Question for the people with knowledge

The_Sardar

I feel like this thread is going bit too hectic brother Noon.

Noon_waalqalami

I feel like this thread is going bit too hectic brother Noon.

it's been hectic from the start brother.

Ju5 doesn't understand no choice in matter sjd to god (programmed/hardwired into all creation) nor can anyone be arrogant or not humble about this matter whereas sjd to adam or people acting arrogant or not humble in general -- it's their choice!

The_Sardar

it's been hectic from the start brother.

Ju5 doesn't understand no choice in matter sjd to god (programmed/hardwired into all creation) nor can anyone be arrogant or not humble about this matter whereas sjd to adam or people acting arrogant or not humble in general -- it's their choice!

Not exactly, it gone hectic somewhere before the middle. Correct me if i'm wrong though.

good_logic

Peace Ju5.
Qoran clearly differentiates between Jinns and Malaika. Qoran clearly says Iblees is of the Jinn and has a role to play in this life. Iblees cannot be both Malaika and Jinn!(If he was a Malaika, according to you , then he is not one anymore). But you cannot accept that to hold on to the contradiction

I see your point now, your aim was to show us that this book is contradictory. You seem to be certain, Fine by me. You are entitled to your choices and decisions,
However, I feel that you also will never find out what Qoran is really saying because you are happy and satisfied with your current knowledge and understanding. It is also fine by me.
As for Qoran,it does not need defending it gives folks the choice to take it or leave it. Your choice brother.
Mine is to stick at it and keep studying it.
GOD bless you
Peace

The_Sardar

Peace Ju5.
Qoran clearly differentiates between Jinns and Malaika. Qoran clearly says Iblees is of the Jinn and has a role to play in this life. Iblees cannot be both Malaika and Jinn!(If he was a Malaika, according to you , then he is not one anymore). But you cannot accept that to hold on to the contradiction

I see your point now, your aim was to show us that this book is contradictory. You seem to be certain, Fine by me. You are entitled to your choices and decisions,
However, I feel that you also will never find out what Qoran is really saying because you are happy and satisfied with your current knowledge and understanding. It is also fine by me.
As for Qoran,it does not need defending it gives folks the choice to take it or leave it. Your choice brother.
Mine is to stick at it and keep studying it.
GOD bless you
Peace

Same here dear brother. Try what i can to search for the divine truth.

Ju5

it's been hectic from the start brother.

Ju5 doesn't understand no choice in matter sjd to god (programmed/hardwired into all creation) nor can anyone be arrogant or not humble about this matter whereas sjd to adam or people acting arrogant or not humble in general -- it's their choice!

By your rules, Iblis isn't arrogant or rebellious, because he didn't refuse to "sjd" in front of god but only in front of Adam. Iblis, the fearful, humble and obedient malaka !

Except Iblees; he was arrogant and became among the disbelievers.

said, "Descend from Paradise, for it is not for you to be arrogant therein. So get out; indeed, you are of the debased.

And when We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam," and they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was of the jinn and departed from the command of his Lord.

The_Sardar

By your rules, Iblis isn't arrogant or rebellious, because he didn't refuse to "sjd" in front of god but only in front of Adam. Iblis, the fearful, humble and obedient malaka !

Except Iblees; he was arrogant and became among the disbelievers.

said, "Descend from Paradise, for it is not for you to be arrogant therein. So get out; indeed, you are of the debased.

And when We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam," and they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was of the jinn and departed from the command of his Lord.

What verses are these and what translation is it?

Ju5

Peace Ju5.
Qoran clearly differentiates between Jinns and Malaika. Qoran clearly says Iblees is of the Jinn and has a role to play in this life. Iblees cannot be both Malaika and Jinn!(If he was a Malaika, according to you , then he is not one anymore)

I am not the one to state the Iblis was a malaka. I don't know anyone called Iblis. It is the qur'an in 234. Somehow you manage to make yourself believe that he wasn't a malaka, how, this i don't know.

Allah told them to sjd, they did except iblis.

What do you not understand? If you don't even believe your own qur'an there is a problem. If you want a book where iblis is not a malaka write your own book.

good_logic

Think about it Ju5,it is a you who is not accepting that Qoran is also saying that Iblees is of the Jinn now to stick to your contradiction.

