Where and what is the house? and why was it made?
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Peace upon you,
We know that most hadiths are sayings of the Prophet Muhammad.
Woah, there Cowboy! We know this? We actually really know that no Hadeeth can be reliably traced back to Muhammad. As a historical text the Hadeeths should have been authenticated a little better. But it is very hard to authenticate rumor.
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And from wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards the restricted Temple; it is the truth from your Lord; and God is not unaware of what you do.Reading the arabic verse, we can clearly see it says 'masjid' and not 'Temple' as it is in the FM translation. Four other translations agree with this. The current Kabbah which is in Saudia Arabia, fits this description. It is forbidden. Is it masjid? I would call it that but then again, i associate masjid with 2 minars and a crecent moon. But that put aside, i cannot deny that THIS is where God is asking me to turn to.
Ahh, we are getting to base of your misunderstanding. The word Masjid existed before Muhammad was ever born. It referred to Churches, Synagous and other places of worship. So it is better translated as Temple in the context of the Koran. Remember that the religion of Islam is a phenomenon that came after the Koran, but all of the words that the Koran uses are pre-Islamic. Masjid in old Classical Arabic is synonymous with 'ma'bad' in Modern Arabic, because sajada in Classical Arabic means both to prostrate and to worship. Now it primarily means to prostrate because of the predominance of the Muslim concept of prayer. But that concept didn't exist with the parents of Muhammad or with Muhammad. It meant both things and in that day bowing was worshiping, and worshiping was bowing. &abada had a meaning that had more to do with devotion, which in Modern Arabic has now changed more to what sajada used to be.
It is natural that the people in that area made the pilgrimage to the old Masjid of the traditionalist Arabs and that Koranist made pilgrimage to it also once it was devoted completely to God. With the myths that the Cube in that Mosque was built by Abraham of course it would serve as a great example that would go along with the story in the Koran. But none of that meant that that was to be the only place to make pilgrmage to. Muhammad wouldn't have known better about the Abraham myth, and all the people had to do was consult the Jews if they wanted a real opinion about if it was built by Abraham.
In addition to that you have to understand that saying al-masjidul-haraam in Arabic is like saying attaqsuljameelu, or better yet 'al-faslul-haadi'. that is to say, just like in some cases in English, saying The Holy Temple is more like saying Holy Temples, that is what al-masjidul-haraam can mean also in Classical Arabic. Attaqsul-Jameel= The beautiful weather/Beautiful weather and al-faslul-haadi'= The calm season or Calm Seasons.
Even leaving that aside and comming back to Prophet Muhammad. Prophet Muhammad's job was to not just send the Quran, but to explain it too. Agree?
No I don't agree. His job was just to expose it to the people, it was never to explain it. It was the job of the people to think on it and God to explain it through logic and understanding.
A few possibiltes might be
1] People werent making the pilgrimage back then. I KNOW this is not true.
2] Prophet Muhammad didnt know back then. I find this to be untrue as well.
3] People were doing it right, but when the Prophet died, people strayed from the path. Maybe?
4] The scholors changed it all for their own benifit. What benifet that is, God knows. You seem to beleive this.How do you explain that the Prophet has not once mentioned that there was something wrong with the way pilgrimage wsa being performed?
All that we have aside from the Koran about what Muhammad said is from the Hadeeth and is all a product of rumor. So it is not very likely that we will get anything, let alone things like this from the Hadeeth. Remember all of the cultural things that were going on after Muhammad died and that this uniting religious force that Muhammad brought with him in the form of the Koran was reshaped into a competing religion with Judaism and Christianity and ovetaken by the culture of Arab traditions, Jewish tradition and Persian Traditions.
It was nothing wrong in making pilgrimage to this place adn it is not that they were mistaken, what was wrong was making this the only place to which a Koranist is to make pilgrimage and misunderstanding that the Koran was setting an example with the story of Abraham about the places of worship that are supposed to be built and that pilgrimage is to be made to them, respectively with all their different localities. Remember, it is not righteousness that you direct yourself to the east or the west because to God belongs all places in the east and the west.
