Question for the people with knowledge
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Peace The Sardar.
My struggles with Qoran happened before I joined this forum, between 2000 and 2009.
Most of the contradictions turned out to be of the following
My misconceptions.
My biases
My poor knowledge of the message.
Relying on other interpretations/translations.
My lack of study of Qoran and patience to do it by myself. My lack of looking at the context of the verses of Qoran.
My misconceptions about GOD,GOD s will and free will.
My poor general knowledge ,history knowledge and big ego.
My lack of trust in GOD. The most important ingredient.
...And many more selfish and agenda driven reasons including to sincerely and honestly find out what this book is really saying .i.e to be fair and look at this book deep and give it time and effort to really find out the truth.
It is turning out to be a life long task,pleasurable and difficult at the same time. I am glad I am on this journey.
In fact I am realising this is the mother of priorities for me in this life.
Thanks for asking brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace The Sardar.
My struggles with Qoran happened before I joined this forum, between 2000 and 2009.
Most of the contradictions turned out to be of the following
My misconceptions.
My biases
My poor knowledge of the message.
Relying on other interpretations/translations.
My lack of study of Qoran and patience to do it by myself. My lack of looking at the context of the verses of Qoran.
My misconceptions about GOD,GOD s will and free will.
My poor general knowledge ,history knowledge and big ego.
My lack of trust in GOD. The most important ingredient.
...And many more selfish and agenda driven reasons including to sincerely and honestly find out what this book is really saying .i.e to be fair and look at this book deep and give it time and effort to really find out the truth.
It is turning out to be a life long task,pleasurable and difficult at the same time. I am glad I am on this journey.
In fact I am realising this is the mother of priorities for me in this life.
Thanks for asking brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.If you wish you could tell your struggles in Private messages. maybe i could learn from it.
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Brother The Sardar.
You may not know how lucky you are when you have Qoran.
Believe me, It does not leave anything out for you to learn from.
My advice always to those who want to learn/ know
GOD and His words. The best teacher.
Of course I am happy to help on the side-line.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
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God who get angry = Frustrated God, not in control of everything
Things can disobey God = God is not all powerful, God is not the ultimate planner and controller of all universes..Is definitely a contradiction by common sense...
But hey.. remember rule#2 above... you MUST NOT said it as such... just hush hush keep it to yourselves..
Otherwise God will get angry and torture you for all eternity...............
Your quote was perfectly correct .this was the gist of ,my post here
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610056.msg413706#msg413706
if your are not obeying then your disobedience is also from GOD .moreover this is also the gist of those verses(verse 7.16) i made out in that post .your question highlights the the limitation of human mind .it is some like who created GOD or can GOD make a stone which he himself cannot lift it .even human imagination fails here .
Me,you,Ju5,GL,sardar baih all are here this is the reality .GOD can make us perish or make dust or something which is nothing but still we will be in his domain -
seeking an interpretation. And no one presently knows its interpretation except Allah
yet qur'anists pretend to know. Because or
- the verse is clear and we should accept it as such
-the verse is unclear and no one knows its interpretation but Allah
qur'anists still like to interpret verses, thus disobeying Allah
Whoever open the Quran will get guidance depending upon his mental state and capability
Yes, everyone makes the qur'an what it wants to be, especially on this forum. That is why there will always be islamic terrorists.
@ hawk99
synonyms compliant, acquiescent, tractable, amenable;
Siin-Jiim-Dal = lo
Mr hawk, the root you quoted means prostrate/whatever in the qur'an, not accomplish an order/ command, see
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=sjd#(2344)
it is used as sajada, sujd, masjid, sjidadjective obedient
complying or willing to comply with orders or requests; submissive to another's will.
"she was totally obedient to him"The word obedient is not used in 16.49, but "they are commanded" (yu'marna). I said obedient because its says malaika obey by doing what they are commanded. Shows how much attention your are paying to the thread. Or how honest you are. Or both.
Uh-oh here you are starting to slip up,
come on now Ju5 you are losing steam.
Maybe it's time for you to switch subjects!
-X
@good logic
1- 1315 and 1649 are both talking about all the creations.
1649 says moving creatures and malaika/angels do what they are commanded, are fearful and not arrogant. The things and their shadows only prostrate and are humble. It does not speak about all creation. And even if it did (and it does not), it wouldn't nullify that malaika are obedient and fearful.
2- 1315 and 1649 are both about "sujud" to GOD . Unlike 234 which is about "sujud" to Adam.
Not only about "sujud" to god. (about malaika and moving creatures)"They fear their Lord above them, and they do what they are commanded".
Note you seem to believe it speaks about all creation. But Allah already said the things and their shadows prostrate. He saying it a second time(abut prostration) which would be redundant.. The following sentence says And to Allah prostrates whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth of creatures, and the angels , and they are not arrogant.
