Where and what is the house? and why was it made?
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Very ironically (but with Jaxal, not unusually ) the Quran was not AT ALL consulted.
Even at the time of the prophet people were making pilgrimage. Infact, it was one of the ways the traders made money (this is from the islamic history from my islamic class and then confirmed from a website
How do we know any of this? From the same books which Salman Rushdie consulted when he wrote Satanic Verses. The very same books which Jochen Katz (arch anti-islamist) says all Muslim must believe in.
I guess the Quran is too vague and needs more detail, huh Jaxal?
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SaLaM mquran
Ok, i will really simplify it for your understanding.
If the kabbah is indeed in the wrong place, can you bring me any hadith from the prophet which mentions this?. Or are u saying that no one every made a pilgrimage until the death of Prophet Muhammad? Like people were waiting for him to die so they can make the pilgrimage. And if they are wrong, then atleast the prophet is not around to nag them about it. Hmm?
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Salaam Br Jaxal,
You know that MQ not follow or trust hadiths so I doubt that he will look into the hadiths to find some answers.
I have never owned any hadith literatures oh well I got a tiny little book about 40 hadiths but i didn't like or understood them.
Quran is the only evidence we have of the message from God, there are alot of evidence in the nature about our Creator but Al-Quran is a guideline for truebelievers and it will be there until the last day.
If people will adhere to other books then they are not satisfied with what God has given to them.When God is telling us to search for knowledge certainly He isn't telling us to read and adhere to manmade books.
And another point I have to bring forth is that the message will exactly stay the same in all times, therefore we can't look in the historybooks because we are living now and then we must follow Quran in our society the way we undertand it to be like.
I really don't believe that we should look back but instead look forward.
Therfore prophet Muhammad wasn't the last messenger he was the last prophet because there will not be any new scriptures.Peace
Sis Majidah -
Quran doesnt seem enough for him. Otherwise we wont even be discussing this
Good one ) This is coming from the person who believes what anyone tells him despite what the Quran says to the contrary. Dont forget to kiss it, Jaxal, there's a lot of blessings there for you. Thats why people get trampled on there.
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And God created common sense. For example, if i ask you, prove prophet Muhammad existed. You would be stumped. So use this logic in everything.
That's why Allah is my God and not some half-baked claptrap producer who believes goatskins in museums. Allah never asked to proof Muhammad existed or not. Allah commands me to serve Him through signs I witness in MY LIFE, not in a history book.
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Salaam Br MQ,
Wow exactly my point of view D
Trust God and don't believe in hearsays.
Quran are full of remindings of what happens to stubborn people so don't be one is my advice )
Peace
Sis Majidah -
SaLaM mquran
That's why Allah is my God and not some half-baked claptrap producer who believes goatskins in museums. Allah never asked to proof Muhammad existed or not. Allah commands me to serve Him through signs I witness in MY LIFE, not in a history book.
Thats right mquran. Everything except ur understanding is claptrap rotfl
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Jaxal,
You said
We can look at it two ways
1] Prophet Ibrahim built the Kabbah in Bakkah which is now called Makkah ( as i mentioned earlier, It is said that Bakkah was like a province and makkah was the actual city. OR the name is simply changed all thanks going to the saudi government.) People then started to make pilgrimage. Even at the time of the prophet people were making pilgrimage. Infact, it was one of the ways the traders made money (this is from the islamic history from my islamic class and then confirmed from a website. You can confirm it if you want to.). Even in the time of Prophet Muhammad people were doing it. At this point, i will welcome any hadiths that say that Kabbah was somewhere else. Prophet Muhammad MUST have known that this is wrong and would have tried to make it right. Agree?OR
2] Prophet Ibrahim did not built the Kabbah at Makkah, Saudia Arabia but in Jerusalam as Layth said in his article on free-mind. And people have been doing it wrong for 1400 years. Even with the comming of Prophet Muhammad, this wasnt corrected. Or maybe the sayings of our beloved prophet was ignored by the evil scholors.
Which one would make most sense? Forget the conspiracy theory. For get the evil schemese by the scholors. Forget that people are stupid to beleive in theor own country's history. Above two points, which one would make more sense?
Why only two choices?
