Is there a single Muslim on this whole website?
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Sorry. I do not share that understanding. Arabic words do not have multiple completely different meanings.
Salaam
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I agree i know nothing about Arabic grammar or etymology, but i know this from another language root, that something unattainable considered to be of great respect, its a common psychological aspect of humans.
I think the pyramids(haram) do were called so, due to its tall and unattainable nature.
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Salaam amin,
I suppose it is rather that it is due to their grandiose nature. Haram marks exemplary or approved but also that it is goodly for something to be done.
I think in the case of the pyramids it was for Pagan rituals that harem was used in conjunction. They were holy/sacred in their eyes.
But it is a mistake in the sectarian "Islam" to use that as "forbidden". It is because when it is supposed to signify forbidden the text says 'annema' (ا first which is supposed to say "it is not", i.e. it is not approved/goodly to etc.
By the way, this is deemed controversial by most and it is part of my realization project.
Salaam
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Salam Ted.
It is really very amusing to me that the arguments that I should give you to support my standpoint ? you bring the same arguments and try to convince me the other way. Let?s look carefully at what you are saying
I think you may be confused with the meaning of the word "submit" and how it should apply. When someone submits it means they yield to another authority. I don't think it's right to say you submit to your conscience and intellect since that is your own, its not another authority.
The pagans believe(d) that they are doing the right thing. They love the false gods. They really believe in them. Some will cry, fall prostrate, feel overwhelmed, feel blessed, etc.
You don?t think it's right to say you submit to your conscience and intellect since that is your own, it is not another authority. Then the Pagans ARE submitting to another authority. If they do not listen to their God-gifted conscience and intellect and they choose to submit to an external authority out of fear / belief / tradition ? how can you say a Pagan is doing wrong? An ISIS kuffar also lives in the illusion that he is diligently worshipping a deity named Allah which wants him to establish the rule of that deity on earth. On what basis do you say their ?another authority? is not the correct ?authority? and your/mine is the correct one?
We all need to understand that God/Allah is not ?another authority?. God is very much within each of us, closer than our jugular veins. Every time we are taking a moral decision ? say, should we give this beggar some money or should we walk away ? He is there inside us closely observing what decisions we are making and how and why we are making those.
Say you feel pity for the beggar and give him some money. What is this pity? It is nothing but a recognition of the commonness between your ownself and the beggar ? a strange sense of commonness that is not saying ?look Ted someday you can be like this begger? ? rather it is saying ?look Ted, this beggar is a human being like you. You could have been born as this beggar and begging on this street today?. Thus this pity / compassion is in fact a subconscious recognition of the common origin of your own self and the beggar ? the common origin which apparently arbitrarily (or out of His mercy/wisdom) have led you to become ?Ted? and let the beggar be what he is. That common origin is Allah. So doing good for the sake of goodness (pity / compassion) IS INDEED doing good seeking the face of Allah.
On the otherhand say, I am selling a watch to a customer. I know this watch is a fake brand watch and thereby of inferior quality. But I choose to pretend to the customer that it is a genuine brand and rip him off. When I would be doing this my God-gifted sense within me would tell me - look Arman you could have been the buyer, then would it be fair for you sell this watch at this price to you. Wouldn't the common origin of you and him demand that you treat him fairly? I can choose to repress that sense and distance "me" from the rest of the universe and tell myself - no serving "me" is my only goal, I have no obligation to anyone else. That would be ungratefulness (kufr) to the common origin of the universe. Then I'd not be submitting to the common origin of all of us.
One does not recognize Allah until one is able to recognize Allah?s will within oneself. Abiding by this internal authority is the best, no - rather the only, way to submit to Allah ? the only way to be a muslim. On the other hand the person who chooses to repress their faith in the internal authority is a kafir.
Then when we come across an ?another authority? ? be it the Qur?an, Bible, Gita, the Book of Mormon it becomes our responsibility to reconcile between our internal authority and the external authority. ONLY IF the external authority seems to be perfectly in tune with our internal authority one should accept the external authority as binding. And by obeying the external authority fully validated by ones internal authority the muslim strives to become pious (abrar) ? he is not submitting to ?another authority?, he is submitting to his same ?internal authority? in a path approved by his same ?internal authority?.
