Muhammad not mentioned in the Koran...
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Greetings Ali Omar,
Thanks for your reply?
If you don?t mind, I would like to know what do you consider to be the qualities of a Messenger and what do you consider to be the qualities of a Prophet.
The qualities of each is determined by the context in which it is used.
Do you have a specific example that you are thinking about??
Thanks?
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is it just me or is it impossible to get a straight answer out of this guy, even for a simple definition?
No, it's not just you. As I have experienced myself, Apple Pie is an unfair debater who likes to sidetrack people into debating other stuff and shifting goalposts.
Everybody here can see that Apple Pie's exegesis has nonexistent credibility. Apple Pie is not going to convince anybody into being a Jesus idolizer here by doing so.
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Dear Apple Pie,
As I understand that you have a very good understanding of the matter at hand, and therefore most probably have worked through examples from various contexts, I would appreciate it very much if you would be so kind as to enlighten me further, by giving me one of your examples.
Regds,
Ali Omar
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Greetings Ali Omar,
I think that a prime example was just covered here?
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=45271#45271
Thanks?
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Peace be upon you Apple Pie,
First of all, yes, the Koran is indeed 99% rehashed and retranslated Biblical material.
This is unimpeachable.
Secondly, do you even understand what the Holy Bible is?.? Besides being the main source for the Koran?
The Holy Bible is rehashed fromn the books of ancient Kemet(Egypt), filled with "ressurections" and "virgin births", etc. The story of Moses is the story of Gilgimesh.
This reading(quran) states that it is a CONFIRMATION of what came before it.
Actually , I'll probably start another thread for this.
Regarding "muhammad". its not a person in history, all of these stories are pointing to all of us, to our lives and spiritual processes. Thats what all the "religious books" intend. Yet those who join SECTS want to fight and argue about "my book is the best", "your book is a copy", etc. Why not focus on tyhe messsages they all contain, because to argue about quran being a copy of bible is foolish when the bible can be attacked just as easily.
be SECT free and concentrate on the message of Peace and Unity, that would be best.
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Greeting idolfree1,
Thanks for your reply?
Peace be upon you Apple Pie,
Quote
First of all, yes, the Koran is indeed 99% rehashed and retranslated Biblical material.This is unimpeachable.
Secondly, do you even understand what the Holy Bible is?.? Besides being the main source for the Koran?
The Holy Bible is rehashed fromn the books of ancient Kemet(Egypt), filled with "ressurections" and "virgin births", etc. The story of Moses is the story of Gilgimesh.
Start a thread with your assertions?
This reading(quran) states that it is a CONFIRMATION of what came before it.
Then you will have no problem with it confirming that Jesus is God Almighty?
Actually , I'll probably start another thread for this.
Regarding "muhammad". its not a person in history, all of these stories are pointing to all of us, to our lives and spiritual processes. Thats what all the "religious books" intend. Yet those who join SECTS want to fight and argue about "my book is the best", "your book is a copy", etc. Why not focus on tyhe messsages they all contain, because to argue about quran being a copy of bible is foolish when the bible can be attacked just as easily.
The authors who penned the Koranic text (as we know it today) proclaimed hundreds of times that they merely copied and collected the previous Jewish and Christian scriptures.
Muslims will deny this until they are blue in the face?
be SECT free and concentrate on the message of Peace and Unity, that would be best.
Then let?s both concentrate on the FACT that both of our Holy Books proclaim that Jesus is God Almighty?
Thanks?
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Salaam Apple,
Then let?s both concentrate on the FACT that both of our Holy Books proclaim that Jesus is God Almighty?
The Bible does not. I've been waiting for months for you to respond to my thread in the Christianity section. Will you head over there that we may discuss this? Jesus is the servant. Besides that you are making "God" a personal name when it is not such a thing in the Bible.
But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.
Joe
P.S. Don't respond to me here. Go to the thread in the Christianity section.
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Been there...done that....Joe... wink
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Dear Apple Pie,
Forgive me for being slow to catch on, but in the link you suggested I do not find any qualities of a prophet.
