The Search for Muhammad has Ended
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kirikanan is free to formulate his own opinion/s, like all of us here,
he's entitled to disagree with any theory he deems imperceptible or non-credible!My respect aside, I too disagree with Pazuzu on a number of issues, ...
notwithstanding, I partly agree with him on several points , ...Long story short no one is an authority here! G-D alone is.
Convince me through solid* proof.- (to me) solid = inline with the Qurn.
SLM
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you often say in this manner "if you ask yemenis they will not give you and answer", or other times, "Arab's scholar know but they are to afraid to say" it's nothing but baseless assumption. It is true however, there are many prophet progeny (from his daughter) resides in Yemen, even here in Indonesia (alaydrus, assegaf, etc). Some even become very respectable guru, sheikh, ulama in Yemen, and you know what, despite what you are saying about yemenis, they are still doing pilgrimage, facing towards to al-kabah in mecca. But, then again you might say might say this Sheikh, Ulama ( whom indirect descendant of prophets) is in the 99 % imperialist who contributed lies rights?
You are a people of a dogmatic sect, asserting that the sect's way is 'the way' and bashing other approaches. Seriously, did you carry out any research from the Quran itself?
How can the Last Prophet had progenies when he is the SEAL OF THE PROPHET? You dont even comprehend the Quran.
Talking gibberish!!!
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Wa alaikum salam
Everybody is free indeed and nobody is in authority, no.
kirikanan is free to formulate his own opinion/s, like all of us here,
he's entitled to disagree with any theory he deems imperceptible or non-credible!My respect aside, I too disagree with Pazuzu on a number of issues, ...
notwithstanding, I partly agree with him on several points , ...Long story short no one is an authority here! G-D alone is.
Convince me through solid* proof.- (to me) solid = inline with the Qurn.
SLM
Everybody is free to formulate opinions?? why can't I express mine about pazuzu? yay
You are a good one. Historians are God? Is anybody that comes out with a paper title of somehting beyond the need to prove what he says?
Am I saying historian are God? if you study carefully pazuzu thread most of his sources is their (story), historians, hadith at best
You seem to idolize titles, but titles have lied many times whereas persons withou titles have made discoveries and inventions and only afterwards did they get their titles. And there are people with titles which really ar pure decoration.
Look at pazuzu bold claim I quote earlier, I merely stating whether pazuzu have a proper academic education to claim our humanity history has been a lie? how many historian pazuzu used to claim his findings? did he ever properly conducting research or only google based research to come up to such bold claims? then we will wait wheter pazuzu discoveries entitled him academic title, there are disciplines for him to get recognized worldwide. But if only to be recognise here in free-minds, google based research seems proficient enough right?
And you are very condescending, which does not become you unless you really, really are able to bring up even a hundredth of what Pazuzu has already provided in this forum.
First thing I said earlier, I am no expert in related manner, nor historian nor, archaeologist. only pazuzu is the expert and his word are the truth right? His evidences is indisputable and should be treated as facts, his partial quotes from famous books are the truth
Are you annoyed because he does not pander to conspiricy accusers and officialversionists?
Conspiracies theories, imperialist, and so on...(you fill the blank), it all only on his troubled mind. Do you think some phrrases that he quotes will ever be published in this world full of secret organization? he or one will use double standard here
I support Pazuzu and his work because if he uses big claims they are supported by his production and as far as I am concerned I am satisfied that he has brought up and out many things that are worth discovering and knowing, but I doubt that when you have come out with your condescending discourse on Pazuzu you knew anything abut his work.
So may be you should learn that first and then speak.
As I said, some will be amazed, some not, so are you forcing everybody to be amazed by pazuzu truth? I, myself have read 60 pages , each his post from the begining, have you? Maybe, Most of his work time probably is behind the monitor, googling pictures ,surfing, save people images, map images, modify the map to approve his points, buying books or searching journals from online sources he can find, maybe sometimes in library and some time to discuss with his so called team.
I do respect your support on him, AlQur;an can be very confusing, al'kabah and Muhammad is not been found yet, maybe until one dies the alkabah and real muhammad will not be ever found, but wait pazuzu holds the truth right? so please follow him if you must to be saved in here after
Salaam
Wa alaikum salam
You are a people of a dogmatic sect, asserting that the sect's way is 'the way' and bashing other approaches.
