The Search for Muhammad has Ended
-
Great article Bro Pazuzu, bravo
I do like your rendition regarding "gawa3id stagnant", same word used for "al gawa3id min an-nisaa'" (24 60) and the similar figurative meaning in verse (16 26) where even "bunian " does not mean concrete building.
Until you come to where you write
{And We showed Abraham the location of the House "Do not set up anyone with Me, and purify My House for those who visit, and those who are standing, and the kneeling, the prostrating}...
Allah led him to it (helped him find its location).
This is where you slip. The verse shows clearly where the Bayt is where nothing is associated with God.
The other point you did not ponder on is the description of the Bayt as "haraam" and "muhar-ram". I hope you do not take it for granted as meaning "sacred". It IS forbidden.
Where do we find (not to associate others with God) and (forbidden) in one verse which, later shows that this IS the "deen" of Ibrahim?
Say, "Come, I will recite what your Lord has prohibited to you. that you not associate anything with Him, (6151) And ths is nothing but the Straight Path (6153)
After reciting all this which is "hurrim", we read in verse 6161Say, "Indeed, my Lord has guided me to a straight path - a correct religion - the way of Abraham, inclining toward truth. And he was not among those who associated others with Allah."
So why associate a valley, a sanctuary or any building with God?
-
Dear Pazuzu,
I love your energy and thinking "out of the box" - but you keep making leaps in logic which to me have no basis from the Quran.
Let me explain
I believe the time has come to put this issue to rest once and for all.
Abraham did not BUILD anything. There is no structure of any kind mentioned in the Quran, having to do with al-Bayt. The word "qawa3id" does NOT mean "foundations" in that context. and Abraham didn't "raise" anything.
What do you think about that?
This false idea must be cleared from our heads if we are to understand what is going on.
The FM translation says
{And as Abraham raised from the Sanctuary its foundations, along with Ishmael "Our Lord accept this from us, You are the Hearer, the Knowledgeable."}...
The Arabic text says "Yarfa3u' l qawa3id min al bayti".
The word "yarfa3u" here means he REMOVED or LIFTED something FROM al bayt. There were certain things that were "qawa3id" (stagnating or fixed for a long time), and Abraham removed them.
This is similar to Allah telling Muhamad
{Did We not comfort your chest * And take from you your load * Which had put strain on your back?}...
Note the expression "take from you your load". It means Allah REMOVED the load that was straining Muhamad's back. The Arabic text says "narfa3u 3anka" (We "lifted it" or "removed it".
Abraham REMOVED something.
Now, I believe the word "qawa3id" can also mean "something which has been sitting, or stagnating, or fixed in its place for a long time".
So what is the verse talking about?
The answer to this puzzle is found elsewhere in the Quran. Pay attention to this
{....And We entrusted to Abraham and Ishmael "You shall purify My Sanctuary for those who visit, and those who are devoted, and the kneeling, the prostrating."}...
They PURIFIED the sanctuary. They did not build anything. The Sanctuary was already there.
It was Allah who had shown Abraham the location of this Santuary (Bayt), and then commanded him to "clean it"
{And We showed Abraham the location of the House "Do not set up anyone with Me, and purify My House for those who visit, and those who are standing, and the kneeling, the prostrating}...
Allah led him to it (helped him find its location).
The Sanctuary of Allah is a natural place. It is not a structure of any kind. The CUBE that we see today in Mecca, which has been destroyed several times, was not built by Abraham. It is a PAGAN stucture that has nothing to do with Islam whatsoever.
So what did Abraham do? He CLEANED the place. He lifted / removed ("yarfa3u" the UNCLEAN things which were stiing there / had stagnated there ("qawa3id".
Abraham removed idols which had been put in the Santuary. He didn't BUILD anything. The Santuary was there since the time of Adam.
I like the evidence you have presented even though I do not agree. The reason I do not agree is that if the structure was already standing as you state, then verse 2226 does not carry much meaning that God would need to "inspire/lead him" to it. Especially that Abraham and Lot were already led to the Holy Land after they left their people. Also, "qawa3d" has been used clearly in the Quran to signify "foundation" - thus Abraham "raised from the foundation the Bayt".
So if it is not a structure, then what is it?
Again, the answer is found in the Quran
{Our Rabb, I have resided part of my progeny in an uncultivated valley, at your Restricted Sanctuary}...
The Arabic text says "3inda baytika al-Muharram" the word "3inda" means AT, not "NEAR" as the FM translation says.
