Marrying someone of the same sex?
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peace brother genteel,
the reason that those details are left out is because they are totally irrelevent, there are plenty of mainstream muslims that don't have a problem with this, Iran (a country who's laws are strictly from the Qu'ran and ahadith) allows it's citizens to have a sex change paid for by the state.
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181 Praise GOD, who revealed to His servant this scripture, and made it flawless.
hermophrodites are Allah's creation, I see no reason to why he would prohibit them from getting married, if he did have a problem he would have said so.
673 He created seven universes in layers. You do not see any imperfection in the creation by the Most Gracious. Keep looking; do you see any flaw?
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the reason that those details are left out is because they are totally irrelevent,
Totally irrelevant, Angel???? O my, doesn't "god's words" apply to them or perhaps they are considered insignificant humans or weirdoes created by "God", hence must be transformed by other humans because of His miscalculations? Have they already sinned at birth? How about the divinely laws, commands and principles befitting to them, such as marriage, waiting periods, punishments, inheritance, et cetera, et cetera? Who must they marry to? A male, a female or both, or perhaps to another similar one should they exist in counter-balance? Yes, again, such laws are irrelevant to them but why? If they are left to live as they are born because they are God's natural creation, then its logical for such a God to leave us with some credibility in HIS Final book for its own creation for all times to justify His commands for them but they are unfounded and left humans to act on His behalf in whatever way they feel right.Iran (a country who's laws are strictly from the Qu'ran and ahadith) allows it's citizens to have a sex change paid for by the state.
Hmm, I wasn't aware of that and other Muslim countries may be allowing such transformations, but then my first sentence in previous post shall stand correct, right?One of major problems with "holy books" is that if something is not mentioned in them, then hell breaks loose and people start looking all over the place for answers and eveready to manipulate words and verses to substantiate their mindsets without actually knowing its real historicity or natural intent. On the contrary, we already know the culpable and disputable situations and ambiguities existing from within since centuries, yet it professes that it is easy to understand, complete with details, flawless, etc. but we have countless translations all of which have been severely criticized by Muslims themselves.
hermophrodites are Allah's creation, I see no reason to why he would prohibit them from getting married,
See above in italics.if he did have a problem he would have said so.
Well, it seems that ?he? certainly did have a problem and forget to mention them to his people or had no idea about them. As I mentioned earlier that this issue is controversial even among scholarly religious groups and a complex one at best and not that easy the way you put it. -
Totally irrelevant, Angel????
yes.
O my, doesn't "god's words" apply to them
it does, but since he has not prohibited us from marrying them then there is no need to mention them.
or perhaps they are considered insignificant humans or weirdoes created by "God",
they are not insignificant, and they most certainly are not "weirdos", only a chauvinistic bigot would possess such a view, it is a view all decent people would refrain from.
hence must be transformed by other humans because of His miscalculations?
Allah creates us how he wills. I am perplexed to why you think they "must be" transformed? just because Allah has made you strictly male does not by any means make you superior to them, for all we know you might be in desperate need of a face lift, it hardly means that you "must" have one.
Have they already sinned at birth?
it is not a punishment.
Not all hermophrodites are "unhappy", some of them are actually satisfied with their bodies (I am not joking either), many of them are hurt by comments like yours (claiming they are weirdos, god's "miscalculations", nastily claiming that that they have sinned at birth), you should be ashamed of your self for suggesting such ideas, addressing such people in a such a mean manner is extremely un-Islamic, you may not be a muslim but this is an islamic forum.
How about the divinely laws, commands and principles befitting to them, such as marriage, waiting periods, punishments, inheritance, et cetera, et cetera? Who must they marry to? A male, a female or both, or perhaps to another similar one should they exist in counter-balance? Yes, again, such laws are irrelevant to them but why?
those laws are not irrelevant, there is wisdom behind those laws, those issues have been discussed in the forum, use the "search" function if you feel it is necessary.
