Question for the people with knowledge
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Salam Parvez what do you think this conversation? To me it sadly went heated.
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Salam Parvez what do you think this conversation? To me it sadly went heated.
You Can?t Wake a Person Who Is Pretending to Be Asleep
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You Can?t Wake a Person Who Is Pretending to Be Asleep
Um.....what?
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kafir does not necessarily mean "disbeliever", it more correctly means concealer/ungrateful/rejecter
Why do you tell me this?
No, the evidence was given in the thread. Here is one verse
He/it (iblis) said, "so because You have allowed/caused me to stray...
Your made up theory is not that Allah sends astray. According to Allah he guides whom et wants and sends astray whom he wants. Your made up theory is that because Allah sent astray Iblis, Iblis' disobedience does'nt count. Allah guides and sends astray everyone. Yet everyone will account for their actions. Allah guides prophets, and these are rewarded. Allah sends astray some people, and they are condemned. Some people disbelieve or disobey, allah curses them. He tells them, you have done x / y, now you will suffer, if you had done v / w, you would have been saved. Does qur'an says we have free will? Allah says he guides and sends astray, so apparently no. But he tells us to take the good decisions, so appaerently yes. I'll let you dicuss this contradiction in another thread.
But in the end, the qur'an says we are responsible for our actions, and we get punished for it. Because we were hypocrites/infidels/etc, Allah sent us astray, he even put a devil that follow us everywhere. So how dare you say that Iblis did'nt disobey because he was forced to? It is the same for everyone. And Allah still tells us that some are obedient, and some are rebellious. Although he guided us or sent us astray.in this case. the saying of Iblis refers to the loss of his erstwhile position among the angels, the rendering adopted by me seems to be the most appropriate."
The fact that iblis is not anymore a malaka is not indicated in 234. Elsewhere in the qur'an does it says that he is a Jinn. But nowhere in the qur'an does it say he isn't a malaka anymore. And nowhere in the qur'an does it say you can't be malaka and a jinn at the same time. It just says malaka are obedient, and jinns will be judged.
The Quranic narrative on the origins of mankind and the initiation of this life/test is obviously for our (the intended recipients of Quran) benefit.
Irrelevant. 234 still states Iblis is a malaka and disobeyed. 1649 still states malaika are obedient/fearful/humble.
The word "jinn" does not necessarily mean the same thing everywhere.
Irrelevant.
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@Ju5,
The word "jinn" does not necessarily mean the same thing everywhere.
Irrelevant.
Why is it irrelevant?
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@good logic
1- There will be a lot of speculations/ differing views even among Qoranists and there is not one consistent /certain answer that we can give
Something we agree on.
1-Were the Jinns another creation before they were created Jinns?
I don't know.
Were we another creation before we were created Humans?
-I don't know.
Were the Angels another creation before they became Angels?
-I don't know.
Why was it necessary for the different classification of all these souls?(Angels,Jinns,humans...etc)
-I don't know.
What is the difference between these souls
Humans exist. Jinns and angels, i never saw any sign of their existence.
and why this universe and earth?
-I don't know.
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2- There is a good reason for the Malaika and Iblees to undergo that test of loyalty.Irrelevant to the contradiction.
3-
Nowhere in Qoran do we find a clear statement that Iblees was a Malaika. If you imply that 234 says that, then you cannot confirm it elsewhere in Qoran, however one can clearly confirm that he was not at the time of his rebellion . it clearly says Iblees was of the Jinns.I don't need several verses for the qur'an to claim something. One verse is sufficient. 234 is sufficient. 234 does'nt claim Iblis is a Jinn. 234 indeed claims Iblis is part of the malaika. Don't accuse me, i am just looking at the qur'an.
If nowhere it was indicated that Iblis was a Jinn, you would say that he is a malaka because 234 says so. But you don't admit it because it contradicts other verses. Since you believe that the qur'an is perfect you will look at verses to save the qur'an. I am ok with that as long as you stay honest and logic.