How can the Last Prophet had progenies when he is the SEAL OF THE PROPHET?
Talking gibberish!!!
Maybe because of my english is not perfect. What I'm trying to say is the off spring of Prophet Muhammad who you can find a lot in Yemen, Indonesia. Pazuzu often says something like "yemeni hold the secret of truth, if you ask yemenis thy will not answer you"......Most of the offspring of prophet Muhammad in yemeni's are born in Yemen. So it's a matter who are in Yemen did Pazuzu refer to? off course probably the one that did not contradict his truth
Seriously, did you carry out any research from the Quran itself?
You dont even comprehend the Quran.typical Quranist answer, only you can understand AlQur'an right, only you can comprehend AlQur'an right? only pazuzu is right and his work and word cannot be disturbed, because it serves as THE truth )
So, I never said anything about about prophet-hood seal, which you assume to be handed own to his offspring
I my self is a has been Quran only for more than 20 years, as I recall (more or less). My believe al kabah are the one in Mecca, and one of my prophet is Muhammad. I did not have to defend my believe here, also not forcing my believe, truth to be humanity truth, all I found after studying only Quran. Will you say I'm an kafir, zalim an so on, regarding to your understanding of AlQur'an?
Pazuzu often says 90 percents arab does not understand arabic right? Only him and his follower and perhaps , bunch of people here in free-minds, only understand arabics? bravo Then just believe his truth on humanity. Afterall, Only pazuzu, and bunch of you holds the truth of AlQur'an.
Pazuzu is the master of arabic languanges, master archeologist, master of history, you should believed in him. What he brings from google is a lots, what he bring from quoting partial phrases from related books is a lots, what he bring from letter corresponding with some, h e claimed historian, is a lot.
For me, I did not have to debate my believe and gave my finding on the interpretation of AlQur'an, like most of you actually did in this forum. Iman is in the heart of the believer, Alqur'an has been given and is there for everybody. What you all saying in this forum can be considered as another hadith.
Note this, please do not ever think, just so you are followiing AlQur'an only, then you are believer.
So? can't I express my opinions in this forum? maybe i'm in the worng place then )
Salam
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The Prophet did have daughters (3359, etc) ...
Though the claim that their alleged descendants "reside in Yemen or Indonesia" canNOT be evidenced,
and is completely irrelevant to our salvation, or Divine Guidance for that matter!yes is irrelevant whether they are the off spring of prophets to our salvation. Maybe you misunderstood my point, read again the above reply regarding this matters, I never meant to point prophet hood on his off springs or seal of the prophet or whatever.
I just merely pointed what pazuzu often blabbering about yemenis, that holds the secret and so on, in contrast most of Yemenis stiil doing Pilgrimage to Mecca. I hope you understand, it pazuzu word about yemenis and what yemeni's are actualy doing. but then again perhaps most the yemenis is part of the lies, part of the conspiracies. Only those who pazuzu talked with is the guided one, completely understandable
Salam
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You wrote 'pazuzu' 17 times!
How old are you anyway!?
Sorry for that brother, maybe because English is not my first language, my English is not perfect my Arabic is more less the same. may I ask what are the relevancy of how many times name pazuzu is said? his nick is pazuzu right? And now, I'm on my forty's
Salam
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In your 40's! And you've been a Quranist for more than 20 years! wow!
~ Did you learn something from the Quran alone during these two decades of yours?
I my self is a has been Quran only for more than 20 years, as I recall (more or less).
My believe al kabah are the one in Mecca, and one of my prophet is Muhammad. I did not have to defend my believe here, also not forcing my believe, truth to be humanity truth, all I found after studying only Quran. Will you say I'm an kafir, zalim an so on, regarding to your understanding of AlQur'an?
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Since the name of the thread indicates the serach of Muhammad is end, allow me
Who is Muhammad, or who is the actual prophet that has been given task by Allah to give AlQur;an to humanity? did brother pazuzu finding can named or identified one?What is the insdisputable al kaba'ah stated in AlQur'an, and where is the exact location since al ka'bah is also albayt alharam, albayt al atiq. This albayt (with isim makrifat - not just bayt), considering the lexical meaning, this al bayt should be the most prominent, in the area wherever the last prophet that people of that time can identified with. So where is it brother? Do not use quotes from hadith to answer this (from historian, from non zionist laymen, etc) just simply straight and direct answer on the conclusions...and the answer is ...