I am very sorry to trouble you again, but would you please be so kind as to clarify the last part of my question
What do you consider to be the qualities of a Messenger and what do you consider to be the qualities of a Prophet.
As I understand this must be linked to a context, could you also please give me an example?
Regds,
Ali Omar
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Peace be upon you APple Pie,
Please read my greeting again, as this is the state of being that we seek.
Start a thread with your assertions?
I'll wait a bit to start a whole thread on it, it looks like you are having trouble asnwering basic question from your own physicl book idol (yes, books can be idols as well) based on your responses to Nabi.
Have you read the story of Ausar and Auset (Osirus and Isis)? if not , they include "virgin birth" of a "savior" for starters.
Jesus says in the book you follow, "why callest me good, there is none good but GOD"
It is really up to you though, it always is. You have t o make the decision to take an unbiased look at the info you are getting. Do more studying of more ancient texts, like the story of Gilgamesh which is the original "flood" story.
Quote
This reading(quran) states that it is a CONFIRMATION of what came before it.Then you will have no problem with it confirming that Jesus is God Almighty?
I don't know anyone named Jesus, so how could I bear witness to something like that? That would be like me bearing witness that you are a college professor. I don't know you and have never met you, so how could I possibly bear witness about anything I "heard' about you? Further, how could I bear witness to that which is not logical in the order of life? Humans are part of the God, part of the creation. The God is ALL THAT THERE IS, both seen and unseen. The Supreme Presider. How can a man, limited to a time and space also encapsulate all time and space? He cant, therefore he submits to the One God, and he CALLS OUT (prayer) to this One God, as the story of Jesus states he did, often alone in the woods.
Quote
Actually , I'll probably start another thread for this.Regarding "muhammad". its not a person in history, all of these stories are pointing to all of us, to our lives and spiritual processes. Thats what all the "religious books" intend. Yet those who join SECTS want to fight and argue about "my book is the best", "your book is a copy", etc. Why not focus on tyhe messsages they all contain, because to argue about quran being a copy of bible is foolish when the bible can be attacked just as easily.
The authors who penned the Koranic text (as we know it today) proclaimed hundreds of times that they merely copied and collected the previous Jewish and Christian scriptures.
Muslims will deny this until they are blue in the face?
The word "muslim is not a title, humans who are peaceful submitters will only deny that which is not logical according to the God's verifyable laws. All else is subjective , and can be argued until death, likle the argument of hot vs cold, which when made objective (i.e. 55 degrees) can be decided and agreed upon.
Jesus represents the Will ("Heru" in the story of Ausar, or "Horus" in greek version) which is born of the "virgin" (from within) to help us transcend the animal nature. Thats why the Bible says "get ye behind me satan", the animal must be BEHIND YOU, not leading you. Satan is described by many to have horns, tail, and hoofs, this again speaks of the animal nature in MAN, not just one man named Jesus.
Anyway, there is no statement that Jesus is God in any of the Books being referred to in this post.
Quote
be SECT free and concentrate on the message of Peace and Unity, that would be best.Then let?s both concentrate on the FACT that both of our Holy Books proclaim that Jesus is God Almighty?
Lets stop arguing something we cannot prove (hot vs. cold). If you see the metaphoric meaning, birth of the Will which is the WAY to God, then we can verify in life if these stories do in fact guide mankind to the state of Peace we are looking for, not trying to make others belive blindly about a man 2000 years ago (55 degrees).
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Greetings Ali Omar,
Thanks for your reply..
Forgive me for being slow to catch on, but in the link you suggested I do not find any qualities of a prophet.
Correct.
Some Muslims think that it does?which only goes to show that people will read into the ayahs that which they want to see?
I am very sorry to trouble you again, but would you please be so kind as to clarify the last part of my question
What do you consider to be the qualities of a Messenger and what do you consider to be the qualities of a Prophet.
Let?s review some Biblical definitions for Messenger
From the OT?
