"Laa lilaha illallah"

DH

362 there is no God but Allah

4829 Muhammad is the Rasul of Allah

There is therefore nothing "innovatory" about the shahada. Even though Allah does not command believers to "SAY" these words, a verbal acknowledgement of the prophethood of Muhammad is logically necessary to establish someone as a true believer - since someone simply saying "I believe in Allah" does not in itself indicate an acceptance of the Qur'an as the divine word.

Mazhar

Mazhar, what you are saying is based on presumtion, what I am saying is based on what Quran says and the system of Justice of Allah.

There is nothing in these verses that says one has to declare publicly any belief in Muhammed. In fact it is saying those who follow thier own books given from Allah will have their reward and not grieve.

002.062
YUSUFALI Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

005.069
YUSUFALI Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

The whole Quran is telling you to follow the Message IN IT.

What about those who claim publicly that they believe but secretly turn away, Allah KNOWS who they are, do you think because they publicly declared they believe they are ok?

Place Arabic text of Qur'aan above it and then see, as you analysed another verse to presume and stretch to apply a masculine singular pronoun to feminine plural, whether this is what is said therein.

Ayisha

4829 Muhammad is the Rasul of Allah

There is therefore nothing "innovatory" about the shahada. Even though Allah does not command believers to "SAY" these words, a verbal acknowledgement of the prophethood of Muhammad is logically necessary to establish someone as a true believer - since someone simply saying "I believe in Allah" does not in itself indicate an acceptance of the Qur'an as the divine word.

yes i know Muhammed is the rasul of Allah and there IS something innovatory in the statement as you can bet your life all other prophets didnt say it neither did Muhammed nor any of the first Muslims. Allah does NOT command to say it and it is NOT a requirement and it is NOT 'logically necessary' someone as a 'true believer'. Saying I believe in Allah AND ALL HIS PROPHETS AND ALL HIS BOOKS does indicate acceptance of Quran as the Divine Word. There is NO reason to single out and ADD 1 messenger ONLY to the declaration of faith!

Ayisha

Place Arabic text of Qur'aan above it and then see, as you analysed another verse to presume and stretch to apply a masculine singular pronoun to feminine plural, whether this is what is said therein.

sorry I dont understand that question at all

DH

Saying I believe in Allah AND ALL HIS PROPHETS AND ALL HIS BOOKS does indicate acceptance of Quran as the Divine Word.

The Maltese word for "Allah" is "Allah" - a vestige of centuries of Arab rule. Most Maltese are now Roman Catholics who believe Jesus is the Son of Allah and Allah is one of three. So if a Maltese Roman Catholic said to you "I believe in Allah and all his prophets and all his books" that would make him a true believer in your eyes would it?

Mazhar

This is saying to believe in His revelation that was revealed to Muhammed and to follow IT, not him.

And he is asked to say this, with first person personal pronoun

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You the Messenger, pronounce, "If you people love Allah, then consciously incline yourselves to follow me, in letter and spirit, without in between there being third party intervention, Allah will love/appreciate and acknowledge act of you people and for you He will overlook/forgive your wrong-doings

Chapter 3 Verse 31

Ayisha

The Maltese word for "Allah" is "Allah" - a vestige of centuries of Arab rule. Most Maltese are now Roman Catholics who believe Jesus is the Son of Allah and Allah is one of three. So if a Maltese Roman Catholic said to you "I believe in Allah and all his prophets and all his books" that would make him a true believer in your eyes would it?

Coptic Christians in Egypt also follow Allah. yes it would make him a true believer according to Allah, so yes according to me too.

If a man comes to you and says he believes in Allah and Muhammed but goes and rapes a woman and kills a man and steals form an old lady, would that still make him a believer in your eyes?

002.062
YUSUFALI Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

005.069
YUSUFALI Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

005.082
YUSUFALI Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians" because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

The MAIN thing is belief in Allah, as the above verses say those who follow their own scriptures will be ok, because if they are actually following then they will not be astray. There are many muslims who are muslim by name only but are not righteous or do any good deeds, but they say muhammed rasul Allah, means nothing.

DH

Coptic Christians in Egypt also follow Allah. yes it would make him a true believer according to Allah, so yes according to me too.

Even if the prophets they believed in did not include Muhammad?

Ayisha

And he is asked to say this, with first person personal pronoun

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You the Messenger, pronounce, "If you people love Allah, then consciously incline yourselves to follow me, in letter and spirit, without in between there being third party intervention, Allah will love/appreciate and acknowledge act of you people and for you He will overlook/forgive your wrong-doings

Chapter 3 Verse 31

yes in that verse it says follow Muhammed but follow him in what he follows in Quran, not follow him in every physical detail to how to enter a toilet and grow a beard, but in following the Word of Allah. There are also verse that say follow Abraham and other prophets, and it means the same thing, in how they followed Allah's Words, not physical.

