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  4. All religions are okay?

All religions are okay?

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  • S Offline
    S Offline
    san
    wrote on last edited by
    #41

    Peace, Simple!

    Umm, the poll got me caught.

    Are all and any religion okay so long as ............. ('OK, i'm gonna fill this first! So, what's meant with "okay"? Mmmm, let's ask the author first...&#039
    ('...huh?...&#039
    Yes
    No
    Other
    ('..."Yes", "No", "Other" to what? wasn't there a condition already? So, am i meant to answer to my own condition? ??? &#039

    Oh, there you go,

    peace

    Are all religions okay so long as the people are

    1. Peaceful,
    2. Truthful,
    3. Kind.

    hmm

    if not why not? and isn't that anti quran?

    peace

    That's what you got when you don't pay attention to the first post...

    Now, let's get to your terms 1. Peaceful 2. Truthful 3. Kind

    I would have to ask what is your definition (i know, boring...) of "Peaceful", "Truthful" (oh, this one is straightforward, leave it), and "Kind".

    If "Kind" is defined as those who do "Albirr" in 2177

    Not that "Albirr" is you turn your faces toward the east or the west,
    but "Albirr" is
    those who believe in
    God, and
    the Last Day, and
    the angels, and
    the Book, and
    the prophets; and
    give wealth, in spite of love for it, to
    the families, and
    the orphans, and
    the poors, and
    the wayfarers, and
    the beggars, and to
    free slaves; and
    establishes AlSalaat and
    pays Alzakaat; and
    fulfill their promise when they promise; and
    are perseverant (AlSabiriyn) in poverty and hardship and during battle.
    Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the Reverends (Almuttaquwn).

    (Take "Salaat" as their way to contact God, and as for "zakaat"--well, the "known amount", 2.5% is easily bearable.)

    Then "Yes".

    That, or the definition of Ihsan or those of "AlmuHsiniyn" throughout the Book.
    Such as, they would quickly repent to their God if they did wrong.
    Saying the best of words to their parents.
    Taking the best of words to decide on.

    On the other hand, one could easily claim "Oh she's a kind person--she gave me cookies this morning!"
    (OK, that would still be part right if you are of her family, or you are an orphan, or you are a poor, or you are... ah--just read 2177 yourself)

    So that's why i say it entirely depends on the definition of your terms. Definitions or descriptions of "Kindness" in the Book are by far the best ones i know. Elegant, comprehensive, actionable and testing at once. I would gladly refer to 2177 as 'the perfect antithesis to all the useless hypocritical theories on Kindness'.

    If you see someone that prefers to dwell in any activity so obsessively that he thought it is more important than the actions of 2177, then... uh, just don't be like him. (I'm running out of words and must have breakfast soon)

    Simple, Peace!

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    • M Offline
      M Offline
      MUNZIR_ALI
      wrote on last edited by
      #42

      That is one story. The other is that he accepted it and made it the official Roman religion. He is credited with the building of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem and Old Saint Peter's Basilica in Rome

      I like old churches. They are a lot different.

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      • A Offline
        A Offline
        abdalquran
        wrote on last edited by
        #43

        Ok simple, let me ask you this way

        When your religion says 'God has a son', can that religion still be 'ok'?

        And do you think maybe this time you can provide some evidence?

        Abdal you only make others partners of God is when you start obeying their commands- which are against the nature of God.

        And no prophet ever would give such an order- i think, so they cannot be partners to God.

        So no prophet ever makes a sect but that which is between Goodness and badness.

        So they will not burn.

        It is others who may say the prophet said so and so and mislead you are the partners with God.

        Good hunting. peace

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        • S Offline
          S Offline
          san
          wrote on last edited by
          #44

          I like old churches. They are a lot different.

          Agreed. For one, they're well aged. And naturally too.

          Seriously, that's one quality we can't have in new architecture. Unless maybe they're built from stones, and still we have to wait for another thousand and eight hundred years...

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          • U Offline
            U Offline
            unknownuser
            wrote on last edited by
            #45

            Peace, Simple!

            Umm, the poll got me caught.

            Are all and any religion okay so long as ............. ('OK, i'm gonna fill this first! So, what's meant with "okay"? Mmmm, let's ask the author first...&#039
            ('...huh?...&#039
            Yes
            No
            Other
            ('..."Yes", "No", "Other" to what? wasn't there a condition already? So, am i meant to answer to my own condition? ??? &#039

            Oh, there you go,That's what you got when you don't pay attention to the first post...

