Where and what is the house? and why was it made?
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Salaam all,
It is indeed difficult to understand what God means with hajj.
I really can't grasp it!
It feel like we are only guessing and I don't like to guess, I want to know the truth and nothing but the truth )
Peace
Sis Majidah -
peace Jaxal,
I cannot recall if I have personally translated this sign. I do know it has been discussed extensively in the past though, which one can view using the excellent 'search' function at the top.
In any case, I will take a quick stab at it...
In it* are clear/manifest signs/evidences, the stance/position/status** of Abraham, and whoever enters it* is in safety/security. And to/for The God on mankind (is) the conference/symposium (at) the house/establishment, whoever can make a way*** to it*. And whoever conceals/rejects, then truly The God has no need of the beings.
*BaYT mentioned in the previous sign = house/establishment
** Arabic = maqam
*** Arabic = SaBeeLan.Hopefully, the above is self-explanatory.
Also, please reflect on 919, in which The God tells us how much importance we should place on a building.
Wakas
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peace,
I wonder why u wouldnt think its the Kabbah. But i guess one has his own understanding.
I'd be interested in your answers to the following questions
What actual evidence from Al Quran are you actually using to conclude it is the Kabbah?
Are you proposing people should be entering the Kabbah?
How would that work logistically?
What clear/manifest signs/evidences are you expecting to see in the Kabbah?
What security/safety would people attain by entering such a building?
How do you explain there is no non-Muslim sources/evidences of Abraham ever being in Mecca? (as far as I'm aware)
How do you explain there is no evidence of any prophet after Abraham (e.g. Moses, Jesus) ever being in Mecca? (as they too would have had to have made HJJ to the Kabbah)
Why then does 'al quran' call Mecca Bacca?
How do you explain the fact that the Kabbah has been destroyed and rebuilt several times? (even according to the traditionalists)
How do you explain 597?
Do traditionalists, or would you, bring offerings to the Kabbah?
How do you reconcile the traditionally known "maqam Ibrahim" which is outside the Kabbah with 397 which says "maqam Ibrahim" should be inside the Kabbah?
How do you explain Mecca AND Kabbah are unheard of (i.e. no evidence) prior to prophet Muhammad?
Plus, in 919, God is talking about the Masijid - e - Haram. NOT the Kabbah (bayat).
Well, clearly 397 also never mentions Kabbah but you still think it means Kabbah. In any case, by your above statement, can I conclude that you feel even though The God raises a mere believer above the "Holy/Sacred/Restricted Masjid", you somehow feel it would be different if it was on about the Kabbah?
Wakas
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SaLaM Wakas
A couple questions i dont understand so explain them more.
What actual evidence from Al Quran are you actually using to conclude it is the Kabbah?
My Sunni kowledge, i.e. when i was a sunni, i used to take islamic studies. Thats how. I have never seen Kabbah in real life. Just in pictures. So im not sure what kind of actual evidence you are looking for here. Or what kind of actual evidence you want me to give you. Explain this question more.
Are you proposing people should be entering the Kabbah?
I have no opinion on that. Not yet anyways.
How would that work logistically?
I dont understand this question. If this is concering the previous one, then at the moment, i have no opinion. If not, then explain this question more.
What clear/manifest signs/evidences are you expecting to see in the Kabbah?
Maqam - e - Ibrahim
What security/safety would people attain by entering such a building?
Maybe the same saftey and security we get when we are at our home. Doesnt have to be a war if thats what u were thinking.
How do you explain there is no non-Muslim sources/evidences of Abraham ever being in Mecca? (as far as I'm aware)
I couldnt care less if there wasnt.
How do you explain there is no evidence of any prophet after Abraham (e.g. Moses, Jesus) ever being in Mecca? (as they too would have had to have made HJJ to the Kabbah)
1.2 billion muslims. Not all will go to Kabbah. In any case, its a duty with a condition. We have to be able to do it. For example, if a person cant afford to go , then God wont hold him/her responsible. Maybe Jesus couldnt do it.
Why then does 'al quran' call Mecca Bacca?
Mecca is what it is called now. Just like Iraq.
How do you explain the fact that the Kabbah has been destroyed and rebuilt several times? (even according to the traditionalists)
I cant. What does this has to do with Hajj?
How do you explain 597?
What do u want me to explain in that verse?
Do traditionalists, or would you, bring offerings to the Kabbah?
I hope you are not calling me a traditionalist. It is my understanding, that the offering would be to feed the people. Back in Abu Dhabi, we used to give food and water and juice to the mosque, so those people who cannot afford to have food to open thier fast , can come to the mosque. Plus, giving food in general so the people can enjoy it, is a good thing. I have no problem with that.
How do you reconcile the traditionally known "maqam Ibrahim" which is outside the Kabbah with 397 which says "maqam Ibrahim" should be inside the Kabbah?
Why would u think its INSIDE the kabbah?
How do you explain Mecca AND Kabbah are unheard of (i.e. no evidence) prior to prophet Muhammad?
That is not true. People were comming to Kabbah even before Prophet Muhammad was born.
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peace,
To make communication easier, I will number the questions.
