Question for the people with knowledge

Noon_waalqalami

1649 and the angels , and they are not arrogant

1650 They fear their Lord above them, and they do what they are commanded.

There are numerous occurrences of acting arrogant and ?in context? to proud to us'jud to Adam!

234 wa-idh/and when (time adverb i.e. past event!) said we of lil'malikati/to the controllers/angels us'jud to adam fasajad except iblis refused wa-is'takbara/and was arrogant and became from/among the rejecters

Likewise (thumma) not arrogant ?in context? about sjudu to

1649-50 and to god yasjudu what in the heavens and what in the land from creature wal-malikatu/and the controllers/angels and they not yastakbirna/arrogant being fearing lord theirs from above them wayafalna/and fulfilling what yu'marna/authorized being

Are you that lazy that' you can't read the verses or are you a liar?

No your lies are present in every post. 3119... say die/perish ye of in rage yours!
Btw was going to get really nasty with you and decided to refrain -- although keep pushing it.

Ju5

Wait i am bit lost here, since when there were no jinns before Iblis?

i never claimed that. and the part in bold you quoted begins by "if you say". i was putting myself in the skin of the theoreticians of this forum.

Ju5

Now there is no need for harsh response and secondly how is he a liar?

because, he claims that the verses had nothing to do with each other as one begins with "the creatures prostrate to allah" and the other said"iblis didnt prostrate(to adam) which would make the verses not contradictory.
But if he did read the verses more carefully he would see that the first says also says that the malaika who prostrate to allah are also not arrogant and do what they are commanded, which makes the verses contradictory, therefore i said "are you lazy or a liar?". Because if he isnt a liar it means that he doesn't even read my posts. That would be intellectual laziness. I bet he isn't as lazy when he wants to save the qur'an integrity. So in both cases he would be dishonest.

Ju5

There are numerous occurrences of acting arrogant and ?in context? to proud to us'jud to Adam!

234 wa-idh/and when (time adverb i.e. past event!) said we of lil'malikati/to the controllers/angels us'jud to adam fasajad except iblis refused wa-is'takbara/and was arrogant and became from/among the rejecters

Likewise (thumma) not arrogant ?in context? about sjudu to

1649-50 and to god yasjudu what in the heavens and what in the land from creature wal-malikatu/and the controllers/angels and they not yastakbirna/arrogant being fearing lord theirs from above them wayafalna/and fulfilling what yu'marna/authorized being

No your lies are present in every post. 3119... say die/perish ye of in rage yours!
Btw was going to get really nasty with you and decided to refrain -- although keep pushing it.

if iblis feared allah was not arrogant and did what he was commanded, even if only towards Allah, he woudl have sajada" to adam because allah commanded him to. In fact all malaika did except him. lies in my posts? care to show one?

The_Sardar

i never claimed that. and the part in bold you quoted begins by "if you say". i was putting myself in the skin of the theoreticians of this forum.

Oh my mistake then but who are theoreticians? Isn't that a Marxist term?

The_Sardar

Salam/Peace brother Noon Waalqalami i don't know if these verses has anything to do with this debate but here it is

5533
Ya maAAshara aljinni waal-insiini istataAAtum an tanfuthoo min aqtari alssamawatiwaal-ardi faonfuthoo la tanfuthoonailla bisultanin
O assembly of Jinn and mankind, if you can penetrate the boundaries of the heavens and the earth, then go ahead and penetrate. You will not penetrate without might.

6128
Wayawma yahshuruhum jameeAAan yamaAAshara aljinni qadi istakthartum mina al-insi waqalaawliyaohum mina al-insi rabbana istamtaAAa baAAdunabibaAAdin wabalaghna ajalana allatheeajjalta lana qala alnnaru mathwakumkhalideena feeha illa ma shaaAllahu inna rabbaka hakeemun AAaleemun
And the Day We gather them all "O assembly of Jinn, you have managed to take many from mankind." Their supporters from mankind said "Our Lord, we have indeed enjoyed one another, and we have reached our destiny to which You delayed us." He said "The Fire is your dwelling, abiding therein, except as your Lord wishes." Your Lord is Wise, Knowledgeable.