Ayisha

Even if the prophets they believed in did not include Muhammad?

read the verses. They follow the books given to them they belive in Allah and the last day = they are believers.

If a requirement was to believe in Muhammed then heaven must have been pretty empty before he was born.

If one believes in Quran then one has to believe in Muhammed being a prophet by default. The message is pretty clear in that the main criterior is to believe there is No God but God and work righteous deeds. So in outer wherever where they know of no prophets and no message from the Creator but as they live WITH nature they KNOW there is a Creator and they work righteous deeds then they have no fear either. Aborigines call the Creator Aknatu, it means literally the one with no arsehole who doesnt eat sleep go to the loo etc, but they believe in Him without knowing Muhammed or Quran.

Mazhar

There are also verse that say follow Abraham and other prophets , and it means the same thing, in how they followed Allah's Words, not physical.

This is new information for me.
Where is it commanded for us to follow "and other prophets"

Mazhar

If a man comes to you and says he believes in Allah and Muhammed but goes and rapes a woman and kills a man and steals form an old lady, would that still make him a believer in your eyes?

Such assertions are made only when one reads half of the sentence and leaves the other half. After belief if a man survives in time the condition attached with belief is that of righteous conduct. Blief without act is meaningless and acts without belief are of no avail.

DH

read the verses. They follow the books given to them they belive in Allah and the last day = they are believers.

Even if they believe Jesus is the Son of Allah and/or Allah is one of three?

If a requirement was to believe in Muhammed then heaven must have been pretty empty before he was born.

Don't the Torah and injil lay an obligation on the Peoples of the Book to believe in Muhammad?

If one believes in Quran then one has to believe in Muhammed being a prophet by default.

Indeed. However, a Maltese Roman Catholic could SAY "I believe in Allah and his prophets" and not imply with this statement that he believes in Muhammad. Indeed, their beliefs about Jesus are totally incompatable with believing in Muhammad being a prophet.

DH

After belief if a man survives in time the condition attached with belief is that of righteous conduct. Blief without act is meaningless and acts without belief are of no avail.

I totally agree that this is the only honest conclusion that can be drawn from a thorough study of the book of Allah.

Mazhar

Quote from Mazhar
After belief if a man survives in time the condition attached with belief is that of righteous conduct. Blief without act is meaningless and acts without belief are of no avail.

I totally agree that this is the only honest conclusion that can be drawn from a thorough study of the book of Allah.

Thanks DH, but this is not the conclusion drawn by me from a "thorough study of the Book of Allah", but it is the Verdict of Allah in simple and plain words

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on that day accepting and believing will not benefit a person who had not earlier believed/accepted
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or that apparently believing person will not benefit on that day who did earn nothing with his having believed/accepted.

Chapter 6 Verse 158

DH

Thanks DH, but this is not the conclusion drawn by me from a "thorough study of the Book of Allah", but it is the Verdict of Allah in simple and plain words

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on that day accepting and believing will not benefit a person who had not earlier believed/accepted
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or that apparently believing person will not benefit on that day who did earn nothing with his having believed/accepted.

Chapter 6 Verse 158

Some people here have tried to argue that "good deeds" alone are sufficient to get people a passport into heaven even if they DISbelieve in the Qur'an as a divine book revealed to Muhammad. I agree that the verse quoted by you is sufficient to refute this claim. However, this is not enough for some people here, so a rather more detailed analysis is required.

Mazhar

Some people here have tried to argue that "good deeds" alone are sufficient to get people a passport into heaven even if they DISbelieve in the Qur'an as a divine book revealed to Muhammad. I agree that the verse quoted by you is sufficient to refute this claim. However, this is not enough for some people here, so a rather more detailed analysis is required.

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You the Messenger say, "May I inform you people about the losers in the matter of deeds,
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they are those efforts/conduct of whom has lost and perished in the worldly life
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and they think/evaluate that they are artfully and perfectly doing good things.
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These are the people who persistently refused to accept/believe in the Aa'ya'at of their Sustainer Lord and facing His accountability resultantly/for this reason their acts went fruitless/yielded nothing.
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Thereby/ We will not assign for them on the Day of Judgment any weight.

Chaper 18

DH

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You the Messenger say, "May I inform you people about the losers in the matter of deeds,
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/018.%20Al%20Kahf/18.104.gif
they are those efforts/conduct of whom has lost and perished in the worldly life
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and they think/evaluate that they are artfully and perfectly doing good things.
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These are the people who persistently refused to accept/believe in the Aa'ya'at of their Sustainer Lord and facing His accountability resultantly/for this reason their acts went fruitless/yielded nothing.
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Thereby/ We will not assign for them on the Day of Judgment any weight.

