Where and what is the house? and why was it made?
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Salaamun alaikum,
If we follow solely what al-quraan tells us, there's no link at all between bakkah and makka. Bakkah is mentioned once and so is makkah and they aren't linked textually.
Al-quraan doesn't even tell us that al-bait/the house was in makkah at any point.
Perhaps if we went back to the point of al-quraan , which is guidance for humankind, it can tell us the point of mentioning these names. Anwar did a great job teasing out the meanings and I think he's fairly accurate.
To me, 'awwala baitin' (the so-called 'first house) set up for humankind is the one with bakka (bi-bakka, not fee/in bakka). 'Awwala baitin' is the essential house, the universal example of god's system and it was 'built' with bakkah (tears, grief, breaking of the neck).
that makes much more sense to me and its relevant to all human life.
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SaLaM Salikah and mquran
Again, this has nothing to do with the hadiths at all what so ever.
Of course, the people in modern day Mecca undoubtedly believe that there was a name change as this is what the Arab Scholars have wanted everyone to believe for centuries on end.
I cant even believe you said that. That is just amazing. Are you saying the whole of saudia arabia is lieing? That the whole of Saudia Arabia made this thing up? Why???? This is amazing. First they build a cube to validate a verse from Allah. Then they carve footprints to valiadate another verse from Allah. And now, they make up the names to throw people of the truth????????? I mean, am i the only one here who things thats being a bit paranoid???
Of course, the people in modern day Mecca undoubtedly believe that there was a name change as this is what the Arab Scholars have wanted everyone to believe for centuries on end.
Well see. Thats the problem. God says the House was built in Bakkah. Bakkah is what they call now Makkah. But ofcourse thats the arab consiracy.
God tells us that Prophet Ibrahim builds a Sacred House / Shrine. But again, ofcourse, thats an arab conspiracy
God told us that we OWE him a pilgrimage to this Sacred House / Shrine that Prophet Ibrahim built. But again, ofcourse, this whole thing is a conspiracy.
So whats not a conspiracy. Ok maybe Prophet Ibrahim built a "Mental State" in a place called Bakkah. No head or tail on how people will visit this imaginary "Mental State" that God says we OWE him. But yes, this is by far the only possible explaination that doesnt invlove any conspiracy what so ever.
Well you know, there is a Place called Makkah which was also called Bakkah. No sorry thats a conspiracy.
Ok, What about the House / Shrine that Prophet Ibrahim built there? No, sorry, thats a conspiracy too.
Hmmm.. And the Pilgrimage? Well, thats a money making scam that the Saudis came up with.Right.
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Peace be upon you Jaxal,
You have to unlearn all these concepts that were taught to us so that we can see things more objectively. Be patient with it and try to adress some of the questions asked to you if only to yourself.
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SaLaM Idolfree1
I have answered every question that as asked. If i missed a question then it was completely unintentional. Maybe im having googly eyes, but plz ask them again so i can answer you. And brother, maybe those teachings werent wrong. I dont follow hadiths. I agree there are some hadiths which are correct, but yet i dont follow them. Even i dont see how going roung and roung the kabbah and crying on it will please God. So i dont believe in it. As i said, if i have a chance to go to the pilgrimage, i will sit in the corner and just devoute myself to God.
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Salaamun alaikum,
SalikahI thought that was well said
.Thanks
I cant even believe you said that. That is just amazing. Are you saying the whole of saudia arabia is lieing? That the whole of Saudia Arabia made this thing up? Why???? This is amazing. First they build a cube to validate a verse from Allah. Then they carve footprints to valiadate another verse from Allah. And now, they make up the names to throw people of the truth????????? I mean, am i the only one here who things thats being a bit paranoid???
Our starting point shouldn't be 'saudi' Arabia (who btw, have a great cheek in naming the Arabia felix after themselves!!). Our starting point should be al-quraan itself. Al-quraan describes the signs about the kaaba Allah has set the kaaba of the restricted house as PLACE OF ESTABLISHMENT FOR HUMANKIND (5/97)
Now Jaxal, lets turn our eyes towards the cube in mecca. Is it a place of establishment for humankind. Humankind cant even enter there, man, only 'muslims' can.
Well see. Thats the problem. God says the House was built in Bakkah. Bakkah is what they call now Makkah. But ofcourse thats the arab consiracy.
Not the house, but the FIRST HOUSE (3/96). And what PEOPLE call anything isn't our criteria. Al-quraan is. Christians call themselves 'believers' and call muslims 'infidels'. Does that mean we judge Christians as 'believers' mentioned in al-quraan ? No. We judge by CHARACTERISTICS, brother.