1.....?
2.....?Salam
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In your 40's! And you've been a Quranist for more than 20 years! wow!
~ Did you learn something from the Quran alone during these two decades of yours?
I may or may not, depends on one's perspectives. Anyway, not going to explain and defend adn force my finding in AlQur'an here brother, relating to the topics already gave straight and direct answer above.
I just express my opinions on brother pazuzu thread, maybe asking one or two question here )Salam
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ok...see ya then D
hehehe are you migration or census officer brother? fyi I'm not lying, AlQur'an did not teach us to become a liar. I was born on April in 1975. Anyway it's not relevant about my age, it's not about seniority, even little babies is the purest among us all. I will respect if there's a teenage boy or teenage girl give his finding on what he believes on AlQur'an, because there's some portion of truth in there. May I ask is there any relevancy to this? ;D
Salam and take care
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So Kirika.. you are free, I am free, and nobody is an authority, but you ignore I do not know whether deliberatly or not, Pazuzu's worth and work. Throwing stones at other is a rewarding exercise in a sense, but when they other has done a very long hard work on something and has put it at the disposal of other people without expecting any reward, and that work is indeed good, I tend to dislike that. It is much better to come up with some useful criticism if there are grounds for it but not try to put down what others do picking at little straws as if that was a big matter.
Pazuzu is free to get material from wherever he finds it, which is very different from idolizing the sources, he exposes them and everything else very fairly for the people to judge themselves, so your arguments are eminently discardable.
Official or popular history is mostly garbage and cosmetized narrations of the things those who have the power are most comfortable with for the people to believe, truth is of the least concern, but for honnest people, truth, even a glimpse here and there, is liberating, and people have to be called to attention for it to be known, even if the claims sound out of proportion.
For believers in the Qur'an to say that 3isa son of Maryam is not the Jesus of the bible may come as a shock, but it is a very liberating discovery, uncomfortable too in that it automatically sets you off as contradicting many things people are ever so comfortable believing, but nonetheless very liberating andat the same time throws so much more light on the Qur'an ...
Salaam
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Most of popular history garbage and cosmetized naration? I might agree with that. But it does not mean unpopular history is not garbage and not cosmetized. The 'winner' may have propaganda on writing his story but the 'looser' might also have have the same thing.
If your standard like that then, even atheist can give you extensive research with relics, partial quotes from this and that, and quotation to prove God never existed.
I can even brings you books, that claimed prophet Solomon are from java. That books use a lot of research based on relics found Candi borobudur and other relics. The author claims queen of Sheba was Indonesian origin (because there's are old town sabak in central of java). Please note this is only to show that it does not mean not popular history is not Garbages, the above examples are one. Unpopular history even more fragile area because everybody can claim anything they want even without solid evidences and there's no need verification because there's nothing to verified to.
I have said in the first reply, some may be amazed hut some may not and I respect that, including whoever amazed by Pazuzu truth. The problems is the way he state and claimed humanity is at lost because the greatest history turn out to be a lie, not intact with pazuzu (his) story. I hope you understand.
Now I'm waiting pazuzu direct answers, his conclusions about who actually prophet that has been sent to reveal Alquran and where exactly is the alkabah. Maybe you can shred some lights on that
Regarding Isa ibn Maryam that stated in Qur;an is not Iesous, am not going to touch that area, in the end it's only his story. More over, he explicitly eliminating most important factors, in the area of languages, Hebrew languages, Arabic languages and so on. He will tell you only him and certain few understand arabic as most of 90 % arabs did not understand their languages, he also will tell you there are no such thing as Hebrew languages, because the languages has only been constructed in the late 19th centuries. He did that so he can do whatever he wants with the languages to support his truth. He creating his own rules about Semitic languages, most probably, because he think the languages also has been part of Zionist propaganda, that is why I also ask whether he is certified linguist, because I do really want to know his credibility to claim such bold statement.
I'm not going to debate him, it is impossible, even for scholars on respected area of concern (History, linguistic, archaeology..etc) to have discussion with one who created his own rules for everything and stating that rules is the truth because is not part Zionist movement, imperialist, belong to minority ( and so on). I was curious after Hebrew languages is not Hebrew, Arabic is not from it's origins, Jesus is not Isa ibn maryam, Muhammad is not Muhammad, will he goes on saying Allah is not Allah in the end? who knows
may Allah protect us all.