H4397
mal'ak
BDB Definition- messenger, representative
1a) messenger
1b) angel
1c) the theophanic angel
Part of Speech noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong?s Number from an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy
Same Word by TWOT Number 1068a
H4397
mal'ak
mal-awk'
From an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically of God, that is, an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher) - ambassador, angel, king, messenger.From the NT?
G32
aggelos
Thayer Definition- a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God
Part of Speech noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer?s/Strong?s Number from aggello (to bring tidings)
Citing in TDNT 174, 12
G32
aggelos
ang'-el-os
From aggello (probably derived from G71; compare G34; to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an ?angel?; by implication a pastor - angel, messenger.Hence, from the classic definitions alone, I would say that the overwhelming evidence points to a ?messenger? as being an angel?thus being sent by God.
Let?s review some Biblical definitions for Prophet
From the OT?
H5030
naby'
BDB Definition- spokesman, speaker, prophet
1a) prophet
1b) false prophet
1c) heathen prophet
Part of Speech noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong?s Number from H5012
Same Word by TWOT Number 1277a
H5030
naby'
naw-bee'
From H5012; a prophet or (generally) inspired man - prophecy, that prophesy, prophet.H5012
naba'
naw-baw'
A primitive root; to prophesy, that is, speak (or sing) by inspiration (in prediction or simple discourse) - prophesy (-ing) make self a prophet.H5012
naba'
BDB Definition- to prophesy
1a) (Niphal)
1a1) to prophesy
1a1a) under influence of divine spirit
1a1b) of false prophets
1b) (Hithpael)
1b1) to prophesy
1b1a) under influence of divine spirit
1b1b) of false prophets
Part of Speech verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong?s Number a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number 1277
From the NT?
G4396
prophetes
Thayer Definition- in Greek writings, an interpreter of oracles or of other hidden things
- one who, moved by the Spirit of God and hence his organ or spokesman, solemnly declares to men what he has received by inspiration, especially concerning future events, and in particular such as relate to the cause and kingdom of God and to human salvation
2a) the OT prophets, having foretold the kingdom, deeds and death, of Jesus the Messiah.
2b) of John the Baptist, the herald of Jesus the Messiah
2c) of the illustrious prophet, the Jews expected before the advent of the Messiah
2d) the Messiah
2e) of men filled with the Spirit of God, who by God?s authority and command in words of weight pleads the cause of God and urges salvation of men
2f) of prophets that appeared in the apostolic age among Christians
2f1) they are associated with the apostles
2f2) they discerned and did what is best for the Christian cause, foretelling certain future events. (Act_1127)
2f3) in the religious assemblies of the Christians, they were moved by the Holy Spirit to speak, having power to instruct, comfort, encourage, rebuke, convict, and stimulate, their hearers - a poet (because poets were believed to sing under divine inspiration)
3a) of Epimenides (Tit_112)
Part of Speech noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer?s/Strong?s Number from a compound of G4253 and G5346
Citing in TDNT 6781, 952
G4396
prophetes
prof-ay'-tace
From a compound of G4253 and G5346; a foreteller (?prophet?); by analogy an inspired speaker; by extension a poet - prophet.Hence, from the classic definitions alone, I would say that the overwhelming evidence points to a ?prophet? as being a man?thus being inspired by the Holy Spirit.
As I understand this must be linked to a context, could you also please give me an example?
From the Holy Bible or the Koran?.?
Take care?
- messenger, representative
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Greetings idolfree1,
Thanks for your reply?
Quote
Start a thread with your assertions?
I'll wait a bit to start a whole thread on it, it looks like you are having trouble asnwering basic question from your own physicl book idol (yes, books can be idols as well) based on your responses to Nabi.
Have you read the story of Ausar and Auset (Osirus and Isis)? if not , they include "virgin birth" of a "savior" for starters.
Be sure to show the original languages in your thread?
Jesus says in the book you follow, "why callest me good, there is none good but GOD"
Yes?.an acknowledgement that He is indeed God.
Context please?
It is really up to you though, it always is. You have t o make the decision to take an unbiased look at the info you are getting. Do more studying of more ancient texts, like the story of Gilgamesh which is the original "flood" story.