I never doubted that the cube in Saudi Arabia was called the Kabbah, and that that is in the city of Makkah. The only things I am saying is
- The Koran never says to make pilgrimage to Makkah
- There is no real evidence to believe that Makkah was really called Bakkah.
- Bakkah has a number of classical Arabic meanings that should be consulted and that have more weight than Bakkah being equal to Makkah; meanings that the Arabs of Muhammad's time (God bless him) would have been familiar with.
- And the word Kabbah has other Classical Arabic meanings besides referring to that one cube(kabbah) in Makkah; meanings that the Arabs of Muhammad's day would have been familiar with when reading any literature or hearing anything with the word Kabbah in it.
You are being really narrow minded about this actually. You should understand that when the Koran uses the words Kabbah and Bakkah it doesn't have to be referring to any physical place at all. And that is because these words have Classical Arabic meanings that don't refer to places.
If you want to believe that when the Koran says the word Kabbah it means the Kabbah(the cube) in Makkah, Arabia or some place in Jerusalem then so be it. I hope you are very happy with that belief. Just understand that
1 the word Kabbah can refer to other, distinct things besides that building;
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that the word Bakkah can refer to other, distinct things besides the weak, pretty baseless assumption that it is an old archaism for Bakkah;
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and that even Makkah has other meanings besides that one city in Arabia.
Godbless,
ProGod -
SaLaM brother progod
I think you are right. Maybe i have been narrow minded here. Will you plz explain to me ur understanding? You dont have to go into details but if you can briefly explain what you beleive that where this Sacred House / Shrine is? Where we are supposed to make the pilgrimage. All the things which you think im wrong about. If i am wrong, i should correct myself. So, im asking you explain what you think of all it. http//www.geocities.com/bigjaxal/s1.gif
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Salam Jaxal,
I think you are right. Maybe i have been narrow minded here. Will you plz explain to me ur understanding? You dont have to go into details but if you can briefly explain what you beleive that where this Sacred House /Shrine is?
All places established for the communal worship of God are Sacred Sanctuaries and Sacred Houses. The Koran does not use the word Shrine. A shrine indicates more of a holy object. And neither bait, nor haraam, nor masjid mean 'shrine.'
Where we are supposed to make the pilgrimage
We are supposed to make pilgrimage to houses of God. The phrase 'House of God' does not just mean one house. Gentiles, Christians and Jews have historically and still commonly refer to their own respective temples (place of worship) as 'God's house', in Arabic and in other languages. This is a usage that was in use before the Koran, during the Koran and after the Koran. God's house is a general term for all places dedicated to the worship of God.
All the things which you think im wrong about. If i am wrong, i should correct myself. So, im asking you explain what you think of all it
There is a city called Makkah, in Saudi Arabia. There is no reason to doubt that is has always been called that, since it is known in Greek Lit. as Maca-Roba. But the word Makkah in Classical Arabic has other meanings (you can see them at http//www.progod.org/pilgrimage.html)
There is no real evidence for Bakkah being equal to Makkah. That is found in a Hadeeth with no real evidencef or it being true. That Hadeeth just shows what the scholars believed about the 'bakkah' referred to in the Koran. It is a speculation that everyone believes because of the scholar promoting it. Just like every Muslim Arab believes that Muhammad was Iliterate and the Masjid-al-aqsaa referred to in the Koran is the Masjid-Al-aqsaa in Jerusalem.
Bakkah has classical Arabic meanings that you can see at http//www.progod.org/pilgrimage.html
Kabbah is the cube in Makkah. But it also has other Classical Arabic meanings that when understood while reading the Koran do not lend to reader considering Kabbah a place but as a common noun or adverb refering to honor, fame or glory or being 'honorable, famous or glorious' You can see these meanings at
http//www.progod.org/pilgrimage.htmlKoranists should organize pilgrimage (convention style) to places of worship devoted to God alone. They should meet there and stay there for 2 days at the least and engage in certain activities, that consist of worship, recognition, giving honors, motivating, contributions and establishing connections, strengthening faith and building stronger bonds. Issues such as debates should be left for other times as there is to be no arguing or fighting during times of pilgrimage.
