Is there a single Muslim on this whole website?
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Ted,
Due to appreciation that God took them away from the tyranny of Pharaoh. It was just an example, maybe not the best example for a person who sees Allah like an (a separate) object/image with rituals.
If you take a look at fasting in Quran it is a self-inflicted punishment to repent in case you did something bad. That it is to show grief is a logical explanation. And so is to fast to learn to reduce their worldliness. It is easy to get absorbed in the flesh and you may want to remind yourself about your priorities. Also indulging in much food can make some people blind to what they eat.
Salaam
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Ted,
Due to appreciation that God took them away from the tyranny of Pharaoh. It was just an example, maybe not the best example for a person who sees Allah like an (a separate) object/image with rituals.
If you take a look at fasting in Quran it is a self-inflicted punishment to repent in case you did something bad. That it is to show grief is a logical explanation. And so is to fast to learn to reduce their worldliness. It is easy to get absorbed in the flesh and you may want to remind yourself about your priorities. Also indulging in much food can make some people blind to what they eat.
Salaam
Sorry but you did not answer any of my questions by quoting from the Quran.
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Paganism is fundamentally
Making god(s) into (an) image(s). Does not matter if the God is called Allah.
Worship of the same image in an attempt to please it in very primitive ways.
Seemingly meaningless rituals considered the lack of need for any rituals due to that the real Allah does not really need it. And you cannot bribe Allah. Plus Allah has no ego.
Misconception that leads to separation of Allah through image-making from the real concept of merging and become assimilated with the phenomenon of Allah and to walk in its spirit.
It also often leads to animosity because people consider "their god" (image) to be better than another Pagan sect's god and what that image revealed in terms of religion and rituals. Quran gives example of that in a quarrel between what it calls Yahood and Nasara, despite that both pursue the same knowledge, yet the already failed because they make images (traditionally idolatry). It is a bit ironical that you can commit idolatry with Allah, but you can. Their prophets are often the real images however and this becomes stronger for those who indulge in a lot of falsehood (like Muslims tragically have done in ignorance). Muhammad is as much idol.as Jesus and none is better than the other. It does not really matter about that Muslims refrain from the son word because it is still on the same level of fixation.
Sorry, I don't think you really understand paganism and it's history. It might help to read the Bible and ask those who are pagans today why they are pagans.
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The website should upload only meaningful subjects or Questions. Whoever accepts "La Ilaha Illa Allahu Muhammadur Rasulullah" is a muslim. No body has right except Allah to question about somebodys Islam. Please think of the present problems faced by Islamic world and how to improve it instead of discussing such useless subjects.
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The website should upload only meaningful subjects or Questions. Whoever accepts "La Ilaha Illa Allahu Muhammadur Rasulullah" is a muslim. No body has right except Allah to question about somebodys Islam. Please think of the present problems faced by Islamic world and how to improve it instead of discussing such useless subjects.
Thanks for your comment. However it's not as simple as someone accepting "La Ilaha Illa Allahu Muhammadur Rasulullah" and you become a muslim. It's far from that. In fact that just shows a high level of ignorance of the Quran and other scriptures. I would advise that you read and try to understand the Quran.
The present problems in the Islamic world are in a great part due to ignorance of the Quran. It would help a great deal if the muslims could actually stop and think for a moment in what they actually believe in and saying.
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Ted,
That is the real Paganism if you mind me. Making an image out of God no matter one or several gods is Paganism. It does not matter if the image is abstract or concrete.
Salaam
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Ted,
That it is a self-inflicted punishment you can read yourself in Quran. If you do things wrong you can fast to atone for it.
And you do not need Quran to realize it is a way of showing grief or to see its usefulness to limit your worldliness.
Salaam
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Peace Man of Faith,
Those passages do not speak of any timing. The timing inference is incorrect, everywhere in Quran. I have a few months old translations regarding the passages in my 'Nearness and Guidance' thread somewhere on the forum. I am wiser since then, but overall the translations should be fairly accurate.
And minding your ways is perfectly viable to teach your children. It is the best way and to enable a person to think for themselves. It means mind how you are. There are even parents who say to their children to mind their ways.
And no matter if I am not right about an individual letter it is hardly conjecture because you have at least a few examples in Quran where the letter(s) are followed by a conjunction. It forces the letter to have its own meaning no matter what you say or it is utterly illogical and a weird text.