If they are left to live as they are born because they are God's natural creation, then its logical for such a God to leave us with some credibility in HIS Final book for its own creation for all times to justify His commands for them but they are unfounded and left humans to act on His behalf in whatever way they feel right.
there's nothing wrong with marrying them, Allah did not forbid it, why make such an issue out of it?
Hmm, I wasn't aware of that and other Muslim countries may be allowing such transformations, but then my first sentence in previous post shall stand correct, right?
not at all. If Allah prohibited something like this then he would have said so.
but we have countless translations all of which have been severely criticized by Muslims themselves.
religion does not unite, it never had done, it only divides, here at freeminds (to use OPF's words) we are united in division.
Well, it seems that ?he? certainly did have a problem and forget to mention them to his people or had no idea about them.
so you have a problem with hermophrodites? Allah doesn't.
As I mentioned earlier that this issue is controversial even among scholarly religious groups and a complex one at best and not that easy the way you put it.
anyone can make a mountain out of a molehill.
Only bigot's have a problems with hermophrodites getting married.
I rest my case.
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The Quran is also very liberal on matters. When it says "do not forbid the lawful and do not make allowed the unlawful", and also says "shall I seek as a source of law other than God / this book", then we know anything not mentioned by it as directly or indirectly prohibited is lawful, within the bounds of common sense.
Hermaphrodites and such were surely around in those times, there are in fact several hadeeth talking about effeminate men. Take that as you will.
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6151 Say "Come let me recite for you what your Lord has forbidden for you that you should not set up anything with Him; and be kind to your parents; and do not kill your children for fear of poverty, We provide for you and for them; and do not come near lewdness, what is plain of it or subtle; and do not kill the soul which God has forbidden, except in justice. That is what He enjoined you that you may comprehend."
733 Say "My Lord has forbidden all lewd action, what is obvious from them and what is subtle, and sin, and aggression without cause, and that you set up partners with God that which He has never authorized, and that you say about God what you do not know."
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O my, doesn't "god's words" apply to them
it does,
If it does, then WHERE are His words to be found in the Quran pertaining to hermaphrodites, transsexuals and conjoined species?but since he has not prohibited us from marrying them then there is no need to mention them.
Hmmm, according to you, ?god?s words does apply to them but, but, they are not mentioned, but, but, but, he has not prohibited us???. ???or perhaps they are considered insignificant humans or weirdoes created by "God",
they are not insignificant, and they most certainly are not "weirdos", only a chauvinistic bigot would possess such a view, it is a view all decent people would refrain from.
When it comes to religious beliefs, chauvinistic bigots AND deceivers are those who pretend to play God or act on behalf of God and make baseless claims, having absolutely no idea of what or who exactly this ?God? is to begin with.hence must be transformed by other humans because of His miscalculations?
I am perplexed to why you think they "must be" transformed?
I am even more perplexed to see you break up sentences and make false accusations. I won?t even touch on some of your other infuriated personal disclaimers that are completely dislodged and meaningless to this discussion. Only a deceiver takes such steps and I know all too well why that happens.Have they already sinned at birth?
it is not a punishment.
Who said it is?Not all hermophrodites are "unhappy", some of them are actually satisfied with their bodies (I am not joking either),
Being ?unhappy? or ?satisfied with bodies? is not my concern here. I am concerned with laws, rules, conditions and principles as per your alleged ?god?s words? and it?s not just hermaphrodites I am talking about but also transsexuals and conjoined species. You need to understand what?s being talked about.How about the divinely laws, commands and principles befitting to them, such as marriage, waiting periods, punishments, inheritance, et cetera, et cetera? Who must they marry to? A male, a female or both, or perhaps to another similar one should they exist in counter-balance? Yes, again, such laws are irrelevant to them but why?
those laws are not irrelevant, there is wisdom behind those laws, those issues have been discussed in the forum, use the "search" function if you feel it is necessary.