Conclusion The Bayt (Sanctuary) is a secluded VALE somewhere up in the Heights of Asir. Abraham cleaned it by removing the idols which had been placed in it. ("yarfa3u 'l qawa3id min al Bayti ). This vale had been sacred to the inhabitants of this region since the dawn of time.
And it is the SAME valley where Allah spoke to Moses, and told him to remove his slippers.
Here is where you have abondoned the Quran to desire...Where did you get "Asir" from? Your argument about the foundation was supported at least by some verses - but then you make a quantum leap in logic and bring a subject matter without any such support.
This leap of logic is also why you are trying to force the story of Moses to be in Asir as you realize that Moses needed to be close to the holy valley since he speaks with God on his way from Egypt to Midian.
Also, I wil add that there is no such place in Jerusalem.
There is no valley in Jerusalem? Are you sure? Just look at a map - the Kidron valley runs adjacent to the Temple Mount and runs all the way to the Dead Sea (the sea of Lot). If Lot resided at the end of the valley, then that would make him "near/at the Temple".
-
Now, I believe the word "qawa3id" can also mean "something which has been sitting, or stagnating, or fixed in its place for a long time".
One may say that in keeping with the basic perception infolded in the Root one may infer that sitting or location of a thing at one point may after a long period result in its stagnation. But one should never forget that each Arabic word is made/constructed according to a specific "frame" which gives it specific meaning and connotations in addition to the basic meanings infolded in the Root. The word is broken plural, feminine and is the object of the verb. The verb is raising not throwing away.
And in 2460 it is the Subject of the Sentence in nominative case, and their specific trait also defines who these women are. Would one say, "Stagnant subset of women".
-
One may say that in keeping with the basic perception infolded in the Root one may infer that sitting or location of a thing at one point may after a long period result in its stagnation. But one should never forget that each Arabic word is made/constructed according to a specific "frame" which gives it specific meaning and connotations in addition to the basic meanings infolded in the Root. The word is broken plural, feminine and is the object of the verb. The verb is raising not throwing away.
And in 2460 it is the Subject of the Sentence in nominative case, and their specific trait also defines who these women are. Would one say, "Stagnant subset of women".
Gawa3id is the plural of "ga3ida" which can mean "principle" or "a female" who is immobile. Thus they both share the immobilization. You do not have to translate it into "Stagnant woman", though "stagnant" also means "immobile". It's choice of translation. Arabic has no problem in describing "principles" and "women" in the same manner as you see in both verses.
According to your line of thinking, would one say "the foundation from women"? -
Dear IAMOP
You are mixing between the Masjid Haram abd Bayt al- Haram. They are not the same thing.
Peace
Thank you.
Well, we need to observe where Al-Masjid Al Haram meets Bayt Al-Haram.
This for the time being is no other than Mecca. See the power of that cube to draw the entire world's muslims together in a beautiful orbiting lightshow? Thus you see the power of ALLAH to draw us all together.
There is no need to reject sunnah or hadeeth, there is so much wisdom and so much work of our forefathers that went into it. We have a choice waste it or USE it.
A further knowledge of this can be arrived at using the study of lagrangian dynamics. I do not know it yet but basically a Lagrange point is a point of stability in the universe where gravity cancels to zero. If you stand in a Lagrange point you just float.
Mecca is a gravitomagnetic lagrange point which is what creates the unity there. However Mecca is now withering away to reveal the REAL bayt-ul-haram and the REAL Al-Masjid Al-Haram. But do not discount the experiences of all those Muslims who went to Mecca and truly did feel at peace, at unity.
Real islam is knowing how to bow down with those who bow and standing with those who stand. It is a merging of the inner and outer realities to know what truly is REALITY AL-HAQQ.
All praise be to ALLH who is exalted in might and the most wise. Most surely ALLH knows how to draw people together to the right time and place to do the right things, without ALLH who is there that can do this?
-
Peace
Thank you.
Well, we need to observe where Al-Masjid Al Haram meets Bayt Al-Haram.
This for the time being is no other than Mecca. See the power of that cube to draw the entire world's muslims together in a beautiful orbiting lightshow? Thus you see the power of ALLAH to draw us all together.
A further knowledge of this can be arrived at using the study of lagrangian dynamics. I do not know it yet but basically a Lagrange point is a point of stability in the universe where gravity cancels to zero. If you stand in a Lagrange point you just float.
Mecca is a gravitomagnetic lagrange point which is what creates the unity there. However Mecca is now withering away to reveal the REAL bayt-ul-haram and the REAL Al-Masjid Al-Haram. But do not discount the experiences of all those Muslims who went to Mecca and truly did feel at peace, at unity.