Be good is part of your ways. And ways includes everything that this ancient text teaches as well. And sometimes a choice is not good but it is the wisest you can do. See in war contexts for example when you sacrifice individual soldiers for some mission where you choose the lesser of two evils. This does not have to be something you can categorize as good.
You need to understand the knowledge and wisdom of God.
While with God everything is good, in this world then due to Satan this is not always possible, but you can always do the lesser of two evils which was wise even if it is hardly good.
Mind your ways is just this, to be able to reflect upon what kind of consequences every little action will cause. It is general on your whole life. You may not always be able to do absolutely good but if you minded the options then at least you tried.
And killing someone in the course of justice is not good, even if sometimes a necessary evil. Can you then forgive an offense, then that is good.
Whereas I agree about the importance of minding one's ways for spiritual progress, I completely disagree with your mistranslation of "aqimi al-salat" as "mind your ways".
You still have not disclosed the source of your secret innate letter meanings, which makes it obvious that your letter meanings are pure conjecture.
You still haven't shown how minding your ways COMMANDS YOU how to lead your life (1187).
You still have not given complete translations of 1778, 11114, 2458 according to your current understanding, to see if it makes any sense. You referred me to your translations in another thread using your older understanding of salat
1187 They said O Shuayb, does your commanded behavior of yours mean that we leave what our fathers served, or that we do not do with our money as we please? It seems only you are the compassionate, the wise!
11114 ...and keep the behavior in control and by the near part of the night the good deeds take away the bad. This is a concern to those who are concerned.
Note I have reached to the conclusion that the first phrase in 11114 ( ِ is an Arabic saying because it seems not possible to take it literally. 11113 is highly related to 11114 and should not be left out when trying to comprehend the context.1778 Mind the behavior till the setting of the sun; to the murkiness of the night; and recitation at "dawn" - recitation at "dawn" is kept.
Note I do not entirely accept the interpretation of (al-fajr) I am going to look further into that issue at some point, but literally it is a disaster. One alternative would be that to focus on the written text on how to behave. If you study earlier passages in the context you see that the prophet nearly made a slip of tongue due to peer pressure. God is somewhat displeased in the context.2458 O you who are ones (thereof), instruct those who are maintained by your oaths and those who have not perfected their ways among you, about three things; firstly about behavior of wickedness, and then example on how to physically appear, and lastly about behavior of courtesy. These are three instructions for you. After this it is no sin for you or them to challenge/discuss between one another. God thus clarifies the revelations for you. And God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
Note This passage has been SOO much of a nuisance, but I have learned a great deal by studying it and trying to reveal the false links. "Fajr" has an alternative interpretation (3828, 8042, 8214 and 837) according to the 'Corpus Qur'an' website and is wicked (F = Exclusion J = Humble R = Foundation) which actually suits the context very well about behavior and on "esha" I simply had to cross-check all occurrences of the word and draw the conclusion of its meaning together with my knowledge of the innate meaning of the letters. is sort of association or even appreciation. It is used in which means appreciate and is when a person "appreciates/attributes himself towards evil". would indicate "Upon Appreciation Be". I would never have gotten this far without my latest insight into the innate meaning of the Arabic letters.http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605447.msg358252#msg358252
As everyone can clearly see in that post of yours, those translations did not make any sense and you deliberately omitted a phrase of the Arabic text of 11114 out of your translation. In 1778 you mistranslated "li" as "till". In 1187 instead of saying "behavior commands you", you said "commanded behavior of yours". In 1778 you translated "fajr" as "dawn", but in 2458 you translated it as "wickedness". I think that is intellectual dishonesty and deception.
Can you translate just those 4 verses again using your new understanding since you claim to be wiser now?
I have proved to you from al-quran, using it as its own dictionary, that salat is "turning towards" (7531-32). Clearly "aqimi al-salat" is a method of turning towards the infinite Creator at certain times of the day to find/discover how to mind your ways, and not "mind your ways" by itself.
I agree with a lot of your general views but please be intellectually honest when you translate an Arabic text and bring forth your proof if you are truthful (2875). Otherwise anyone can arbitrarily translate ANYTHING to mean ANYTHING they desire using conjecture.
