Where and what is the house? and why was it made?
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SaLaM
Ok, i skipped to the Seventh chapter. While reading it, immedeatly i noticed that the author is trying to assert that there is a huge consiparcy going created by the arabs. Plus, this conspiracy has not an ounce of weight to it since no proof is being provided apart from the authors own opinion.
Some of his statments are just amazing. The arabs built a house to validate a verse from God. Yea ok. Then the arabs carved foot prints to again validate a verse from God. Again, Yea ok. Why would the arabs build a house for their own purpose when God says Prophet Ibrahim built the house? God says Ibrahim built a house. Its pretty clear. Prophet Ibrahim... built... a house. A physical house. How can Prophet Ibrahim build a "metaphorical" house? That doesnt even make any sense.
Then the author goes on to assume that there can be only 2 possibilites here. Either God lives in the house. Or God doesnt lives in the house. This is, ofcourse, assuming that it was the house of God in the first place. NO WHERE in the Quran does God says its His house. God says, he premitted the building of this House. Prophet Ibrahim built this house. WE , the mankind, owe God a pilgrimage to the house. How simpler can it get. Kabbah is NOT the house of God. ITs a sacred / restricted house. Becoz God said so. If any of you dont like it, take it up with God. But dont try to make excuses of not obeying God.
I havent read the whole chapter yet. But the first few pages have shocked me enough to know what i should be expecting. More conperiacy theories. More attempts by the evil arabs to fool the world. Any proof of all this? Not a shred.
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Jaxal,
From http//www.progod.org/pilgrimage.html
Ba, kaf, kaf (and consequently Bakkat/Becca)
Pounding or crushing (al-&unuqa (on) the neck) (daqqul-&unuqa), distinguishing/ranking above others
(farraqahu, kharaqahu), jostling, pressing or crowding(crowdszahm), any crowding(or crowds), competition. (izdihaam) heaping/piling together/amassing (taraakib), super-imposition of things on top of other things (taraakim), a man/male having or the trying to have sex with a female, denial or rejection of a thing or person's dignity, to humiliate, cancellation/dissolution/breaking, being in need or being stout, muscular or rough, from activity.Whether Abraham really built a Holy place of worship or not, a house of God, could never be called Abraham's house because it then wouldn't be devoted to God. Furthermore, did he build it in Arabia like the Arabs have said or did he build it in the land of the Philistines and Canaan like the Israelites said? According to the Bible he built many houses for God all over the lands he traveled in. So should we accept the rumor of the Israelites or the rumor of the Arabs? Neither one. Why should we accept rumor when the passage that mentions the house that we should make pilgrimage to doesn't have to be read as any house that Abraham, God bless him, built or as any house particular to a certain location.
396-37 says 'inna awwala baitin wudi&a linaasi lalladhee bi bakkata mubaarakan wa hudan lil-&aalameena feehi ayaatun bayyinaatun maqaamu ibraheema wa man dakhalahu kaana aaminan wa lillahi &alaanaasi hijjul-baiti man istataa&a ilaahi sabeelan wa man kafara fa innallaaha ghaneeyun &anil-&aalameena"
This passage can be read as
" Truly the best of any house that has been placed for people will be the one with much crowding, and in a ranking above the rest (1! It is blessed with certain guidance for the nations. In such a house are clarifying words and signs, the stance of Abraham. Whoever takes his stance will be secure. For God's sake people have the duty of pilgrimage to the house; whoever has the means for it. But as for whoever rejects it, God is not in need of the nations (19)." 396
Taking what the Koran can be telling us without the help of rumor frees us from the doubt of such rumor. It might be suggested once more that based on 2226-2229 pilgrimage to the house that Abraham built for God is necessary. But if Abraham was commanded passages 26-29 then there is a problem because the house was not ancient (&ateeq) when Abraham first built it. It could be that 28-29 are the words of the narrator of the Koran, or that 27 is a command to Muhammad, which helps the rest make more sense. But I still question the superior merit of one house of God over another house of God? Doesn't the reader, also?
It is not until 22 chapters into the compilation that pilgrimage to the house that Abraham built could be being commanded. The author can see the logic and merit of Abraham's declared religion, encompassing all the undeclared (but practiced) religions of the prophets of God, being submission to and for God being over any other religion. But a house dedicated to God that Abraham built being more important than any other house truly dedicated to God? That is not just estimation.