It clearly shows the subject is now -moving creatures and malaika", and not shadows or all creation like your are pretending.3-1315 and 1649 are both talking about GOD s will and purpose not about the creations obedience or disobedience.
See above. It speaks of living creatures and malaika being fearful and doing what they are commanded. Not of all creation And to Allah prostrates whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth of creatures, and the angels , and they are not arrogant.
REMINDER No one answered about cutting the hands of thieves. I'll bring this back on the table once we are done with the malaika story, prepare the homework.
- the verse is clear and we should accept it as such
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REMINDER No one answered about cutting the hands of thieves. I'll bring this back on the table once we are done with the malaika story, prepare the homework.
Actually there is two forum posts on cutting off thieves hands by sister Reel and brother Uq (a moderator)
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608291.msg384220#msg384220
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608169.msg382178#msg382178 -
Peace Ju5.
What living creatures are you talking about? Do you mean humans and Jinns as well?
See how you cannot single out Malaika in verse 1649. In your own words ,you are saying the subjects are the living creatures and Malaika.Therefore ,1649 and 234 are not connected and are two different subjects. Try as you may, you will not be able to connect them.
But ,you have already committed and you are too proud to correct yourself? Fine.I suggest you do your homework on this one first before you move on. Your choice.
GOD bless you.
Peace -
Peace All.
I am going to make a summary to explain why 1315 and 1649 are talking about the same subject and 234 is talking about a completely different subject.
First the connection of 1315 and 1649.
The context of 1315 are
Starting from
132
God is the One who raised the heavens without pillars that you can see, then assumed all authority. He committed the sun and the moon, each running (in its orbit) for a predetermined period. HE CONTROLS ALL THINGS, and explains the revelations, that you may attain certainty about meeting your Lord.133
He is the One who constructed the earth and placed on it mountains and rivers. And from the different kinds of fruits, He made them into pairs - males and females. The night overtakes the day. These are solid proofs for people who think.... NOTE THE SENTENCE HE CONTROLS ALL THINGS IN 132
Then we move towards GOD s plan and purpose ,everything follows GOD s plan and does not deviate including living creatures and Malaika
1314,1314.1315.
Then moves on to One GOD and no Idolworship 1316.
Subject of 1315 ONE GOD WHO CONTROLS EVERYTHING. Everything submits to His plan and purpose.
The context of 1649
Start form 1635. Those who commit idolworship...
1636...One GOD do not commit idolworship...
1640 GOD controls everything,His commnd if He wants something to say to it BE and IT IS.
1648 and 1649...Everything in heaven and earth including all living creatures and Malaika submit to his plan and purpose.
Subject os 1649 One GOD WHO CONTROLS EVERYTHING.Everything submits to His plan and purpose.This is a completely different subject to 234.which is about Adam,Iblees and the Malaika. Specific creations.
GOD s overall plan includes our free will and the Jinns. Our obedience or other living creatures obedience or disobedience is part of the free will. Nothing to do with what 1649 is talking about.One cannot mix the context of 234 and 1649,then claim there is a contradiction. Two completely different subjects.
GOD bless.
Peace. -
Mr hawk, the root you quoted means prostrate/whatever in the qur'an, not accomplish an order/ command, see
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=sjd#(2344)
it is used as sajada, sujd, masjid, sjid
The word obedient is not used in 16.49, but "they are commanded" (yu'marna). I said obedient because its says malaika obey by doing what they are commanded. Shows how much attention your are paying to the thread. Or how honest you are. Or both.-X
nope I see, as brother good logic has stated and from your understanding
of the above, I understand why you see contradictions. brickwall! Maybe this website can be helpful
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htmpeace
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seeking an interpretation. And no one presently knows its interpretation except Allah
yet qur'anists pretend to know. Because or
- the verse is clear and we should accept it as such
-the verse is unclear and no one knows its interpretation but Allah
Jus5 see how deeply you read the replies. Did you notice "presently" in my reply? The Quran does not say that no one will be able to know the meanings rather it says that if you do not know meanings presently then in coming times with increase in knowledge you will know the meanings.
How I translated "presently" is based on the difference between usage of "ma" and "la" with present and past tenses.