May the infinite Creator guide us to the truth.
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I am bringing your last comment affront because this contradicts the understanding how the term ?muslim? and ?islam? has been used in Qur?an. All your arguments seem to be based on the idea that ?islam? or being ?muslim? is a higher quality that we should strive to achieve ? it is not a mandatory requirement. That simply doesn?t seem to match what Qur?an says. Let?s explore the below verses
383 So, do they seek (ways) besides Allah?s resolution (ِ, while whatever is in the heavens and the earth have submitted to Him willingly or under compulsion, and they will be returned to Him?
384 Say, ?We put faith in Allah and what is sent down on us and what was sent down on Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes and what was given to Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Master. We do not differentiate among any of them and we are submissive (َ to Him.
385 And whoever seeks a resolution (ا other than peace/submission (ِ then never will (it) be accepted from him and in the hereafter he will be among the losers.
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
You seem to think that the above verses are saying that it is a mandatory requirement to become a muslim. The above verses are not referring to being a muslim but following the religion/path of God. You use the word "resolution" in your translation. I don't think this is an appropriate word in this case.
According some dictionary definitions this is what resolution means
resolution (rzlun)
n- the act or an instance of resolving
- the condition or quality of being resolute; firmness or determination
- something resolved or determined; decision
- a formal expression of opinion by a meeting, esp one agreed by a vote
- (Law) a judicial decision on some matter; verdict; judgment
Instead of resolution I think "path of God" or "religion of God" are more appropriate. It would help if you could also describe your understanding of the term "muslim" and "islam". As I explained before, muslim is a term applied to a being or beings who submit to the will of God by listening to his will or following his commands from a book and doing it for the sake of obeying God. This does not apply if those beings are acting according to their natural ability to do good, their God gifted nature of doing good, since they are not knowingly doing it for God. I shall try to clarify this later from the Quran.
Verses 383-85. Need to be understood in the context they are being revealed in. If you look at the prior verses they are referring to people who have had a book revealed to them from God.
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There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, "That is from Allah," but it is not from Allah. It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it!
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It is not (possible) that a man, to whom is given the Book, and Wisdom, and the prophetic office, should say to people "Be ye my worshippers rather than Allah.s" on the contrary (He would say) "Be ye worshippers of Him Who is truly the Cherisher of all For ye have taught the Book and ye have studied it earnestly."
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Nor would he instruct you to take angels and prophets for Lords and patrons. What! would he bid you to unbelief after ye have bowed your will (To Allah in Islam)?
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Behold! Allah took the covenant of the prophets, saying "I give you a Book and Wisdom; then comes to you an apostle, confirming what is with you; do ye believe in him and render him help." Allah said "Do ye agree, and take this my Covenant as binding on you?" They said "We agree." He said "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses."
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If any turn back after this, they are perverted transgressors.
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Do they seek for other than the Religion of Allah.-while all creatures in the heavens and on earth have, willing or unwilling, bowed to His Will (Accepted Islam), and to Him shall they all be brought back.
The verses above are saying that prophets who have been given a Book would never ask people to be their worshippers. But instead a prophet would say that you should worship God only because you people (most likely this is referring to the Jews or some other people who have been given the Book) are teaching the Book and you study it earnestly. Those people (ie. the Jews or some other people who have been given the Book) that turn away from this and create their own religion and say it is from God are liars and perverted transgressors. So any people who had been following a Book from God who then begin a new religion and say it is from God, they are liars and perverted transgressors. This I believe is the root of some pagan religions.
Verse 383 then says do these liars seek a religion other than what God has revealed when all creatures in heaven and earth have willingly or unwillingly. So these people of the Book who lie and create a false religion do they seek a religion other than what God has revealed.
Verse 384 then describes God telling the prophet Mohammed to say that he and his followers declare that they believe in what was revealed to Abraham and the other prophets and that the prophet Mohammed and his followers make no differences between what was revealed to those prophets. To them they are all the same since they were all following a revelation/inspiration from God. This is to confirm that there is only one religion/path of God regardless of whther the people call themselves Jews, followers of Abraham or Christians. There can be no pagan religion and the prophet Mohammed has not brought a new religion. It's the same one that was revealed to the other prophets. This is where most Muslims/Jews/Christians/Hindus,etc. become confused. They see each other as being from different religions even though they believe in one Creator adn Almighty being.