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If we cannot agree on giving you the same answer, it does not mean there is no answer. Also it does not mean your answer/what you concluded is the right answer. It just means you and us need more knowledge on this subject.If after 1400 years we still don't know, it is time to admit that it is not clear. If after 1400 years we don't know, then some people became disbelievers and ended in hell because they didn't believe in a book that had contradictions for which they had no explanations. When will Allah send us the code to translate the qur'an so we can finally solve the contradictions and believe?
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If nowhere it was indicated that Iblis was a Jinn, you would say that he is a malaka because 234 says so. But you don't admit it because it contradicts other verses. Since you believe that the qur'an is perfect you will look at verses to save the qur'an. I am ok with that as long as you stay honest and logic.
But in 1850 it does say he was of the Jinn. Look here
1850
Wa-ith qulna lilmala-ikatiosjudoo li-adama fasajadoo illa ibleesa kanamina aljinni fafasaqa AAan amri rabbihi afatattakhithoonahuwathurriyyatahu awliyaa min doonee wahum lakumAAaduwwun bi/sa lilththalimeena badalan
And We said to the angels "Yield to Adam." So they all yielded except for Satan. He was of the Jinn, he disobeyed the order of his Lord. Will you take him and his progeny as allies besides Me, while they are your enemy? Miserable for the transgressors is the substitute! -
I guess Ju5's intent is not to obtain something for himself but rather obtain that us, believers in the Qur'an as divine revelation, stop bein believers in such divine revelation.
We confront our arguments to get the one or the ones who are wrong closer to truth. I have been harsh, but the form shouldn't prevent your from seeing the substance if you are wise.
@parvez mushtaq
A small correction because you don't want agree with the truth
Wrong. But then again you say i am under the influence of the devil...so i guess i am wrong all the time if i don't agree with you.
If not being arrogant,
hope you are not talking about youI was not and it was very obvious. If i am impolite its not that i lack self control or patience. It is because the devil whispers me evil things. To be fair it is kind of true in a metaphorical way, i am fighting to have self control, i know that i have to be patient and stay good willing, but sometimes the shadow takes the upper hand, see huruf last post. If i had to find excuses for my arrogance, it would be that you all are different about differents meanings of things, different interpretations, even sometimes lies about arabic..;but everyone makes mistakes so i have no excuse to lose patience..
Can you give your view point on the verse 7.16
It says allah sent Iblis on the wrong path. Because he disobeyed. The only thing in 234 that is reprochaed to Iblis is his disobedience.He didn't "sujud" as you say.
The problem i have is that you people say his disobedience does'nt "count" because he was sent astray. This argument seems childishly absurd. For his disobedience that did'nt "count", Iblis had been cursed til lthe day of judgement after which he will probably end up in hell for eternity. He is not the only one to be sent astray.
In fact according to Allah, many people are being sent astray, one could say all disbelievers. Allah told muhammad not to insist, by saying something along this line-who allah sends astray, you won't be able to guide him. They will never believe, they have been cursed etc...
Does not Allah say of these people that they are rebellious?Does he not say they are arrogant? Does he not say they should fear him? If so, then why when Iblis is rebellious and arrogant, you say"it doesn't count because he was sent astray" ? -
@The Sardar
Why is it irrelevant?
because the word "Jinn" is not involved in the contradictory verses 234 and 1649. If Jinn meant frying pan it would still be contradictory.
But in 1850 it does say he was of the Jinn
I did'nt claimed he was not meantioned as a Jinn in the qur'an, hence the sentence beggining by "If"
Oh my mistake then but who are theoreticians? Isn't that a Marxist term?
Wait i am bit lost here, since when there were no jinns before Iblis?
etc
Can you please stop polluting the thread with either useless questions or questions that rose because you didn't think before posting? You accuse me of losing patience but you are grinding the little I have.
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In fact according to Allah, many people are being sent astray, one could say all disbelievers. Allah told muhammad not to insist, by saying something along this line-who allah sends astray, you won't be able to guide him. They will never believe, they have been cursed etc...
