All religions are okay?
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Salamun 'alaikum,
peace
Are all religions okay so long as..........
From my point of view, there's no such thing as religions. Religion is a term created by human to differentiate them self which is from my understanding is another act of polytheist as backup by ayaat below
3031-32 Turn to Him, and be aware of Him, and hold the bond, and do not be of the polytheists. From those who have divided their system and become sects, each group is happy with what it has.
4213 He has decreed for you the same system He ordained for Noah, and what We inspired to you, and what We ordained for Abraham, Moses, and Jesus "You shall uphold this system, and do not divide in it." Intolerable for the polytheists is what you invite them towards. God chooses for Himself whoever He wills; He guides to Himself those who repent.
Allah introduce us through messenger to a system of life called dien.
For a single individual a dien can be interpreted as a way of life
For more than one person a dien can be interpreted as system of life that govern their life using Kitab as THE ONLY source of law.religion, democracy, secularism, communism, capitalism, liberalism, Vox populi, vox dei (The voice of the people the voice of God) etc are OPPOSITE of dien
Just a little bit of OOT
I like this quote
Nec audiendi qui solent dicere, Vox populi, vox Dei, quum tumultuositas vulgi semper insaniae proxima sit
And those people should not be listened to who keep saying the voice of the people is the voice of God, since the riotousness of the crowd is always very close to madness
is a similar like this ayaat below
6116 And if you obey most of those on the earth they will lead you away from the path of God; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.
the people are
- Peaceful,
- Truthful,
- Kind.
hmm
You do not need religion to achieve peacefulness, truthfulness, and kindness for single individual but you certainly need dien to achive those if you want apply it into a nation.
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Salamun 'alaikum,
From my point of view, there's no such thing as religions. Religion is a term created by human to differentiate them self which is from my understanding is another act of polytheist as backup by ayaat below
3031-32 Turn to Him, and be aware of Him, and hold the bond, and do not be of the polytheists. From those who have divided their system and become sects, each group is happy with what it has.
4213 He has decreed for you the same system He ordained for Noah, and what We inspired to you, and what We ordained for Abraham, Moses, and Jesus "You shall uphold this system, and do not divide in it." Intolerable for the polytheists is what you invite them towards. God chooses for Himself whoever He wills; He guides to Himself those who repent.
Allah introduce us through messenger to a system of life called dien.
For a single individual a dien can be interpreted as a way of life
For more than one person a dien can be interpreted as system of life that govern their life using Kitab as THE ONLY source of law.religion, democracy, secularism, communism, capitalism, liberalism, Vox populi, vox dei (The voice of the people the voice of God) etc are OPPOSITE of dien
Just a little bit of OOT
I like this quote
Nec audiendi qui solent dicere, Vox populi, vox Dei, quum tumultuositas vulgi semper insaniae proxima sit
And those people should not be listened to who keep saying the voice of the people is the voice of God, since the riotousness of the crowd is always very close to madness
is a similar like this ayaat below
6116 And if you obey most of those on the earth they will lead you away from the path of God; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.
You do not need religion to achieve peacefulness, truthfulness, and kindness for single individual but you certainly need dien to achive those if you want apply it into a nation.
According to the quran
- There those who serve Allah(adopt peacful, truthful and a helpful ways) by choosing to serve humanity.
- Those who don't serve Allah(don't adopt the peaceful,truthful, and a helpful way) but choose to serve the select few(because of their ill ways). They are kufar and when they start to practice their ill ways they are classed as Mushriks(they are their to harm humanity but serve a select few).
I haven't checked but i doubt you will find any verse in the quran where it says "The Kufar and the Mushriks" check it.
Deen is simply fulfillment of your obligations to men.
Religions exist although they may not provide any benefits to anyone but as long as those people are fulfilling their obligations to humanity then there can't be any harm although there is no benefit neither.
peace
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Simple, its very sad that because you want to hold a particular view, you pay little attention to what Quran says. 19/88-91 tells you the total anger of God to whomever says He has a son.
Can you find ANY OTHER crime which has statements like seas with burst forth, mountains falling to utter ruin etc? I highly doubt it. But its there in 19/88-91 for saying Allah has taken a son.
So i leave you with your views.
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Simple, its very sad that because you want to hold a particular view, you pay little attention to what Quran says. 19/88-91 tells you the total anger of God to whomever says He has a son.