3193 ?Our Master, indeed we have heard a caller calling, towards faith, saying, ?Put faith in your Master.? So we put faith. Our Master, then forgive our misdeeds from us and suppress our faults for us and let us pass away along with the pious.?
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
On the contrary, when a kafir "blindly" accepts the external authority ignoring his internal authority he is only following a tagoot ? even if that tagoot is based on the holiest of the scriptures. That is the case of Nazis, KKK, crusaders, Zionist oppressors, ISIS, Boko Haram and so on.
So think again ? which one is the primary obligation ? following the internal authority or another authority? If it is the another authority, what makes the devoted pagans and ISIS wrong? Aren?t they diligently and sincerely submitting to an external authority?
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
The proper understanding would be "Who you are worshipping" not "What".
Scimi
Please explain further if you can? I used the term "What" deliberately to indicate that what is being referred to is "what the correct concept is" not "who the correct concept is". Why the distinction? Well because anyone can say "Allah" but if they have the wrong idea of "What" that is they are referring to, then their worship is misdirected to a false concept.
So anyone can say they worship "Allah" and that "Allah is a man in the sky" so the "What" is where they are going wrong, while they still may retain the proper name or even call such "God" while they do not understand "What" God is or should refer to logically based on necessity.
Do you understand? Thank you for noticing that and bringing it up!
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Please explain further if you can? I used the term "What" deliberately to indicate that what is being referred to is "what the correct concept is" not "who the correct concept is". Why the distinction? Well because anyone can say "Allah" but if they have the wrong idea of "What" that is they are referring to, then their worship is misdirected to a false concept.
So anyone can say they worship "Allah" and that "Allah is a man in the sky" so the "What" is where they are going wrong, while they still may retain the proper name or even call such "God" while they do not understand "What" God is or should refer to logically based on necessity.
Do you understand? Thank you for noticing that and bringing it up!
Can be either.
What - people can worship our desires, money, objects.
Who - people can worship prophets, angels, satan, other people, etc. -
Armanaziz,
My apologies for the late reply. It's at times like this I wish I knew the Quran off by heart, I'd then be able quote verses from the Quran more fluently.
You don?t think it's right to say you submit to your conscience and intellect since that is your own, it is not another authority. Then the Pagans ARE submitting to another authority. If they do not listen to their God-gifted conscience and intellect and they choose to submit to an external authority out of fear / belief / tradition ? how can you say a Pagan is doing wrong? An ISIS kuffar also lives in the illusion that he is diligently worshipping a deity named Allah which wants him to establish the rule of that deity on earth. On what basis do you say their ?another authority? is not the correct ?authority? and your/mine is the correct one?
I think there is some confusion as to what is "God-gifted conscience and intellect" and "Submitting to the will of God". I'll try to clarify.
"God-gifted conscience and intellect" is something all humans have been created with. They are designed this way.
826 O man! What has seduced thee from thy Lord Most Beneficent?-
827 Him Who created thee. Fashioned thee in due proportion, and gave thee a just bias;We have been created with a just bias. We have been designed/made to do good in the world. Therefore whether you are pagan, atheist, believer or whatever you will recognise what it is to be fair and just. When injustice is done to you will feel it and know it. When you see a fellow human in danger you will want to save him. If he is hungry you will want to share it with him ,etc., etc. If a nation does not exercise good, just behaviour then it is a nation which will not prosper regardless of whether the nation are believers or non believers. We have also been designed to think about why we are here, why we exist, what is our purpose, etc. Regardless of whether we are believers or not. It has been scientifically proven that children naturally believe in God.
"Submitting to the will of God" is exactly that. Note it is submitting to the true God and not a made up one. So if a pagan submits himself to a other gods or even one made up god then he is not a muslim. A muslim is a term which is applied to people who submit to the true God. Submitting to another authority does not make you a muslim.
Also to clarify again, submitting to your God gifted conscence is not the same as being a muslim. It is simply inclining to what you have been designed to do.To reiterate again I am not saying that only muslims will go to heaven. I have never said that. So those people who have not believed in the true God for whatever genuine reason could be that the muslims around them were corrupt or they never really understood what they were being preached, or the message never reached them) may simply get to heaven because God wills it. It is up to God to guide who he wills and it will be a matter between them and God.