Does not Allah say of these people that they are rebellious?Does he not say they are arrogant? Does he not say they should fear him? If so, then why when Iblis is rebellious and arrogant, you say"it doesn't count because he was sent astray" ?I remember a few verses talking how people chose to disbelieve in the first place
6110
Wanuqallibu af-idatahum waabsarahumkama lam yu/minoo bihi awwala marratin wanatharuhumfee tughyanihim yaAAmahoona
We divert their hearts and eyesight, as they did not acknowledge it the first time; and We leave them wandering in their transgression.6148
Sayaqoolu allatheena ashrakoo law shaaAllahu ma ashrakna wala abaonawala harramna min shay-in kathalikakaththaba allatheena min qablihim hattathaqoo ba/sana qul hal AAindakum min AAilminfatukhrijoohu lana in tattabiAAoona illa alththannawa-in antum illa takhrusoona
Those who are polytheists will say "If God wished, we would not have set up partners, nor would have our fathers, nor would we have made anything unlawful." Those before them lied in the same way, until they tasted Our might. Say "Do you have any knowledge to bring out to us? You only follow conjecture, you only guess."7146
Saasrifu AAan ayatiyaallatheena yatakabbaroona fee al-ardi bighayri alhaqqiwa-in yaraw kulla ayatin la yu/minoo bihawa-in yaraw sabeela alrrushdi la yattakhithoohusabeelan wa-in yaraw sabeela alghayyi yattakhithoohusabeelan thalika bi-annahum kaththaboo bi-ayatinawakanoo AAanha ghafileena
I will turn away from My revelations those who are arrogant on the earth without right, and if they see every sign they do not believe in it, and if they see the path of guidance they do not take it as a path; and if they see the path of mischief, they take it as a path. That is because they have denied Our revelations and were heedless of them. -
@The Sardar
because the word "Jinn" is not involved in the contradictory verses 234 and 1649. If Jinn meant frying pan it would still be contradictory.
I did'nt claimed he was not meantioned as a Jinn in the qur'an, hence the sentence beggining by "If"etc
Can you please stop polluting the thread with either useless questions or questions that rose because you didn't think before posting? You accuse me of losing patience but you are grinding the little I have.
Well apologises but how am i polluting and when did i accusing you losing patience? If i did please show me.
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choosing or not; they are still rebellious
you are polluting with some useless questions and some questions that you wrote because you didn't think enough before posting. Your other posts are not pollution.
you didn't claimed personally that i was losing patience but some forum members did rightly so in other words
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choosing or not; they are still rebellious
you are polluting with some useless questions and some questions that you wrote because you didn't think enough before posting. Your other posts are not pollution.
you didn't claimed personally that i was losing patience but some forum members did rightly so in other words
Bold Who?
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So how dare you say that Iblis did'nt disobey because he was forced to? It is the same for everyone. And Allah still tells us that some are obedient, and some are rebellious. Although he guided us or sent us astray.
Wait where did he said that? I'm trying to find it in the thread brother Wakas showed us.
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choosing or not; they are still rebellious
But in the verses i shown does say why they were rebellious in the first place. (6110 6148 7146)
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@Noon waalqalami If you add humble and obedient creatures on top of the controllers/malaika angels, the malaika still stay obedient humble and fearful.
Is that a quranist changing the meaning of the word?
this word means command,order.There is no circumstances in 1649
Yes circumstances read in context
1649 and to god yasjudu -- no choice hardwired!
234 us'judu to adam -- have choice not hardwired!
(yuammiru) authorize e.g. make emir
(yamuru) commanded, commissioned/entrusted with task/responsibility.OK use "commanded being" no difference!
Again these are all separate and unrelated!
