Question for the people with knowledge
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Peace Ju5.
No brother, just because the word Malaika is in both verses does not mean the verses are connected.
1649 says all the creatures and Malaika. So you are going to come back and say some of the creatures also do not obey and are arrogant, like some humans and Jinns?
1649 is about GOD s plan and purpose (As far as GOD is concerned,He has planned His creations to execute their lives without deviation including permitted free will) .Nothing to do with our choice or the Malaikas choice of obedience.
For example your body performs the functions given to it by the creator , your heart beats until the predetermined time for it to stop...etc
Everything is programmed according to GOD s will including giving you, humans, Jinns... this predetermined life span to choose and decide.Can t you see that it is a completely different subject from a sujud to Adam?
How come then you are highlighting and isolating only the Malaika in 1649 when GOD is speaking about all the creation?
Or is it to satisfy your made up contradiction?
As you can see ,I have said everything I wanted to say and I hope it is clear.
Other than that ,we will be both wasting conversing in this thread since I will be repeating myself.
I hope you collect all the verses about sujud to Adam and sujud to the Creator and ponder them deeply and keep searching.
If you are sure of your way and understanding, then leave Qoran to whoever wants to waste their time and use your time elsewhere where you find benefits.
GOD bless you.
Peace.I'm going have to agree, this debate is sadly have been too heated that the argument has going back and forth about this "contradiction".
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There is no contradiction if some one wants to get guidance from the Quran. The Quran helps all those who want to seek guidance as well as those who want to seek misguidance because of sickness in their hearts.
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Indeed, Allah is not timid to present an example - that of a mosquito or what is smaller than it. And those who have believed know that it is the truth from their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, they say, "What did Allah intend by this as an example?" He misleads many thereby and guides many thereby. And He misleads not except the defiantly disobedient,
Members participating in this thread have done their best to convey the message but looks like Jus 5 is only looking for misguidance from the Quran and he will not be disappointed.
I felt his intention so I decided to not hit the wall with my head. There are better things to utilize my time. So Jus 5 enjoy your mission but be assured no one can distort the message.
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@good logic
1649 says all the creatures and Malaika. So you are going to come back and say some of the creatures also do not obey and are arrogant, like some humans and Jinns?
Don't make me say what i didn't. In 1649 creatures and malaika are obedient/fearful/humble. I am not adding nor removing anything. So i won't say anything is or is not obedient in the qur'an, except if the qur'an says so.
And that's what it does in 234 it tells us a malaka is disobedient and arrogant. I am not distorting anything it is written.permitted free will
free will means when it is permitted? if there are times when it is not allowed, then it is not free will. That's another subject, let's stay on malaika.
For example your body performs the functions given to it by the creator , your heart beats until the predetermined time for it to stop...etc
Everything is programmed according to GOD s will including giving you, humans, Jinns..this is wrong for two reasons
-your heart can beat while you are arrogant, rebellious and not fearful of God. So according to your definition, God would say of an arrogant and disobedient man that he is obedient and humble because his heart beats according to his plan. Which would be wrong.
-The qur'an only says creatures and malaika obey and are humble. By saying it only speaks about the heart beat and God's plan in general, you are adding words to the qur'an. Nothing in 1649 explicitly says it speaks only about an order or god's plan, it just says creatures and malaika are obedient, humble and fearful " they do what they are commanded". Personally i don't obey Allah by making my heart beat. It beats regardless of my will. And i am not my heart, and my heart is not me, i am more than a heart. If you were right, Allah wouldn't command creatures and malaika, but he would command the hearts, the cells etc.. He didn't. He spoke clearly about creatures and malaika. I am quoting the qur'an as is, you are interpreting it freely and personally.
If you say it can't be otherwise, this becomes circular reasoning because you will say"the qur'an can't be wrong because it is true". Therefore you cannot think rationally and wil not admit any contradiction, if i show you one or one hundred. And i didn't show only one. There's is no point discussing anymore about thoses verses with you as you give your own personal interpretation. I advise you to hunt for the qur'an s problems. If the qur'an is true, it will pass the test. When you have a cluster of clues, it becomes fishy, and deserves to be questioned. Finally if you truly believe in the qur'an, you might as well stop making allah say what he didn't if you fear a hard punishment.