- What actual evidence from Al Quran are you actually using to conclude it is the Kabbah?
...what kind of actual evidence you want me to give you. Explain this question more.
I am looking for evidence from Al Quran. Please read the question carefully.
- Are you proposing people should be entering the Kabbah?
I have no opinion on that. Not yet anyways.
YOU are the one who quoted 397 from 'The Message' and stated YOU believe its on about the Kabbah. So lets review your chosen translation
In it (the Kabbah) are clear signs, the station of Abraham, and whoever enters it (the Kabbah) will be secure. And God is owed from mankind to make pilgrimage to the Shrine (the Kabbah), whoever can make a path to it (the Kabbah). And whoever rejects, then God has no need of the worlds.
(I have corrected your translation, added in bold)
This directly implies YOU believe people should enter the Kabbah. Thus YOU do/did have an opinion of it.
- How would that work logistically?
I dont understand this question. If this is concering the previous one, then at the moment, i have no opinion.
It is linked to the previous question, and apparently you do/did have an opinion on it.
- What clear/manifest signs/evidences are you expecting to see in the Kabbah?
Maqam - e - Ibrahim
Thanks for stating the obvious, but what is maqam -e-Ibrahim, according to you?
- What security/safety would people attain by entering such a building?
Maybe the same saftey and security we get when we are at our home. Doesnt have to be a war if thats what u were thinking.
You maybe onto something here, but a little off in my opinion. I was not thinking of war.
- How do you explain there is no non-Muslim sources/evidences of Abraham ever being in Mecca? (as far as I'm aware)
I couldnt care less if there wasnt.
Dont you find that amazing? One of the most revered characters in the region, yet nothing about him being in Mecca. If you do not care about evidence, this can lead to baseless conjecture, and surely the conjecture is no substitute for the truth.
If you rely soley on Muslim sources then you are forced to rely on the same traditional stories that you have come to reject/distrust.- How do you explain there is no evidence of any prophet after Abraham (e.g. Moses, Jesus) ever being in Mecca? (as they too would have had to have made HJJ to the Kabbah)
1.2 billion muslims. Not all will go to Kabbah. In any case, its a duty with a condition. We have to be able to do it. For example, if a person cant afford to go , then God wont hold him/her responsible. Maybe Jesus couldnt do it.
Maybe? Like I said conjecture is no substitute for the truth.
8 ) Why then does 'al quran' call Mecca Bacca?
Mecca is what it is called now. Just like Iraq.
So what you're saying is a land filled with Muslims called it other than what The God called it? Interesting.
- How do you explain the fact that the Kabbah has been destroyed and rebuilt several times? (even according to the traditionalists)
I cant. What does this has to do with Hajj?
Well, clearly HJJ has to do with the Kabbah in your understanding, thus if it has been destroyed and re-built several times, how special can it be to The God? This question also has ramifications for the safety/security question, as since it has been destroyed several times, there would have been times (when it was destroyed) when statements in 'al quran' would have been false (i.e. whoever enters it will be safe).
Furthermore, since it has been rebuilt, then clearly it is not the Kabbah that Abraham built.- How do you explain 597?
What do u want me to explain in that verse?
Please re-read the thread I directed you to several times, and choose a translation of 597 you agree with so we can discuss it.
- Do traditionalists, or would you, bring offerings to the Kabbah?
I hope you are not calling me a traditionalist. It is my understanding, that the offering would be to feed the people...
I assume you learned about HJJ in your "Islamic studies"? If so, do the traditionalists bring food to the Kabbah or not?
I was not calling you a traditionalist, hence the differentiation in my question. In any case, a traditionalist is someone who bases the bulk of their beliefs/evidences on tradition.- How do you reconcile the traditionally known "maqam Ibrahim" which is outside the Kabbah with 397 which says "maqam Ibrahim" should be inside the Kabbah?
Why would u think its INSIDE the kabbah?
YOU are the one who quoted 397 and said YOU believe it is on about the Kabbah, thus this directly implies YOU believe the 'maqam Ibrahim' is inside the Kabbah.
- How do you explain Mecca AND Kabbah are unheard of (i.e. no evidence) prior to prophet Muhammad?
That is not true. People were comming to Kabbah even before Prophet Muhammad was born.
Please bring forth actual evidence with actual references. Preferably, not hadith/stories.
Wakas
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SaLaM Wakas
Maybe i should have been clear as well. When i say explain the question more, i dont mean number them. Numbering the question wont explain the question.
1] Read verse 22.26, 2.125, 2.127, 3.96 and 5.97.
2] Wrong. Its doesnt imply nothing of that sort. To go to a classroom, one needs to enter the school. God calls Kabbah the sacred house. Common sense tells God cannot declare a house SACRED/RESTRICTED and then ask people to enter it. You dont know my opinions so dont try to guess.
3] Wrong. You assumed that i had a certain opinion which was wrong. Dont assume or guess.
4] Your question required the obvious answer. It is exactly what it says it is, Maqam-E-Ibrahim or STATION OF IBRAHIM in english.
5] Tell me more about what you think. Maybe we can work on it together.