What I am saying regarding the term muslim is that it is a term which applies to a certain group of people who fit a specific criteria. This criteria involves obeying the commands that God has revealed through a book or other form of communication. So Abraham became a muslim when he heard the commands of God an obeyed him. He was not muslim when he stopped believing in the idols that his community worshipped, he was simply a believer. Abraham became muslim when he began to obey the commands of God.
The followers of the prophet Mohammed were not muslims in the beginning. They became muslims when they began to obey the commands of God. So when God commanded them to fight and they fought then they were muslim. Those who believed but declined to fight were not muslims even though they believed in the revelation being brought to the prophet and they believed in the one true God.
So again, being a believer in one God and doing good works does not make you a muslim (and it does not stop you from getting to heaven). Believing in one God, doing good works AND obeying the commands from a book of God or other form of revelation does make you muslim.
Take a look at the story of Jonah. He was a muslim, a Jew, he believed in God. He obeyed Gods commands upto a point. When he disobeyed God he was no longer a muslim but he was still a believer. If Jonah had not repented and prayed to God he would have been given the penalty of hell. This is quite an important point to note. When God gives a command it can't be disobeyed.
? how can you say a Pagan is doing wrong? An ISIS kuffar also lives in the illusion that he is diligently worshipping a deity named Allah which wants him to establish the rule of that deity on earth. On what basis do you say their ?another authority? is not the correct ?authority? and your/mine is the correct one?
I can say a pagan is doing wrong because I can claim he is not following a revelation from God. A pagan should be able to show me a book which has been revealed from God. If he shows me a book and claims that it is from God then I should be able to examine that book and see if it is consistent and fits in with reality and logic. However even though I believe a pagan is doing wrong I think it would be very rude of me to say arrogantly. I should first of all lead by example and then maybe ask him to consider my book. And likewise I should read his book and respect it.
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Salam Ted.
"God-gifted conscience and intellect" is something all humans have been created with. They are designed this way.
We have been created with a just bias. We have been designed/made to do good in the world. Therefore whether you are pagan, atheist, believer or whatever you will recognise what it is to be fair and just. When injustice is done to you will feel it and know it. When you see a fellow human in danger you will want to save him. If he is hungry you will want to share it with him ,etc., etc. If a nation does not exercise good, just behaviour then it is a nation which will not prosper regardless of whether the nation are believers or non believers. We have also been designed to think about why we are here, why we exist, what is our purpose, etc. Regardless of whether we are believers or not. It has been scientifically proven that children naturally believe in God.
"Submitting to the will of God" is exactly that. Note it is submitting to the true God and not a made up one.
Up to this point I am with you ? you have nicely explained what "God-gifted conscience and intellect" means and what "Submitting to the will of God" means. I am so glad that we have a common understanding on this points ? it makes my explanation so much more easier.
The only minor point I?d like to correct would be ?It has been scientifically proven that children naturally believe in accept God?. I am not sure about the scientific experiment that you mentioned (I?d love to see more details on that) but my understanding is children (and even most adults) naturally accept there is a superior authority who is the common authority over everything that exists ? and if you do bad things the superior authority will somehow make sure the bad comes back to you. I understand that these two acceptances are termed as ?Amana billahi (faith in Allah) and Amana bil Yawmil Akhir (faith in the last day) in Qur'an. Such faith is inherent in humans. However, Believing is shaped by what the children learn from their environment. Some learn to believe that superior authority to be One and Only God (Abrahamic belief), some learn to believe Him as a panentheist Brahman existing in everything (Hindu belief), some learn to believe in a non-personal spirit of the universe that returns good karma with good and bad with bad (Budhdhist belief), and some simply acknowledge that we have not attained the level of knowledge to believe in any of this, rather we should only accept the morality as a naturally binding obligation upon us (agonistic belief). The acceptance (faith/Iman) is natural, the belief (Janna) is learned.
So if a pagan submits himself to a other gods or even one made up god then he is not a muslim. A muslim is a term which is applied to people who submit to the true God. Submitting to another authority does not make you a muslim.