234 wa-idh/and when (time adverb) say we of lil'malikati/to the controllers/angels us'jud to adam fasajad except iblis refused wa-is'takbara/and was arrogant (i.e. us'jud to adam!) and became from/among l-kafirina/the rejecters
1649-50 and to god yasjudu what in the heavens and what in the land of creature wal-malikatu/and the controllers/angels and they (i.e. all creation!) not yastakbirna/arrogant being (i.e. sjudu to god!) fearing lord theirs from above them wayafalna/and fulfilling what yu'marna (i.e. sjudu to god!)
666 O you the ones believes ye of protect ye of souls yours and family yours fire of and fuel its the humankind and the stone over it (i.e. abyss!) malikatun/controllers/angels stern severe not yana/disobeying the god what amarahum/directive theirs and fulfilling what yu'marna
This thread is all over the place although thank you Ju5 for bringing these to our attention.
Peace!
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Peace Ju5.
Even if I take your line of reasoning ,I find NO CONTRADICTION.
You may say I am not honest if I do not see a contradiction, so let me demonstrate to you my logic if I go with 234 that Iblees must have been one of the Malaika. (I must highlight was a Malaika!!!)1-GOD is saying in 1649 that all Malaika are obedient and non arrogant
2-Iblees is no longer a Malaika now, Qoran confirms this(One of the Jinn)
3- Obedience and non arrogance are a criteria to be a Malaika, since Iblees is not obedient and is arrogant at that moment ,then he is not a Malaika now. If he was obedient and non arrogant when he was a Malaika, then he changed(have Malaika not got free will? Or are you assuming Malaika had no free will?)
4- Qoran is not saying to you once created Malaika ,they must stay that way(Not change to other creation)5-Qoran is saying to you obedience and non arrogance are the trait to be Malaika., Those who choose to disobey and be arrogant cannot be or stay Malaika. What is wrong with this?
Hence Iblees was a Malaika is irrelevant, he is no longer a Malaika ,so NO CONTRADICTION of 234 and 16;49 even on your line of reasoning!!!
Remember you have not brought verses to consolidate your assumptions and false knowledge of GOD s creations.
I honestly do not see a contradiction. Here is your example of before changed to
If I ask the workers to come and they all come except John, then
Either John was a worker but is now sacked, or he was summoned with the workers
So if John is no longer a worker it is because he did not satisfy the creteria of (whatever you thought contradicted, but it is clear it does not),
So likewise be honest with yourself as well and ponder more what all the verses are saying.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
@Noon waalqalami
1649-50 and to god yasjudu what in the heavens and what in the land of creature wal-malikatu/and the controllers/angels and they (i.e. all creation!) not yastakbirna/arrogant being (i.e. sjudu to god!) fearing lord theirs from above them wayafalna/and fulfilling what yu'marna (i.e. sjudu to god!)
Allah said the creatures prostrate to him. He then says that they obey him and fear him, and are humble. It isn't specified that they only obey him when he tells them to prostrate. It is not specified that they are only humble when they prostrate to Allah. In fact it doesn't make sense. One can protrate to Allah, then disobey all others commandments from him, be arrogant towards everyone, and still Allah will say they are humble fearful and obedient? This claim is not only unqur'anic and without basis, it is plainly absurd. Allah just says they obey. Why do you add words to the words of Allah? Didn't Allah forbid you to use conjecture and speculation? Maybe you should stop speculating now before Allah condemns you.
@good logic
I must highlight was a Malaika!!
You are not conceding anything. The qur'an says so. You can disagree with the qur'an if you want.
1-GOD is saying in 1649 that all Malaika are obedient and non arrogant
ok
2-Iblees is no longer a Malaika now, Qoran confirms this(One of the Jinn)
The quran didn't say he isn't a malaka anymore. You drew that conclusion. But you don't even know what is a malaka. You don't even know if you can or can't be a malaka and a jinn at the same time. Let me write it again. The quran didn't say he isn't a malaka anymore. It just says he is of the Jinns. Not that he isn't a malaka.
