred Huger Moses (southerner jew) Adolph Lewisohn John Loeb Stone Hamill Hentz Sidney James Weinberg Frank Atschul Arthur Levitt Sr. I.W. Harper (bourbon) Jesselman Ullman Robert Berhard Phillips Englehard Margarate Ryan (daughter of Otto Kahn) Lee Radziwill The 'newer' Jewish generation of "Eastern European" Jews called 'The New Crowd'. They migrated to the US in 2 major exoduses 1) in the early 1900's 2) just after WWII 3) after the collapse of the Soviet Bloc (these particular Eastern Jews are not mentioned in the book and are not officially 'new crowd' Jews although they come from the same origins). Charles Bluhdorn (Gulf & Western) Sanford I. Weill (American Express, Travellers Group, Shearson-Lehman) Peter Cohen Armand Hammer (baking soda tycoon) Felix Rohaytn (pimp, panderer and political/economic deal maker) Alan Greenburg Ira Harris (Wall Street thug) Andre Meyer ('french' jew) Bruce Wasserstein Jerome Kohlberg Joseph Flom Martin Lipton T. Boone Pickens Carl Icahn Henry Kravis Saul Steinberg Lewis Glucksman Ivan Boesky Martin Siegal Michael Milken Belzbergs ('canadian' jews) James Wolfensohn ('australian' jews) Schroder (London merchant bankers) Carl Mueller Jon Rotensreich Lewis Ranieri Edmond Safra (International banker and 'lebanese' jew) Pritzker Crown Martin Siegel Jerome Kohlberg Henry Kravis George Roberts Fred Joseph Michael Milken I.W. 'Tubby' Burnham Robert Maxwell (aka Ludwig Hoch 'czech' jew - later masqueraded as 'english' jew) Marty Lipton ('poison pill') Donald Drapkin Lord Weidenfeld (an 'english nobleman' jew) Alfred Kingsley Ronald Perelman Sir James Goldsmith (another 'english nobleman' jew) Erwin Jacobs Bernard Baruch (a lone wolf Wall Street thug) Samuel Bronfman (Seagrams empire) David Sarnoff (RCA records) Marshall Cogan Arthur Carter I.W. Burnham Roger Berlind Muriel Siebert (the first established jew female Wall Street thug) Meshulam Riklis (israeli jew) Martin Davis Merv Adelson (Lorimar) Eli Broad Oscar Wyatt Sr. Sol Linowitz Rabbi David Gordis (yes rabbis are thugs with kosher seals of approval) Robert Freeman Tim Tabor Martin Siegal Richard Wigton Victor & Steve Posner (russian jews) Jacques Bemberg (another doppleganging jew) Baron Harry Openheimer (South African diamonds) Alvin Einbender Jerome Kohlberg (LBO leveraged buy outs - a Jewish corp raider thug) Lewis Rudin Irving Shapiro (former DuPont & 'Industrial Policy Group' thug) Roone Arledge Clay Felker Shulman Max Frankel (NY Times Editor) Joyce Purnick & Paul Marks - (jewish Eugenic Schemers)

Although I have respect for many Jews and contribution to World culture and heritage, I also think that many among politicians, businessmen and criminals of Jewish descent from Russia, Israel, USA, and Ukraine are on same side, these guys don't care much in which country they were born, they are big conformists BUT wherever they end they keep strong relations with other Jews in other parts of World. Case of MARK RICH is great example. He was on FBI and Interpol most wanted list, Clinton pardoned him because Barak phoned him on last day of Bill's mandate in White House. Rich became billioner when SSSR fall apart, he earned enourmously much $ for trading cheap oil from Russia, today this business is hands of Russian Jews - Fridman&Aven... Anyway, I believe in scenario that wealthy Jewish comunity in USA sponsored Russian Jews to buy corporations, media and politics after colaps of SSSR. Especially oil industry. These Jews are suspicious to me Ukraine Surkis, Rabinovich, Mogilevich... Russia Berezovsky, Gusinsky, Fridman (born in Ukraine?), Aven, Primakov (born in Ukraine), Kirienko, Gajdar,Chubais, Zhirinovski( born in Kazakhstan), Nemtsov... USA Soros (born in Hungary), Rich (born in Belgium) , Kissinger (born in Germany), Brzezinski (born in Poland), John Deutsch&Tenet (CIA), Albright (born in Czechoslovakia), Rubin... WORLD BIGGEST CRIMINALS Mogilevich, MARK RICH

