Where and what is the house? and why was it made?
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SaLaM mquran
I have given verses from the Quran on the last 3 pages. So i dont know why you would say that i havent given even one verse. And the only reason you are having trouble accepting that Kabbah is in Makkah / Bakkah becoz you think this whole thing is a conspiracy. Simply becoz it doesnt say on some kind of paper that Bakkah is now called Makkah, you dont want to believe it. Thats not evidence. Thats just your opinion. I can respect your opinion contrary to what ever you and joe might think of me. But to argue with an opinion is just wrong. People who have been living there for genertions say that it was called bakkah and now its called makkah and you dont believe them. You think they are under some kind of a spell from the scholors. I mean DAMN! Lolllllllllllll
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I have given verses from the Quran on the last 3 pages. So i dont know why you would say that i havent given even one verse. And the only reason you are having trouble accepting that Kabbah is in Makkah / Bakkah becoz you think this whole thing is a conspiracy. Simply becoz it doesnt say on some kind of paper that Bakkah is now called Makkah, you dont want to believe it. Thats not evidence. Thats just your opinion. I can respect your opinion contrary to what ever you and joe might think of me. But to argue with an opinion is just wrong. People who have been living there for genertions say that it was called bakkah and now its called makkah and you dont believe them. You think they are under some kind of a spell from the scholors. I mean DAMN! Lolllllllllllll
If im opining, I must be opining that non-sunnis,shias or any other 'islamic' sectarians (i.e. all other human beings) aren't human, because your shrine in mecca ISN'T A RESORT FOR MANKIND. And of course you don't need the Quran to say it, the Quran is of hardly any importance to you.
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SaLaM mquran
Simply saying that the Shrine / Sacred House is not in Makkah, wont do. You need to bring evidence brother. EVIDENCE!!!!! Now, i have brought mine from the Quran. Where is yours? And i dont want to hear
ITS A FREAKING CONSPIRACY!!!
or
INOVATIONS AND LIES OF THE SCHOLARS!!!!!!!
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Simply saying that the Shrine / Sacred House is not in Makkah, wont do. You need to bring evidence brother. EVIDENCE!!!!! Now, i have brought mine from the Quran. Where is yours? And i dont want to hear
It seems you CAN'T hear at all so I will repeat myself once more before I leave this discussion
al-bait in the quran has a set of characteristics (being a resort for mankind and a safe place)
the shrine in mecca DOESN'T have those characteristics
therefore it DOESN'T HAVE al-bait there.
these arent opinions. These are existential facts. I dont rely on conspiracy theories or scholars opinions. Al-bait is described in the quran and your makkan shrine doesn't fit. Therefore, going there isn't hajj.
ok im done. peace.
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Salaam jax,
You said
So elke, i have yet to see a single argument againt the Kabbah which is nota] its all a consipracy
b] its the inovation of the scholorsPart of which would have been my answer is given by mquran
I acknowledge we need to make the hajj of the houseso as such it's not a conspiracy, it's different levels of reading. Same goes for your second argument. If this whole thing exists today - haj to mekkah, bowing to black stone aso., it's because this is the most that there is to get from many people. Same things for other religions. Why is the idea of innovation of scholars so inacceptable to you? Don't you believe that there is just one god - just one message always rewritten by the society receiving it at their own receipt - fitting their culture? Which is not always a bad thing as such - helps organise human relations.
Have a good day!Peace LK
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Salaam all,
I will also leave this discussions because it's stuck.
But i must say I'm with MQuran.
Peace
Sis Majidah -
SaLaM
mquran
You know what mquran, i dont want to say something which can be hurtful to you. But i want you to understand this. Just becoz the saudis are pigs, dont blame God or the Quran for getting the description wrong.
Elke
ITs not that i dont want to accept that its all innovation. I KNOW some of the rituals tied to the Kabbah are innovations. Like kissing the black stone. People kiss the stone becoz it is said that it will suck all the bad deeds from your soul. You will be sinless when you kiss that stone. The reason the stone is black is becoz it has sucked so many sins from people all over the world. I mean, just looking at that you can see that is BS. So i do agreee tht there is a lot of innovations. God made it so simple. Unfortunately, saudis are the pigs that are in control of Makkah. ITs is their fault. The Quran was right all along.
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Salaam sweet Br Jaxal,
You know what mquran, i dont want to say something which can be hurtful to you. But i want you to understand this. Just becoz the saudis are pigs, dont blame God or the Quran for getting the description wrong.
Please don't hurt him shock
Peace
Sis Majidah -
You know what mquran, i dont want to say something which can be hurtful to you. But i want you to understand this. Just becoz the saudis are pigs, dont blame God or the Quran for getting the description wrong.
Don't worry about the hurtful thing, Im a big boy
Did God get the description WRONG, jaxal ? If so, this is not the kind of God I want to worship. My God is knower of everthing hidden and not.
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Peace be upon you Jaxal,
People who have been living there for genertions say that it was called bakkah and now its called makkah and you dont believe them. You think they are under some kind of a spell from the scholors. I mean DAMN! Lolllllllllllll
People in U.S. , who have been living there for generations, still think Columbus discovered America.
People in Jerusulem, who have been living there for generations, think a man named Jesus died there on a cross and was resurrected.
People in Egypt, who have been living there for generations, still think a man named Moses parted the sea.
And we can go on and on, how can that be your criteria, blind faith?
The God does not shy away from allegories/similitudes, hajja is about US, not some trip to Saudi Arabia. Is that where Noah went for pilgrimmage also?