These pilgrimages should be performed on local levels, and if desired on international levels. Everyone shouldn't be going to one place on the planet to peform pilgrimage, unless there is such a scarcity of believers that that would be necessary to attain a sense of unity. The uniformity of the pilgrimage can be maintained through the unity of the world-wide organization of Koranists and their adherence to the Koran.
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SaLaM progod
If what you say above is true, then dont you think Prophet Muhammad would have said that somwhere? We know that most hadiths are sayings of the Prophet Muhammad. Why cant we find even a single hadith that supports what you have put forward?
Im sure you didnt make this all up, and you have your reasons to belive in that but when i read the same verses you read, i see it completely different than you.
For examle, the following verse
And from wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards the restricted Temple; it is the truth from your Lord; and God is not unaware of what you do.
Reading the arabic verse, we can clearly see it says 'masjid' and not 'Temple' as it is in the FM translation. Four other translations agree with this. The current Kabbah which is in Saudia Arabia, fits this description. It is forbidden. Is it masjid? I would call it that but then again, i associate masjid with 2 minars and a crecent moon. But that put aside, i cannot deny that THIS is where God is asking me to turn to.
AS for the meanings, I dont find it so unnatural that Kabbah or Makkah or Bakkah have other meanings too. But when they are all put together, they make sense in concluding that the Kabbah is where it is supposed to be.
Even leaving that aside and comming back to Prophet Muhammad. Prophet Muhammad's job was to not just send the Quran, but to explain it too. Agree? IF what people have been doing through the out the time was wrong, i.e worshiping the wronge 'Kabbah', dont you think prophet Muhammad was have said somethng about it somwhere? Hadiths may be inacurate, but there is no mention of Prophet Muhammad ever saying that this was wrong. A few possibiltes might be
1] People werent making the pilgrimage back then. I KNOW this is not true.
2] Prophet Muhammad didnt know back then. I find this to be untrue as well.
3] People were doing it right, but when the Prophet died, people strayed from the path. Maybe?
4] The scholors changed it all for their own benifit. What benifet that is, God knows. You seem to beleive this.How do you explain that the Prophet has not once mentioned that there was something wrong with the way pilgrimage wsa being performed?
PS Some members of the forums have difficulty distinguishing between someone who follows hadiths and someone who talks about hadiths. So for all those, im not a sunni , neither do i follow hadiths.
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salaam Br Jaxal,
He He are you really talking about hadiths!? I thought it sounds more like you are following them.
Because why then are you wondering if Prophet Muhammad mention this!?
Is that important that prophet M mention that!?
Peace
sis Majidah -
SaLaM my lovely lovely sis
Ofcourse its important. Porphet Muhammad was the person God chose to reveal the Quran through. IF what the people were doing was wrong back then, dont you think, the messenger of God would have said something to stop it? We also know that SOME of the hadiths are true. Hadiths are unreliable for many reasons, one is becoz its hear say. I heard him saying that he heard him through him who heard this from him. Stuff like that. But we can never find in the hadiths that the pilgrimage was being made at the wrong place. NEVER. Even if the hadiths has been twisted for the past 1400 years, there should be somthing there which remains and points that the Prophet said something about the pilgrimage.
PS Some members of the forums have difficulty distinguishing between someone who follows hadiths and someone who talks about hadiths. So for all those, im not a sunni , neither do i follow hadiths.
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Salaam Br Jaxal,
My opinion is that, if I can't found it in Quran then it's of no importance.
Peace
Sis Majidah -
Salaamun alaikum Majidah,
My opinion is that, if I can't found it in Quran then it's of no importance.
LOL, for Jaxal's its the opposite . If it IS found in the Quran its of no importance whatsoever. Goatskin manuscripts is his criterion, the older the better.
And moreover, its not just your opinion, Allah himself agrees with you
And We put coverings over their hearts (and minds) lest they should understand THE QURAN , and deafness into their ears when thou dost commemorate thy Lord in IN THE QURAN ALONE, they turn on their backs, fleeing (17/46)
Jaxal's behaviour was long ago preicted by Allah. No big deal, plenty of people like him in the world.
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Salaam Dear Br MQ,
Thanks for sharing my understanding and back it up D
Peace be upon you
Sis Majidah