6] If i want to learn about Moses, i will read the Torah and look up the jewish resources. If i want to learn about Jesus, i will look up the Bible and the christian resources. If i want to learn about Pluto, i will look at the Encyclopedia of Space. Hence if i want to learn about Prophet Muhammad, i will look up the Quran and the muslim resources. Common sense and the most logical action.
7] Read 3.97 carefully without letting any personel feeling clouding ur concentration.
8] What i meant to say is that, this is the name they have decided to keep. You will have to ask them why they did that.
9] Destroyed several times? Do u have proof of this? To my knowledge, it was simply restored with restoration taking place to the original structure. Unless you can show me some proof that it was completely destroyed, its all ur opinion.
10] The verse clear to me. I dont know what ur conflict is with that verse. so discuss whatever it is that is bothering you. I will try and help you.
11] Yes. People used to bring food to the Kabbah to feed the poor.
12] Again, dont assume i have a certain opinion. I dont believe Maqam-E-Ibrahim is inside the Kabbah.
13] This is hilarious. Do u want me to bring u pictures of people going to the Kabbah before Prophet Muhammad? What ACTUAL proof are u looking for? Be CLEAR. Read the history of the area. You will find out. That how i found out. Kabbah COULD NOT have been unheard of. The reason being is that Ibrahim built it. And Ibrahim was there before the time of Prophet Muhammad. So If u need a logical proof, then there you go.
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peace,
At this point I would normally point out inconsistancies, contradictions and point out how you never answered some of my points, but I dont feel it would get me anywhere.
I think our exchange is effective as it is. People can read it and make up their own minds.
Wakas
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SaLaM Wakas
If i havent answer any of ur points, then it wasnt intentional. But i would like it if you do continue this. Obviously we dont agree here. Lets work on it, and if we see that its not going anywhere, then i will happily back off. But i would like it if you did show where i was inconsistant, contradictive or missed ur questions.
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Godbless,
But we have to look at the Koran in its greater sense. Ka'bah can mean 'great glory' or 'great honor' and reading the verses with the word Ka'bah in it in this way gives it greater meaning and shows us that the ka'bah mentioned in the Koran has nothing to do with pilgrimage. Secondly the Koran doesn't specify which 'cube' to make pilgrimage to when we look at the meaning of ka'bah as 'cube' so we have no reason to make pilgrimage to any cube in Makkah over a cube in Korea or Jerusalem or Turkey, or even in America. That is why we shouldn't be looking at it as 'the cube' but in its meaning as 'great honor, glory or fame.'
Taking that into mind making pilgrimage to God's houses (Baitullah), common holy houses (al-baitul haraam) that we would view as holy places of hommage and worship (al-masjidul-haraam) to hold a common activity-filled convention (al-'umrah), getting to know each other (al-arafaat), establishing contacts (attawalluw), giving each other recognition(al-arafaat), motivating each other(Irbaat), teaching each other and empowering ( tadreesul-kitaab wa attawalluw) blessing and benefiting through God's will (Asawlaat bainanaa bi-idhnilaah) for the betterment (azakaat) of each other is the perfect thing for this community (ummah).
Don't ya'll see? This is the right path, the upstanding one (asiraatul-mustaqeem) this is apart of the upright system, the upright practice, the upright philosophy, the upright religion (adeenul-qayyim).
Godbless,
ProGod -
Salam progod
Reading 5.97 clearly says Kabbah is a sacred house. Same sacred house Ibrahim built.
TheNabi, I just dont understand how it could be metaphorical. As i said yo progod, Quran cleary tells Kabbah is a sacred house. A sacred house built by Ibrahim. But i respect other people's belief http//www.geocities.com/bigjaxal/s1.gif
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Peace Jaxal,
Salam progod
Reading 5.97 clearly says Kabbah is a sacred house. Same sacred house Ibrahim built.
TheNabi, I just dont understand how it could be metaphorical. As i said yo progod, Quran cleary tells Kabbah is a sacred house. A sacred house built by Ibrahim. But i respect other people's belief http//www.geocities.com/bigjaxal/s1.gif
Perhaps the following link can be helpful and further add to your knowledge www.aididsafar.com
Click on the pdf link (in English) on the bottom left side and read on. Let us know your thoughts. -
Salaam all,
I have think about one thing and pondering alot so I have to tell it .
Think if Ibrahim didn't build a physical house!? Maybe God want to show us the way Ibrahim built his path or his system or what you will call it.
So maybe sacred house is allegoric, just think that thought!
Peace
Sis Majidah -
Peace be upon you Majidah,
Your getting warmer
This is a message of instruction, a message designed to CHANGE BEHAVIOR.
We are told to "face the qiblah" no matter where we are, this is about proper character, not some piece of rock. wink
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Salaam Br Kyle,
Yeah, I knew I had right.
Because my thought was Ibrahim smashed the idols and God advice us to look at Ibrahim as a guideline in Quran.
But if we see today all the so called muslims have insert the idols again by praying to a building and so on.
I mean it's so obvious, if you open your eyes.
Peace
Sis Majidah