Salam -
Most of popular history garbage and cosmetized naration? I might agree with that. But it does not mean unpopular history is not garbage and not cosmetized. The 'winner' may have propaganda on writing his story but the 'looser' might also have have the same thing.
If your standard like that then, even atheist can give you extensive research with relics, partial quotes from this and that, and quotation to prove God never existed.
I can even brings you books, that claimed prophet Solomon are from java. That books use a lot of research based on relics found Candi borobudur and other relics. The author claims queen of Sheba was Indonesian origin (because there's are old town sabak in central of java). Please note this is only to show that it does not mean not popular history is not Garbages, the above examples are one. Unpopular history even more fragile area because everybody can claim anything they want even without solid evidences and there's no need verification because there's nothing to verified to.
I have said in the first reply, some may be amazed hut some may not and I respect that, including whoever amazed by Pazuzu truth. The problems is the way he state and claimed humanity is at lost because the greatest history turn out to be a lie, not intact with pazuzu (his) story. I hope you understand.
Now I'm waiting pazuzu direct answers, his conclusions about who actually prophet that has been sent to reveal Alquran and where exactly is the alkabah. Maybe you can shred some lights on that
Salam
Salam. Pazuzu and his friends wrote about their research and thought. Don't look into their profiles , instead look into what they wrote. Then decide. We should thank them instead of criticize their personality or their style of writing. No one is infallible. If you have anything to add or to show where they make mistake , please write it down for all of us to read. Don't be judgemental.
Muhammad Asad (The Message Of Quran)
3918 who listen to all that is said, and follow the best of it it is they whom God has graced with His guidance, and it is they who are endowed with insight! -
Salam. Pazuzu and his friends wrote about their research and thought. Don't look into their profiles , instead look into what they wrote. Then decide. We should thank them instead of criticize their personality or their style of writing. No one is infallible. If you have anything to add or to show where they make mistake , please write it down for all of us to read. Don't be judgemental.
Muhammad Asad (The Message Of Quran)
3918 who listen to all that is said, and follow the best of it it is they whom God has graced with His guidance, and it is they who are endowed with insight!ok thank you for the remainder borther.
handshakeThe only thing at his profile page that I click is to show his post on this forum, I read them all. I have no intention to do personal attack here, I'm questioning the most fundamental things, his methodology, not in details, but more general terms whether he is credible or not, whether he have solid background or not. Because for me, it such bold statement or thought claiming humanity is at lost as the greatest history is a nothing but a lie. Such a arrogant statements, if I may say.
Should you look at carefully his work, he often attack personally on scholars on many areas, as I recall, only blaming them as a part of Zionist movement, and so on, baseless accusation . He attacked Arabs, Jewish, and so on. So, I hope you are not saying, it's alright for him to tell other, their finding is garbage, part of propaganda, but for others is prohibited to say the same thing about his findings?
Impossible for me or others to show his mistakes, he uses so many hadith, how can we verify his hadith? by giving him another hadith? by giving him another version of history? this will end in indefinite circles, about who is right and who is not. More over, also it seems his creating his own rules on languages, and history etc.
Salam )
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Most of popular history garbage and cosmetized naration? I might agree with that. But it does not mean unpopular history is not garbage and not cosmetized. The 'winner' may have propaganda on writing his story but the 'looser' might also have have the same thing.
If your standard like that then, even atheist can give you extensive research with relics, partial quotes from this and that, and quotation to prove God never existed.
I can even brings you books, that claimed prophet Solomon are from java. That books use a lot of research based on relics found Candi borobudur and other relics. The author claims queen of Sheba was Indonesian origin (because there's are old town sabak in central of java). Please note this is only to show that it does not mean not popular history is not Garbages, the above examples are one. Unpopular history even more fragile area because everybody can claim anything they want even without solid evidences and there's no need verification because there's nothing to verified to.