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There is no contradiction if some one wants to get guidance from the Quran. The Quran helps all those who want to seek guidance as well as those who want to seek misguidance because of sickness in their hearts.
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Indeed, Allah is not timid to present an example - that of a mosquito or what is smaller than it. And those who have believed know that it is the truth from their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, they say, "What did Allah intend by this as an example?" He misleads many thereby and guides many thereby. And He misleads not except the defiantly disobedient,
Members participating in this thread have done their best to convey the message but looks like Jus 5 is only looking for misguidance from the Quran and he will not be disappointed.
I felt his intention so I decided to not hit the wall with my head. There are better things to utilize my time. So Jus 5 enjoy your mission but be assured no one can distort the message.
That is some nice smoke and chit chat, care to give me a little sentence to briefly explain to me why those verses arn't contradictory?
I am feeling your intention too, and i am guessing you have no short and sound explanation, your explanations would be long, opaque and tortuous, as are all manipulations and fabrications, and you have seen that i didn't buy those made up translations and false interpretations. So pretending you have one but not wanting to give it for reason X or Y is a classic move. You are not a truly honest believer, as if you were, you would give me a simple explanation to help me reconsider the qur'an and be saved. But i guess typing a sentence is harder than typing what you did.If a party is distorting the qur'an, it is clearly quranists from this forum. The proof = everyone has a different hypothesis.
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That is some nice smoke and chit chat, care to give me a little sentence to briefly explain to me why those verses arn't contradictory?
I am feeling your intention too, and i am guessing you have no short and sound explanation, your explanations would be long, opaque and tortuous, as are all manipulations and fabrications, and you have seen that i didn't buy those made up translations and false interpretations. So pretending you have one but not wanting to give it for reason X or Y is a classic move. You are not a truly honest believer, as if you were, you would give me a simple explanation to help me reconsider the qur'an and be saved. But i guess typing a sentence is harder than typing what you did.How is he distorting? Can you provide the linguistic evidence?
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Peace Ju5.
Let me give you another verse that is connected to 1649 to ponder your contradiction and rethink /reflect or stay put with your false understanding.
1315
To God "Yasjudu" everyone in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly...Now this is the "Sujud" to Allah that is talked about also in 1649.
Surely you can clearly see this is GOD s plan and purpose . That everything is meticulously planned and submit to GOD s overall plan.
Go on say how you personally do not submit to His plan? Or say that this verse also contradicts 234 which is a completely different subject.
Like 1649 is a different subject and has nothing to do with "sujud" to Adam or obedience /disobedience of creations.In simple language,1315 and 1649 mean that all creatures are submitting to GOD s overall plan.
If you study Qoran properly, you will find that Arabic words can have different meanings according to the context.
As you can see 1315 and 1649 are,two verses with the same subject and context.
Unlike 234 and 1649 ,they have different contexts and subject. So how can they possibly contradict each other?Like I said in my last post, I hope you go back and ponder Qoran deeper, if you wish.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Ju5.
Let me give you another verse that is connected to 1649 to ponder your contradiction and rethink /reflect or stay put with your false understanding.
1315
To God "Yasjudu" everyone in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly...Now this is the "Sujud" to Allah that is talked about also in 1649.
Surely you can clearly see this is GOD s plan and purpose . That everything is meticulously planned and submit to GOD s overall plan.
Go on say how you personally do not submit to His plan? Or say that this verse also contradicts 234 which is a completely different subject.
Like 1649 is a different subject and has nothing to do with "sujud" to Adam or obedience /disobedience of creations.In simple language,1315 and 1649 mean that all creatures are submitting to GOD s overall plan.
If you study Qoran properly, you will find that Arabic words can have different meanings according to the context.
As you can see 1315 and 1649 are,two verses with the same subject and context.
Unlike 234 and 1649 ,they have different contexts and subject. So how can they possibly contradict each other?Like I said in my last post, I hope you go back and ponder Qoran deeper, if you wish.
GOD bless you.
Peace.Don't forget to show the root words dear brother, the root definition of the arabic words that Allah/God (SWTAY) using will give us the clarity. (I hope i said that correctly, my English is not word class.)
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in 234 it tells us a malaka is disobedient and arrogant.
That pertains to topic 234 us'jud to adam
In 1649 creatures and malaika are obedient/fearful/humble.