Gods anger descends on men when they call themselves god or sons of god and bahave wickidly - like pharoeh did, but jesus isn't here to show such wickidness, so people can say foolish things.
I have heard of Muslims Alims say things about Their prophet, so what ! It doesn't change the good things he did, for God knows.
Can you find ANY OTHER crime which has statements like seas with burst forth, mountains falling to utter ruin etc? I highly doubt it. But its there in 19/88-91 for saying Allah has taken a son.
So i leave you with your views.
you are welcome, but be careful of the things you are following they may not be what they seem to be.
using lanes/qd;
1988
They say "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!"
1989
Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!1990
It is a wicked quality bursting in it and cleaving a sunder the disposition and causing to fall down the great/ stubborn to ruin.1991
That they should invoke a son for (Allah) Most Gracious.1992
For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He should beget a son1993
Not one of the beings in quality and disposition but must come to (Allah) Most Gracious as a servant.peace
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you are welcome, but be careful of the things you are following they may not be what they seem to be.
Do you fancy yourself some kind of guru or something, Simple? I've read your posts and i appreciate you won't accept orthodox views. Neither do I but if you wanna be a 'johnny-new-views', then you need actual substance. Don't talk in riddles and expect your views to see Quranic when they're not. The fact is, God uses very strong language for those who say he took a son. It's kufr no matter how much you fancy it's not.
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Do you fancy yourself some kind of guru or something, Simple? I've read your posts and i appreciate you won't accept orthodox views. Neither do I but if you wanna be a 'johnny-new-views', then you need actual substance. Don't talk in riddles and expect your views to see Quranic when they're not. The fact is, God uses very strong language for those who say he took a son. It's kufr no matter how much you fancy it's not.
To you your understanding and to me.........
peace
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Peace Simple,
According to the quran
- There those who serve Allah(adopt peacful, truthful and a helpful ways) by choosing to serve humanity.
The definition of muslim based on QS 4133 is a monotheist and doing good deeds. This is apply for single individual who choose dien from Kitab as his/her way of life.
Doing good deeds is NOTHING if you are not monotheist -> this is what I learn in al-Qur'an. Do you know why?
688 Such is the guidance of God, He guides with it whom He pleases of His servants. And if they set up partners, then all that they had worked would fall away from them.
My advise to you, please ask guidance from Allah when you read from al-Qur'an, what kind of other actions that makes our worked in this world is fall away, you'll be surprise to find out that it is not just act of polytheist.
- Those who don't serve Allah(don't adopt the peaceful,truthful, and a helpful way) but choose to serve the select few(because of their ill ways). They are kufar and when they start to practice their ill ways they are classed as Mushriks(they are their to harm humanity but serve a select few).
The more you read and study al-Qur'an, you'll notice that kufar, munafiq, zalim, fasiq, they will lead to ultimate sin which is mushriks (act of polytheist). Based on my understanding now, they (kafir, fasiq, zalim, munafiq) are all the same.
I haven't checked but i doubt you will find any verse in the quran where it says "The Kufar and the Mushriks" check it.
There are a LOT of ayaat in al-Qur'an that contain the word kufar and mushrik in single ayaat, one of them is QS 2105
Deen is simply fulfillment of your obligations to men.
What kind of obligations that needs to fulfill? I'm really interest to hear your opinion about this matter.
Religions exist although they may not provide any benefits to anyone but as long as those people are fulfilling their obligations to humanity then there can't be any harm although there is no benefit neither.
I'm not sure I follow what you wrote, especially about the last sentence "as long as those people are fulfilling their obligations to humanity then there can't be any harm although there is no benefit neither."
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Peace Simple,
The definition of muslim based on QS 4133 is a monotheist and doing good deeds. This is apply for single individual who choose dien from Kitab as his/her way of life.
Doing good deeds is NOTHING if you are not monotheist -> this is what I learn in al-Qur'an. Do you know why?
Doing good deeds has nothing to do with believing in one God or a number of gods if all your gods entail good.
If you think so please debate it.
What kind of obligations that needs to fulfill? I'm really interest to hear your opinion about this matter.
I'm not sure I follow what you wrote, especially about the last sentence "as long as those people are fulfilling their obligations to humanity then there can't be any harm although there is no benefit neither."