I have said in the first reply, some may be amazed hut some may not and I respect that, including whoever amazed by Pazuzu truth. The problems is the way he state and claimed humanity is at lost because the greatest history turn out to be a lie, not intact with pazuzu (his) story. I hope you understand. )
Now I'm waiting pazuzu direct answers, his conclusions about who actually prophet that has been sent to reveal Alquran and where exactly is the alkabah. Maybe you can shred some lights on that )
Regarding Isa ibn Maryam that stated in Qur;an is not Iesous, am not going to touch that area, in the end it's only his story. More over, he explicitly eliminating most important factors, in the area of languages, Hebrew languages, Arabic languages and so on. He will tell you only him and certain few understand arabic as most of 90 % arabs did not understand their languages, he also will tell you there are no such thing as Hebrew languages, because the languages has only been constructed in the late 19th centuries. He did that so he can do whatever he wants with the languages to support his truth. He creating his own rules about Semitic languages, most probably, because he think the languages also has been part of Zionist propaganda, that is why I also ask whether he is certified linguist, because I do really want to know his credibility to claim such bold statement.
I'm not going to debate him, it is impossible, even for scholars on respected area of concern (History, linguistic, archaeology..etc) to have discussion with one who created his own rules for everything and stating that rules is the truth because is not part Zionist movement, imperialist, belong to minority ( and so on). I was curious after Hebrew languages is not Hebrew, Arabic is not from it's origins, Jesus is not Isa ibn maryam, Muhammad is not Muhammad, will he goes on saying Allah is not Allah in the end? who knows )
may Allah protect us all.
SalamCome on.You were condescending with Pazuzu before. Now you are condescending with all of us. You make too much of yourself and too little of others. Of course we know what we read and of course some of us know ?rabic and of course some or manny of us have enough knowledge and intelect to make out an arrogant boaster and to acknowledge an honest worker. You may be have problems for that, I do not have any. Do not measure everybody up by your standars, we are in no need of a nanny in order not to get lost.
Do as faruk say. If you find something specific that you are able to analise and criticise with a bsis, do it. Qualigying peoples capacities on your own ideas of what they are, seems like damned big conceit.
You do not seem to grasp that when somebody, like most muslims has been fed on certain "histories" and that sets the ideological ground intheir make up, to shake that really amounts to what Pazuzu says, and when he says it, he is simple preparing people for the shock they will not fail to receive, you included. So much so that probably you are not usually as conceited as you appear here, but merely the shock you are under makes you behave like that. You may deny it, but you have all the indications of having suffered a shock.
But realise Pazuzu with his to you arrogant claims, wanted to caution you on that.
So , in my opinion, you are really indebted with Pazuzu for his great consideration in having peoples feelings in mind before dropping his historical Bo-mb.
Get over the shock and bring something that is not merely name calling and wild assumptions on the capacities of other people.
Salaam
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Salaam,
I beg everyone's pardon for my anger and frustration. What is so special about the Ka'aba? Please someone knowledgeable correct me if I am wrong owing to memory, but the Quran does not give it any significance at all, it is not even worthy and so never mentioned or referred to. What is referenced is Masjid Al Haram, and The Blessed House. Both of these DO NOT equal the Ka'aba, period. The Ka'aba, and its rituals mimic astrological worship rituals and it is beyond a blasphemous shame - that the Quran's verses or God's All honorable attributes/names be mentioned in prayer in such a disgusted perverted setup.
The straight path is not that you turn towards the east or the west.
I can't say I agree with Pazuzu, because I have not comprehensively studied his work, but from what I have read, I say it's possible. Anything for that matter is possible, since I was not there as a witness to the events. Even so, the kind of things that established history follows is illogical to the last degree - I speak of religious histories - not history constructed based on archaeological evidence - but history from oral traditions.
There are some things, that are blatantly illogical and senseless, ridiculous. Most unfortunately these are the sort of things the "Ummah" and it's "great" leaders today are partial to - superstitions and aberrations of the supreme kind. No don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with a ritual prayer, there is nothing wrong with having rites - so long as there is a righteous purpose, and they are used as a means to an end.
Such history and its stories are riddled with illogical and reality defying elements, stamped by the "genius" of shayateen. The stories aren't clever in themselves, but that human beings succumb and allow themselves to be mislead, and perceive desert sand as water. All evil motivated "scheming" leads to disaster, just like Iblis' and the shayateen's very own eventually will.