The author will admit that he cannot dictate to God what God finds important. Perhaps a pilgrimage should be made to this house? But again, which one? The one the Arabs claim to be Abraham's construction or the many ones to be found according to the Israelites' rumor in the Bible? The Koran states that God doesn't wish for us difficulty in our religion, culture, customs and ways. To make a pilgrimage to all the houses that Abraham built in dedication to the Lord would take many resources and would be difficult indeed. Furthermore, what of the houses that no longer stand, having been long forgotten? Are we to seek these houses out to make a pilgrimage to these houses also?
Consistency in interpreting God's message should be the standard, unless the language of the message disallows consistency. Then and only then are we to deal with a new or different implication. Therefore, the author believes that the pilgrimage mentioned in Chapter 22 is the same pilgrimage first mentioned in chapters 2, 3 and all the earlier chapters, being pilgrimages to holy houses of worship, any holy house of worship, being houses of God. These are under the umbrella of 'God's house(s)' and 'holy sanctuary/ies.'
There may be many who believe their houses to be houses of God, being holy sanctuaries to them. But how can a house be a house of God when God is made equal with other things or persons, is lied about, degraded, defamed, dishonored or wholly betrayed in these houses? They are the sanctuaries of God's betrayers. Furthermore, why would God's loyal consider such houses to be sacred, or God's houses? Such houses along with the company to found within them are to be avoided. God's message instructs about the places that his loyalists are to consider sanctuaries, and the company therein. These are the houses God approves of as God's houses
Godbless,
ProGod -
SaLaM progod
Brother i would like it if you gave me a piece of your mind rather than copy past another article. But as for this article, The author is directly contradicting the article. The sacred house was built in Bekkah (3.97), THE ONLY ONE and the people owe God a pilgrimage to this sacred hOuse (3.97). Putting it any other way would be a contradiction not only against the Quran, but God too.
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SaLaM progod
Brother i think im completely misunderstanind your post. But Bakkah does not refer to a house. Or to be precise, Bakkah does not refer to the Sacred House. ITs Kabbah. Bakkah is the name of the place. Now its called Mekkah / Mecca. Bakkah is the name given to a place. It could mean rolling stones to all i care. Never the less, it is a name given to a place. Now the name is changed to Mecca / Makkah. I dont know why they did it. But there it is.
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Jaxal,
Please do me and yourself the favor of reading my article, it will make what I'm saying clearer. What I am saying is that Bakkah is not necesarily a place, Kabbah is not a place and Makkah is not a place in the Koran. These words have Classical Arabic meaning that don't have anything to do with a place. I'm not denying that that city in Saudi Arabia is called Makkah or that the cube in it is called Kabbah. The Argument that Makkah is Bakkah is hadeethic in origin and very weak, though possible. But all of these words have valid Cl. Arabic meanings that have nothing to do with that place in Arabic and allow it include that place but apply to something bigger, that is to all of God's houses, distinguised and in a rank above other houses. Also God has put in true honor and glory(al-ka'bata) the holy houses, as upstanding things for the benefit of people. As well as the holy months with its directions, including the awarding of people with marks of honor.(597)
Can you start to see the real purpose of the piligrimage?
Godbless,
ProGod -
SaLaM progod
Brother I have read the article. But this is what you are saying
Bakkah is not a real place
Makkah is not a real Place
Kabbah is not the cube mentioned in the Quran
House Of GodAnd these are the facts
Bakkah was a place
Makkah IS a place
Kabbah IS the cube in Makkah built by Prophet Ibrahim
There is no House Of GodWhat you and others are saying is that, all the places that ARE present and about whome Quran talks about, arent REALLY the places which the Quran is talking about. I mean comon, carving footprints in the sand to to validate a verse from the Quran. You honestly believe that?
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Peace be upon you respected brother Jaxal,
Lets start here and work our way backwards.
We are told o face the qibla whereever we are. Are you facing the stone cube called Kabbah right now?
Also,
(92 You, you those who trust, surely the takers of partners (with God are) impurity/contamination , so they do not approach/near the Restricted Mosque after this their year, and if you feared need/necessity/poverty, so God will/shall enrich/suffice you from His grace/favour , if He willed/wanted, that God (is) knowledgeable, wise/judicious.
Where is this physical location that automatically keeps "almushrikoona" out of it? Do you think all the people that go to the so called Hajj are following only the God?
But if we are understanding it to be a MENTAL CONDITION, we can see how this fits. The God does not change the condition of a people UNTIL they change what is within thier MINDS(nafs).
Please take time to really think about what I have stated here. It is hard to give up what we were taught, but it is necessary to view this from the proper perspective.