Please be sure to include the Epic of Gilgamesh.
We will see which version has the original.
Make sure that you also include the corrupted Koranic version, as well?
Manage? a trio?as it were?
Quote
Quote
Actually , I'll probably start another thread for this.Regarding "muhammad". its not a person in history, all of these stories are pointing to all of us, to our lives and spiritual processes. Thats what all the "religious books" intend. Yet those who join SECTS want to fight and argue about "my book is the best", "your book is a copy", etc. Why not focus on tyhe messsages they all contain, because to argue about quran being a copy of bible is foolish when the bible can be attacked just as easily.
The authors who penned the Koranic text (as we know it today) proclaimed hundreds of times that they merely copied and collected the previous Jewish and Christian scriptures.
Muslims will deny this until they are blue in the face?
The word "muslim is not a title, humans who are peaceful submitters will only deny that which is not logical according to the God's verifyable laws. All else is subjective , and can be argued until death, likle the argument of hot vs cold, which when made objective (i.e. 55 degrees) can be decided and agreed upon.
Jesus represents the Will ("Heru" in the story of Ausar, or "Horus" in greek version) which is born of the "virgin" (from within) to help us transcend the animal nature. Thats why the Bible says "get ye behind me satan", the animal must be BEHIND YOU, not leading you. Satan is described by many to have horns, tail, and hoofs, this again speaks of the animal nature in MAN, not just one man named Jesus.
The beast is indeed mankind.
This is stated in the Holy Bible and carried over by the authors of the Koran?
Thanks?
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Dear Apple Pie,
Thank you for your elaboration.
From your references to the Bible I understand that a messenger is an angel, whereas a prophet is a man inspired by the Holy Spirit.
According to this, it is then incorrect to state that Jesus was a messenger or a prophet as I fail to see how he could both be God and at the same time be sent by God, or inspired by the Holy Spirit.
However, there seem to be some disagreement in the Bible, for instance in Mark 6, Matt. 13 among others.
According to Mark 6.4 Jesus said "Only in his hometown, among his relatives and in his own house is a prophet without honor."; obviously referring to himself.So, Jesus says that he is a prophet and therefore, not God, because a prophet, according to your findings, is a man inspired by the Holy Spirit.
However you also seem to state that Jesus was God.
I can not get this to tally, was Jesus God or was he sent by God and inspired by the Holy Spirit, who, together with Jesus and God, is God?I am sorry, but I seem to go from being uncertain to being confused.
Maybe, if you could please put this all into a context from both the Bible and the Koran it would become clearer.
Regds
Ali Omar
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Greetings Ali Omar,
Thanks for your reply?
Dear Apple Pie,
Thank you for your elaboration.
From your references to the Bible I understand that a messenger is an angel, whereas a prophet is a man inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Then we are in general agreement with the classical Biblical definitions for ?messenger? and ?prophet??
Now that we have a grasp of the Biblical definitions, we now need to get a grasp of the Koranic definitions for both of these terms.
Please bring forth your understanding of the classic Arabic for these two terms?such as I have already done for the Holy Bible?so that we can see exactly how Islam?s ?prophet? stacks-up?
According to this, it is then incorrect to state that Jesus was a messenger or a prophet as I fail to see how he could both be God and at the same time be sent by God, or inspired by the Holy Spirit.
If you cast doubt on this, then you would also be casting doubt upon the Koran?
However, there seem to be some disagreement in the Bible, for instance in Mark 6, Matt. 13 among others.
According to Mark 6.4 Jesus said "Only in his hometown, among his relatives and in his own house is a prophet without honor."; obviously referring to himself.So, Jesus says that he is a prophet and therefore, not God, because a prophet, according to your findings, is a man inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Jesus has many attributes.
Examination of His attributes informs us of the complete picture of who He is.
Why do you choose to isolate one attribute from all of the others?.?
However you also seem to state that Jesus was God.
First of all, the operative words would be ?is God???not ?was God??..
Secondly, it is not I who states this, but the Holy Bible and the Koran.