God stresses in the Quran for us to reflect, ponder, and use the senses that are given to us for they will be judged. I've heard some smart alecs think that since it is their leaders (imams, sheikhs, scholars etc) are the ones at fault, their followers will be forgiven for not knowing - this is ultimate bull crap. On top of these, there are those who believe that their own sect is rightly guided - just look at where they stand now. There are over a billion people who make the "pilgrimage" to that perverted cube in mecca, many 100 000s are strict in observing the so called 5 pillars of Islam, - why then are they so unsuccessful as a community? why are they being hammered from everywhere? they can't even be peaceful among themselves. This is because the curse of God is upon the hypocrites.
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Brother huruf,
You are right brother ) Im' not going to deny there's a bit of shock there. I was shocked how garbage, craps can be the base for claiming humanity great history is a lie, how such man made garbage that pazuzu quotes serves as the base to discredit AlQur'an truth. The only thing that I indebted to pazuzu is for wasting my time to read such bull craps. Before you attack on this general statements, look at carefully, this thread on the general issues board and I'm asking general question about his work, and still no answer from him...
I'm now begining to see historical pattern here. When Bukhari work is done, in his day, the followers, traditionalist , or whatever you might call them, they fell indebted, liberated perhaps. When Bukhari is criticized, the one who think Bukhari work is liberating, fulfilling, they're also going to say (more or less) like some who defend pazuzu's, saying "look at the amount of work his done", "an honest worker, and so on".
Bro, You cannot judge whether someone honest or not only by looking at amount of work he has done without expecting reward, Are you saying dishonest man otherwise?? come on!! have you known him personally? or you just more like Bukhari, when he labelled some narrator that he did not see as tsiqah and adl, and so on? There might be hidden agenda by pazuzu. To avoid unnecessary reply on this, how do you know and believe for sure there' isn't? are you developing ?iman/believe? towards this guys?s word?
I have seen some, has been deluded by pazuzu truth, not all, only some tiny portion member of the forum perhaps, Alhamdulillah.... in Sha Allah, the garbages will not break outside from its small fans club.
Why did I not brings data to his arguments? For several times now, the point is, whether some brings data or not, the discussion going to be endless debate. Look at the history of this thread and another reply by pazuzu. Some bring another archaeological things, he will call it ?insane?, ?garbage?, part of ?Zionist movement?, and so on. Because he believe his data is the most accurate one (although lack in evidences). Some try to bring linguistic approach, he change the rule of Arabic language (proper noun to noun as he likes) he will stress how the Arabic has been part of lie, how Arab did not understand the language as he is! brickwall
The same thing happen, some bring Hebrew languages and bammm!!! Hebrew languages only has been constructed in late 19th centuries (yet he often quote from old testament)..I think I stressed this matter in this thread to many times ..doh confused? I think even the most resourceful scholars will not win debate with the one who make their own rules and use slander as a responds, I doubt the resourceful scholar even tried to debate him. brickwall
I think you have enough intellectuality to know, out there, among the Archaeologist (a real one!) this topics also becoming an endless debate. The debate between Maximalist versus Minimalist among the scholar (real archaeologist on real expedition, not google base one) happened for quite sometimes now. Bernard Lehman (one of pazuzu ulama) is from the minimalist side as professor Kalibi(another his ulama), whom happned to be lebannese, also from minimalist side ( I might assume there a national interest for pazuzu to defend kalibi's here, I hope I'm wrong). Both sides (maximalist and minimalist) will bring you indisputable archaeological evidences.
You should also probably know, among minimalist also have different views and different agendas, this because the lack of evidences they had. Here, again you might stresses out how maximalist (popular) is cosmetized, fabricated and so on, and the debate never going to end! Let us see how many evidences maximalist discovered had and how many evidences minimalist discovered? Minimalist, (might also supported by you) then says the evidences found ifs fabricated and there we go again the zero sum game.
In the end minimalist will admit the lack evidences they had, compare to the Maximalist (it's a fact). This due to little support they have and get, in terms of funding bravo. So it become the battle to get the funding (we?re talking million and millions of dollars). They are dying to get recognized. Minimalist dying to acquire portion of the ?cake? to prove their hypothesis, theory at best. Their end game? The bible is correct (for both sides)!! Lehman also stating about the funding which is not useful to the other side, why kalibis? did not stand out and get more attention because of funding etc. So, It?s not always black and white brother. nope
Salam