If Iblees was a Malaika before the rebellion/disobedience, he is of the Jinn now according to Qoran, so no contradiction with 1649.

Insisting there is a contradiction by not looking at other verses as well is not going to make it one to those who ponder Qoran properly.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Ju5

I didn't say that iblis wasn't a "jinn". It is indeed written in the qur'an; I said iblis was a malaka. Because it is written in the qur'an. The fact that iblis is said to be a jinn in verses, doesn't cancel that he is a malaka in 234.
The fact that he may have turned, from a malaka, to a jinnn( which is an hypothesis as it isn't specified clearly, it just says that he is both in different verses) doesn't change the fact that he disobeyed AS a malaka. Because God asked the MALAIKA to sjd. What did Iblis disobey to? to prostrate/sjd. To who allah asked to prostrate? to malaika. Therefore he was a malaka and disobeyed. Why do i have to explain something which is evident?
Again, your argument si to say that since he became "demoted" from malaka to jinn, then his disobedience didn't count as disobedience as a malaka, but did count as disobedience while being a jinn.

The error in this reasoning is that, if your "fired from the malaika police " hypothesis is true, Iblis became a jinn BECAUSE he disobeyed as a malaka. Therefore a malaka/controller/angel disobeyed. You can turn this upside down but the qur'an is there, and everyone can see with its eyes what i am seeing simply by looking at 234. I am not WANTING to see a contradiction here; I am SEEING it. You don't see it because you twist around words and interpretations.
MAYBE he became "demoted", nothing is sure about this. What is sure is that he has been cast out BECAUSE of his disobedience as a malaka/controller/angel. He was a malaka, he was disobedient, he was arrogant. Contradiction.

The only way to get around this will be to have your own little personal hypothesis, reasonable or not(often not) but it will always stay as farfetched speculation. My interpretation on this verse is the most simple, basic and clear one. The one any one would understand by looking at the verses without trying to change things because of a false premise(ie the qur'an cannot contain errors).
You change words and interpretations because you believe BEFORE thinking objectively about those verses. Your belief causes you to twist things in order for the qur'an to stay without error. You would NOT do this with another book; This is a clear proof of orientation, bias/dishonesty, call it how you want.
The TRUTH is that if you show those two verses to ANYONE who doesn't believe yet in the qur'an, and therefore will not be biased, he will NOT start to say things like you
-he is not a malaka
-he became a jinn, so his disobdience didn't count
-he couldn't obey, therefore it doesn't count as disobedience
and others kinds of preposterous explanations.
Here is what he will say "there is a contradiction between those two verses". Even you would have answered this if you didn't believe. You have to admit it.

Ju5

And one could wonder, why don't you try to change the translation of words and interpretations for hadiths like you do for the qur'an? just a thought.

good_logic

Peace Ju5

I was saying to you even in your line of reasoning Iblees cannot be both a Jinn and Malaika.

My view is the 2 verses you claim are giving you a contradiction are not talking about the same subject. There is no connection between them.
1649 is talking about all GOD s creations-everything in heaven and earth as well- That everything follows a divine plan without deviation,

Two completely different subjects that are not connected whatsoever.
There is no connection between the two verses or contradiction.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

The_Sardar

My interpretation on this verse is the most simple, basic and clear one.

Your interpretation is basing on the translation you are using. Have you checked the original arabic text?

Ju5

Peace Ju5

I was saying to you even in your line of reasoning Iblees cannot be both a Jinn and Malaika.

My view is the 2 verses you claim are giving you a contradiction are not talking about the same subject. There is no connection between them.
1649 is talking about all GOD s creations-everything in heaven and earth as well- That everything follows a divine plan without deviation,

Two completely different subjects that are not connected whatsoever.
There is no connection between the two verses or contradiction.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Iblees cannot be both a Jinn and Malaika
Why not? because it would be a contradiction according to the qur'an? a part frrom that, what evidence do you have that you cannot be both jinn and malaka? you don't even know what these words mean. A jinn? being made from fire? malaka? some magical guy that accomplish missions for god? Once again= speculation.