The only legal relationships mentioned in the Quran are between a man and a woman. Those laws are absolutely irrelevant, meaningless and inapplicable to hermaphrodites, transexuals and conjoined species unless they are transformed into either males or females. As a matter of fact the rules on conjoined twins become even more complex and difficult to administer.If they are left to live as they are born because they are God's natural creation, then its logical for such a God to leave us with some credibility in HIS Final book for its own creation for all times to justify His commands for them but they are unfounded and left humans to act on His behalf in whatever way they feel right.
there's nothing wrong with marrying them, Allah did not forbid it, why make such an issue out of it?
My above quote has nothing to do with marriage (specifically). You keep parroting your statements without any basis whatsoever. Marrying them or not marrying them is not the ONLY governing factor you seem to blab about. In any case, just let us know who must a hermaphrodite or a conjoined twin or a transexual marry since you seem fondly bent upon marriage (as if that was the only criteria) and the rest of the ramifications will follow? Since the Quran is completely silent on these extremely important issues, we shall see how YOU come about rules, laws and conditions throbbed upon them.Hmm, I wasn't aware of that and other Muslim countries may be allowing such transformations, but then my first sentence in previous post shall stand correct, right?
not at all. If Allah prohibited something like this then he would have said so.
If Allah said this, he would have said so, if Allah said that, he wouldn?t have said so, if Allah said this then that, if Allah said that, then this??this/that, this/that??.sheeeesh, ignorebut we have countless translations all of which have been severely criticized by Muslims themselves.
religion does not unite, it never had done, it only divides, here at freeminds (to use OPF's words) we are united in division.
What a load of baloney.Are there any sincere intelligent ones on this forum who can discuss the concerns without getting personal and warped up (second request)? If not, then please don?t bother.
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If it does, then WHERE are His words to be found in the Quran pertaining to hermaphrodites, transsexuals and conjoined species?
it's like we're going round in circles.
Read the story of moses and the heifer, god does not ask about petty details.
Hmmm, according to you, ?god?s words does apply to them but, but, they are not mentioned, but, but, but, he has not prohibited us???. ???
I see you are confused, Allah's words apply to all humans, hermophrodites are humans (believe it or not), I think you might be the only person who disagrees that they are human, if Allah prohibited us from marrying them he would have said so. The Quran says that it is fully detailed.
When it comes to religious beliefs, chauvinistic bigots AND deceivers are those who pretend to play God or act on behalf of God and make baseless claims, having absolutely no idea of what or who exactly this ?God? is to begin with.
I have no idea what you are talking about, the Quran claims to be fully detailed. And it certainly was not me he called hermophrodites "wierdos", something as sick as that has never even crossed my mind.
I am even more perplexed to see you break up sentences and make false accusations. I won?t even touch on some of your other infuriated personal disclaimers that are completely dislodged and meaningless to this discussion. Only a deceiver takes such steps and I know all too well why that happens.
is that coz u do it ur self all the time, we all have a habit of judging people by own our standereds, whether our standereds are good or bad is irrelevent, we tend to judge people as we are and not as they are
Who said it is?
if you don't believe it is a punishment then why the hell did you say "have they already sinned at birth?" brickwall brickwall, you know full well sinning at birth is a Christian concept and not an Islamic one, Rashad Khalifah's sect is the only group that believes that we have sinned before we were born, and even his sect believes that EVERYONE sinned before birth not just hermophrodites, whereas your question was "have they sinned at birth" (strictly referring to hermophrodites).
Being ?unhappy? or ?satisfied with bodies? is not my concern here.
then why ask me if they sinned at birth?
I am concerned with laws, rules, conditions and principles as per your alleged ?god?s words? and it?s not just hermaphrodites I am talking about but also transsexuals and conjoined species. You need to understand what?s being talked about.
I've already given my views earlier on in the thread, I do not wish to go round in circles.