- the verse is clear and we should accept it as such
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nope I see, as brother good logic has stated and from your understanding
of the above, I understand why you see contradictions. brickwall! Maybe this website can be helpful
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htmpeace
The website Corpus Quran uses Lane's Lexicon and this what lexicons says about Siin-Jiim-Dal ( د I recommend reading the entire 2 pages.
http//ejtaal.net/aa/img/ll/13/ll-1354.png
http//ejtaal.net/aa/img/ll/13/ll-1355.png
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@novice anyone can claim people from the past didn't understand but now we do, it is something a lot of crooks do, you re still swimming in conjecture and have no proofs for your qur'anists interpretations, they are as solid as dry grass, not only there is no authority in islam, but with qur'anists, there not even a consensus on meanings of verses, that is why the qur'an is not a guide, but as you say
Whoever open the Quran will get guidance depending upon his mental state and capability
(nice from you admitting that the qur'an is not clear, you are getting there)the qur'an is only a
mirror
that turns a believer into arrogance and forgetting logic just to believe into what he wants to believe, and then show arrogance by thinking he is a wise one... a guide for humanity wouldn't let anyone make his own thing one is peaceful, the others cuts the hands, the others crucify all unbelievers... it is not clear, violent, contradictory, and the ones (qur'anists) wanting to make it look like a peaceful message make it so malleable (to save it from violence ands contradiction) that anyone can make it mean what he wants to... how can peace be attained, you are all in doubt and unsure of your interpretations, you have so much different ones between your believers, and you will never be able to prove through logic that your interpretation is the right one...because you make the qur'an vague. If it wasn't vague we would see it for what is is really, and you woudl discard it.
Do you think the qur'an invented morals? Do you think the qur'an owns the idea of God? Don't you think people observed the world and learnt from experience before the qur'an? "Be nice to others and do what you say" wooow never heard that before.. that worth waging war and giving spoils to our lovely messengers... Islam may have did good, it doesnt mean we have to believe its divine@hawk99 find a single instance of the sujud verb like in 234 in the qur'an that means obeying/accomplising a command/an order, and i ll believe you. hintyou can't
@The sardar thanks for showing hawk99 that even others form of the root don't mean doing what you've been ordered/obeying
@good logic the last defender of the malaika story ! can you prevail?
Peace Ju5.
What living creatures are you talking about? Do you mean humans and Jinns as well?
See how you cannot single out Malaika in verse 1649. In your own words ,you are saying the subjects are the living creatures and Malaika.No, i don't single out malaika. So you proceed to say that it doesn't speak about malaika? Do you live on mars?
The flowers and the tables are blue. = Both the flowers and the tables are blue. Is this case closed?Therefore ,1649 and 234 are not connected and are two different subjects. Try as you may, you will not be able to connect them.
Iblis is a malaka. So the verses are connected.
But ,you have already committed and you are too proud to correct yourself? Fine.
We all commit the sin of claiming victory too early from time to time. But please. Let's not make fools of ourselves and focus on the truth.
answer to your following post coming if gods will
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@The sardar thanks for showing hawk99 that even others form of the root don't mean doing what you've been ordered/obeying
I wasn't supporting you, i was showing S-J-D root word in lane's lexicon which Hawk99 showed from PRL happens to use as one of their classical arabic lexicons for research of the Quran.
https//i.imgur.com/HAZ7rTw.png
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You can confirm it yourself in http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
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@hawk99 find a single instance of the sujud verb like in 234 in the qur'an that means obeying/accomplising a command/an order, and i ll believe you. hintyou can't
He is not here but i checked in Quranix.org (http//quranix.org/2#34) and i looked at arabic word fasajadoo () and says that it is fa result particle sajadu verb root sjd third person masculine plural perfect verb w personal pronoun third person masculine plural
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@good logic
Peace All.
I am going to make a summary to explain why 1315 and 1649 are talking about the same subject and 234 is talking about a completely different subject.
First the connection of 1315 and 1649.qur'anist methodology in action, i speak about a contradiction between 234 and 1649, and he quotes 1315... maybe Allah isn't precise enough with its words.
The context of 1315 are
Starting from
132
God is the One who raised the heavens without pillars that you can see, then assumed all authority. He committed the sun and the moon, each running (in its orbit) for a predetermined period. HE CONTROLS ALL THINGS, and explains the revelations, that you may attain certainty about meeting your Lord.Why the capslock? are you shoving down our brain a subtle message? I guess qur'anists have to add words to the verses so they make sense
133
He is the One who constructed the earth and placed on it mountains and rivers. And from the different kinds of fruits, He made them into pairs - males and females. The night overtakes the day. These are solid proofs for people who think.... NOTE THE SENTENCE HE CONTROLS ALL THINGS IN 132
i hope you will write again that he controls all things in capital letters, because i am not certain if i understood... though this is not 1315... are you going to quote the whole qur'an? are two verses not enough for you?
Then we move towards GOD s plan and purpose ,everything follows GOD s plan and does not deviate including living creatures and Malaika
1314,1314.1315.
Why do you need to explain the verses? we lack eyes?Then moves on to One GOD and no Idolworship 1316.