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If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah., never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).
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How shall Allah Guide those who reject Faith after they accepted it and bore witness that the Messenger was true and that Clear Signs had come unto them? but Allah guides not a people unjust.
Verse 385 above then says that anyone who desires/seeks a religion other an submitting to the will of God it will never be accepted of him. The next verse 385 says how can God guide those who choose not follow the revelation from God after they had accepted it and also bore witness that the messenger was true and clear signs had come to them. So those people who had accepted that they are following a messenger and had seen clear signs and then chosen to not follow them then God does not guide them. These are people unjust because they bear witness and have seen clear signs but still choose not to follow the revelation from God.
So the above applies to the prophet Mohammed and his followers who had borne witness that Mohammed was indeed a messenger from God and that they had seen clear signs from God. It applies to the people of Moses who bore witness that he indeed was a messenger from God and they had seen clear signs from God. The people of Moses are most likely the only people who had seen numerous clear signs from God. For example the 9 signs in Egypt (plagues, water turning into blood, etc.), the parting of sea, the raising of the mountain, raising of the dead person, etc, etc.
If we understand that being a muslim is all about taking the resolution / life-choice (Arabic deen) that I would be submissive to my senses of right and wrong and live in harmony with the universe ? then it becomes clear that messengers and scriptures do not play an essential role in this resolution ? they only play a supporting role.
I think prophets and messengers play 2 roles. One is to bring guidance (which includes laws) and warnings to those on earth and the other is to bring revelation from God to let people know about God, ie his attributes, to bring new knowledge and for provinding support to the believers. When they bring guidance and warnings they are playing a very important role. This guidance and warning is to steer people away from Hell. Hell is a very very serious matter. God does not leave it up to people to follow their innate, God gifted sense of right and wrong. This is not enough. From this we are unable to derive laws and learn how to pray and worship God the way he wants us to. The messengers were sent to make it clear what laws we are to follow and how to worship God. We can't do this on our own no matter how good a people we are.
And what is the verdict for the Hindus, Budhdhist, Followers of Confucius and traditional Chinese / Japanese religion, Taoism, Deists, Agnostics and so on? The mercy and compassion of Allah is only for the followers of Abrahamic faith?
The "Hindus, Budhdhist, Followers of Confucius and traditional Chinese / Japanese religion, Taoism, Deists, Agnostics and so on" are clearly not muslims if they are not following a Book from God. The mercy and compassion of God extends to all on earth regardless of whether they believe in God or not, or whether they do good or evil. God says it is up to him to guide those he wants to guide. It is not up to the believers/muslims to decide. We don't know how many of the pagans/atheists will go to Hell just as we don't know how many of the bad muslim/believers will be going to Hell. No one is safe from the Hellfire. It is not upto believers in God to judge between the pagans/atheists, we leave that to God. Our goal is to just to all people and to be kind and caring so that we can build up our good deeds and purify our souls.
The refutation of your assumption that to know will of God we need to have been told it - is already built into in your argument above. Your argument is our inherent sense alone does not suffice to keep us from doing bad. So the additional information must be a necessity. I would say, even those who are ?told? to do good frequently misunderstand the message and continue doing bad anyway. So the message the messengers bring to us are nothing but reminder.
The additional information is a necessity in order to be classed as a muslim. I think you are getting confused into thinking that only muslims will go to Heaven. This is not the case.
- Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
For me verse 262 clearly says that "any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve". So any who believe in God and Judgment day and work righteousness will be OK.
This is very problematic understanding. This gives rise to conclusions which are morally not acceptable. For example, if children are not born muslim, do you say a child born in a ?non-muslim? family, who dies before his senses are developed ? say at the age of 5 ? is a ?non-Muslim? and his ?deen? will never be acceptable to Allah (385)?
Here you are getting confused with the doctrine "only muslims will go to Heaven". So a child who dies before the age of 6 or even older will still go to Heaven if God wills. It is God who knows us best and he will ensure justice is done to everyone. There is no need for us to worry if people don't become guided. Our job is to simply practice our religion and pray the other believers and our loved ones. We leave the guiding up to God.
I shall leave it up to this point for you to take in and ponder the above. You have made some other points which I will address once you have read the above.