My view is the 2 verses you claim are giving you a contradiction are not talking about the same subject. There is no connection between them.

both verses speak of malaika. So there is a connection. 1649 moving creatures and malaika are obedient, they prostrate/sujud whatever, they are fearful and do what they are commanded

234 a malaka disobeys and gets fired

The_Sardar

Why not? because it would be a contradiction according to the qur'an? a part frrom that, what evidence do you have that you cannot be both jinn and malaka? you don't even know what these words mean. A jinn? being made from fire? malaka? some magical guy that accomplish missions for god? Once again= speculation.

both verses speak of malaika. So there is a connection. 1649 moving creatures and malaika are obedient, they prostrate/sujud whatever, they are fearful and do what they are commanded

234 a malaka disobeys and gets fired

I have posted the root words of Jinn & Malaka

Here is the root word of Jinn

Jiim-Nun-Nun ( &#1606 (root of jinn) = veiled/concealed/covered/hid/protected (e.g. cloth, armour, grave, shield), invisible, become dark/posessed, darkness of night, bereft of reason, mad/insane/unsound in mind/intellect, confusedness.
Become thick/full-grown/blossom, herbage, garden.
Spiritual beings that conceal themselves from the senses (including angels), become weak and abject, greater part of mankind, devil/demon, people who are peerless having no match or equal, a being who is highly potent, sometimes refers to Kings because they are concealed from the common folk

janna vb. (1)
perf. act. 676
pcple. act. 1527, 5515, 5539, 5556, 5574
pcple. pass. 156, 2627, 3736, 4414, 5139, 5152, 5229, 549, 682, 6851, 8122

ajinnah n.m. (pl. of janin) 5332

jann n.m. 2710, 2831

jannah n.f. 225, 235, 282, 2111, 2214, 2221, 2265, 2266, 315, 3133, 3136, 3142, 3185, 3195, 3198, 413, 457, 4122, 4124, 512, 565, 572, 585, 5119, 699, 6141, 719, 722, 727, 740, 742, 743, 744, 746, 749, 750, 921, 972, 972, 989, 9100, 9111, 109, 1026, 1123, 11108, 134, 1323, 1335, 1423, 1545, 1631, 1632, 1791, 1831, 1832, 1833, 1835, 1839, 1840, 18107, 1960, 1961, 1963, 2076, 20117, 20121, 2214, 2223, 2256, 2319, 258, 2510, 2515, 2524, 2657, 2685, 2690, 26134, 26147, 2958, 318, 3219, 3415, 3416, 3416, 3533, 3626, 3634, 3655, 3743, 3850, 3973, 3974, 408, 4040, 4130, 427, 4222, 4370, 4372, 4425, 4452, 4614, 4616, 476, 4712, 4715, 485, 4817, 509, 5031, 5115, 5217, 5315, 5454, 5546, 5554, 5562, 5612, 5689, 5712, 5721, 5822, 5920, 5920, 6112, 6112, 649, 6511, 668, 6611, 6817, 6834, 6922, 7035, 7038, 7112, 7440, 7612, 7816, 7941, 8113, 8511, 8810, 8930, 988

jinn n.m. (coll) 6100, 6112, 6128, 6130, 738, 7179, 1788, 1850, 2717, 2739, 3412, 3414, 3441, 4125, 4129, 4618, 4629, 5156, 5533, 721, 725, 726

jinnah (1) n.f. 11119, 3213, 37158, 37158, 1146

jinnah (2) n.f. 7184, 2325, 2370, 348, 3446

junnah n.f. 5816, 632

Lane's Lexicon, Volume 2, page 98, 99, 100 ## http//ejtaal.net/aa/#q=JNN

And here is the root word of malak

Miim-Lam-Kaf ( &#1603 = to rule/command/reign, be capable, to control, power/authority, king, kingdom.