The only legal relationships mentioned in the Quran are between a man and a woman.
the quran does not talk about what color clothes we should wear either. o
Those laws are absolutely irrelevant, meaningless and inapplicable to hermaphrodites, transexuals and conjoined species unless they are transformed into either males or females.
nonesense. like i said my view has already been expressed earlier on in the thread.
As a matter of fact the rules on conjoined twins become even more complex and difficult to administer.
But where in the quran does it prohibit them from getting married. It's a sin to prohibit what Allah has not prohibited.
My above quote has nothing to do with marriage (specifically).
then what is it about?
You keep parroting your statements without any basis whatsoever.
quote from the quran to prove me wrong.
Marrying them or not marrying them is not the ONLY governing factor you seem to blab about.
yeah ur right, they need food, clothes, shelter, LOVE, etc they are humans afterall, I guess you have forgotton what the title of the thread is.
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Angel; you are just a deluded and confused person, who does not even know what does she/he wants. Ok i am not just saying it but I will provide proof for that
Angel wrote
since this thread is about 'Marrying someone of the same sex' and you want to discuss other issues perhaps it would be more appropriate to spew in that thread instead.
"Marrying some one of the same sex" right?
So one more time for your eyes only I repeat for the third times Quranic Ayats
And the two women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from amongst you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death takes them, or God makes for them a way out.
If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for God is Oft-returning, Most Merciful
"You come to men with desire instead of women; you are a transgressing people."
"You are approaching the men out of lust instead of the women! No, you are an ignorant people!"
These Ayats are very very clear,
NO! Quran says NO for the marrying of same sex. This is simple and accurate answer from the Quran to the Question asked in the topic of thread, but since you like Irshad Menji seem to have lust for the same sex, you are trying to distort the meanings of the Quranic Ayats according to your wishes. Bad Girl >D
Angel
i
take it that u have never heard of "urine therapy", tiz the various applications of human urine for medicinal or cosmetic purposes. A practitioner of urine therapy is sometimes called a uropath.3 words DO YOUR HOMEWORK.
3 words I LOVE YOU. That does not mean exactly you, but people like you, who are confused and have lost the path, path leading to Allah, they need help and not criticism.
Dear lady/gentleman
We were talking about drinking of urine and not using urine as a medicine, if you care to scroll up a bit.
if you believe it is a sin to marry heramphrodites then quote the verse.
my views are obviously too librel for your liking.
Ahhhh! what a wonderful life it would have been if depended on my liking and disliking, sadly it does not. Quran is the criterion.
Angel
if you believe it is a sin to marry heramphrodites then quote the verse.
The correct word I think is "hermaphrodites" and you Angel despite other lacks in your posts, donot read carefully what others write.
I wrote in one of my last posts that some one born with both sex organs, will definitely adapt a sex; either male or female and then in that case the Ayats of Quran fit on him.
In times past, doctors would perform surgeries without first testing the infant to find out its true sex, and the child would sometimes grow up very obviously a man, with female genitalia. Now, specialists can perform an ultrasound, blood test, chromosome analysis, and even do exploratory surgery to find out the baby's true sex. The treatment is still controversial, however.Any way it must be considered that these Babies are not born with physical disorders to punish their parents in any way as portrayed by many Mullahs.
This is What one scholar has to say about it
Since all hermaphrodites are either male or female, there should be no objection at all to a male khunsa, or any man, taking a female khunsa for his wife. The Hedaya postulates the possibility of a female khunsa bearing children! Con- versely, there should be no objection to a woman marrying a male khunsa.
But what about a man marrying another man, and a woman marrying another woman, i.e. the real same-sex marriage? Like many people who subscribe to one of the major religions, I find that to breach a religious teaching.I will post some more intresting material on it.
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Fatwa by al-azhar I guess on the related matter
As for the condemnation of those who by word and deed resemble women, it must he confined to one who does it deliberately , while one who is like this out of a natural disposition must be ordered to abandon it, even if this can only be achieved step by step. Should he then not comply, but persist , the blame shall include him, as well-- especially if he displays any pleasure in doing so.