Also to clarify again, submitting to your God gifted conscence is not the same as being a muslim. It is simply inclining to what you have been designed to do.Now that we have agreed what submit to will of God means, we need to investigate what ?submit to other god? mean. Say, if I am a bad person ? I lie, cheat and steal and even kill and rape, but I diligently perform my salaat rituals. Am I submitting to God? I am sure you?d agree ? of course not. My ?salaat ritual / prayer? is only utterance of my mouth and my random body movement ? the submission MUST be reflected in my action in life. I may be worshiping God, but I am submitting to devil (ego, pride, envy, greed etc.). Taking this same understanding from the other side those who ?worship? other gods ? but in their action in life lives the life of a righteous person ? should be considered as people who submit to God but are incorrect / ignorant in their conceptualization of God and their rituals. They may be worshiping tagoot but they are still submitting to God. Only when they overrule their God gifted conscience and intellect in favor of this ?other god? (e.g. a pagan priest making a human sacrifice) can we say they are not submitting to God, rather submitting to a tagoot.
To reiterate again I am not saying that only muslims will go to heaven. I have never said that. So those people who have not believed in the true God for whatever genuine reason could be that the muslims around them were corrupt or they never really understood what they were being preached, or the message never reached them) may simply get to heaven because God wills it. It is up to God to guide who he wills and it will be a matter between them and God.
What I am saying regarding the term muslim is that it is a term which applies to a certain group of people who fit a specific criteria. This criteria involves obeying the commands that God has revealed through a book or other form of communication. So Abraham became a muslim when he heard the commands of God an obeyed him. He was not muslim when he stopped believing in the idols that his community worshipped, he was simply a believer. Abraham became muslim when he began to obey the commands of God.
?So again, being a believer in one God and doing good works does not make you a muslim (and it does not stop you from getting to heaven). Believing in one God, doing good works AND obeying the commands from a book of God or other form of revelation does make you muslim.
Yes, I know that you define the term ?muslim? to imply a certain group of people who fit a specific criteria. This criteria involves obeying the commands that God has revealed through a book or other form of communication.
And please reconfirm ? this ?other form of communication/revelation? cannot be a realization coming out of one?s own sincere soul searching ? it has to be an ?external source??
If that is the case, I disagree with your definition and I am convinced from my study of Qur?an that Qur?an does not use the term ?muslim? to mean what you imply above. I have given you many verses and explained in my earlier posts why ?obeying the commands that God has revealed through a book? cannot be a necessary condition for being a muslim (per Qur?an). You keep on insisting to ?hear not to listen?.
The followers of the prophet Mohammed were not muslims in the beginning. They became muslims when they began to obey the commands of God. So when God commanded them to fight and they fought then they were muslim. Those who believed but declined to fight were not muslims even though they believed in the revelation being brought to the prophet and they believed in the one true God.
This is your wishful thinking. Please bring proof from Qur?an. RATHER, those who believed but declined to fight were still faithful (mu?min) but of a lower rank
495 The ones sitting (inactive) among the faithful, except the disabled ones, are not level with the ones striving in Allah?s path with their wealth and their souls. Allah has graced the ones striving with their wealth and their souls above the ones sitting (inactive) - in rank. And to everyone Allah promises the nicest. And Allah has graced the ones striving (hard) with their wealth and their souls above the ones sitting (inactive) - with a great reward.
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
You can claim they were mumin but not muslim ? but that?s your claim only. Rather Qur?an says the only deen acceptable to Allah is islam. Earlier you seemed to be confusing between abrar (pious) and muslim (submissive). Now, you are confusing mujahideen (striver) with muslim (submissive).
So Abraham became a muslim when he heard the commands of God an obeyed him. He was not muslim when he stopped believing in the idols that his community worshipped, he was simply a believer. Abraham became muslim when he began to obey the commands of God.