6130
Ya maAAshara aljinni waal-insialam ya/tikum rusulun minkum yaqussoona AAalaykum ayateewayunthiroonakum liqaa yawmikum hatha qalooshahidna AAala anfusina wagharrat-humu alhayatualddunya washahidoo AAala anfusihim annahumkanoo kafireena
"O assembly of Jinn and mankind, did not messengers come to you from among you and tell to you My revelations, and warn you of the meeting of this Day?" They said "Yes, we bear witness upon ourselves;" and the worldly life deceived them, and they bore witness upon themselves that they were rejecters.

Keyword here maAAshara (&#1585. It's root word is Ayn-Shiin-Ra = to take away a tenth part, make ten by adding one to nine, be the tenth. ashrun/asharun (f.), asharatun/ashratun (m.) ten, decade, period from three to ten. After twenty there is no difference between feminine and masculine. ashara - to consort, live with, cultivate one's society, become familiar. ashirun - companion, ashiratun - kindred, ma'sharun - company, race, multitude, who live in close communion with (pl. ashair).

ashir n.m. 2213

ashirah n.f. 924, 26214, 5822

ashr n.m. (num. f. asharah) 2196, 2234, 589, 6160, 7142, 1113, 20103, 2827, 892

ishar n.f. (pl. of ushra) 814

ishrun n.m. num. 865

ma'shar n.m. 6128, 6130, 5533

mi'shar n.m. num. 3445

ashara vb. (3) impv. 419

Lane's Lexicon, Volume 5, pages 335, 336, 337, 338 ## http//ejtaal.net/aa/#q=eshr

Now i made this one bold and Free-Minds.org translate it as assembly and i looked the meaning of it and it says

assembly
smbli
noun
1.
a group of people gathered together in one place for a common purpose.
"an assembly of dockers and labourers"
synonyms gathering, meeting, congregation, convention, rally, convocation, congress, council, synod, audience, assemblage, turnout, group, body, crowd, throng, company; informalget-together
"the Council of Nicaea was the largest assembly of bishops hitherto"
2.
the action of gathering together as a group for a common purpose.
"a decree guaranteeing freedom of assembly"

Now i also checked on 1850 and it said that he was of the jinn, doesn't it show something here different? Sorry if this question is a bit off.

parvez_mushtaq

There are numerous occurrences of acting arrogant and ?in context? to proud to us'jud to Adam!

234 wa-idh/and when (time adverb i.e. past event!) said we of lil'malikati/to the controllers/angels us'jud to adam fasajad except iblis refused wa-is'takbara/and was arrogant and became from/among the rejecters

Likewise (thumma) not arrogant ?in context? about sjudu to

1649-50 and to god yasjudu what in the heavens and what in the land from creature wal-malikatu/and the controllers/angels and they not yastakbirna/arrogant being fearing lord theirs from above them wayafalna/and fulfilling what yu'marna/authorized being

No your lies are present in every post. 3119... say die/perish ye of in rage yours!
Btw was going to get really nasty with you and decided to refrain -- although keep pushing it.

if iblis feared allah was not arrogant and did what he was commanded, even if only towards Allah, he woudl have sajada" to adam because allah commanded him to. In fact all malaika did except him. lies in my posts? care to show one?

Do you really think your companion Mr.iblis is not obeying ALLAH subhanavatala

Noon_waalqalami

if iblis feared allah was not arrogant and did what he was commanded, even if only towards Allah, he woudl have sajada" to adam because allah commanded him to. In fact all malaika did except him. lies in my posts? care to show one?

Read in context it does not pertain to all circumstances all the time. These are pertaining to different circumstances.

http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=kbr#

3735 ... when told to them not deity except the god yastakbirna

1648-50 do they not seeth they of to what creation the god from thing incline of shadows theirs about the right and the left sujjadan to god and they (i.e. all creation!) humble being and to god yasjudu what in the heavens and what in the land of creature wal-malikatu/and the controllers/angels and they (i.e. all creation!) not yastakbirna (i.e. concerning sjudu to the creator) fearing lord theirs from above them wayafalna/and fulfilling what yu'marna/authorized being

Likewise pertains specifically to group of nineteen controllers over abyss.