This pertains to topic 1649-50 and to god yasjudu
(all creation "they" have no choice hardwired/programmed/genetically determined or compelled)1315 and to god yasjudu whom in the heavens and the land like of and dislike of and shadows theirs in the early mornings and the late afternoons
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That pertains to topic 234 us'jud to adam
This pertains to topic 1649-50 and to god yasjudu
(all creation "they" have no choice hardwired/programmed/genetically determined or compelled)1315 and to god yasjudu whom in the heavens and the land like of and dislike of and shadows theirs in the early mornings and the late afternoons
There was a reason why Iblis didn't yield to Adam.
1532
Qala ya ibleesu ma lakaalla takoona maAAa alssajideena
He said "O Iblis, what is the matter that you are not of those who yielded?"1533
Qala lam akun li-asjuda libasharinkhalaqtahu min salsalin min hama-in masnoonin
He said "I am not to yield to a human being whom You have created from a sludge from hot sediment."I don't know but why do i have a feeling that this sounds like that Iblis was a racist towards us humans Noon?
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Peace Ju5.
Let me give you another verse that is connected to 1649 to ponder your contradiction and rethink /reflect or stay put with your false understanding.
1315
To God "Yasjudu" everyone in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly...Now this is the "Sujud" to Allah that is talked about also in 1649.
Surely you can clearly see this is GOD s plan and purpose . That everything is meticulously planned and submit to GOD s overall plan.
Go on say how you personally do not submit to His plan? Or say that this verse also contradicts 234 which is a completely different subject.
Like 1649 is a different subject and has nothing to do with "sujud" to Adam or obedience /disobedience of creations.In simple language,1315 and 1649 mean that all creatures are submitting to GOD s overall plan.
If you study Qoran properly, you will find that Arabic words can have different meanings according to the context.
As you can see 1315 and 1649 are,two verses with the same subject and context.
Unlike 234 and 1649 ,they have different contexts and subject. So how can they possibly contradict each other?Like I said in my last post, I hope you go back and ponder Qoran deeper, if you wish.
GOD bless you.
Peace.You say there is free will, then you say we do things willingly or unwillingly you contradict yourself.
Questions
-Did iblis disobey by his own free will, or by Allah's will?
-If he disobeyed by Allah s will, why is is doomed to hell? if he didn't have the choice, like the rain drop doesn't choose to fall, why is he responsible ?
-How can you reconcile that Allah forces beings, willingly and unwillingly, to accomplish what he wants, yet qualifies some of them as humble and obedient? (When I turn off my computer by clicking on shutdown, i don't say afterwards "My computer is humble and obedient". Furthermore i don't judge my computer according to his deeds, i don't tell it that it's is responsible for his actions, and when it bugs, i don't hold it for responsible, as i know it just does what he does.Lastly, 1649 does not speak about rocks or shadows being obedient, or god s plan, but of malaika and moving creatures being obedient and humble. This noy only about prostrating/sjd, it is also about obedience, fear of the Lord, and being humble. You don't find these things in 1315, so your methodology looks hasty. You found the world sjd, and you jumped to your nice sugary conclusion.
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That pertains to topic 234 us'jud to adam
This pertains to topic 1649-50 and to god yasjudu
(all creation "they" have no choice hardwired/programmed/genetically determined or compelled)1315 and to god yasjudu whom in the heavens and the land like of and dislike of and shadows theirs in the early mornings and the late afternoons
can you please cut it, prostrating/sjd is not the same as being obedient, fearful of the lord and not arrogant. They do what they are commanded. It doesn't say "they do what they are commanded when god tells them to prostrate towards him", it just says "they do what they are commanded". You say"pertains to sjd". You have NO PROOF of this. NOTHING in the verse indicates it. Meaning EVERYTHING God commands them, they do it. So once again please cut it. I don't like repeating the same things in the ears of deaf men.
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Lastly, 1649 does not speak about rocks or shadows being obedient, or god s plan, but of malaika and moving creatures being obedient and humble. This noy only about prostrating/sjd, it is also about obedience, fear of the Lord, and being humble. You don't find these things in 1315, so your methodology looks hasty. You found the world sjd, and you jumped to your nice sugary conclusion.