This is once again an erroneous understanding. When Abraham became aware of God/Allah to be the supreme authority and only authority worth our worship ? he became muttaqui (conscious). But he did not become ?muslim? overnight. One does not become muslim at a point in time through acceptance of a book or external communication. Books and communications are guides, they are not the destination. Being muslim (submissive) is a continuous journey which one undertakes throughout his life ? that is why Abraham and Ismael prayed to be muslims
2128 ?Our Master! Also (please) assign (both of) us as submissive (ِ to You and from our offspring a community submissive to You and show us our rites , and relent to us ? Indeed You are You - The Relenting, the Merciful.?
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
Still in doubt that Abraham and Ismael were trying to be muslim by following some book? Consider the following verses
365 O! Fraternity of the book - why do you debate concerning Abraham while the Torah and the Gospel were not sent down but from after him? So, why do you not understand?
366 Here you are ? the ones who (even) debated about which you had knowledge; then why do you debate about which you have no knowledge? And Allah knows, while you do not know.
367 Abraham did not happen to be a yahudi (i.e. repenter) or a nasara (i.e. helper), but rather, he happened to be a precise muslim (i.e. submissive) ? and he did not happen to be among the assigners of partners (to Allah).
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
Don?t you see that the above verse implies following a specific book / external communication is not necessary for being a muslim like Abraham? If your reply is - Abraham followed his own book which was an earlier version of Torah and the Gospel and Qur?an ? than doesn?t that make the above Quranic claim nonsensical? Pay attention brother ? the quoted verses (365-67) clearly imply that following a specific book or any book is NOT A NECESSARY condition for being a muslim.
Thus, when Qur?an says Abraham happened to be a precise muslim it is a certification of his life?s resolution (deen) to submit to his God gifted conscience and intellect that he successfully observed throughout his life ? NOT his alliance/acceptance of any book or external source.
If you still want to wishfully think that the proclamation of followership of Qur?an or the followership of divine books by the people of the book would somehow elevate us to a preferred ?muslim? status by which we would gain some sort of preferential treatment in afterlife, then I hope the following verses put the last nails in the coffin of such wishful thinking
4123 By neither your wishful thinking, nor the wishful thinking of the fraternity of the book ? whoever acts in wickedness will be repaid for it and will neither find any patron nor any helper from beside Allah.
4124 And whoever acts righteously ? among the male or the female ? and is a faithful, then they are the ones to enter the garden and they will not be wronged by crumbs.
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
I have developed my understanding of the Quranic term ?muslim? through my personal examination and careful pondering over the verses of Qur?an. But I do realize this understanding is not very common. Absolute majority of the people who call themselves ?Muslims? consider only the followers of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to be Muslims. You may be a bit different from them but still your definition of ?muslim? is way apart from how I see the term to be used in Qur?an. If you have further ?Quranic? evidence to support your understanding of the term ?muslim?, you are welcome to share. Otherwise you can repeat 1 million times that ?to be a muslim you must follow a book of God? ? I don?t care.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Muslim is a person who fully relies on/trusts God. It is the word that best correlates to the inaccurate "believer" term rather than saying you are a submitter. It does not say you are realized about God.
Amen is an immersion into the proper affinity. So you are not necessarily a Mumin even if you consider yourself a Muslim. It takes more than faith to be a Mumin but you must also show your affinity.
Salaam
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Salam Arman & Ted,
I think You can use a better term than the meaningless word "pagan",
better word would be polytheists but even then if you and me claim to worship One God with different names like God, Allah, Siva or Bramman etc and fail to understand that both are indeed worshiping the same God, then we can also be called as a polytheist?
also one need to define whats worshiping? Just praising some Goodness can be called as worshiping? Say our mother or the land that gives us benefits? or saluting the teacher who teaches us?
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The good thing about my recent advancement concerning the Arabic word 'islam' is that it allows translations of the words we formerly had problems with.
When you greet someone with 'salaam' you simply wish them to be safe and sound. Not difficult at all once you realize the meaning of the root .
When used in conjunction with Rabb for example; aslama l'Rabb it means put your trust in the Sustainer to be safe and sound in God. It is a reliance. The phrase could literally be translated Be faithful to Rabb.
But as the word implied in above paragraph, i.e. safe and sound it implies that you have to show it through your works. Be safe and sound to the Rabb. This kind of behavior about doing the right things is what is faith and no wonder why that particular word was used.