Many thanks. Apologies for any typos.
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Salam Ted.
I think it is time to wrap up this discussion which is draining much from both our time but not yielding proportionate results. Let?s first define the various levels of faith that we are discussing
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People who do not believe in / accept divine books, and DO NOT accept their obligation to act based on their inherent sense of right and wrong, and due to rejection of accountability for their action they fail to act righteously. ? Let?s call this group ?Group O?.
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People who do not believe in / accept divine books, but accept their obligation to act based on their inherent sense of right and wrong, and out of their sense of accountability for their action they act righteously. Let?s call this group ?Group X?.
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People who supposedly believe in / accept divine books, but DO NOT accept their obligation to act based on their inherent sense of right and wrong, and due to rejection of accountability for their action they fail to act righteously. ? Let?s call this group ?Group Y?.
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People who DO believe in / accept divine books (at least one of them), and accept their obligation to act based on their inherent sense of right and wrong, and out of their sense of accountability for their action they act righteously AS WELL AS they ?worship / pray? to God alone. Let?s call this group ?Group Z?.
Now let?s compare our conclusions for the ?fate? of each of these groups
Group O Both You and I agree this group is destined to the suffering of hellfire.
Group X You believe Allah ?may? forgive them and give them rewards, we do not know. I believe Allah has promised them reward and security (verse 262).
Group Y Both You and I agree this group is destined to Hell.
Group Z Both You and I agree this group (irrespective of which messenger / book they are following) are destined to the rewards from their Master.
So, after examining the above it appears that our difference in theological understanding is really very little. So there is no real reason to press on debating.
Now, let?s examine how we name each group
Group O Both of us name them kafir and zalim.
Group X You seem not to name them at all. I call them ?muslim?. Those who are rejecting messengers and holy books can be identified as ?sabian (rejectors)?, but by virtue of their sincere submission to God gifted senses of right and wrong, they too are muslims.
Group Y Do, you call them Muslim? I don?t. Per my book, they are munafiq as well as kafir. (I am hoping you?d agree).
Group Z You call them ?muslim?. For me yes of course they are ?muslim? because they have met the minimum requirement ? but they are striving to be more than muslim, they are striving to be abrar (pious). For definition of piety (al-birr) see 2177.
Thus, it shows that you and I differ significantly in terms of our use of various Quranic terms.
Thus our discussion is not so much of a theological debate, it has boiled down to the usage of specific Arabic terms. That?s a difference I am actually happy to live with for the time being.
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It would help if you could also describe your understanding of the term "muslim" and "islam". As I explained before, muslim is a term applied to a being or beings who submit to the will of God by listening to his will or following his commands from a book and doing it for the sake of obeying God. This does not apply if those beings are acting according to their natural ability to do good, their God gifted nature of doing good, since they are not knowingly doing it for God.
? ?listening to his will? meaning ?listening to Allah?s will?? How? How does one decide whether Qur?an speak?s Allah?s will or Gita or Bible or all of them ? UNLESS one filters the message of books against the ?true? benchmark of Allah?s will which is one?s own conscience?
? you insist on ?knowingly doing it for God?? then goodness for the goodness?s sake has no value? Or perhaps goodness for the goodness?s sake is the best approach to obey God because ?goodness? is the will of God?
SO ON THE CONTRARY My understanding of muslim is it is a term applied to a being or beings who submit to the will of God by listening to his God gifted conscience and Intellect and doing it for the sake of our gratitude and obligation to the One who gave us the gift of life (which some people also term as ?goodness for gooness?s sake? ? that?s a mere matter of speech).
Given the above, I am providing you my last bunch of rebuttal of your definition of ?muslim?. If you still do not find my arguments convincing, I?d just have to agree to disagree and move on.
- You did not accept my argument that 385 makes ?islam? as the minimum standard acceptable to God. Let?s read the verse one more time, shall we?
385 And whoever seeks a ?deen? (ا other than peace/submission (ِ then never will (it) be accepted from him and in the hereafter he will be among the losers.
(My personal translation, cross checking recommended.)
You like to read this statement ?in the context?. I feel ?reading in the context? is a lame excuse for this verse. By choosing generic words like ?whoever? and ?never?, the author of Qur?an has clearly indicated this as a generic and universal statement. Now trying to limit the universal scope of this statement, ignoring the language of Qur?an, is equivalent of saying ?hear not to listen ( ).?