666 O you the ones believes ye of protect ye of souls yours and family yours fire of and fuel its the humankind and the stone over it malikatun/controllers/angels stern severe not yana/disobeying the god what amarahum/directive theirs and fulfilling what yu'marna/authorized being

7429-31 scorching to the mortal over it nonet ten (i.e. group of nineteen) and not made we of companions/guardians? the fire except malikatan/controllers/angels?

parvez_mushtaq

Assalamualaikum Rahamatullahi Wabrakathahu
The verse 2.34
And when We said to the angels, "Prostrate before Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He refused and was arrogant and became of the disbelievers.

Is a verse addressing about the creation of humanity and the basic episode for the existence of humans on earth

The chosen one was iblees as mention in the verses
Verse 7.16
said, "Because You have put me in error, I will surely sit in wait for them on Your straight path.

And

Verse 15.39
said, "My Lord, because You have put me in error, I will surely make attractive to them on earth, and I will mislead them all

So by the will of ALLAH subhanavatala the obedience of iblees is to disobey the command given to him by ALLAH subahnavatala .By the will of ALLAH subahnavatala iblees became disobedient .

Now ,lets take the verses

Verse 16.48
Have they not considered what things Allah has created? Their shadows incline to the right and to the left, prostrating to Allah, while they are humble.

Verse 16.49
And to Allah prostrates whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth of creatures, and the angels , and they are not arrogant.

Verse 16.50
They fear their Lord above them, and they do what they are commanded.

As per these verses , Sun must burn with immense heat ,moon must reflect light ,earth must be a habitable .if we take creatures on earth ,all creatures does their basic characteristics for which they were designed .like wise , the basic characteristic of iblees is to deviate people from the right path which he was/is obediently doing as on today .
So where is the contradiction here . iblees was obedient in verse 2.34 and he is obedient in verses 16.48-50 as well
can any one prove iblees has stopped deviating people.he is performing his job with utmost perfection
the most practical example for the obedience of iblees is you Ju5 .can you deny that

Ju5

@ parvez mushtaq

the most practical example for the obedience of iblees is you Ju5

Because i don't agree with you i am under the influence of the devil. Great way of thinking.

moon must reflect light

Nur means light, not reflected light

,all creatures does their basic characteristics for which they were designed

If not being arrogant, fearing one s lord and doing what this lord commanded him, is equal to eating and pooping, then all men will go to heaven, as they have the most basic characteristics. If being humble, fearful and obedient, is doing what you are told by god and not speaking about which you do not know, then Iblis is not obedient and humble.

iblees was obedient in verse 2.34
If you mean that to be obedient, you have to disobey, then yes, he was obedient. Quranists logic in a nutshell.

Ju5

@Noon waalqalami

wal-malikatu/and the controllers/angels and they (i.e. all creation!)

If you add humble and obedient creatures on top of the controllers/malaika angels, the malaika still stay obedient humble and fearful.

wayafalna/and fulfilling what yu'marna/authorized being

Is that a quranist changing the meaning of the word? nothing new under the sun
this word means command,order.. it can mean affair, affair is a thing that has to be done, from french "? faire" (to do). Are you saying that malaika can be arrogant as long as it does not involve prostrating to Allah(while being fearful of their Lord and doing what they are commanded).
You clearly have no shame inventing the most dubious "explanations", without even basis, if it means saving the qur'an. The ironic thing is that the Qur'an condemns conjecture and speaking of which you do not know.
I am not being offensive with you here, but you are being dishonest. The person you will hurt the most that way is yourself.

Read in context it does not pertain to all circumstances all the time. These are pertaining to different circumstances.

There is no circumstances in 1649. They malaika just obey and are humble/fearful to their Lord. Will you pull circumstances from your hat. The words(not arrogant,fearful...) are even in imperfect which means they didn't stop being so.