Also see root Lam-Alif-Kaf

malaka vb. (1)
perf. act. 43, 424, 425, 436, 1671, 236, 2431, 2433, 2458, 2461, 3028, 3350, 3352, 3355, 7030
impf. act. 517, 525, 541, 576, 7188, 1031, 1049, 1316, 1673, 1756, 17100, 1987, 2089, 253, 253, 2723, 2917, 3422, 3442, 3513, 3943, 4386, 468, 4811, 604, 7221, 7837, 8219
n.vb. (1) malk 2087
n.vb. (2) mulk 2102, 2107, 2247, 2247, 2247, 2248, 2251, 2258, 326, 326, 326, 3189, 453, 454, 517, 518, 540, 5120, 673, 7158, 9116, 12101, 17111, 20120, 2256, 2442, 252, 252, 2526, 3513, 3810, 3820, 3835, 396, 3944, 4016, 4029, 4249, 4351, 4385, 4527, 4814, 572, 575, 641, 671, 7620, 859
pcple. act. 14, 326, 3671
pcple. pass. 1675

malak n.m. 2102, 68, 68, 69, 650, 720, 1112, 1131, 1231, 1795, 257, 3211, 5326, 6917, 8922

malakut n.m. 675, 7185, 2388, 3683

malik n.m. (pl. muluk) 2246, 2247, 520, 1243, 1250, 1254, 1272, 1276, 1879, 20114, 23116, 2734, 5923, 621, 1142

malik n.m. 5455

malik n. prop. 4377

LL, V8, p 277 ## http//ejtaal.net/aa/#q=mlk

Red Lam-Alif-Kaf ( &#1603 = To send, to send a message, to send anyone towards.

malak n.m (pl. malaikah), see also malak (Miim-Lam-Kaf)

230, 231, 234, 298, 2161, 2177, 2210, 2248, 2285, 318, 339, 342, 345, 380, 387, 3124, 3125, 497, 4136, 4166, 4172, 693, 6111, 6158, 711, 89, 812, 850, 1313, 1323, 157, 158, 1528, 1530, 162, 1628, 1632, 1633, 1649, 1740, 1761, 1792, 1795, 1850, 20116, 21103, 2275, 2324, 2521, 2522, 2525, 3343, 3356, 3440, 351, 37150, 3871, 3873, 3975, 4114, 4130, 425, 4319, 4353, 4360, 4727, 5327, 664, 666, 704, 7431, 7838, 974 ## http//ejtaal.net/aa/#q=lak

The_Sardar

By the way if you are wondering where i got this from? Here is the link to the websites that contains the root words

http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

parvez_mushtaq

Request to all the contributors of this thread

this thread is almost like beating by the bush .we are revolving around the same argument .once again ju5 is not sleeping but he pretending as asleep.you cannot wake him .
JazakALLAHu kahiran

The_Sardar

I'm not sure brother Parvez but i feel this is getting really bad for everyone.

The_Sardar

Request to all the contributors of this thread

this thread is almost like beating by the bush .we are revolving around the same argument .once again ju5 is not sleeping but he pretending as asleep.you cannot wake him .
JazakALLAHu kahiran

I don't understand that. What does that mean?

good_logic

Peace Ju5.
No brother, just because the word Malaika is in both verses does not mean the verses are connected.
1649 says all the creatures and Malaika. So you are going to come back and say some of the creatures also do not obey and are arrogant, like some humans and Jinns?
1649 is about GOD s plan and purpose (As far as GOD is concerned,He has planned His creations to execute their lives without deviation including permitted free will) .Nothing to do with our choice or the Malaikas choice of obedience.
For example your body performs the functions given to it by the creator , your heart beats until the predetermined time for it to stop...etc
Everything is programmed according to GOD s will including giving you, humans, Jinns... this predetermined life span to choose and decide.

Can t you see that it is a completely different subject from a sujud to Adam?
How come then you are highlighting and isolating only the Malaika in 1649 when GOD is speaking about all the creation?
Or is it to satisfy your made up contradiction?
As you can see ,I have said everything I wanted to say and I hope it is clear.
Other than that ,we will be both wasting conversing in this thread since I will be repeating myself.
I hope you collect all the verses about sujud to Adam and sujud to the Creator and ponder them deeply and keep searching.
If you are sure of your way and understanding, then leave Qoran to whoever wants to waste their time and use your time elsewhere where you find benefits.
GOD bless you.
Peace.