So whats not a conspiracy. Ok maybe Prophet Ibrahim built a "Mental State" in a place called Bakkah. No head or tail on how people will visit this imaginary "Mental State" that God says we OWE him. But yes, this is by far the only possible explaination that doesnt invlove any conspiracy what so ever.
I don't think a mental state is where it ends although that's where it begins. I think God's system was established all right. But to say its in MECCA, that's a whole other thing. 3/97 tells us 'whoever enters the position of ibrahim, becomes safe' . You can ask the pilgrims in mecca just how safe it is (it's not).
As i said, if i have a chance to go to the pilgrimage, i will sit in the corner and just devoute myself to God.
I don't mind doing that either, but i'd call it meditation. Devotion to god is doing his good works, in my understanding.
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Peace Jaxal,
Thanks for responding.
I believe that mquran explained things well, so I will not repeat. However, I will address your concerns regarding the plausibility of a "conspiracy". First of all, "conspiracy" is a term that is completely subjective to perspective. So what you and I call "conspiracy", others in power will call history or reality or truth. Governments wordwide do not fabricate lies or embellish the truth with the intent to "conspire" or deceive people for deceiving sake, but to keep themselves and their systems in power. For example
The United States has fooled the entire world that democracy (majority rule) and capitalism (exploitation) somehow means equality and the pursuit of happiness. The result governments and peope all over the world will bend over backwards to invite globalists into their land in order to extract and exploit resources for a payment of something that is, in reality, worthless (I'm talking about money, of course). The deception and the exploitation are neccessary for our system to survive, regardless of whether we consider it a "conspiracy" or not.
Peace.
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Peace be upon you,
Good post Salikah.
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SaLaM Salikah and mquran and idolfree
Humankind cant even enter there, man, only 'muslims' can.
Why should non-muslims and disbelievers enter? And in any case, Those are laws imposed by humans. Not God. So that argument doesnt works.
You can ask the pilgrims in mecca just how safe it is (it's not).
My mother has been there twice. She says its very safe.
We judge by CHARACTERISTICS, brother.
Ok but still why wont you believe the people of the who have been living in that country for gnerations? Maybe hadiths are lieing about this, but now that people are also a part of this conspiracy? WTF! EVERYONE is a part of this conspiracy!!?!
So what you and I call "conspiracy", others in power will call history or reality or truth.
Salikah my dear sis, i was referring to an article given to me by progod where the a funny claim was being made that this whole thing is a conspiracy.
Guys, your best argument is that
A] ITs a mental state
OR
B] ITs a conspiracy.
Lollllllllllllllllll. I mean, i swear im not tryin to offend any of you here. I see you all as my brothers and sisters. But still, you havent given me anything to support your claim. The verses you are giving clearly say something else than what you are saying.
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Salaam Jaxal,
Why should non-muslims and disbelievers enter? And in any case, Those are laws imposed by humans. Not God. So that argument doesnt works.
The Hajj is mean for HUMANKIND (22/27) not just believers, muslims. And once they are called ,God says they will go (22/28 ) in order to witness benefits for them. Please read 22/27-28 carefully, brother.
My mother has been there twice. She says its very safe.
Mine was molested there.
Ok but still why wont you believe the people of the who have been living in that country for gnerations? Maybe hadiths are lieing about this, but now that people are also a part of this conspiracy? WTF! EVERYONE is a part of this conspiracy!!?!
I'd rather believe God, thank you. The people over there have an invented religion and they can keep it. Allah has , as usual, cut to the chase and there's no way the hajj in mecca can ever impersonate the Quranic hajj.
Lollllllllllllllllll. I mean, i swear im not tryin to offend any of you here. I see you all as my brothers and sisters. But still, you havent given me anything to support your claim. The verses you are giving clearly say something else than what you are saying.
The onus of proof that the hajj should be in mecca and what the hajj is on you because you allege those things without quranic evidence. So far, you have not deigned to use A SINGLE VERSE to prove your point.
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What i mean to say is, thre is nothing in those verses that contradicts what i am saying. It only re-afirms it
Jaxal, please read 22/27, its for MANKIND, not Muslims, however the sunnis definition is. Trying having a name like Gary Miller and enter mecca without a 'conversion' letter and you'll see what sunni pan-racism is.
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SaLaM mquran
Brother i have read it. ANd i also understand what you are saying. But what you are saying is that becoz a kafir government has laid its own understanding of the law around the Sacred House, it can only mean that what the Quran is saying is wrong. You are right. ITs ridiculous to have a name like that and not being able to enter Makkah. I agree with you. But if you were hungry and i held a gun to ur head and said , move and ill shoot you. You would die of hunger coz you wont move. ITs SUCH a lousy example. I know. But what im saying is that YOU are not wrong in not being able to move or YOU are not wrong in not being able to visit Kabbah. But it is ME / the saudi government who is wrong to hold you from doing it.