Verse 383 then says do these liars seek a religion other than what God has revealed when all creatures in heaven and earth have willingly or unwillingly. So these people of the Book who lie and create a false religion do they seek a religion other than what God has revealed.
Do this so called ?all creatures? follow what God has revealed in Qur?an or holy books through others, or do they follow their inherent sense / laws built into them by God? If you are in the illusion that there are messenger birds among all birds and messenger mountains among all mountains who preach to other birds and mountains, then I give up. But if you understand and appreciate that following their ?internal? God gifted senses / nature is enough for all other creatures to be muslim ? then it would be illogical for humans to have to follow and ?external? source to be deserving to be called by the same term. And it would have been a very inappropriate analogy for God to put forth. No, God does not put forth inappropriate analogies. RATHER, it is inappropriate to carry out pre-conceived ideas about the meaning of the term ?islam? and then try to fit that meaning in the verse. Rather we should extract the meaning of the word from the usage in Qur?an itself. Which implies just like all other creatures humans should accept ?islam? as deen by respectfully submitting to their God gifted nature.
Look at 384 once more ?
384 Say, ?We put faith in Allah and what is sent down on us and what was sent down on Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes and what was given to Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Master. We do not differentiate among any of them and we are submissive (َ to Him.
(My personal translation, cross checking recommended.)
Does it really say we are muslim because we are obeying a God gifted book or following a messengers, or does it mean to say we are muslim because we know and follow the common teaching brought by all messengers? And what the common teaching can be? Follow the messenger and the book? Or be a righteous person? Although the second may be a direct result of the first, which one in essence can be called the ?common teaching? ?
Without any further clarification on how to recognize a true messenger and an authentic devine book, can "follow the messenger and the book" be considered a "common teaching"?
- Let me bring you a new question. Take a look at the below verse
2132 And Abraham recommended his sons by it, as well (did) Jacob ?O my sons - indeed Allah has chosen the ?deen? (َ for you, then don?t you die except while you are submissive (َ.?
(My personal translation, cross checking recommended.)
When Abraham and Jacob were asking their children not to die except while being ?muslim? did they mean
a) A deity named Allah somewhere out there has communicated to Abraham and asked him to be His worshiper, since you are in the same family, you must not die before you worship that deity and submit to that deity by acting as that deity commanded you through Abraham.
OR did they mean
b) Abraham was inspired to put his faith in the Master of Universe who created each one of us with our sacred senses of right and wrong. It is logically and ethically incorrect (and thereby against human nature) to worship any other deity or follow any other dogma blindly - so like every righteous human being, like every creature in the universe ? submit to the Master of the Universe by following your God-gifted senses of right and wrong and live a life of peaceful coexistence with all His creations. And make sure you do not die before you attain this state.
If you are still arguing they meant to say ?a? ? then I have to be doubtful whether you really understood the difference between Allah and a deity (tagoot). But if you agree they meant to say ?b? ? then perhaps you should rethink your definition of the term ?muslim??
With this I feel I have produced enough Qur?anic argument to display why the term ?muslim? cannot be considered to mandatorily imply to follow a messenger or a book. You keep on insisting - to be ?muslim? one must recognize a messenger and accept a holy book ? but till now have not produced any Qur?anic proof to support your claim.
In your next post I?d expect to see a clear verse that implies to be a ?muslim? one must follow a book/messenger.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
ArmanP.S. I know ?resolution? is not a perfect translation for ?deen?, I use this term more as a placeholder ? for lack of any other better choice. If you prefer a different English term I don?t mind. But ?God?s religion? sounds like an extremely poor choice. God has no religion, religions (millat) ? like millat-i-Ibrahim - are paths chosen by men to seek God.
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Armanaziz,
Thanks for taking the time to respond. I would like to continue debating the term "muslim" as I feel it's both interesting and important. As you have quite rightly asked I need to provide examples from the Quran. While I collect my thoughts again I would recommend you take a look at the following links
http//quransmessage.com/articles/muslim%20mumin%20FM3.htm
http//quransmessage.com/articles/term%20muslim%20hijacked%20FM3.htmThey are both interesting and do a better job of explaining the terms. Thanks.