The fact that the qur'an being contradictory is hard to swallow, and it is legitimate for you to try saving it, but not at the expension of logic and reason. You are all spouting your own personal arguments, all different from one another, without basis, and the arguments do not even stand. At this point can can either stop believing it is a perfect book preserved by God, or just say" we don't know the interpretation, maybe we'll do someday, but we still believe it is perfect."Might as well believe in greek gods. But the qur'an claims to be clear, a guide for humanity, and challenges us by saying it would contain contradictions if it was false.
And this is just one contradiction that you are not able to answer. What will you do if i confront you to others? A part from changing all the meanings of the words although you don't know arabic? Apart from refering to others verses with no link? Apart from putting in metaphors/symbolism or expressions? How can the qur'an be a guide if everyone reads it and interprets it personally? If you have several maps they will not lead to the same place right? To be the guide for humanity the least you would need is to be clear and homogenous. With quranists, the qur'an is none of that. Except about morals that existed before islam and were taken from elsewhere.

Wakas

@Ju5,

disbeliever/kafir.

kafir does not necessarily mean "disbeliever", it more correctly means concealer/ungrateful/rejecter

Even is that theory has no basis in the qur'an and is totally made up,

No, the evidence was given in the thread. Here is one verse

He/it (iblis) said, "so because You have allowed/caused me to stray...

M.Asad note "Or "allowed me to fall into error". The term aghwahu denotes both "he caused him to err" or "he caused him to be disappointed" or "to fail in attaining his desire" (cf. Lane VI, 2304f.). Since. in this case. the saying of Iblis refers to the loss of his erstwhile position among the angels, the rendering adopted by me seems to be the most appropriate."

With regards to your other points

The Quranic narrative on the origins of mankind and the initiation of this life/test is obviously for our (the intended recipients of Quran) benefit. I mentioned this here. Ponder.

The word "jinn" does not necessarily mean the same thing everywhere.

If you do reply to this, please keep it concise, and ideally, along the lines of

your view contradicts verse XYZ
your view is not logical because of XYZ

Thanks.

The_Sardar

@ parvez mushtaq

Nur means light, not reflected light

Actually brother Parvez Mushtaq didn't say Nur, he said Moon must reflect light

As per these verses , Sun must burn with immense heat ,moon must reflect light ,earth must be a habitable .if we take creatures on earth ,all creatures does their basic characteristics for which they were designed .like wise , the basic characteristic of iblees is to deviate people from the right path which he was/is obediently doing as on today .
So where is the contradiction here . iblees was obedient in verse 2.34 and he is obedient in verses 16.48-50 as well
can any one prove iblees has stopped deviating people.he is performing his job with utmost perfection
the most practical example for the obedience of iblees is you Ju5 .can you deny that

good_logic

Peace All.
I am giving my analysis of this thread and it is my take on this discussion so far.

It seems to me, ,from Ju5 posts, the brother s aim is to show you that Qoran contains many contradictions, Qoran is confusing and Qoran has multiple interpretations especially from Qoranists. Hence Qoran cannot be GOD s word.

His logic is the Arabic words only mean what he has decided/ chosen them to mean( For example brother The Sardar will list 10 or more meanings to 1 word ,but brother Ju5 will insist on one or two more popular meaning for the word regardless of the contradiction!). Also his logic is to discuss a couple of verses that he thinks they contradict ,regardless of the context of the other verses on the same subject.

This is what brother Ju5 says

And this is just one contradiction that you are not able to answer. What will you do if i confront you to others? A part from changing all the meanings of the words although you don't know arabic? Apart from refering to others verses with no link? Apart from putting in metaphors/symbolism or expressions? How can the qur'an be a guide if everyone reads it and interprets it personally? If you have several maps they will not lead to the same place right? To be the guide for humanity the least you would need is to be clear and homogenous. With quranists, the qur'an is none of that. Except about morals that existed before islam and were taken from elsewhere.