Godbless,
ProGod -
SaLaM progod
Woah, there Cowboy! We know this? We actually really know that no Hadeeth can be reliably traced back to Muhammad. As a historical text the Hadeeths should have been authenticated a little better. But it is very hard to authenticate rumor.
Brother i share your enthusiasm about the baseless hadiths. What i am trying to say is that the whole concept of following hadiths is that they are the sayings of the prophet. No matter what i think of the hadiths, i cannot deny knowing what i leart from past that some of the hadiths do agree with the Quran. I simply choose to follow the scriptures of God rather than a saying of a man. But leaving that point, the fact is, we simply dont find anything in the hadiths about this subject.
Ahh, we are getting to base of your misunderstanding. The word Masjid existed before Muhammad was ever born. It referred to Churches, Synagous and other places of worship. So it is better translated as Temple in the context of the Koran. Remember that the religion of Islam is a phenomenon that came after the Koran, but all of the words that the Koran uses are pre-Islamic. Masjid in old Classical Arabic is synonymous with 'ma'bad' in Modern Arabic, because sajada in Classical Arabic means both to prostrate and to worship. Now it primarily means to prostrate because of the predominance of the Muslim concept of prayer. But that concept didn't exist with the parents of Muhammad or with Muhammad. It meant both things and in that day bowing was worshiping, and worshiping was bowing. &abada had a meaning that had more to do with devotion, which in Modern Arabic has now changed more to what sajada used to be.
Agreed )
It is natural that the people in that area made the pilgrimage to the old Masjid of the traditionalist Arabs and that Koranist made pilgrimage to it also once it was devoted completely to God. With the myths that the Cube in that Mosque was built by Abraham of course it would serve as a great example that would go along with the story in the Koran. But none of that meant that that was to be the only place to make pilgrmage to. Muhammad wouldn't have known better about the Abraham myth, and all the people had to do was consult the Jews if they wanted a real opinion about if it was built by Abraham.
Disagreed. If this was the case that the kabbah was a myth. When the Quran was revealed to the prophet, dont you think he would have made an attempt to clear up the matter? There is no evidence what so ever that the prophet tried to do such a thing which proves that nothing was being done wrong in the first place. I dont mean worshipping the idols. I mean making the pilgrimage to the Kabbah. And why consult the jews when there is a prophet and a messenger among them?
No I don't agree. His job was just to expose it to the people, it was never to explain it. It was the job of the people to think on it and God to explain it through logic and understanding.
Sorry brother, but i dont agree. Here is a verse fromt he Quran
O people of the Scripture, Our messenger has come to clarify for you after a lack of messengers; so that you cannot say "No bearer of good news or warner has come to us;" for a bearer of good news and a warner has come to you; and God is capable of all things.
The messenger would have clarified if the people were in error about this. I dont find any evidence of that.
Remember all of the cultural things that were going on after Muhammad died and that this uniting religious force that Muhammad brought with him in the form of the Koran was reshaped into a competing religion with Judaism and Christianity and ovetaken by the culture of Arab traditions, Jewish tradition and Persian Traditions.
Even tho that is a valid argument, why would people intentionally make the pilgrimage to a wrong place???? Say for example, for the sake of the argument, that the prophet DID clarify this matter. Ok, so the kabbah which is makkah right now is not the place. Why would the people ignore that? Why??? literally EVERYONE would have decided to ignore this and go back to their old ways. Do you think that is a possibility?
Remember, it is not righteousness that you direct yourself to the east or the west because to God belongs all places in the east and the west.
Its not only rightous, but also a command from Allah the most merciful.
And from wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards the restricted Temple; it is the truth from your Lord; and God is not unaware of what you do.
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God bless,
The word used in 519 is yubayyin. It does not mean to clarify in the sense of explain, which is tafseer or ta'weel. It means more 'to expose', or to make something 'open and plain in sight.' It can be metaphorically understood as 'explain' but that is not what it means, especially when taking into account all of the other passages that say that the messengers' only duty is to deliver the message.