This topic is not one to "fall out" over. I feel it's increasing my understanding further the more it is challenged. I hope the same applies to you.
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Armanaziz,
Please also take a look at verse 53 where God is saying he has chosen Islam as a religion for the followers of the prophet Mohammed. The verse contains laws which need to be followed by the believers. A person left to use their own God gifted sense of right and wrong would never be able to know that God has forbidden blood, the flesh of swine and anything on "which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah".
53 Forbidden to you (for food) are dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah; that which hath been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by being gored to death; that which hath been (partly) eaten by a wild animal; unless ye are able to slaughter it (in due form); that which is sacrificed on stone (altars); (forbidden) also is the division (of meat) by raffling with arrows that is impiety. This day have those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion yet fear them not but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, Allah is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
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Salam Ted
I have no intension falling out of the discussion as long as it is productive. I?d like to cut-off only if the discussion becomes circular
Let?s compare our definitions of the term ?muslim? with that of brother JAI at quranmessage.com
You muslim is a term applied to a being or beings who submit to the will of God by listening to his will or following his commands from a book and doing it for the sake of obeying God.
I muslim is a term applied to a being or beings who submit to the will of God by listening to his God gifted conscience and Intellect and doing it for the sake of our gratitude and obligation to the One who gave us the gift of life.
JAI 'Muslim' is a term for anyone who submits or surrenders their will to the One true God of the Universe with obedience. This is irrespective of whether or not they have belief in the veracity of the Quran or its messenger.
Leaving up to you to reconcile amongst the 3 definitions above.
Please also take a look at verse 53 where God is saying he has chosen Islam as a religion for the followers of the prophet Mohammed. The verse contains laws which need to be followed by the believers. A person left to use their own God gifted sense of right and wrong would never be able to know that God has forbidden blood, the flesh of swine and anything on "which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah".
This is an interesting point worth discussing. First of all, let me clarify, if we take this verse to mean that ?Islam? is the name of a ?Religion? which was perfected with Qur?an on the day of revelation of this verse ? then that understanding challenges/negates the point that we all seemed to agree earlier ? that ? ?Islam? is not only a religion for the followers of Muhammad (pbuh).
But if we take the generic understanding of term ?islam? that we discussed for earlier verses like 2132, 383-85 and then read the verse we will get a more ?consistent? understanding.
Before going into more details, let me quickly rectify an error in the translation of the key section of the verse as you proposed
This day have I perfected your religion deen for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen been satisfied (ُ with Islam as your religion deen for you.?
Note, unlike 385, this verse (53) does not apply generic wording ? rather by using the term ?Today/this day? it makes it very much context dependent.
The verse says this day I am perfecting/fulfilling for you your deen ? implies the people may also have been on the deen before but there were certain imperfections in the way they understood or practiced it ? so with this verse and the verses up until this in Qur?an, God is removing those imperfections, and now that the imperfections are removed, ?islam / submission? becomes satisfactory as a deen (Life?s Resolution/Life-System).
So, my understanding goes like this ? a moralist deist who does not follow any scripture may still be muslim by submitting to his conscience and intellect with due sincerity ? but in absence of a reliable guidance there may be imperfections in his understanding.
For example, he may sincerely believe it is ?fair and equitable? to give sons and daughters equal claim on inheritance. But if he had access to a guidance he would have understood that a society which gives the males more ?economic? responsibility in family maintenance and fair means to execute those greater responsibility is indeed more likely to be ?fair and equitable? to the females who have a greater ?biological? responsibility in family bearing.
Another example he may sincerely believe it is more ethical to allow adult humans "freedom of choice" over whether he should take the pleasure in intoxicants, but if he had relied on real guidance he would have understood that discouraging all form of intoxicants altogether has greater benefit to society and thereby is closer to our conscience.
And by providing such necessary guidance (like these ones and many others), Qur?an perfects/fulfils the deen (Life?s Resolution/Life-System), and makes the ?islam? as practiced by the followers of Qur?an more satisfactory to Allah.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
muslim is a term applied to a being or beings who submit to the will of God by listening to his God gifted conscience and Intellect and doing it for the sake of our gratitude and obligation to the One who gave us the gift of life.
I can see what you are thinking. I just need to explain the proper way for you to understand I think.