If you have affinity by iman then you are truly Muslim.
Salaam
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Salaam amin,
I rather consider Pagan to be a person who is materialistic and thus also see God(s) as concrete images. This definition is also supported by dictionaries. Even someone who treats Allah like a too concrete entity and characteristically needs to please their god(s) through meaningless rituals and rites are Pagan rather than a spiritual affinity.
Polytheism is a stand-alone definition while Paganism can be monotheism but with a materialistic approach. Even being a sectarian and with very materialistic faith elements are Pagan.
Salaam
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Salam Arman & Ted,
I think You can use a better term than the meaningless word "pagan",
better word would be polytheists but even then if you and me claim to worship One God with different names like God, Allah, Siva or Bramman etc and fail to understand that both are indeed worshiping the same God, then we can also be called as a polytheist?
also one need to define whats worshiping? Just praising some Goodness can be called as worshiping? Say our mother or the land that gives us benefits? or saluting the teacher who teaches us?
Salam amin.
As usual very good points. By pagan I was refering to people who worship multiple deities.
You rightly pointed out the term "worship" can mean different things. A simple expression of respect can be called worship. Such worship of one's parents, one's country, one's favorite sport team, one's messengers or even that of lifeless idols may be tolerable and should not be considered shirk or pagan.
But if worship signifies one's unconditional submission to another OR being slave to (Arabic ibadat) another, then such worship is to be for God Alone. We can only be slave to Allah. And we be slave to Allah by upholding our sense of right and wrong given by Him. There is absolutely nothing in the universe - no parent, no angel, no messenger, no book - which can be or should be an excuse for not living upto our God-gifted conscience and intellect.
If I "worship" my mother in such a manner that signifies even if my mother asks me to kill someone I'll blindly go and kill him, or believe that I can commit crime and my crime would be excuseable as "obedience to my mother" - I am no longer submitting to my God gifted senses and hence have fallen out of islam. If I "worship" my messenger in such a manner that if someone insults him I'll blindly go and kill him, or believe that I can commit crime and then intercession of my messenger would erase my crime - I am no longer submitting to my God gifted senses and hence have fallen out of islam. If I "worship" lifeless idols in such a manner that I can make human sacrifice for my idol, or believe that I can commit crime and then praying to the idol would erase my crime - I am no longer submitting to my God gifted senses and hence have fallen out of islam.
But if my respect for my mother, for my messenger OR for the lifeless idol only inspires me to uphold my God-gifted sense of right and wrong ? do good and refrain from bad, then whatever words or ritual expressions I use to express my respect that is harmless utterance and physical expression. At worst it may give away my ignorance, but it shouldn?t stop me from being muslim. Ignorance is not a crime, but willful ignorance is.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
I am not sure about the scientific experiment that you mentioned (I?d love to see more details on that)
http//www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1211511/Why-born-believe-God-Its-wired-brain-says-psychologist.html
And please reconfirm ? this ?other form of communication/revelation? cannot be a realization coming out of one?s own sincere soul searching ? it has to be an ?external source??
Yes, according to my definition/understanding, you can't be a muslim by "a realization coming out of one?s own sincere soul searching". It has to be an external source.
Now that we have agreed what submit to will of God means, we need to investigate what ?submit to other god? mean. Say, if I am a bad person ? I lie, cheat and steal and even kill and rape, but I diligently perform my salaat rituals. Am I submitting to God? I am sure you?d agree ? of course not. My ?salaat ritual / prayer? is only utterance of my mouth and my random body movement ? the submission MUST be reflected in my action in life. I may be worshiping God, but I am submitting to devil (ego, pride, envy, greed etc.). Taking this same understanding from the other side those who ?worship? other gods ? but in their action in life lives the life of a righteous person ? should be considered as people who submit to God but are incorrect / ignorant in their conceptualization of God and their rituals. They may be worshiping tagoot but they are still submitting to God. Only when they overrule their God gifted conscience and intellect in favor of this ?other god? (e.g. a pagan priest making a human sacrifice) can we say they are not submitting to God, rather submitting to a tagoot.