Disagreed. If this was the case that the kabbah was a myth. When the Quran was revealed to the prophet, dont you think he would have made an attempt to clear up the matter? There is no evidence what so ever that the prophet tried to do such a thing which proves that nothing was being done wrong in the first place. I dont mean worshipping the idols. I mean making the pilgrimage to the Kabbah. And why consult the jews when there is a prophet and a messenger among them?
I never said that the Kabbah was a myth. Please don't misunderstand what I am saying. If the Koran says that pilgrimage should be made to Houses of God and the Kabbah qualified as that at the time then why would that Koran have to clear up that matter? I am not saying that making pilgrimage to the Kabbah is mistaken. I am saying that ONLY making pilgrimage to the Kabbah is mistaken. The qualification of the Kabbah for us to make pilgrimage to it is whether or not it is a house founded on the worship of God.
I said that that the fact that Abraham really built that Kabbah is most likely myth, seeing that Abraham in none of the books of the Bible ever visited that area. Even if it can be proven that he did the scriptures before have him making many Houses of God in other areas. What would make this one house of God more special than the other. The Bible has him building a place of worship actually called beth El or baitullah.
Even tho that is a valid argument, why would people intentionally make the pilgrimage to a wrong place???? Say for example, for the sake of the argument, that the prophet DID clarify this matter. Ok, so the kabbah which is makkah right now is not the place. Why would the people ignore that? Why??? literally EVERYONE would have decided to ignore this and go back to their old ways. Do you think that is a possibility?
I never said that pilgrimage to the Kabbah is the wrong pilgrimage. I am saying that it has always been the case that one can make pilgrimage to other places other than the Kabbah, if they are houses of God. The Kabbah only qualifies as a place of pilgrimage because it was a house founded on God (idols aside) and a big one at that.
Its not only rightous, but also a command from Allah the most merciful.
And from wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards the restricted Temple; it is the truth from your Lord; and God is not unaware of what you do.
Don't you see the message behind this?
Godbless,
ProGod -
Salaam Progod,
Lol that wasn't what I meant at all.
I meant that Quran is all I need to know about my faith in God and His Way.
All other books in the library for example is of course also valuable but for other reasons.
I think all who write a book give something to his fellow brothers and sisters.
And we judge what we read and cannot blame others if we have understood something wrong.
Please don't burn down our libraries!!!
Peace Sis Maria
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Salaam Progod,
Well if u found something for your spiritual needs in other books then be my guest to use it.
But we are individuell responsible for everything we say and do.
Peace sis Maria
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Peace Anwar,
Even if those books had something to do with the spiritual world
Anwar, i'll gladly trade all my books on the 'spiritual world' for your command of Arabic.
I used to be a big fan of self-development, new age, philosophy and so on but after realising the al-haqq of al-quraan, those books became rather pale in comparison to it.
Sure you can read books about the spiritual world, but ultimately, you have to go back to al-furqaan for clarification on the matter. Philosophy is another thing. We have more than 2000 years of Western philosophy but even now they cannot grasp the whole picture. 20th century philosophy became even more divergent from al-haqq when it opposed metaphysics the foundation of imaan (bil ghaib, that is). I guess what im saying is, its no big loss if my own library burns down as long as my qurans, all translations, dictionaries and notes remain intact.
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SaLaM Progod
If the Koran says that pilgrimage should be made to Houses of God and the Kabbah qualified as that at the time then why would that Koran have to clear up that matter?
So we finally agree that pilgrimage to the Kabbah in the time of the Prophet Muhammad was the right thing.
The qualification of the Kabbah for us to make pilgrimage to it is whether or not it is a house founded on the worship of God.
And do we agree that the Kabbah as founded on the worship of God?
I said that that the fact that Abraham really built that Kabbah is most likely myth, seeing that Abraham in none of the books of the Bible ever visited that area.