I think you may be confused with the meaning of the word "submit" and how it should apply. When someone submits it means they yield to another authority. I don't think it's right to say you submit to your conscience and intellect since that is your own, its not another authority.
The pagans believe(d) that they are doing the right thing. They love the false gods. They really believe in them. Some will cry, fall prostrate, feel overwhelmed, feel blessed, etc.
If you ask them are they doing the right think they will say "of course". So when a pagan submits himself to a false god should not his God gifted conscience and intellect tell him he is doing wrong? Or do you think it does and he ignores it?
I think the pagans truly love their false gods. Even if they believe in God they may say that the god they worship is only to get them closer to the supreme God. So something is wrong here.
So what I am saying is that this God gifted conscience seems to allow pagans to worship other gods without feeling bad like you would do when you lie or steal.
A 5 year old child does not know the concept of submitting. A child will do what it has been designed to do. Doing something you are designed to do is not the same as submitting yourself to God. Same goes for adults. We are designed to want a easy life with lots of happiness and do things as we please. However those who submit to the will of God are required to go down the hard narrow path, to suffer if need be, to say no to certain things, to fast, to give without expecting anything in return, to be patient in times of calamity and distress. These are not things we are naturally inclined to do but we do it because God has taught us.
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Ted,
It says in 53 that those are not sanctified (goodly) rather than forbidden.
The reason? It says "Anema" in the beginning of the passage which equals something like "it is not" and haraam means sanctified/goodly.
Haraam means that something is sanctified and thus why the word is used in "al-masjed al-haram, even if the phrase does not refer to some house in the deserts of Arabia. That is a Pagan idea.
It is like a doctor saying "you should not eat this or that" and not a dogmatic law. All commandments are a spiritual guidance.
Salaam
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Ted,
It says in 53 that those are not sanctified (goodly) rather than forbidden.
The reason? It says "Anema" in the beginning of the passage which equals something like "it is not" and haraam means sanctified/goodly.
Haraam means that something is sanctified and thus why the word is used in "al-masjed al-haram, even if the phrase does not refer to some house in the deserts of Arabia. That is a Pagan idea.
It is like a doctor saying "you should not eat this or that" and not a dogmatic law. All commandments are a spiritual guidance.
Salaam
That may be so according to your version of the Quran and in your reality. But I take the Quran for what it is. God has made it simple. I'll take the simple meaning and try my best to live by it.
I have read some of your posts and I strongly feel that you have big misunderstandings. It doesn't fit in with the most peoples understandings of the Quran. I feel you are looking for things which as simply not there, making things more complicated than they need to be.
The message is simply, believe in God and work righteousness. Just obey God according to what he says in the Quran and you'll be fine.
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How one submit to Him alone as per my understanding of Quran,
By acknowledging that everything happens out of his will, there by reducing one's ego.
He is one who decides finally and so taking his role is a strict no. Not Thinking he has different yardstick for different people, He guides whomsoever He wills.
Following and respecting his signs of Goodness, thereby not ignoring Him and not doing idol worshiping or praising objects above its worth.
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You should do the will of the Creator synchronously rather than separate from the Creator. It is a misconception that Allah must be treated separately like in Paganism.
You personally should cease to exist alone and instead merge your mind with the consciousness which is Allah. You must acknowledge that you do not really exist but there is only Allah in existence, so if you like to persist you need to "go under the umbrella", so to say allegorically.
Salaam
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Ted,
The Creator made it simple yes and it is, but it does not help if you follow lies. I take Quran for what it says.
Does it not ring a bell for you when masjed haram uses the same word which you also used for forbidden? Haram means sanctified/approved.
And no God does not want you to believe but you must realize.
You may have read many of my posts but what you read is the real interpretation.
If one is wise they would instead ponder upon what I say to you and other people.
Ponder upon hara(a)m. Sanctified or forbidden? Can you not see the inconsistency and logical fallacy?
literally means "Good Foundation Thereof". What do you think it comprehensively means? Goodly, sanctified or approved!
Salaam
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Haraam by the way can also refer to that which is unknown referring to His nature, that none can understand or grasp, there by, its of high value, its a symbol of God. and by the way the other masjid is the Al Aqsa, which refers to the end or it represents the heaven.
This is my understanding.