Chaper 18

So have I myself vainly quoted to those here who insist that "good deeds" alone will qualify someone as a "believer" or at least undeserving of the fire even if they reject Muhammad as messenger of Allah.

AK85

First of all, when they say "We bear witness" can it not be said (I'm seriously asking for some feedback and perhaps constructive criticism on the following) they are hypocrites because they are not actually bearing witness? Are they in the prophet pbuh's head and witnessing the revelation? They are only witnessing it through him uttering the revelation, not through directly witnessing the message being delivered

Transliteration Itha jaaka almunafiqoona qaloo nashhadu innaka larasoolu Allahi waAllahu yaAAlamu innaka larasooluhu waAllahu yashhadu inna almunafiqeena lakathiboona

Literal If/when the hypocrites came to you, they said "We testify/witness, that you are God's messenger (E)." And God knows that you are His messenger (E), and God witnesses/testifies that truly the hypocrites (are) liars/deniers/ falsifiers (E).

Yusuf Ali When the Hypocrites come to thee, they say, "We bear witness that thou art indeed the Messenger of Allah." Yea, Allah knoweth that thou art indeed His Messenger, and Allah beareth witness that the Hypocrites are indeed liars.

Pickthal When the hypocrites come unto thee (O Muhammad), they say We bear witness that thou art indeed Allah's messenger. And Allah knoweth that thou art indeed His messenger, and Allah beareth witness that the hypocrites indeed are speaking falsely.

Arberry When the hypocrites come to thee they say, 'We bear witness that thou art indeed the Messenger of God.' And God knows that thou art indeed His Messenger, and God bears witness that the hypocrites are truly liars.

Shakir When the hypocrites come to you, they say We bear witness that you are most surely Allah's Messenger; and Allah knows that you are most surely His Messenger, and Allah bears witness that the hypocrites are surely liars.

Sarwar They will never wish for death because of what they have done! God knows best about the unjust people.

Khalifa When the hypocrites come to you they say, "We bear witness that you are the messenger of GOD." GOD knows that you are His messenger, and GOD bears witness that the hypocrites are liars.

Hilali/Khan When the hypocrites come to you (O Muhammad SAW), they say "We bear witness that you are indeed the Messenger of Allah." Allah knows that you are indeed His Messenger and Allah bears witness that the hypocrites are liars indeed.

H/K/Saheeh When the hypocrites come to you, , they say, "We testify that you are the Messenger of Allah." And Allah knows that you are His Messenger, and Allah testifies that the hypocrites are liars.

Malik When the hypocrites come to you, they say "We bear witness that you are indeed the Messenger of Allah." Allah knows that you are indeed His Messenger, and Allah bears witness that the hypocrites are liars.

QXP When the hypocrites come to you (O Prophet), they say, "We bear witness that you are indeed Allah's Messenger." Yes, Allah knows that you are truly His Messenger, and Allah bears witness that the hypocrites are in fact deniers in practice.

Maulana Ali When the hypocrites come to thee, they say We bear witness that thou art indeed Allah?s Messenger. And Allah knows thou art indeed His Messenger. And Allah bears witness that the hypocrites are surely liars.

Free Minds When the hypocrites come to you they Say "We bear witness that you are the messenger of God." And God knows that you are His messenger, and God bears witness that the hypocrites are liars.

Qaribullah When the hypocrites come to you they say 'We bear witness that you are the Messenger of Allah. ' Allah knows that you (Prophet Muhammad) are indeed His Messenger, and Allah bears witness that the hypocrites are truly liars!

George Sale When the hypocrites come unto thee, they say, we bear witness that thou art indeed the Apostle of God. And God knoweth that thou art indeed his Apostle But God beareth witness that the hypocrites are certainly liars.

JM Rodwell WHEN the Hypocrites come to thee, they say, "We bear witness that thou art the Sent One of God." God knoweth that thou art His Sent One but God beareth witness that the HYPOCRITES do surely lie.

Asad WHEN THE HYPOCRITES come unto thee, they say, "We bear witness that thou art indeed God's Apostle!" But God knows that thou art truly His Apostle; and He bears witness that the hypocrites are indeed false .

Why do the need to bear witness verbally with that statement? To bear witness is to follow the Qu'ran's teachings correct? not to simply declare that the prophet pbuh is the messenger.

As for the Maltese who say Allah.

Yes, they say this as a result of the Arabic influence.

HOWEVER Allah means "The God"

If you ask them to reply in English who do they believe in, will they say "we believe in The God" or will they say simply God?

As for 631 is it saying if the hypocrites say to you (the prophet pbuh) that they bear witness, then they are hypocrites or is it saying hypocrites period are those who come to you to verbally bear witness? They can bear witness by supporting the prophet pbuh and by heeding The Message correct? Or is it just saying if the hypocrites say this rather than this is what the hypocrites say

Ayisha