ews in earlier demonstration in solidarity with Arabs in France By Hadi Yahmed, IOL Paris Correspondent PARIS, October 16 (IslamOnline.net) - In an unprecedented event, a thousand French Jews Wednesday, October 15, urged to have Israeli Premiere Ariel Sharon prosecuted for his ?criminal policies? against Palestinians, and supported the notion of a Palestinian state with occupied east Jerusalem as its capital. In a strongly-worded statement entitled ?Another Jewish Voice?, the signatories said they are against the oppressive practices by the Israeli army in Palestinian-ruled areas. ?Israelis will never enjoy peace or even a future for their country unless they set on the negotiating table and settle a compromise with the Palestinians,? read the statement, signed by politicians, doctors and legalists. It warned that Israeli actions against the Palestinians ?could end up with their perpetrators standing before the International Criminal Court?. Belgium's highest court ruled on February 12 that Sharon and a former army commander, could face war crimes charges once he leaves office. Palestinian survivors of the 1982 Sabra and Shatila massacres also attempted last year to indict Sharon, who was then a minister of defense, for ?war crimes? committed against them almost 20 years ago. The statement carried the French Jews? denial that the Israeli government should act on their behalf and their backing to efforts for ?realizing peace, justice and equality in the face of the criminal policy of Sharon?s government?. They also took aims at control of the French political scene by the pro-Israel extreme rightist groups. ?These groups point a finger of anti-Semitism at their rivals when it comes to criticizing the Israeli government or demanding it to comply with U.N. resolutions,? read the fiery statement. The Jewish figures called for the holocaust not to ?be exploited in any way, or be used for justifying any similar persecution?. It also slammed the Palestinian attacks against Israelis and the Palestinian powers? opposition to the existence of Israel. Four Basic Principles The Jewish figures underpinned in their statement four basic principles for peace to prevail between Israel and the Palestinians. ?Palestinians should have the right to restore their land occupied by the most powerful army in the Middle East,? read the first principle. ?They also have the right to enjoy all of their rights entitled under the U.N. resolutions, including the establishment of their own state?. The third principle calls for Jerusalem - now occupied by Israel - to be a capital shared by both Israel and this coming Palestinian state. ?Fourth, the Palestinians have the right to seek the return of their refugees at a time of negotiations on their return to homeland or fair compensations to be offered in return for those who wish so?. The Jewish figures affirmed that they adopt such principles, as they themselves had suffered persecution. Many of them said that they belong to families, whose members were victims of the Nazi holocaust. The appeal came a few days after nine Palestinians were killed, including two children and two teenagers, and about 80 injured during an Israeli incursion in Rafah that began on Thursday, October 9. Some 1,500 people were left homeless as a result of this several days aggression.

Editorial - The New York Post - October 2, 2003 The next time you hear the Palestinians and their supporters bemoaning how Israel's determination to defend itself against terror has "crippled" the Palestinian economy, consider a new report from the International Monetary Fund. The IMF recently disclosed that its own audit uncovered the fact that Palestinian Authority President Yasser Arafat between 1995 and 2000 diverted fully $591 million from the PA budget into a special bank account under his personal control. That's nearly $100 million a year! Talking about hitting the lottery. According to the IMF's Karim Nashashibi, the money - which came from tax revenues collected by Israel and turned over to Arafat - was used to invest in 69 domestic and foreign commercial companies, whose actual owners were not disclosed. (Arafat's investments, by the way, returned a profit of $300 million. Not bad for a Marxist revolutionary.) This at a time when, as one member of the Palestinian Legislative Council complains, "the Palestinian people are starving and the universities are bankrupt." But while Arafat has never used such funds for a personally luxurious lifestyle, neither has he allowed them to be used as originally intended - to create a viable Palestinian social-welfare infrastructure. Indeed, Arafat has long allowed Hamas to build and maintain such institutions - which are then used as recruiting stations for suicide bombers and other terrorist murderers. Actually, the IMF report is hardly surprising - it merely confirms what has long been known about the corrupt nature of Arafat's would-be state. Back in 1998, a European Union audit disclosed that $20 million in Egyptian funds meant to build low-income housing was instead turned into a luxury apartment complex that was given over to top PA officials and Arafat acolytes. Last year, a former Arafat treasurer charged that Arafat had taken more than a half-billion dollars in international aid and transferred it to his personal accounts; an Israeli intelligence report estimated Arafat's assets at $1.3 billion spread across the world. Forbes magazine, in a more conservative estimate, placed Arafat's net worth at $300 million, making him one of the richest world leaders. In fact, Arafat is little more than a greedy vulture preying on his own people. Every industry in the PA is a monopoly controlled by Arafat henchman; these concerns, 27 in all, set inflated prices for the average Palestinian and require kickbacks from anyone looking to do business in the West Bank and Gaza. Little wonder, then, that prices for basic consumer goods in Arafat-controlled territories have quickly tripled and small-business owners have found it impossible to operate. The IMF pronounced itself "concerned" by its auditors' report and has asked the Palestinian Authority for an explanation. But the G7, meeting last week in Dubai, called on world nations to "increase and accelerate their assistance provided to the Palestinian Authority." Yet with the PA totally under Arafat's thumb - following his successful ouster of Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas - that would do little more than pump billions more into a cesspool of corruption. Enough, already. Bush makes more lol