It is futile continuing the discussion ,in my opinion ,with the brother because of the following
1- There will be a lot of speculations/ differing views even among Qoranists and there is not one consistent /certain answer that we can give the brother on this subject simply because we do not know the full story of the event nor did we witness it. Ju5 must also be doing a lot of speculations and assumptions himself because he is not looking at before and after the event of why sujud to Adam and he has not witnessed it nor does he know of anyone else that has.
Let me explain by asking some questions
Were the Jinns another creation before they were created Jinns?
Were we another creation before we were created Humans? And
Were the Angels another creation before they became Angels?
Why was it necessary for the different classification of all these souls?(Angels,Jinns,humans...etc)
What is the difference between these souls and why this universe and earth?

And many more questions on GOD s creations and purpose for the souls....

GOD says "We did not have them(us humans) witness the creation of the heaven and earth nor the creation of themselves nor were we to take the "Mudillin"( Misguided/rebels...)...i.e There is a good reason for us to undergo this life as humans.

2- There is a good reason for the Malaika and Iblees to undergo that test of loyalty. (Malaika themselves wanted to know the purpose of putting -humans- and Jinns- on earth to corrupt it?)

3- Nowhere in Qoran do we find a clear statement that Iblees was a Malaika. If you imply that 234 says that, then you cannot confirm it elsewhere in Qoran, however one can clearly confirm that he was not at the time of his rebellion . it clearly says Iblees was of the Jinns.

4-If we cannot agree on giving you the same answer, it does not mean there is no answer. Also it does not mean your answer/what you concluded is the right answer. It just means you and us need more knowledge on this subject.

Finally, you have 2 choices
A- Study more and ponder Qoran deeper, you seem intelligent enough to do it yourself
B- Leave Qoran well alone. Do not waste your time with it.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

huruf

I guess Ju5's intent is not to obtain something for himself but rather obtain that us, believers in the Qur'an as divine revelation, stop bein believers in such divine revelation. Why on earth should we wish to adhere to our own understanding of the revelation when there is his own, Ju5 understanding of the revelation, which indeed is that it is no divine revelation?

How dare we not fall in sujud to Ju5 and instead cling to do sujud to God as per our own understanding of God's revelation of Himself?

How dare we? We deserve no forgiveness from Ju5 nor that he should relent.

Salaam

The_Sardar

Well said Good Logic.

The_Sardar

Well brother/sister Huruf we tried to to have a calm good conversation but unfortunately it went heated.

parvez_mushtaq

@Ju5,

kafir does not necessarily mean "disbeliever", it more correctly means concealer/ungrateful/rejecter

No, the evidence was given in the thread. Here is one verse

He/it (iblis) said, "so because You have allowed/caused me to stray...

With regards to your other points

The Quranic narrative on the origins of mankind and the initiation of this life/test is obviously for our (the intended recipients of Quran) benefit. I mentioned this here. Ponder.

The word "jinn" does not necessarily mean the same thing everywhere.

If you do reply to this, please keep it concise, and ideally, along the lines of

your view contradicts verse XYZ
your view is not logical because of XYZ

Thanks.

That was quite a interesting thread .i didn't not noticed that earlier

parvez_mushtaq

@ parvez mushtaq
Because i don't agree with you i am under the influence of the devil. Great way of thinking.

A small correction because you don't want agree with the truth

If not being arrogant,

hope you are not talking about you .if you think you are polite and humble then lets see your most humble remarks about the others participants who respected your view points and answered you

about Noon who contributed in this thread right from the beginning ....

1649 and the angels , and they are not arrogant

1650 They fear their Lord above them, and they do what they are commanded.

Are you that lazy that' you can't read the verses or are you a liar?

About wakas ....

@Wakas......

Even is that theory has no basis in the qur'an and is totally made up, i salute that you are admitting that iblis is one of the malaika, which means you probably passed elementary school. ....

and the li9st goes on and on ... if this is humility can you tell me what is arrogance

fearing one s lord and doing what this lord commanded him, is equal to eating and pooping, then all men will go to heaven, as they have the most basic characteristics. If being humble, fearful and obedient, is doing what you are told by god and not speaking about which you do not know, then Iblis is not obedient and humble.

the common characteristics of humans are same it was up to ALLAH subhanavatala to decide about heaven

If you mean that to be obedient, you have to disobey, then yes, he was obedient. Quranists logic in a nutshell.

Can you give your view point on the verse 7.16

parvez_mushtaq