If you are a bad person because you lie, cheat, murder, etc. then obviously you are not muslim. You have already gone against the will of God. Being a muslim is not simply the rituals such as salaat, fasting, pilgramage, etc. Even if you gave lots in charity and carried on fornicating without ever repenting or thinking that your charity and salaat will balance out the fornication then that's worse. It's worse because you are knowingly doing it rather than ignorantly. You'd be classed as a hypocrite. You would not be muslim not matter how many hajj, fasting, zakat you had given.
Salaat is prescribed by God. I think those muslims who say they are following the Quran and don't pray will be asked what prevented them from doing salaat. What the punishment, if any, will be I have no idea.
A person who is doing good deeds but carries one worshipping idols and joining partners with God but is doing it in ignorance - I don't know what will happen to them. A person who does it at the time of revelation for example at the time of the prophets such as Mohammed or Moses, or Noah, or Salih, etc. then I think it's Hell. They have no excuse since God's prophet is among them. For those nations that did not believe and turn away from shirk they were destroyed. However those who have never had a messenger/prophet directly tell them the revelation, I have no idea. It's up to God to guide us. Maybe God will forgive some and punish others.
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Ted,
They will not be asked about something which does not exist except as conjecture, if you speak of a ritual.
Keeping salateh means what kind of perception of life you have.
Salaam
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http//www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1211511/Why-born-believe-God-Its-wired-brain-says-psychologist.html
If you are a bad person because you lie, cheat, murder, etc. then obviously you are not muslim. You have already gone against the will of God. Being a muslim is not simply the rituals such as salaat, fasting, pilgramage, etc. Even if you gave lots in charity and carried on fornicating without ever repenting or thinking that your charity and salaat will balance out the fornication then that's worse. It's worse because you are knowingly doing it rather than ignorantly. You'd be classed as a hypocrite. You would not be muslim not matter how many hajj, fasting, zakat you had given.
Salaat is prescribed by God. I think those muslims who say they are following the Quran and don't pray will be asked what prevented them from doing salaat. What the punishment, if any, will be I have no idea.
A person who is doing good deeds but carries one worshipping idols and joining partners with God but is doing it in ignorance - I don't know what will happen to them. A person who does it at the time of revelation for example at the time of the prophets such as Mohammed or Moses, or Noah, or Salih, etc. then I think it's Hell. They have no excuse since God's prophet is among them. For those nations that did not believe and turn away from shirk they were destroyed. However those who have never had a messenger/prophet directly tell them the revelation, I have no idea. It's up to God to guide us. Maybe God will forgive some and punish others.
Salam Ted.
Lots of "I don't know"s! I appreciate your candor and humbleness. Perhaps we can study Qur?an together and ponder over it to come out of these ?I don?t know?s to "we hear and we obey"! Perhaps that would be closer to Taqwa (consciousness).
These are my humble views on the three points that you highlighted based on my personal understanding of Qur?an
- Salaat is prescribed by God. I think those muslims who say they are following the Quran and don't pray will be asked what prevented them from doing salaat. What the punishment, if any, will be I have no idea.
Establishing Salaat (Akimus Salat) goes far beyond performing a ritual. A person established salaat in his life by establishing the ?respect (raddhā? of our common origin and common sustainer - the Master of Universe ? in one?s lifestyle. Yes, Qur?an does endorse the periodic ritual as well (without giving specific details about the format)? as a continued legacy from our forefather Abraham... but that ritual is only a ceremonial expression of our respect which is useful and meaningful only if we can mean and connect with the words uttered during the ritual. (Unfortunately, an absolute majority of ?musallis? fail in this regard.) Qur?an does not specify any punishment for not performing the ritual ? the punishment for not performing the ritual is that the one not performing it will loose the protection that it offers against our negative tendencies and thereby become more vulnerable in deviating from the righteous path. Indeed Salat deters from barbaity, immorality and deplorable.
If you do not do your daily studies, that does not make you fail the exam automatically, but not doing regular studies, or doing show-off studies without proper attention will make your probability of failing the exam very high. The ?study? is prescribed (Farad if you like to call it that) for you as a preparation ? the study itself is not the end goal (exam). I hope you get the analogy of salaat with the study and our righteousness of action as the exam. And don't forget students of different school follow different curriculum
- A person who is doing good deeds but carries on worshipping idols and joining partners with God but is doing it in ignorance - I don't know what will happen to them.