            Now, let's get to your terms 1. Peaceful 2. Truthful 3. Kind

            I would have to ask what is your definition (i know, boring...) of "Peaceful", "Truthful" (oh, this one is straightforward, leave it), and "Kind".

            If "Kind" is defined as those who do "Albirr" in 2177

            Not that "Albirr" is you turn your faces toward the east or the west,
            but "Albirr" is
            those who believe in
            God, and
            the Last Day, and
            the angels, and
            the Book, and
            the prophets; and
            give wealth, in spite of love for it, to
            the families, and
            the orphans, and
            the poors, and
            the wayfarers, and
            the beggars, and to
            free slaves; and
            establishes AlSalaat and
            pays Alzakaat; and
            fulfill their promise when they promise; and
            are perseverant (AlSabiriyn) in poverty and hardship and during battle.
            Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the Reverends (Almuttaquwn).

            (Take "Salaat" as their way to contact God, and as for "zakaat"--well, the "known amount", 2.5% is easily bearable.)

            Then "Yes".

            That, or the definition of Ihsan or those of "AlmuHsiniyn" throughout the Book.
            Such as, they would quickly repent to their God if they did wrong.
            Saying the best of words to their parents.
            Taking the best of words to decide on.

            On the other hand, one could easily claim "Oh she's a kind person--she gave me cookies this morning!"
            (OK, that would still be part right if you are of her family, or you are an orphan, or you are a poor, or you are... ah--just read 2177 yourself)

            So that's why i say it entirely depends on the definition of your terms. Definitions or descriptions of "Kindness" in the Book are by far the best ones i know. Elegant, comprehensive, actionable and testing at once. I would gladly refer to 2177 as 'the perfect antithesis to all the useless hypocritical theories on Kindness'.

            If you see someone that prefers to dwell in any activity so obsessively that he thought it is more important than the actions of 2177, then... uh, just don't be like him. (I'm running out of words and must have breakfast soon)

            Simple, Peace!

            Different sects define these things differently but all are okay so long as they don't lose sight of the foundation envisaged which is the same for all.

            1. Peaceful,
            2. Truthful,
            3. Kind.

            of course the way you have defined the ayah above is your religion peace

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            • U Offline
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              unknownuser
              wrote on last edited by
              #46

              Ok simple, let me ask you this way

              When your religion says 'God has a son', can that religion still be 'ok'?

              And do you think maybe this time you can provide some evidence?

              002.062
              YUSUFALI Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

              Although the last day should be something else-but we will leave this as it stands -X

              peace

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              • A Offline
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                abdalquran
                wrote on last edited by
                #47

                3 things

                1. Why do you leave the word 'nasara' as Christians? Why not analyse it and perhaps you won't think it's christians either?

                2. What makes you think this means ALL nasara? Have a look at 9/30
                  The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them how they are deluded away from the Truth

                Does this sound people who have no 'fear' nor 'grief' ?

                1. On the question God's having a 'son'. Have a look at this

                They say "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!"
                Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!
                At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,
                That they should invoke a son for (Allah) Most Gracious
                For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.

                So I really cannot understand how you're saying it's ONLY about love, peace, kindness or whatever. I'm sure God won't judge someone unless he consciously rejects the one God but ideologies which preach that God has a 'son' is definitely kufr and not 'ok'. I await your evidence to the contrary.

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                • S Offline
                  S Offline
                  san
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #48

                  Different sects define these things differently but all are okay so long as they don't lose sight of the foundation envisaged which is the same for all.

                  1. Peaceful,
                  2. Truthful,
                  3. Kind.

                  of course the way you have defined the ayah above is your religion peace

                  Yeah, Thanks God that is my way For you your way, and for us, ours.

                  Now, give us your definition of "Peaceful" and "Kind", so we may discuss about it.

                  And "Truthful" as well, since apparently we might have very different idea about it.

                  And also abdalquran made a critical point. What's your take on it?

                  In addition, can one stay being Peaceful, Truthful and Kind, all throughout his life following such system of lies?

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                  • U Offline
                    U Offline
                    unknownuser
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #49

                    3 things

                    1. Why do you leave the word 'nasara' as Christians? Why not analyse it and perhaps you won't think it's christians either?