I hope you understand.
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Jaxal,
First I did not claim any conspiracy. Second you make an interesting point. You say in one of your posts that Abraham built a shrine for the people. Then you point to the passage that says that 'the first shrine built for people is that in Bekkah.' Firstly, as Mquran points out 'bibakkata' means 'with Bakkata.' However, I will not make much out of this because there are other examples in Arabic where 'bi' is used interchangeable with 'fee,' and vice-versa. However, the real issue is 'the first shrine.' Do you really believe that the shrine that Abraham built is the first shrine ever built for people? Don't you think that is a little illogical, especially since we know that there were plenty of shrines built for people before Abraham was even born. So even if we believe that the first shrine built for people was built in a place called Bakkah, Abraham could not have built it.
Secondly, it is not that all of Saudi Arabia is lying, they believe that because that is what their scholars say and the scholars believe it from the hadeeth that says that. All of Saudi Arabia believes alot of things that are not true about their own history. And there is no real evidence that links the word bakkah with makkah. Can you actually remedy this? Or is that you want to believe that the place of pilgrimage is in Makkah, Saudi Arabia?
If you do, that is fine and I will respect that. But the Koran does not say that we are to make pilgrimage to any place called Makkah, and making pilgrimages to any 'cube' is not really the point of what the Koran is talking about. Ka'bah as 'great honor/glory' makes more sense.
What the Koran says is that Abraham built up God's house, that is a house of God, and invited the people to make pilgrimage to it. And we are supposed to take his example, build up houses of God and invite people to make pilgrimage to it. Not to be in competition with each other but as place of convention where God's loyalists come, get to know (&arafaat) each other and engage in other activities (&umrah) that have to do with bettering(Zakaat) our community and blessing (Salaat) each other.
And that the best (awwal can also mean best) house built for the people is one that will be with great honor/glory (bil-ka&bata) with guidance . . ."
Also Mquran you should know that 'bakkah' comes from 'baa, kaf, kaf' and doesn't have anything to do with crying that is 'baa, kaf, yaa.' And for bakkat to mean 'breaking the neck' it has to be 'bakkatu &unuqin, and means 'to crush the neck' it can't be transfered into an American/English idiom such as 'breaking one's neck doing work.'
Godbless,
ProGod -
SaLaM progod
No brother i didnt mean to say that YOU were spreading a conspiracy. I was reffering to the pdf file you asked me to download and read.
So even if we believe that the first shrine built for people was built in a place called Bakkah, Abraham could not have built it.
But brother, this is not what God says. God is very clear about it.
Secondly, it is not that all of Saudi Arabia is lying, they believe that because that is what their scholars say and the scholars believe it from the hadeeth that says that. All of Saudi Arabia believes alot of things that are not true about their own history. And there is no real evidence that links the word bakkah with makkah. Can you actually remedy this? Or is that you want to believe that the place of pilgrimage is in Makkah, Saudi Arabia?
Brother to be completely honest wiht you, i have been researching this. The most sound explaination i read was that Bakkah was like a province and Makkah was a city. But even forgoing this, people who have grown old in that place and say that it was called bakkah before and now its called makkah. Brother, how can that be a something from the hadeeth. The person lived in that place for generations. THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE SAYING.
This is what the Quran is saying very clearly
1] Prophet Ibrahim built the Sacred House / Shrine.
2] It was built in Bakkah.
3] God is telling humankind that WE owe Him a pilgrimage to this Sacred House / Shrine which Prophet Ibrahim built.It couldnt have been a mental state or an example for us to follow. We know where it was build. And we know what to do with it.
Don't you think that is a little illogical, especially since we know that there were plenty of shrines built for people before Abraham was even born
Brother i am only concerned with theh shrine which God is talking about in the Quran built by Prophet Ibrahim.
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Salaam all,
I must say that even if I have read those verses about Abraham and shrine and Bakka many times over and over again I can't get it as we should make a pilgrimage to only one special place on earth and that would be the place there abraham built the shrine.
When I have in mind that Abraham was the first one who really became an monotheist, then I get striked that he is an example for the humanbeings to follow in his footsteps.
We shall also build up safe places and invite people to join us in our community there we practise the way of God through His reading Al-Quran.
This sounds a far more logic to me than to travel around the earth to visit a place there they commit idolworshipping.
Peace
Sis Majidah