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Jaxal,
Bakkah is not a real place
Makkah is not a real Place
Kabbah is not the cube mentioned in the Quran
House Of GodI'm saying that 'bakkah' is not necessarily a place. I"m not denying that is a place, but there are many places in the middle east that go by the name of bakkah. Futhermore, it is in the hadeeth that the 'evidence' that bakkah means makkah. Maybe it was called bakkah but as I said there are other 'bakkah's in the middle east and they get that name for being dry valleys. Bakkah has other Classical Arabic means that need to be taken into account when reading the Koran, other meanings that should be preferred over it being the Saudi Arabian city of Makkah.
Futhermore, Makkah is a real place and that Saudi Arabian city has always been called Makkah, in the past it was known by the greeks as Maca Roba. But the word 'Makkah' has other Classical Arabic meanings. Not only do some of those meanings give the passage in the Koran that uses this word more universal meaning, but it should be preferred because the Koran states clearly that location does not matter "Righteousness is not facing the east or the west . .." That should teach us something and lead us to looking at the other valid Classical Arabic meanings of Makkah when we read it in the Koran, in particular the meaning of destruction.
It is not the Kabah is not the cube mentioned in the Koran, it is that the Koran may not mean the cube in the Saudi Arabian city of Makkah. Kabah does have the meaning of 'cube', but when we read it in the Koran, which cube. Why should we visit the cube in makkah over any other cube. Especially since the Koran never said 'Visit the cube in the city of the Arabs named Makkah.' These are all presumptions that early Muslims made. All of the Muslim rights of pilgrimage from what we know are carryovers from the traditional religion of the Arabs of Muhammad's people (God bless him) before Islam.
If under peaceful means the place where the kabah is was turned into a place for God's worship, and according to historical sentiment the Arabs left the cube which they believed to be the remnant of Abraham (God bless him) then that is fine. But honestly, the circling of Kaba is not an act of worship to God. But the word Kabah has other Classical Arabic meanings that should be understood and preferred when reading the Koran. Putting kabah's other meanings makes the passages where this word is used have more universal sense and beneficial sense for the godly community and is more in line with what the Koran says about locations and righteousness.
The Koran says 'baitullaah' or House of God. So you definitely can't say that there is no House of God.
And these are the facts
Bakkah was a place
Makkah IS a place
Kabbah IS the cube in Makkah built by Prophet Ibrahim
There is no House Of GodWhat you and others are saying is that, all the places that ARE present and about whome Quran talks about, arent REALLY the places which the Quran is talking about. I mean comon, carving footprints in the sand to to validate a verse from the Quran. You honestly believe that
That's not what I'm saying. Read it again.
Godbless,
ProGod -
SaLaM Idolfree and progod
Idolfree, when i used to pray, i did. You say that its a mental condition but how can Prophet Ibrahim "build" a mental state? Prophet Ibrahim built the Kabbah. Its in the Quran and its in the history. No matter how much i think about it, i will just never understand how Kabbah, the Sacred House, can be a mental condition when the evidence proves other wise.
Progod, how many places on earth are there, which WERE called bakkah and makkah at the same time. Where Prophet Ibrahim built the Sacred House with God's knowledge. Where God reminds people that we OWE God a pilgrimage to this Sacred House. I know of only one. Currently in Saudia Arabia. History tells it was called Bakkah and now its called Makkah. Infact, it is said that Bakkah was like a state and Makkah was a city in this state. Its all in the histroy brother.
It is not the Kabah is not the cube mentioned in the Koran, it is that the Koran may not mean the cube in the Saudi Arabian city of Makkah
Again brother, How many cubes is God talking about which were built by Prophet Ibrahim in a place called Bakkah? I know of only one. Its in Saudia Arabia. But if you can find another Kabbah which was also built by Prophet Ibrahim in a place called Bakkah, then i will happily re-evaluate my belief.
If under peaceful means the place where the kabah is was turned into a place for God's worship, and according to historical sentiment the Arabs left the cube which they believed to be the remnant of Abraham (God bless him) then that is fine.
That is how it is brother.
But honestly, the circling of Kaba is not an act of worship to God
I agree. I , so far, dont see whats the point of it. But never the less, if i went to the pilgrimage, i would just sit in a corner and devoute myself to God. Becoz its between me and God.
Putting kabah's other meanings makes the passages where this word is used have more universal sense and beneficial sense for the godly community and is more in line with what the Koran says about locations and righteousness.
Or it might be that whatever meaning or transation comes up will be wrong becoz Kabbah is the Sacred House built by Prophet Ibrahim in a place called Bakkah which is now called Makkah. Dont you think that its even a slightest possibility that you might be wrong here and that this really is what it has been for the past 1400 years? Not even a slither of a chance?