I can not get this to tally, was Jesus God or was he sent by God and inspired by the Holy Spirit, who, together with Jesus and God, is God?
I am sorry, but I seem to go from being uncertain to being confused.
Maybe, if you could please put this all into a context from both the Bible and the Koran it would become clearer.
Regds
Ali Omar
The Creator God of the Universe, the entity who created time itself, is not limited by time.
Hence, why is it difficult to grasp that He would reveal Himself to His creation as a Uniplural entity that is not bound by the same four dimensions that we are?
Once you come to this realization, then it becomes perfectly clear that the God, revealed to us in the Biblical scriptures, is the true Creator God of the Universe?..and is demonstrating that He is unbound by time itself?
The Biblical God is in stark contrast to the ?god? of Islam, and all man-made religions, who attempt to pigeon-hole their ?god? or ?gods? into the four dimensions that humans can experience?
Thanks?
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Dear Apple Pie,
AP
Now that we have a grasp of the Biblical definitions, we now need to get a grasp of the Koranic definitions for both of these terms.AO
Why?AO
According to this, it is then incorrect to state that Jesus was a messenger or a prophet as I fail to see how he could both be God and at the same time be sent by God, or inspired by the Holy Spirit.AP
If you cast doubt on this, then you would also be casting doubt upon the Koran?AO
My dear, I do not cast anything on anything, I simply refer to your findings from the Bible.AP
Jesus has many attributes.Examination of His attributes informs us of the complete picture of who He is.
Why do you choose to isolate one attribute from all of the others?.?
AO
Excellent comment!
I simply refer to your statements, and compare them to what Jesus allegedly says in the Bible.Was/is he a prophet, i.e. a man, four dimensional, inspired by the Holy Spirit or was/is he not?
AO
However you also seem to state that Jesus was God.AP
First of all, the operative words would be ?is God???not ?was God??..Secondly, it is not I who states this, but the Holy Bible and the Koran.
AO
OK, is God, was prophet.
I understand that the Bible, according to you is stating this, but I can not find this statement in the Qur?an.AP
The Creator God of the Universe, the entity who created time itself, is not limited by time.Hence, why is it difficult to grasp that He would reveal Himself to His creation as a Uniplural entity that is not bound by the same four dimensions that we are?
AO
God is timeless, agreed.
However God did not specifically create what we call time, but as all creations have a beginning and an end, time is our concept to understand this. Time, therefore only seem to exist for God?s creations.I also fully agree that God is not bound by any of our dimensions.
Now, here is something that I have problems with.
God is almighty, all-knowing. Mistakes are not possible for God.
Let us therefore recapitulate part of what we know, or think we knowGod created everything, also man. But, as he was running short of material, or maybe he forgot the formula, he used a rib bone from man to create a partner, woman. BIG MISTAKE! This woman tricked man into something that God could not possibly have foreseen???.eh??..but God was all-knowing!?!? Well, anyway, the man and the woman were kicked out of Paradise, as a result.
Things continued to get worse and at last God got so fed-up that he sent a part of himself, in the shape of a man who was inspired by the Holy Spirit, to shoulder all the sins of the World, against himself, through his own death. But, of course, as this man was God at the same time, he became alive again, and went back to wherever God is.Now it became easier for humans, they had a manly figure to worship, bound by all dimensions, instead of an unseen God. And, unlike before, it doesn?t cut it if you believe in God only, you must also believe in Jesus and the Holy Spirit ??.eh??.. but those three are really God, so if you believe in God you believe in all three!?!? But, still, you can skip this, believe in Jesus being God, and all is well!!!
And I have been lured into thinking that God is Almighty! But, wait a minute, it is still claimed that he is.Well, I again must fully agree with you, the biblical god is really in stark contrast to the God of Islam. The biblical god has shown himself as a four-dimensional figure, unlike the God of the Qur?an who is not bound by any dimensions, but is above all that.
I think I stick to this one, unless proven wrong, it is simpler.Best regards
Ali Omar
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Greetings Ali Omar,
Thanks for your reply?