                    The following ayah's make it clearer that it is the christians;

                    002.062
                    YUSUFALI Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Nasaara and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

                    930
                    The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Nasaara call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them how they are deluded away from the Truth

                    1. What makes you think this means ALL nasara? Have a look at 9/30
                      The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them how they are deluded away from the Truth

                    Does this sound people who have no 'fear' nor 'grief' ?

                    Allah cursed the unbelievers of old , not the christians (who are believers) who are being admonished by an example.

                    1. On the question God's having a 'son'. Have a look at this

                    They say "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!"
                    Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!
                    At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,
                    That they should invoke a son for (Allah) Most Gracious
                    For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.

                    So I really cannot understand how you're saying it's ONLY about love, peace, kindness or whatever. I'm sure God won't judge someone unless he consciously rejects the one God but ideologies which preach that God has a 'son' is definitely kufr and not 'ok'. I await your evidence to the contrary.

                    God won't judge a person to hell simply because he likes to pinch womens behinds when he can ( )- he will be judged according to his overall conduct in life.

                    peace

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                    • A Offline
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                      abdalquran
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #50

                      The following ayah's make it clearer that it is the christians;

                      Ok for arguments sake, lets take that its Christians. My point still remains. 2/62 and 9/30 shows that 'christians' are not a single group.

                      Allah cursed the unbelievers of old , not the christians (who are believers) who are being admonished by an example.

                      Wow, so God cursed unbelievers OF THE PAST but is ok with people called 'Christians' doing the EXACT same thing? 9/30 clearly says they COPY the saying of the UNBELIEVERS of old yet they're let off? Come on...

                      Lets not forget that passage either please, Simple. 19/88-91. That's clear proof of the severity of this act.

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                      • S Offline
                        S Offline
                        san
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #51

                        Peace,

                        Simple, can you please analyze each word in the original Arabic script and present to us your result? If you would not or could not that's OK. As you might already be very aware that it is really easy to derive incorrect meanings from translations.

                        God won't judge a person to hell simply because he likes to pinch womens behinds when he can ( )- he will be judged according to his overall conduct in life.

                        By the way, i'm surprised at how simple (as in simply insensible) your judgements 'on behalf of God' are. You used "he likes to pinch women behind when he can" and "according to his overall conduct in his life". If you used "he used to like to pinch women behind and then repented" that would be more in harmony with the "according to his overall conduct in his life" part. You see, repentance is a very often repeated theme in the Quran. God loves the repenting (returning) people.

                        And of course God knows best. Please refrain from assumptions about God, we have very limited knowledge.

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                        • R Offline
                          R Offline
                          Rev_John
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #52

                          Ok for arguments sake, lets take that its Christians. My point still remains. 2/62 and 9/30 shows that 'christians' are not a single group.

                          Wow, so God cursed unbelievers OF THE PAST but is ok with people called 'Christians' doing the EXACT same thing? 9/30 clearly says they COPY the saying of the UNBELIEVERS of old yet they're let off? Come on...

                          Lets not forget that passage either please, Simple. 19/88-91. That's clear proof of the severity of this act.

                          Christians are certainly NOT a single group. The beliefs of the Southern Baptists and the beliefs of God-alone Christians are as far apart as Roman Catholics are from fundamental Judaism.

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                          • U Offline
                            U Offline
                            unknownuser
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #53

                            Ok for arguments sake, lets take that its Christians. My point still remains. 2/62 and 9/30 shows that 'christians' are not a single group.

                            peace

                            They may not be a single group but for the majority of them their overal teachings are basically the same.

                            Wow, so God cursed unbelievers OF THE PAST but is ok with people called 'Christians' doing the EXACT same thing? 9/30 clearly says they COPY the saying of the UNBELIEVERS of old yet they're let off? Come on...

                            They were cursed for being unbeliever's not for that act, and the unbelievers are cursed throughout the quran-check it.

                            hypno

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                            • U Offline
                              U Offline
                              unknownuser
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #54

                              Peace,

                              Simple, can you please analyze each word in the original Arabic script and present to us your result? If you would not or could not that's OK. As you might already be very aware that it is really easy to derive incorrect meanings from translations.

                              Okay -one a these days.

                              peace

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                              • U Offline
                                U Offline
                                unknownuser
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #55

                                Christians are certainly NOT a single group. The beliefs of the Southern Baptists and the beliefs of God-alone Christians are as far apart as Roman Catholics are from fundamental Judaism.

                                Hi Rev,

                                Well certainly they have called him a son of God , or God since before the quran .