Real islam is knowing how to bow down with those who bow and standing with those who stand. It is a merging of the inner and outer realities to know what truly is REALITY AL-HAQQ.
All praise be to ALLH who is exalted in might and the most wise. Most surely ALLH knows how to draw people together to the right time and place to do the right things, without ALLH who is there that can do this?
bravo
-
Peace
Thank you.
Well, we need to observe where Al-Masjid Al Haram meets Bayt Al-Haram.
This for the time being is no other than Mecca. See the power of that cube to draw the entire world's muslims together in a beautiful orbiting lightshow? Thus you see the power of ALLAH to draw us all together.
Saaam
The underlined sentence alone is proof that whatever you are talking about is definitely not the "Bayt" of God which is for ALL PEOPLE.
-
Does this mean that al masjid ul haram is completely different from al bayt ul haram? Since one is for all the people and the other is prohibited to the idolators?
And what about these "mu'mins" the following verse speaks about are they or are they not allowed into al masid ul haram? Who decides?And most of them believe not in Allah without associating partners with Him! (12 106)
-
-
A fact is mentioned. Most of the people believe in Allah have faith and belief in Allah in a manner that side by side they keep associating partners with Allah.
Why shouldn't the same rule apply to your verse?
Both verses were revealed in the same era to the same messenger. Why is one applicable today and the other is left (mahjoura stuck in the past times)?
What about my other questions?
-
refers and signifies only those active participles who worship sculpted statues by giving them hypotetical names and declaring them as various Ilaha of people. Some Christians even said that Jesus is but Allah, but they are not called .
The first reply on this issue was only to indicate an exception to this ""Bayt" of God which is for ALL PEOPLE".
-
The first reply on this issue was only to indicate an exception to this ""Bayt" of God which is for ALL PEOPLE".
Relying on this understanding of yours, I will consider it as a reply to the first question In your opinion, Bayt haram and masjid haram are completely two different "buildings", and they have to be away from each other, too.
Am I correct? -
So how can all the people be allowed into the bayt without coming near the masjid?
The exception/prohibition brought in from a certain point in time. Not allowing nearing Masjid automatically disallows specified people from Albait which can be approached only through first passing into Masjid.
-
The exception/prohibition brought in from a certain point in time. Not allowing nearing Masjid automatically disallows specified people from Albait which can be approached only through first passing into Masjid.
You have no right to annul an order by God that the bayt is for all people, mentioned more than once , at the expense of masjid where the order to keep mushriks away from it happened only once, just to establish your specific understanding Nowhere in the qur'aan do we have the bayt meaning the masjid or in its vicinity.
-
Salaam Pazuzu,
I come to this Forum only to read your posts.
I agree that the other thread became a circus, and this one is in danger of becoming so, too.
I wish people could spare us their pathetic comments, and have patience to wait for you to expose your claims.
I hope you will have the energy and will to continue giving us the precious and logical explanations and information.I shall use this opportunity to congratulate you on your posts which are logical. very well written, seriously exposed and clearly outlined.
I agree with almost all your claims, and they've helped me to understand many unclear parts of the translations of the Qur'an and Islam.
Thank you!
-
Salaam Godsubmitter
I do not know what you mean by the thread became a circus. I do not think discussing the masjid or bayt are alien to the subject. If "Muslims" believe that the hajj in its present form was practiced by Muhammad, then he must have been in Mecca. Just saying I do not believe Mecca existed is not enough as long as there is no evidence. Actually, this "circus" you are talking about, here or in the other thread, is full of more evidence than bro Pazuzu submitted, and they could be very helpful to him since he is researching. They do not have to support his theory to be beneficial. In my opinion, those who clap and show complete support without even discussing anything do him more bad than good.
Moreover, we are writing, not talking so that Pazuzu or anyone waits for the us to calm down. He can continue with his thread and later respond to the questions. But neither you nor anyone else has the right to silence people. The thread has not been hijacked by a theme that has nothing to do with where Muhammad is. If Pazuzu wanted to finish his thread without giving others the opportunity to discuss it, he could have posted it all at once. -
If Pazuzu wanted to finish his thread without giving others the opportunity to discuss it, he could have posted it all at once.
As Layeth has done it recently. I may propose that he may put all his article in one go, which might not involve more effort on his part than cut and paste from his computer, by opening a new thread titled the same. And I am sure that thereby his admirers would also not have pass comments like "haphazardly".