3- Obedience and non arrogance are a criteria to be a Malaika, since Iblees is not obedient and is arrogant at that moment ,then he is not a Malaika now. If he was obedient and non arrogant when he was a Malaika, then he changed(have Malaika not got free will? Or are you assuming Malaika had no free will?)
The qur'an claims Iblis has been sent astray by Allah. Call that free will if it pleases you. If Wakas is right, Iblis didn't had any choice. He just got lured into the path of Hell by Allah (often forgiving, most merciful).
4- Qoran is not saying to you once created Malaika ,they must stay that way(Not change to other creation)
No. But it does say they are obedient and not arrogant.But, see next point below
5-Qoran is saying to you obedience and non arrogance are the trait to be Malaika., Those who choose to disobey and be arrogant cannot be or stay Malaika. What is wrong with this?
The problem is that Allah, the Allmighty, the Allknowing, made a statement. He said malaika obey, they are humble and fearful. If the All knowing God says so, then it is so. The malaika obey and are humble. If at any point they don't obey, the the statement is not valid. The all knowing can not be wrong. All his claims must be 100% true from eternity to eternity.
You say, its not contradictory, because he got "fired" after his disobedience. I don't agree, here is why.If an employer in a factory says to his big boss " My employees show up on time. The next day, one employee shows up late. The employer fires the employee for being late. His big boss will be angry. The employee can tell him " i don't know him, he is not one of my employees(because he fired him, so the second part would be now true, but the first part a lie). The truth is that he was an employee, and showed up late.
You can't come after the war and say, oh but he was not an employee! He was. You can't come after either and say, "its no problem, he is not an employee anymore. Humans can, because they are prone to error. Allah can not, because he must always be right. He CAN NOT exaggerate. His statements must be TRUE.Maybe the employee got fired, and is no more an employee. But before getting fired, he was. The employer, by saying this, made an exaggeration. It was not an eternal statement, it was a very human sentence. Then again, there is no point saying "my employees shows up on time" if they happen to show up late, except to show a trend, because humans know they are prone to error. Allah CAN NOT be prone to error. He does not show trends. If Allah says malaika obey. And then, malaika happen to disobey. Allah can "fire" them if he wants but it doesn't look like he is omniscient. It looks like he is poorly trying to save the appearances. If a man did this, you would say it is pathetic.
My point of view is that the qur'an is not without error. You will never agree with me even if i am right if you think the qur'an CAN NOT contain error. Because you won't put it to the test. Now you will think, this contradiction is ridiculous, so it can't be true. My point of view is that the qur'an is a big work, and as intelligent it/its writer(s) was/were, they did some mistakes, even some internally.
Because when an omniscient god says, malaika are obedient,fearful and humble. Then they must always obey. If they don't obey, it becomes contradictory. Even if after if he "fires" the disobedient one, to say "it doesn"t count, he is no longer a malaka anymore". And I say it again, the qur'an does not say in any explicit way that Iblis is not a malaka anymore, it is your interpretation(as you want to cling to anything that would "save" this verse, which i understand. -
@Noon waalqalamiAllah said the creatures prostrate to him. He then says that they obey him and fear him, and are humble. It isn't specified that they only obey him when he tells them to prostrate. It is not specified that they are only humble when they prostrate to Allah. In fact it doesn't make sense. One can protrate to Allah, then disobey all others commandments from him, be arrogant towards everyone, and still Allah will say they are humble fearful and obedient? This claim is not only unqur'anic and without basis, it is plainly absurd. Allah just says they obey. Why do you add words to the words of Allah? Didn't Allah forbid you to use conjecture and speculation? Maybe you should stop speculating now before Allah condemns you.
What was he speculating? I'm checking his last reply and i honestly don't see the speculation. If i missed it please show me & brother Noon.
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@Noon waalqalamiAllah said the creatures prostrate to him. He then says that they obey him and fear him, and are humble.
no, in "context" pertains "only" to sjd to god includes all creation and humans too.
humans/anyone not humble/behave arrogant other than sjd to god does not apply.