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Jaxal wrote
becoz Kabbah is the Sacred House built by Prophet Ibrahim in a place called Bakkah which is now called MakkahSalam Jaxal,
If GOD Himself had identified the location of this Kabah as Bakkah, why, in later years, did the inhabitants of this place change its name to Makkah?This would not be a clever strategy by those who control and stand most to benefit from the Kabbah, isn't it?
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Jaxal,
Where in the Koran does it say that Abraham built a cube?
And there are many other places in the middle east called Bakkah. It is a name given to dry valleys.
lastly, where in the Koran does it say that Makkah is where this cube is?
Abraham built a house of God with Ishmael in the Koran. But also in the Bible Abraham built many houses of God, one is actually called Beth-El or House of God but it is not in Saudia Arabia.
Also keept in mind that things that are 'said' usually come from the hadeeth or from the inventions of scholars.
Godbless,
ProGod -
SaLaM brother progod and adik
Adik
If GOD Himself had identified the location of this Kabah as Bakkah, why, in later years, did the inhabitants of this place change its name to Makkah?
Brother, you will have to ask the saudi government that. It boogles me why they had to do that to such a beautiful name.
progod
Where in the Koran does it say that Abraham built a cube?
And as Abraham raised the foundation of the Shrine with Ishmael "Our Lord accept this from us, You are the Hearer, the Knowledgeable."
God specifically says that Prophet Ibrahim created the Sacred House / Kabbah in Bakkah. Now lets look at it. Where would it be?
1] a dry valley
OR
2] Bakkah that is now called Makkah situatied in Saudia Arabia which is also a becon for all man kind?The first Shrine established for the people is the one in Bakk'a, blessed, and a guidance for the worlds.
Just by looking at that verse, I cannot say its some dry valley out of the middle of no where.
lastly, where in the Koran does it say that Makkah is where this cube is?
Not Makkah, but Bakkah which is now called Makkah. Why? Ask the Saudi Government. I didnt change it.
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Salaam sweet Br Jaxal,
Brother I know you have difficult to see this but it is not at all strange or impossible to built a mental place.
I believe that God's system is what ibrahim stand for, he is our forefather the first one who dropped all idols, how can you then think that we shall face this cube or travel to walk around this cube, isn't that pure idolworship? then what is????
To believe in God and uphold his system isn't to follow ridiculous rituals believe me!
Peace
Sis Majidah -
Salaam sweet Br Jaxal,
Yes I know that Quran says Bakkah but there is no proofs that it should be the place that is called Makka today.
And the mention of peace and safety and a walley with olivetrees etc is mention in Quran but does this really suit for the place Makka!?
I rather think Bakkah is a place where Ibrahim was located when he started to uphold the System from God but that doesn't have to exist today or is hidden somewhere today.
The most important thing is to uphold the system not to focus on a name or a place.
Remember alot of things in Quran is allegorical.
Peace
Sis Majidah -
SaLaM My Sweet Sweet Sister
See that is the thing. Why dont you beleive that Bakkah is now called Makkah? The people who have been living in that region say that it was called Bakkah but now its called Makkah. Thats like saying there is no evidence to say that your country is called Sweden. What kind of proof are you looking for here?
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Salaam Sweet Br Jaxal,
First i do not trust the majority of Arabs, they are lyers look so much crap they have put into the so called religion Islam.
They are idolworshippers from the beginning until today and they never seems to be better.
So why should I trust that makka is the place called Bakka in Quran!?
I think all this is a test from God to see who is the true believer in God and his system and that one who will believe in the manmade stories about God and his messengers.
Do you really like that cube brother!?
I have never wished to go there even when I was a dumb sunni, that was something telling me to dislike that place.
God is merciful to the believers
Peace
Sis Majidah
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Peace Jaxal
To my knowledge, ahadith are the strongest evidence of a supposed name change of bekkah to mekkah (mecca). And we all know about the credibility of those darn ahadith. Of course, the people in modern day Mecca undoubtedly believe that there was a name change as this is what the Arab Scholars have wanted everyone to believe for centuries on end. The Greeks also used a derivative of the word "Makkah" to refer to this city so the credibility of this assertion is quite questionable. Don't get me wrong. Its possible, but I just don't know how probable.
I, personally, entertain that Bekkah, Mekkah, and Kibla may not be places. Objectively speaking, from a translative standpoint, hajj could refer to anything from a debate to a family reunion!lol
May the God Guide us.
peace.