Religions are man made and have lots of useless activities embodied. I am sure you can think of loads of such.
What obligations do people need to fulfill and provided they fulfill them then they are of the saved who don't need to fear or grieve- i think that is what the quran says, right?
003.073
YUSUFALI "And believe no one unless he follows your religion." Say "True guidance is the Guidance of Allah (Fear ye) Lest a revelation be sent to someone (else) Like unto that which was sent unto you? or that those (Receiving such revelation) should engage you in argument before your Lord?" Say "All bounties are in the hand of Allah He granteth them to whom He pleaseth And Allah careth for all, and He knoweth all things."
003.074
YUSUFALI For His Mercy He specially chooseth whom He pleaseth; for Allah is the Lord of bounties unbounded.
003.075
YUSUFALI Among the People of the Book are some who, if entrusted with a hoard of gold, will (readily) pay it back; others, who, if entrusted with a single silver coin, will not repay it unless thou constantly stoodest demanding, because, they say, "there is no call on us (to keep faith) with these ignorant (Pagans)." but they tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it.
003.076
YUSUFALI Nay.- Those that keep their plighted faith and act aright,-verily Allah loves those who act aright.Above people of one group aren?t fulfilling their obligations so they must be punished for that as that takes them into the realm of shirk.
Any and All people are okay so long as they don't start doing acts which are so heinous as to make them so ungodly that they can be classed as Mushriks.
002.062
YUSUFALI Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.hmm
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Doing good deeds has nothing to do with believing in one God or a number of gods if all your gods entail good.
If you think so please debate it.
These are among the (precepts of) wisdom, which thy Lord has revealed to thee. Take not, with Allah, another object of worship, lest thou shouldst be thrown into Hell, blameworthy and rejected. (17/39)
Good deeds or ethical precepts (expounded in 17/22-3 are inextrcably linked with the worship of one God.
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These are among the (precepts of) wisdom, which thy Lord has revealed to thee. Take not, with Allah, another object of worship, lest thou shouldst be thrown into Hell, blameworthy and rejected. (17/39)
Good deeds or ethical precepts (expounded in 17/22-3 are inextrcably linked with the worship of one God.
Br,
not, with Allah, another object of worship
.......and do not set up with Allah god another lest you should be thrown in Hell...
Now look at what the quran is revealing;
The first verse 1722 starts by saying do not take another with Allah , Right?
Then the ayats following 1723-38 tell us what following another means, Right?
Then Ayah 1739 tell's us AGAIN that this is wisdom for you from your lord and do not set up another god to serve.
So do you see that you can only be setting up another god when and if the wisdom obtained from the other god goes in opposition to this detail.
It's not about setting up partners with Allah who can't give instruction to you, its about him or her who gives instruction to you that is opposite to that you have obtained from Allah, That is the partnership Allah is forbidding you from, he doesn't want us following others who mislead us to hell by our mischievous action.
017.022
YUSUFALI Take not with Allah another object of worship; or thou (O man!) wilt sit in disgrace and destitution.017.023
YUSUFALI Thy Lord hath decreed that ye worship none but Him, and that ye be kind to parents. Whether one or both of them attain old age in thy life, say not to them a word of contempt, nor repel them, but address them in terms of honour.
017.024
YUSUFALI And, out of kindness, lower to them the wing of humility, and say "My Lord! bestow on them thy Mercy even as they cherished me in childhood."
017.025
YUSUFALI Your Lord knoweth best what is in your hearts If ye do deeds of righteousness, verily He is Most Forgiving to those who turn to Him again and again (in true penitence).
017.026
YUSUFALI And render to the kindred their due rights, as (also) to those in want, and to the wayfarer But squander not (your wealth) in the manner of a spendthrift.
017.027
YUSUFALI Verily spendthrifts are brothers of the Evil Ones; and the Evil One is to his Lord (himself) ungrateful.
017.028
YUSUFALI And even if thou hast to turn away from them in pursuit of the Mercy from thy Lord which thou dost expect, yet speak to them a word of easy kindness.
017.029
YUSUFALI Make not thy hand tied (like a niggard's) to thy neck, nor stretch it forth to its utmost reach, so that thou become blameworthy and destitute.