Subject of 1315 ONE GOD WHO CONTROLS EVERYTHING. Everything submits to His plan and purpose.i am pasting the 1315 verse. Please remember GOD CONTROLS EVERYTHING !
1315 And to Allah prostrates whoever is within the heavens and the earth, willingly or by compulsion, and their shadows in the mornings and the afternoons.
The context of 1649
Start form 1635. Those who commit idolworship...
1636...One GOD do not commit idolworship...offtopic
1640 GOD controls everything,His commnd if He wants something to say to it BE and IT IS.
Indeed, Our word to a thing when We intend it is but that We say to it, "Be," and it is.
1648 and 1649...Everything in heaven and earth including all living creatures and Malaika submit to his plan and purpose.
Actually the verses say1649 And to Allah prostrates whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth of creatures, and the angels , and they are not arrogant.
1650 They fear their Lord above them, and they do what they are commanded.
Subject os 1649 One GOD WHO CONTROLS EVERYTHING.Everything submits to His plan and purpose.
ill ib'lsa . There is no submitting to a plan. In 1649/50 the malaika do what they are commanded are fearful and are not arrogant. The only reason you add words to the words of Allah is because you seek your own interpretation. The qur'an is clear it says malaika do what they are commanded.
This is a completely different subject to 234.which is about Adam,Iblees and the Malaika. Specific creations.
GOD s overall plan includes our free will and the Jinns. Our obedience or other living creatures obedience or disobedience is part of the free will. Nothing to do with what 1649 is talking about.One cannot mix the context of 234 and 1649,then claim there is a contradiction. Two completely different subjects.
GOD bless.
Peace.nope
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@good logic
Why the capslock? are you shoving down our brain a subtle message? D I guess qur'anists have to add words to the verses so they make sense
i hope you will write again that he controls all things in capital letters, because i am not certain if i understood... though this is not 1315... are you going to quote the whole qur'an? are two verses not enough for you?
The reason he used casplock because he was highlighting the point he was trying to make.
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peace ju5.
You do not like 1315. It has ended your contradiction. I guess it is showing you that you did not understand 1649 properly and you were too hasty to shout "contradiction".
Your posts are repeating the same mistake.
Try again if you can find other verses that contradict 234 because 1649 is not doing it for you.
All you could say at the end of your last post was "nope".
So I guess it is a contradiction because you say so.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
@novice anyone can claim people from the past didn't understand but now we do, it is something a lot of crooks do, you re still swimming in conjecture and have no proofs for your qur'anists interpretations, they are as solid as dry grass, not only there is no authority in islam, but with qur'anists, there not even a consensus on meanings of verses, that is why the qur'an is not a guide, but as you say (nice from you admitting that the qur'an is not clear, you are getting there)
Quran is perfectly clear to those who seek it with a sincere heart. Let me say it again
Quran does not disappoint those who have sickness in their hearts and let them go astray.
37
.......those who are deeply rooted in knowledge say "We believe in it; the whole is from our Sustainer - albeit none takes this to heart save those who are endowed with insight.
If you believe that crow is white, it does not make crow white.
Do you think the qur'an invented morals? Do you think the qur'an owns the idea of God? Don't you think people observed the world and learnt from experience before the qur'an? "Be nice to others and do what you say" wooow never heard that before.. that worth waging war and giving spoils to our lovely messengers... Islam may have did good, it doesnt mean we have to believe its divine
319-20
( (319 Remember that the System of Life approved by God is only Islam (Submission). Those who were given the scripture dissented from it through mutual rivalry and envy, after knowledge had come to them. If anyone rejects God's revelations, then God is Swift in reckoning.
320 If they argue with you (O Messenger), tell them, ?I have submitted to God; I and those who follow me.? Say to the People of the Scripture, and to those who have no Scripture, ?Would you submit (to God)?? If they submit, then they have been guided but if they turn away, then your duty is only to convey the message. God is Seer of His servants.
So Ju5 following the practice of our messenger I can only convey the message. Believing it or not is your choice.
Quran did not invent morals rather God gave human beings the whole system of life from the beginning and Quran is just a reminder of that system.
2218
find a single instance of the sujud verb like in 234 in the qur'an that means obeying/accomplising a command/an order, and i ll believe you. hintyou can't
2218 Do you not see that to God submits everyone in the heavens and everyone on earth? And the sun, and the moon, and the stars, and the mountains, and the trees - and all kinds of living beings that crawl on their belly, walk on two or four feet, or fly - and many of the human beings submit to Him. But there are numerous human beings who incur retribution. Whoever disgraces himself according to God?s law, for him, there is none that can raise him to honor. God has control over all things and events and He does everything according to His laws.
Now please do not tell me that you see inanimate things doing prostration to God.
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Now please do not tell me that you see inanimate things doing prostration to God.
That would be odd to say the least.