Dear Apple Pie,
AP
Now that we have a grasp of the Biblical definitions, we now need to get a grasp of the Koranic definitions for both of these terms.AO
Why?Since this thread is about Islam?s ?prophet?, would it not be prudent to understand the Arabic that supposedly describes him?.?
From your reply, we can surmise two things
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You don?t know the definitions of the classic Arabic words ?messenger? & ?prophet?.
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Or?.you are content to use the classic Biblical definitions to judge what the Koran states.
AO
According to this, it is then incorrect to state that Jesus was a messenger or a prophet as I fail to see how he could both be God and at the same time be sent by God, or inspired by the Holy Spirit.AP
If you cast doubt on this, then you would also be casting doubt upon the Koran?AO
My dear, I do not cast anything on anything, I simply refer to your findings from the Bible.Actually you have cast doubt upon what the Holy Bible states by stating that you ?fail to see how he could both be God and at the same time be sent by God, or inspired by the Holy Spirit.?
You acknowledge that the Holy Bible states these things?.however your limited paradigm of the god of Islam does not allow you to comprehend an entity that transcends time itself.
AP
Jesus has many attributes.Examination of His attributes informs us of the complete picture of who He is.
Why do you choose to isolate one attribute from all of the others?.?
AO
Excellent comment!
I simply refer to your statements, and compare them to what Jesus allegedly says in the Bible.Was/is he a prophet, i.e. a man, four dimensional, inspired by the Holy Spirit or was/is he not?
Jesus is God in the flesh.
This is only one attribute of the ONE uniplural God.
AO
However you also seem to state that Jesus was God.AP
First of all, the operative words would be ?is God???not ?was God??..Secondly, it is not I who states this, but the Holy Bible and the Koran.
AO
OK, is God, was prophet.
I understand that the Bible, according to you is stating this, but I can not find this statement in the Qur?an.The Koran is completely saturated with the deity of Jesus.
Here is one small example
First and Last, Koran (571-4)
First and Last, Book of Revelation (19-20, 27-8, 2212-21)
First and Last, Koran
Praised/glorified to Allah what is in the skies/space and the earth/Planet Earth, and He is the glorious/mighty, the wise/judicious. For Him (is) the skies'/space's and the earth's/Planet Earth's ownership/kingdom, He revives/makes alive, and He makes die, and He is on every thing capable/able. He is the first/beginning and the last/end, and the apparent/visible, and the hidden/inside, and He is with every thing knowledgeable. He is who created the skies/space and the earth/Planet Earth in six days/times, then He aimed/tended to on the throne, He knows what enters/penetrates in the earth/Planet Earth, and what gets out/emerges from it, and what descends from the sky/space, and what ascends/climbs in it, and He is with you wherever you were, and Allah (is) with what you make/do seeing/ knowing. (571-4)
First and Last, Book of Revelation
I, even your brother John, and co-sharer in the affliction, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, came to be in the island being called Patmos because of the Word of God, and because of the witness of Jesus Christ. I came to be in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, saying, I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last; also, What you see, write in a scroll, and send to the seven assemblies of Asia to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea. And I turned to see the voice which spoke with me. And having turned, I saw seven golden lampstands, and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, having been clothed to the feet, and having been girded with a golden girdle at the breasts. And the hairs of His head were white as white wool, as snow, and His eyes as a flame of fire; and His feet like burnished brass having been fired in a furnace; and His voice as a sound of many waters; and having in His right hand seven stars; and a sharp, two-edged sword proceeding out of His mouth, and His face shining as the sun in its power. And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet, as dead. And He put His right hand on me, saying to me, Do not fear. I am the First and the Last, and the Living One; and I became dead; and, behold, I am living forever and ever. Amen. And I have the keys to hell, and of death. Write what things you saw, and what things are, and what things are about to occur after these things. The mystery of the seven stars which you saw on My right, and the seven golden lampstands the seven stars are angels of the seven assemblies, and the seven lampstands you saw are seven assemblies. (Rev 19-20)
The one who has an ear, hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. To the one overcoming, I will give to him to eat of the Tree of Life which is in the midst of the Paradise of God. And to the angel of the assembly of Smyrna, write These things says the First and the Last, Who became dead, and lived (Rev 27-8 )
And, behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each as his work is. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, the First and the Last. Blessed are the ones doing His commands, that their authority will be over the Tree of Life, and by the gates they may enter into the city. But outside are the dogs and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and everyone loving a lie, and making it. I, Jesus, sent My angel to testify these things to you over the assemblies. I am the Root and Offspring of David, the bright and morning Star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come! And the one hearing, let him say, Come! And the one thirsting, let him come; and the one desiring, let him take of the water of life freely. For I testify together with everyone hearing the Words of the prophecy of this Book, if anyone adds to these things, God will add upon him the plagues having been written in this Book. And if anyone takes away from the Words of the Book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and of the things having been written in this Book. The One testifying these things says, Yes, I am coming quickly. Amen. Yes, come, Lord Jesus! The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with all of you. Amen. (Rev 2212-21)
Summary
- Who is the First & the Last?...Revelation, Jesus?Koran, Allah
- Notice that Jesus States that He is the ?First & the Last? THREE separate times BEFORE integrating it in THREE different ways in 2213
- Allah has aligned his ?deity? with that of Jesus
- The Koran is stating that Jesus is God
AP
The Creator God of the Universe, the entity who created time itself, is not limited by time.Hence, why is it difficult to grasp that He would reveal Himself to His creation as a Uniplural entity that is not bound by the same four dimensions that we are?
AO
God is timeless, agreed.
However God did not specifically create what we call time, but as all creations have a beginning and an end, time is our concept to understand this. Time, therefore only seem to exist for God?s creations.You have just entered a circular argument.
If God created all things then He would have also had to have created time.
Special and General relativity tell us that time is associated with mass. Hence, anything with mass (i.e. the Universe and everything in it with mass, will experience time because it contains mass).
I also fully agree that God is not bound by any of our dimensions.
Now, here is something that I have problems with.
God is almighty, all-knowing. Mistakes are not possible for God.
Let us therefore recapitulate part of what we know, or think we knowGod created everything, also man. But, as he was running short of material, or maybe he forgot the formula, he used a rib bone from man to create a partner, woman. BIG MISTAKE! This woman tricked man into something that God could not possibly have foreseen???.eh??..but God was all-knowing!?!? Well, anyway, the man and the woman were kicked out of Paradise, as a result.
Things continued to get worse and at last God got so fed-up that he sent a part of himself, in the shape of a man who was inspired by the Holy Spirit, to shoulder all the sins of the World, against himself, through his own death. But, of course, as this man was God at the same time, he became alive again, and went back to wherever God is.It appears that you are sharing your biased Islamic view with us.
Unfortunately for Islam, their book of faith supports its source material, the Holy Bible?
Sura 86 should clarify this for you.
Now it became easier for humans, they had a manly figure to worship, bound by all dimensions, instead of an unseen God. And, unlike before, it doesn?t cut it if you believe in God only, you must also believe in Jesus and the Holy Spirit ??.eh??.. but those three are really God, so if you believe in God you believe in all three!?!? But, still, you can skip this, believe in Jesus being God, and all is well!!!
It appears that you also are shouldering the burden of Islam regarding the Biblical concept of the Trinity, as well.
Did you know that your Koran also proclaims the concept of the trinity??
It does?
And I have been lured into thinking that God is Almighty! But, wait a minute, it is still claimed that he is.
Well, I again must fully agree with you, the biblical god is really in stark contrast to the God of Islam. The biblical god has shown himself as a four-dimensional figure, unlike the God of the Qur?an who is not bound by any dimensions, but is above all that.
I think I stick to this one, unless proven wrong, it is simpler.Best regards
Ali Omar
I suggest that you study your book of faith in the Arabic in which it was first translated from Biblical Hebrew and Greek ? instead of blindly following Islam.
Or?is Islam more important to you than your book of faith?..?
Think about it?
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Peace be upon you,
Doesn't the Bible say that we would do the same things Jesus did and better?
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Give us an example...