017.030
YUSUFALI Verily thy Lord doth provide sustenance in abundance for whom He pleaseth, and He provideth in a just measure. For He doth know and regard all His servants.
017.031
YUSUFALI Kill not your children for fear of want We shall provide sustenance for them as well as for you. Verily the killing of them is a great sin.
017.032
YUSUFALI Nor come nigh to adultery for it is a shameful (deed) and an evil, opening the road (to other evils).
017.033
YUSUFALI Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand qisas or to forgive) but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the Law).
017.034
YUSUFALI Come not nigh to the orphan's property except to improve it, until he attains the age of full strength; and fulfil (every) engagement, for (every) engagement will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning).
017.035
YUSUFALI Give full measure when ye measure, and weigh with a balance that is straight that is the most fitting and the most advantageous in the final determination.
017.036
YUSUFALI And pursue not that of which thou hast no knowledge; for every act of hearing, or of seeing or of (feeling in) the heart will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning).
017.037
YUSUFALI Nor walk on the earth with insolence for thou canst not rend the earth asunder, nor reach the mountains in height.
017.038
YUSUFALI Of all such things the evil is hateful in the sight of thy Lord.
017.039YUSUFALI These are among the (precepts of) wisdom, which thy Lord has revealed to thee. Take not, with Allah, another object of worship, lest thou shouldst be thrown into Hell, blameworthy and rejected.
peace
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Now look at what the quran is revealing;
The first verse 1722 starts by saying do not take another with Allah , Right?
Then the ayats following 1723-38 tell us what following another means, Right?
Then Ayah 1739 tell's us AGAIN that this is wisdom for you from your lord and do not set up another god to serve.
So do you see that you can only be setting up another god when and if the wisdom obtained from the other god goes in opposition to this detail.
It's not about setting up partners with Allah who can't give instruction to you, its about him or her who gives instruction to you that is opposite to that you have obtained from Allah, That is the partnership Allah is forbidding you from, he doesn't want us following others who mislead us to hell by our mischievous action.
Right, so your reasoning is as follows
- 17/22 says don't worship another God.
- 17/23-38 tells what it means to worship another God (i.e to follow other percepts of wisdom)
- 17/39 affirms that.
Ok, except for one thing. Have a look at 17/23
Thy Lord hath decreed that ye worship none but Him, and that ye be kind to parents. Whether one or both of them attain old age in thy life, say not to them a word of contempt, nor repel them, but address them in terms of honour.
So part of the hikmah itself is to not take another god. When you take another god with Allah, you're going against the wisdom (and thus going against 17/39).
But tell me, how do you know of these 'other gods'. How do you know what wisdom the teach?
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Right, so your reasoning is as follows
- 17/22 says don't worship another God.
- 17/23-38 tells what it means to worship another God (i.e to follow other percepts of wisdom)
- 17/39 affirms that.
Ok, except for one thing. Have a look at 17/23
Thy Lord hath decreed that ye worship none but Him, and that ye be kind to parents. Whether one or both of them attain old age in thy life, say not to them a word of contempt, nor repel them, but address them in terms of honour.
So part of the hikmah itself is to not take another god.
no Br. it isn't part of the hikmah- the whole of the hikmah is it.
When you take another god with Allah, you're going against wisdom.
Yes.
But tell me, how do you know of these 'other gods'. How do you know what wisdom the teach?
The other gods are living gods not dead and gone who can't do anything as such.
An individual doesn't need to call him or herself god but simply command encourage to act in a wrongfull manner and they are being partners of God as they will be acting regarding the particular act in opposition to Gods authority thus on a par level with respect to the wisdom of God.
But leaders like pharoe and some others used to call themselves gods also.
peace
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no Br. it isn't part of the hikmah- the whole of the hikmah is it.
Yes.
The other gods are living gods not dead and gone who can't do anything as such.
An individual doesn't need to call him or herself god but simply command encourage to act in a wrongfull manner and they are being partners of God as they will be acting regarding the particular act in opposition to Gods authority thus on a par level with respect to the wisdom of God.
But leaders like pharoe and some others used to call themselves gods also.
peace
Peace,
could you please define "god", i'm curious.
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Peace,
could you please define "god", i'm curious.