                                peace

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                                  abdalquran
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #56

                                  They were cursed for being unbeliever's not for that act, and the unbelievers are cursed throughout the quran-check it.

                                  Simple, have you actually read 9/30. Let me translate it for you step by step
                                  Waqalati alyahoodu And says the 'jews' (for arguments sake, lets say its jews)
                                  AAuzayrun ibnu Allahi Uzair is the son of God
                                  waqalati alnnasara and said the 'christians' (for arguments sake, lets say its christians)
                                  almaseehu ibnu Allahi the messiah is son of God
                                  thalika qawluhum bi-afwahihim That is their saying by their mouths
                                  yudahi-oona they imitate
                                  qawla allatheena kafaroo sayings of those who REJECT
                                  min qablu from before
                                  qatalahumu Allahu anna yu/fakoona Allah cursed them for their lying.

                                  So why is 'those who reject' mentioned IN THIS CONTEXT and why is IMITATION mentioned here? Can you please read the ayah in full, Simple?

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                                    Rev_John
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #57

                                    Hi Rev,

                                    Well certainly they have called him a son of God , or God since before the quran .

                                    peace

                                    Yes, ever since the council of Nicea about 1500 years ago when the Roman Catholic church decided to "rewrite" everything. But not all Christians believe that Jesus was the "only" son of God but believe we are all children of God. Many Christians now are trying to get back to the beliefs of the early church with no trinity, no divinity of Jesus etc. Only a very few believe that Jesus was a god, they are in contravention of the first commandment of course.

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                                      unknownuser
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #58

                                      Simple, have you actually read 9/30. Let me translate it for you step by step
                                      Waqalati alyahoodu And says the 'jews' (for arguments sake, lets say its jews)
                                      AAuzayrun ibnu Allahi Uzair is the son of God
                                      waqalati alnnasara and said the 'christians' (for arguments sake, lets say its christians)
                                      almaseehu ibnu Allahi the messiah is son of God
                                      thalika qawluhum bi-afwahihim That is their saying by their mouths
                                      yudahi-oona they imitate
                                      qawla allatheena kafaroo sayings of those who REJECT
                                      min qablu from before
                                      qatalahumu Allahu anna yu/fakoona Allah cursed them for their lying.

                                      So why is 'those who reject' mentioned IN THIS CONTEXT and why is IMITATION mentioned here? Can you please read the ayah in full, Simple?

                                      That is their saying by their mouths
                                      they imitate
                                      sayings of those who REJECT
                                      from before
                                      Allah cursed them for their lying.

                                      They are only saying it with their mouths THEIR IS NO SUBSTANCE. sayings of kufar from before - Allah's curse be on them.

                                      In times gone people used to be gods or sons of god and then act wrongly in the earth doing many a thing criminal- now that had substance,crimes for which they will burn.

                                      But sayings from the mouth without any wrong doing has no substance, no crime for the burning.

                                      hmm

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                                        abdalquran
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #59

                                        That is their saying by their mouths
                                        they imitate
                                        sayings of those who REJECT
                                        from before
                                        Allah cursed them for their lying.

                                        They are only saying it with their mouths THEIR IS NO SUBSTANCE. sayings of kufar from before - Allah's curse be on them.

                                        In times gone people used to be gods or sons of god and then act wrongly in the earth doing many a thing criminal- now that had substance,crimes for which they will burn.

                                        But sayings from the mouth without any wrong doing has no substance, no crime for the burning.

                                        hmm

                                        There is no 'only' there, Simple. And the 'qatalahum Allah' is for ANYONE who says this (anna yu'fakoon)

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                                          unknownuser
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #60

                                          There is no 'only' there, Simple. And the 'qatalahum Allah' is for ANYONE who says this (anna yu'fakoon)

                                          Sorry Br, calling onself Allah or the son of Allah or Rabb like pharoah did isn't a crime in itself as much as calling yourself such and doing all the wrongs in the world like pharoah - his crimes are world famous

                                          here is an example of such.........

                                          002.258
                                          YUSUFALI Hast thou not Turned thy vision to one who disputed with Abraham About his Lord, because Allah had granted him power? Abraham said "My Lord is He Who Giveth life and death." He said "I give life and death". Said Abraham "But it is Allah that causeth the sun to rise from the east Do thou then cause him to rise from the West." Thus was he confounded who (in arrogance) rejected faith. Nor doth Allah Give guidance to a people unjust.

                                          peace

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