I am not supprised. Gospel is about Isa and not Ibrahim. Just like not much is mentioned about the whereabouts of Isa in the Quran.
Even if it can be proven that he did the scriptures before have him making many Houses of God in other areas.
But there is only ONE house where God asks us to make the pilgrimage.
The first Shrine established for the people is the one in Bakk'a, blessed, and a guidance for the worlds.
In it are clear signs, the station of Abraham, and whoever enters it will be secure. And God is owed from mankind to pilgrim to the Shrine, whoever can make a path to it. And whoever rejects, then God has no need of the worlds.
I never said that pilgrimage to the Kabbah is the wrong pilgrimage. I am saying that it has always been the case that one can make pilgrimage to other places other than the Kabbah, if they are houses of God. The Kabbah only qualifies as a place of pilgrimage because it was a house founded on God (idols aside) and a big one at that.
Yes but that is the only house where God is asking us to make the pilgrimage. The above 2 verses show that.
Don't you see the message behind this?
I do brother. Its pretty clear.
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Okay,
Jaxal, you are either intentionally not understanding what I'm saying or you really don't. After all I've written I think it is the first. But let's see how it goes from what I say below before I make a judgement.
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I said that that the fact that Abraham really built that Kabbah is most likely myth, seeing that Abraham in none of the books of the Bible ever visited that area.I am not supprised. Gospel is about Isa and not Ibrahim. Just like not much is mentioned about the whereabouts of Isa in the Quran
I'm talking about the Old testament, not the Gospel. Bible does not equal Gospel, the gospel is only one part, and the smallest part of the Bible.You should give it a read sometime, but that's up to you. It's very interesting though.
But there is only ONE house where God asks us to make the pilgrimage.
The first Shrine established for the people is the one in Bakk'a, blessed, and a guidance for the worlds.
In it are clear signs, the station of Abraham, and whoever enters it will be secure. And God is owed from mankind to pilgrim to the Shrine, whoever can make a path to it. And whoever rejects, then God has no need of the worlds.
I did explain to you that there is no proof that Bakkah is Makkah? And secondly, that Bakkah has other meanings that allow this passage to not be talking about a particular place. bibakkah can mean ' in a cut above others' or ' of superior rank.'
Secondly 'awwala baitin' can mean 'primary or best of any house' as well as 'first of any house' and 'wudi&a' doesn't have to be in past tense. and it can mean ' that may be established.'
Do you understand what I mean when I mention this Arabic? If you are not understanding my point it might be because you don't understand the Arabic. If that is the case and you have to know for your own, with all due respect, learn. I'll be happy to teach you what I know about Classical Arabic, but you can also self teach. I'm a little advanced when it comes to this stuff please don't take my tone as intimidating or just reject me because you are intimidated or envious of what i know. That is not the Koranic way.
That passage doesn't really support you because you have to rely on the opinion of a hadeeth, and the opinion of the masses which depend on this hadeeth, to affirm that bakkah equals makkah. And bakkah can mean other things in that passage that have nothing to do with a particular place.
Yes but that is the only house where God is asking us to make the pilgrimage. The above 2 verses show that.
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Don't you see the message behind this?I do brother. Its pretty clear.
The above two verses don't show that, my dear brother. . . if after what I've done my best to explain to you you still don't get it, then maybe the message isn't that clear to you.
Godbless,
ProGod -
SaLaM Progod
Thanks brother for keeping your patience with me. You are starting to make sense. If what you say is right, then i HAVE to question you to make sure that it IS the truth and not your opinion before i can remotely consider it to be accpted as a part of my belief. In all your post, you have made some excellent points. Dont think that i am ignoring them or simply dont understand. On the contrary, i do. And it makes me happy that we have a brother here who has excellent knowledge of the Quran. Not envious or intimidated. Rather, proud. http//www.geocities.com/bigjaxal/s1.gif
I will take my time in re-evaluating this belief of mine. I know you understand. So inshallah i will post when i reach a conclusion. Ok brother?