Try Lanes;
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume1/00000119.pdf
The gods in the quran being talked about are people, things........e.t.c
Making dead people into gods doesn't cause any change in the cosmos as the quran said "son of God" it is a saying from their mouths only, but no more then that, but is what the unbelievers of old practiced who used to have a man who was god but carried out many a mischievous/evil deeds.
peace
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Try Lanes;
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume1/00000119.pdf
The gods in the quran being talked about are people, things........e.t.c
Making dead people into gods doesn't cause any change in the cosmos as the quran said "son of God" it is a saying from their mouths only, but no more then that, but is what the unbelievers of old practiced who used to have a man who was god but carried out many a mischievous/evil deeds.
peace
No, not Lanes', i meant yours
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no Br. it isn't part of the hikmah- the whole of the hikmah is it.
Look, 17/22 says it. 17/23 REPEATS it AND connects it to being good to parents etc
Thy Lord hath decreed that ye worship none but Him, and that ye be kind to parents. Whether one or both of them attain old age in thy life, say not to them a word of contempt, nor repel them, but address them in terms of honourNot only that, there are three other ayaat which actually repeat this
4/36Serve Allah, and join not any partners with Him; and do good- to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbours who are near, neighbours who are strangers, the companion by your side, the wayfarer (ye meet), and what your right hands possess For Allah loveth not the arrogant, the vainglorious;-
6/151Say "Come, I will rehearse what Allah hath (really) prohibited you from" Join not anything as equal with Him; be good to your parents; kill not your children on a plea of want;- We provide sustenance for you and for them;- come not nigh to shameful deeds. Whether open or secret; take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.
2/83And remember We took a covenant from the Children of Israel (to this effect) Worship none but Allah; treat with kindness your parents and kindred, and orphans and those in need; speak fair to the people
So you got 4 times here. Allah says do not associate, he also mentions doing good. I hope that's clear enough for you.
The other gods are living gods not dead and gone who can't do anything as such.
Quran makes no differentiation. It says all false gods can't do anything.
An individual doesn't need to call him or herself god but simply command encourage to act in a wrongfull manner and they are being partners of God as they will be acting regarding the particular act in opposition to Gods authority thus on a par level with respect to the wisdom of God.
In a Quranic context, that's not what partners means. Such people are called 'servants' or 'believers' or even 'messengers', never partners. Kindly produce evidence and please don't tell me 'its all over Quran'. You're ok-ing shirk here.
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Look, 17/22 says it. 17/23 REPEATS it AND connects it to being good to parents etc
Thy Lord hath decreed that ye worship none but Him, and that ye be kind to parents. Whether one or both of them attain old age in thy life, say not to them a word of contempt, nor repel them, but address them in terms of honourNot only that, there are three other ayaat which actually repeat this
4/36Serve Allah, and join not any partners with Him; and do good- to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbours who are near, neighbours who are strangers, the companion by your side, the wayfarer (ye meet), and what your right hands possess For Allah loveth not the arrogant, the vainglorious;-
6/151Say "Come, I will rehearse what Allah hath (really) prohibited you from" Join not anything as equal with Him; be good to your parents; kill not your children on a plea of want;- We provide sustenance for you and for them;- come not nigh to shameful deeds. Whether open or secret; take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.
2/83And remember We took a covenant from the Children of Israel (to this effect) Worship none but Allah; treat with kindness your parents and kindred, and orphans and those in need; speak fair to the people
So you got 4 times here. Allah says do not associate, he also mentions doing good. I hope that's clear enough for you.
When we give the authority of Allah to another, then clearly we can be led up the garden path to doing opposite to all or some of the things mentioned above i.e do good- to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbours who are near, neighbours who are strangers, the companion by your side, the wayfarer (ye meet), .........
So the subject is not to set up another illah and to do all the godly things according to Allah those listed above.
Quran makes no differentiation. It says all false gods can't do anything.
where?
As i remember Pharaoh was a false god and did a lot of wrong.
In a Quranic context, that's not what partners means. Such people are called 'servants' or 'believers' or even 'messengers', never partners. Kindly produce evidence and please don't tell me 'its all over Quran'. You're ok-ing shirk here.
People who mislead others to doing/ acting in opposition to Allah are false gods, even your desires can sometimes be false gods.They are not servents, come on you surely know this.......
peace
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No, not Lanes', i meant yours
What god is or The God is?