Actually in the previous verse it does mention shadows
1648
Awa lam yaraw ila ma khalaqaAllahu min shay-in yatafayyao thilaluhuAAani alyameeni waalshshama-ili sujjadan lillahiwahum dakhiroona
Have they not seen that what God has created of a thing, its shadow (thilaluhu) inclines to the right and the left in yielding to God; and they are humbled!Za-Lam-Lam ( ل = to remain, last, continue doing a thing, be, become, grow into, remain, persevere, went on doing. zallala and azalla - to shade, give shade over. zillun - shade, shadow, shelter. zullatun - awning, shelter, booth, covering, cloud giving shade, protection, state of ease and happiness.
zalla perf. 3rd. m. sing. assim.
zallat perf. 3rd. f. sing.
zalta perf. 2nd. m. sing.
zallu perf. 3rd. m. pl.
zalaltum impf. 2nd. m. pl.
yazlalnaa impf. 3rd. f. pl.
nazallu impf. 1st. pl.
zallanaa perf. 1st. pl. vb. 2zalla vb. (1)
perf. act. 1514, 1658, 2097, 264, 3051, 4317, 5665
impf. 1st. pl. act. nathallu 2671
impf. 3rd. f. pl. act. yathlalna 4233zalil n.m. (acc. adj. 2nd. pcple.) 457, 7731
zill n.m. (pl. zilal) 457, 1315, 1335, 1648, 1681, 2545, 2824, 3521, 3656, 5630, 5643, 7614, 7730, 7741
zullah n.f. (pl. zulal) 2210, 7171, 26189, 3132, 3916, 3916
zallala vb. (2) perf. 1st. pl.
perf. act. 257, 7160LL, V5, pages 199, 200, 201, 202 ## http//ejtaal.net/aa/#q=Zll
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-It still does not say shadows are obedient, so there is no "actually". And they don't do what they are commanded/are fearful of the lord, they just prostrate like the laws of physics orders them to.
-You rely again on damned metaphors by comparing THINGS like shadows and LIVING BEINGS.
- It does not say the shadows are obedient, the shadows prostrate and are humble( how would they not be, they just are shadows and as far as we know always follow the laws of physics). The BEINGS not only prostrate and are humble, but they fear their lord and they do what they are commanded to do, which are not attributes of shadows.
If Allah says some beings are obedient and fearful, it means what it means. Does allah say rocks and shadows do what they are commanded and are fearful? No. You would be making Allah a poet by claiming he said malaika are obedient but actually they can disobey he was just talking about how their light shines and how his divine plan goes on no matter what. Allah just said malaika are obedient and fearful, he did not for for shadows.
If malaika could disobey, why would Allah say malaika always obey? . If Iblis didn't fear god enough to obey him, why would Allah say he is fearful?
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-It still does not say shadows are obedient, so there is no "actually". And they don't do what they are commanded/are fearful of the lord, they just prostrate like the laws of physics orders them to.
-You rely again on damned metaphors by comparing THINGS like shadows and LIVING BEINGS.
I never said anything about metaphors or comparing. I'm just saying shadows are mentioned in the previous verse.
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Peace Ju5.
You are insisting on your contradiction despite these facts1- 1315 and 1649 are both talking about all the creations.
2- 1315 and 1649 are both about "sujud" to GOD . Unlike 234 which is about "sujud" to Adam.
3-1315 and 1649 are both talking about GOD s will and purpose not about the creations obedience or disobedience.
4- You are mixing up GOD s will and free will.I read every word you have written in this thread and I found your knowledge of Qoran poor and hasty, I am sorry to say.
All there is left to say to you is you are entitled to your free will of staying put with your contradiction.
I have been where you are before, my challenge to Qoran with many contradictions failed . In fact I found my arguments built on false knowledge, men s interpretations and assumptions.
My study of Qoran at the moment is ongoing.
Your choice and decision.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Ju5.
You are insisting on your contradiction despite these facts1- 1315 and 1649 are both talking about all the creations.
2- 1315 and 1649 are both about "sujud" to GOD . Unlike 234 which is about "sujud" to Adam.
3-1315 and 1649 are both talking about GOD s will and purpose not about the creations obedience or disobedience.
4- You are mixing up GOD s will and free will.I read every word you have written in this thread and I found your knowledge of Qoran poor and hasty, I am sorry to say.
All there is left to say to you is you are entitled to your free will of staying put with your contradiction.