Please think about it.
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SaLaM mquran and idolfree
mquran
Brother first of all, i didnt mean it like i am going to say something hurtful to you. I will pm you with an explaination. You are like a brother to me http//www.geocities.com/bigjaxal/s1.gif
Secondly, I am not saying that God got it wrong. Im saying the government of Saudia got it wrong.
Idolfree
Brother, what you are saying is not the case in every single country.
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Brother first of all, i didnt mean it like i am going to say something hurtful to you. I will pm you with an explaination. You are like a brother to me
Secondly, I am not saying that God got it wrong. Im saying the government of Saudia got it wrong.
It's cool, man. Dont worry about it. God described the house accurately, of course. The saudis/sunnis never meant to follow it. They turned it into a racist charade which simply mocks the Quranic hajj.
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Listen,
I personally think that trying to convince Jaxal that the Kabah is not in Makkah and that is not even a place that one has to make a pilgrimage to, and that there is no place in the Koran that says that we should be making a pilgrimage to Makkah is futile. He believe that the people of Saudi Arabia and everyone else is right because this has been "known" for generations. And if they are right about this, because they have known it for generations, they are right about everything else that they believe about the Koran and Muhammad (God bless him) because they and their scholars have known it for generations and they must know what they are talking about.
Don't ya'll see? Futile conversation. He wants to believe this, so let him believe it. Why try to convince him otherwise when he wants to believe this. Don't waste your words. Jaxal, you have the right to believe that and we all have the right to disagree. Personally we all have the right to believe whatever we want to, and all this subjectivity is going to get us nowhere. Just like it has gotten us so far. A whole bunch of strong-minded opinioned people who can't even agree on their concept of God. That's why even Islam in its broken state is stronger than any group of Free-minded, reformist Islamists will every be. They can't even agree on the defintion of what they call themselves.
Godbless,
ProGod -
SaLaM progod
First of all, dont talk of me in third person coz im still here lolll. Thats just rude.
Secondly, what is so wrong in saying that everyone in saudia arabia knows it becoz its been known for generations? that is just common sense. You would rather beleive that everything is a conspiracy? You think that makes more sense? That everything is a conspiracy? Lolllll Ok. God gave u the right to beleive what ever u want to believe. I am no one to tinker with that right. But look objectively at what you are saying. If its not in Saudia Arabia, then where is? Timbuktu? Kabbah has been knwon to exist at Makkah, which was called Bakkah for generations by the people who have been living in that place for generations. Why would you argue with that? Were you there to say that its false?
So far, the best and the most sensible alternative was presented by idolfree. That its a mental state of mind. Its still better than saying that its all an arab conspiracy. Or that arabs made the Kabbah to validate a verse from the Quran or Carved foot prints in the sand. Comon man that is just ridiculous. In anycase, nothing from the Quran sujjest such a thing.
A futile argument? indeed it is when no evidence is provided.
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Salaam all,
I will also say that so far I also like Br Kyles understanding best )
Peace
Sis Majidah -
I never said there was a consipiracy, and I don't think its easier to believe in conspiracies. If you think I think that you didn't read my posts. I spoke against the conspiracy theory. Personally I just think it is a misunderstanding. A misunderstanding that God through his wording in the Koran allowed to happen, and that the hadeeth tried to explain and propogate, which is the reason why everyone has believed it for generations. What other mistaken ideas that people in Saudi Arabia believe will you take or granted fact. Don't you know that people can believe something false for generations on generations? How are you thinking?
Like I said I think it is a misunderstanding and the Islamic scholars are known for making things up. But I"m sure it is something that the noble ruling families of the Umayyads and other families and who were very Arabo-centric and nominal Muslims were glad to support.
But you are not really taking Clasical Arabic grammar into account when I gave you my explanation. But believe what you will. It matters very little to me. I could give a flying kiddy about conspiracy theories. I'm not about that Arab Consipacy book or any of that. Don't get it twisted. I mainly responded to you because you insinuated that I believe that is a conspiracy and that I'm about all that conspiracy stuff. I'm not. But I don't believe that this believe that Bakka and Makka is a mistaken idea. Also I take into account the original meanings of these words before anything.
To you, your way and to me mine (living the modern dream, right?).Godbless,
ProGod -
SaLaM progod
We can look at it two ways
1] Prophet Ibrahim built the Kabbah in Bakkah which is now called Makkah ( as i mentioned earlier, It is said that Bakkah was like a province and makkah was the actual city. OR the name is simply changed all thanks going to the saudi government.) People then started to make pilgrimage. Even at the time of the prophet people were making pilgrimage. Infact, it was one of the ways the traders made money (this is from the islamic history from my islamic class and then confirmed from a website. You can confirm it if you want to.). Even in the time of Prophet Muhammad people were doing it. At this point, i will welcome any hadiths that say that Kabbah was somewhere else. Prophet Muhammad MUST have known that this is wrong and would have tried to make it right. Agree?
OR
2] Prophet Ibrahim did not built the Kabbah at Makkah, Saudia Arabia but in Jerusalam as Layth said in his article on free-mind. And people have been doing it wrong for 1400 years. Even with the comming of Prophet Muhammad, this wasnt corrected. Or maybe the sayings of our beloved prophet was ignored by the evil scholors.
Which one would make most sense? Forget the conspiracy theory. For get the evil schemese by the scholors. Forget that people are stupid to beleive in theor own country's history. Above two points, which one would make more sense?