Joining partner with God (shirk) in terms of whose direction you follow in your life ? do you follow you God-gifted conscience or overrule it in favor of someone / something which you have assigned as partner to God ? may be a book / a scholar / a religious leader or a deity ? that is the kind of shirk that Qur?an condemns, that is the kind of shirk that will never be forgiven
(if not repented in time). How can God forgive someone who commits barbarity in the name of God!!!But if someone is following God?s will in his life anyway ? living a righteous life, punishing that someone solely based on mere utterance of word or what they ?worship? in the privacy of their home or temple would be injustice. And indeed Allah is not unjust to His slaves.
- However those who have never had a messenger/prophet directly tell them the revelation, I have no idea.
Every nations had messengers who called their people towards goodness and forbade from the deplorable. But in spite of that if the guidance really didn?t reach a group ? Then they are the ones, perhaps Allah will pardon them and Allah happens to be Pardoning, Forgiving.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Salam MOF, Arman,
Clarify if my understanding is right about two important concepts in Islam.
As I understand, The word shirk is something like equating existing things to God, a process of separating him, limiting His capacity.
Each one of us see his signs or sense Him differently, some in His love, some in his ultimate power, nature of destruction, in stability or unlimited wealth, as a creator and some like me see him as universal Goodness ie. one who is just. etc.
we have different names as per our language and above ideas.
The point here is to take Every signs of him truly represent Only one, not of many and any one who thinks otherwise is doing shirk.The term muslim just means one who submits, so to whom one submits is important as like the totality of the submission,
here submission to Him/Allah alone brings in the freedom rather than restriction.
Everyone submits to things like the govt's or king's law, our parents, our imams, our cultural restrictions, our books etc...
they are all good and important,
but then as "muslims" one has the exception and freedom in the name of his submission to One God?
As Arman says here that is finality of our God gifted consciousness of what is right. -
If you do not do your daily studies, that does not make you fail the exam automatically, but not doing regular studies, or doing show-off studies without proper attention will make your probability of failing the exam very high. The ?study? is prescribed (Farad if you like to call it that) for you as a preparation ? the study itself is not the end goal (exam). I hope you get the analogy of salaat with the study and our righteousness of action as the exam. And don't forget students of different school follow different curriculum
I think this is another topic of discussion which I'd like to take up with MoF and yourself. For now I'll concentrate on defining the term "muslim" as it's difficult for me to have more than one thread of thought.
Joining partner with God (shirk) in terms of whose direction you follow in your life ? do you follow you God-gifted conscience or overrule it in favor of someone / something which you have assigned as partner to God ? may be a book / a scholar / a religious leader or a deity ? that is the kind of shirk that Qur?an condemns, that is the kind of shirk that will never be forgiven
(if not repented in time). How can God forgive someone who commits barbarity in the name of God!!!But if someone is following God?s will in his life anyway ? living a righteous life, punishing that someone solely based on mere utterance of word or what they ?worship? in the privacy of their home or temple would be injustice. And indeed Allah is not unjust to His slaves.
The problem is that pagans and Christians do believe they are following their God-gifted conscience. Ask any pagan or Christian. So how do you get such people to recognise what is the "true" God-gifted conscience. I doubt pagans and Christians feel any guilt/remorse/injustice when they join partners with God or claim Jesus is the son of God. In fact I think it's the opposite. They rejoice, they are happy, feel fulfilled, etc.
You need something more than just saying to these people to follow their God-gifted conscience. It needs to be something concrete. This is where I believe revelation comes in. God is sending guidance on the earth so people can correct themselves. As believers in one God we can use the arguments in the Quran to argue (in a nice way) with the pagans and Christians.
At the end of the day those who are living righteous lives but still worshipping idols or saying Jesus is the son of God can never be classed as muslims as they are not worshipping God alone as he has commanded. They simply don't meet the definition.
As you have quite rightly asked for I need to quote verses from the Quran to justify my definition of muslim. I shall be doing that shortly, just trying to get the wording right