I have been where you are before, my challenge to Qoran with many contradictions failed . In fact I found my arguments built on false knowledge, men s interpretations and assumptions.
My study of Qoran at the moment is ongoing.
Your choice and decision.
GOD bless you.
Peace.Out of curiosity, did your challenge happened on this forum?
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can you please cut it, prostrating/sjd is not the same as being obedient,
Uh-oh here you are starting to slip up,
o?be?di?ent
/bdnt,bdnt/
adjective
adjective obedient
complying or willing to comply with orders or requests; submissive to another's will.
"she was totally obedient to him"synonyms compliant, acquiescent, tractable, amenable;
Siin-Jiim-Dal = lowly, humble, submissive, worship, adore, prostrate,
make obeisance, lower/bend oneself down towards the ground, lower
the head, to salute/honour/magnify, to pay respect,I never said anything about metaphors or comparing. I'm just saying shadows are mentioned in the previous verse.
agreed
come on now Ju5 you are losing steam.
Maybe it's time for you to switch subjects!
There was a reason why Iblis didn't yield to Adam.
I don't know but why do i have a feeling that this sounds like that Iblis was a racist towards us humans Noon?
1526 And We did certainly create man from black mud to follow a path.
1533 He said, "Never would I acquiesce to a human whom You created
to establish the law from black mud."And til this day racism is one of the worlds greatest problems!
peace
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That is some nice smoke and chit chat, care to give me a little sentence to briefly explain to me why those verses arn't contradictory?
Brothers noon and GL have explained you already there is no contradiction in Quran. It is people who look for contradiction. A believer should pray like this
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"Our Lord, let not our hearts deviate after You have guided us and grant us from Yourself mercy. Indeed, You are the Bestower.
You are not a truly honest believer, as if you were, you would give me a simple explanation to help me reconsider the qur'an and be saved. But i guess typing a sentence is harder than typing what you did.
My words can never be better than the words of the Creator. If His words could not guide you then trust me my words will do nothing. As a person I could only convey the message but getting guidance is solely in your hands. The messenger is with you in the form of the Quran. See the beauty of our Lords words
1715
Whoever is guided is only guided for his soul. And whoever errs only errs against it. And no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. And never would We punish until We sent a messenger.
If a party is distorting the qur'an, it is clearly quranists from this forum. The proof = everyone has a different hypothesis.
Whoever open the Quran will get guidance depending upon his mental state and capability. Thats why I come to this forum, to learn from other's understanding and then accepting what goes in line with the Quran.
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It is He who has sent down to you, the Book; in it are verses precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others similar. As for those in whose hearts is deviation , they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation. And no one presently knows its interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.
Salaam
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That is some nice smoke and chit chat, care to give me a little sentence to briefly explain to me why those verses arn't contradictory?
Rule #1 There is no contradiction in my holy book (ie Quran, Bible, Torah, Mein Kampf, Marduk's Law etc..)
Rule #2 If there's a contradiction please lookup rule #1.By definition of God = The ultimate reality, ultimate planner and controller of all universes.
THEN
God who get angry = Frustrated God, not in control of everything
Things can disobey God = God is not all powerful, God is not the ultimate planner and controller of all universes..Is definitely a contradiction by common sense...
But hey.. remember rule#2 above... you MUST NOT said it as such... just hush hush keep it to yourselves..
Otherwise God will get angry and torture you for all eternity..I encountered the same thing as above in China, People Republic of China (PRC), it goes as follow.
PRC = Communist Country
Private Enterprises, Stock Exchange = Capitalist Economy
Capitalist = EVIL / BAD
Communist = GOOD
PRC is GOOD because PRC is a Communist country.
Even though Private Enterprises and Stock Exchange thriving in PRC, PRC is still a communist country
Those who dare to SAY that PRC is a Capitalist country are EVIL/BAD and ENEMY OF THE PEOPLE and must be "RE-EDUCATED" and PUNISHED.There are many contradictions in the holy books, but you MUST NOT say it as such because there is no contradiction in the holy books.
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Go on jafar, first bring evidence on what contradicts in Qoran, then claim the book has contradictions, or which book/s are you talking about.
If you have something interesting/to add on the topic of the thread, then bring it to the table.Even if you have something else about Qoran on a different topic, open another thread and start the discussion.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