The person who is by nature a hermaphrodite is not to be blamed. This is based on if he is not capable of abandoning the female, swinging his hips in walking and speaking in a feminine way, after having been subjected to treatment against it, it is still possible for him to abandon it, if only gradually. But if he gives up the cure with no good excuse, then he deserves blame.
At-Tabari took it as an example that the Prophet (God bless him and grant him salvation) did not forbid the hermaphrodite from entering the women's quarters until he heard him giving a description of the woman in great detail. Then he prohibited it. This proves that no blame is on the hermaphrodite for simply being created that way.
That being so, the rulings derived from these and other noble hadiths on treatment grant permission to perform an operation changing a man into a woman, or vice versa, as long as a reliable doctor concludes that there are innate causes in the body itself, indicating a buried female nature, or a covered male nature, because the operation will disclose these buried or covered organs, thereby curing a corporal disease which cannot be removed, except by this operation.
This is also dealt with in a hadith about cutting a vein, which is related through Jabir "The Messenger of God sent a physician to abu ibn Kacb. The physician cut a vein and burned it." This hadith is related by Ahmad and Muslim. What supports this view is what al-Qastallani(30) and al-cAsqalani say in their commentaries on it "This means that it is incumbent upon the hermaphrodite to remove the symptoms of femininity."
And this is further sustained by the author of Fath al-Bari who says "...having given him treatment in order to abandon it..." This is a clear proof that the duty prescribed for the hermaphrodite can take the form of a treatment. The operation is such a treatment, perhaps even the best treatment. This operation can not be granted at the mere wish to change sex with no clear and convincing corporal motives.
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i'm done with this thread.
if you want to drink urine raj-ah feel free, don't let me stop you.
Angel; you are just a deluded and confused person, who does not even know what does she/he wants. Ok i am not just saying it but I will provide proof for that
that was not "proof" that was directed to Genteel who's claiming that the quran is not fully detailed, Genteel said
Marrying them or not marrying them is not the ONLY governing factor you seem to blab about.
the rest of ur post is not even worth reading.
have a nice day.
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Angel
i'm done with this thread.
if you want to drink urine raj-ah feel free, don't let me stop you
Thank you, but you were advocate for it and not me if you remember?
Angel
the rest of ur post is not even worth reading.
have a nice day
How can I have a nice day when such a lovely girl gets angry with me? I am Sorrrrrrrrry.
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hehehe no i don't advocate urine, not even as a medicine, i don't do medicines, i never take 'em even when i'm ill,
I think the reason that Allah never prohibited urine and poo was because my science teacher once told me that if you are ever stranded in the middle of nowhere with nothing to eat and you are starving to death you can eat your poo and drink your urine to survive. There's also a verse in the quran which says that you can eat pork if there is nothing else to eat. Aajonus Vonderplintz (sp?) did an article about how drinking urine improved his health. Anyways I dunno why you even brought the urine issue up when the thread is about marriages.
And please don't apologise, i was never angry at you, i'm just bored of talking about the topic.
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Peace
What I am saying is that you are making it sound like Homosexuals are the only ones that have anal sex and spread disease and that no one else does it. AIDS is not based on homosexuals and neither is anal sex. Also, who says all homosexuals have anal sex?
Peace
Peace,
I don't think I addressed this last time.
The issue is, those deeds resulting in STD transmission/origination are prohibited in the Quran, hence no public/casual sex out of marriage, and here, no homosexual lewdness. It does not matter whether not all homosexuals have anal sex, the fact remains that a disproportionate amount do, are highly promiscuous and spread STDs.
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heterosexuals don't?
Forbidden?
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A) Not anal sex but public sex/promiscuity
B) I don't know
C) It's disproportionate. Where heterosexuals go wrong, that behaviour is also forbidden in the Quran.
It's like saying murdering Palestinians is alright since Jews were also murdered