SunDown Or Last Sun's Rays Out?
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peace siki,
I do not understand the definitions you are using of dawn/sunrise, and sunset/dusk, so cant comment.
peace wakas
Quran uses the words "ALfajar" and ale'esha for the over lapping periods of day and night, and we call them dawn and dusk in english.
Dawn period is from the first light to sun rise. and dusk is , from sun set to last light . Both have their precise definitions in Al Quran.
Day starts at sun rise and finishes at sun set.
Night starts at last light and finishes at first light.
lets see 2-187
.... and eat and drink until the whiteness of the day becomes distinct from the blackness of the night at dawn( fajar), then complete the fast till night, ....
Fajar is not a precise marker , as it extends over a reasonable length of time, HE in his infinite mercy explains precisely, when to stop eating, by giving us a precise point of time during Fajar, which is, start of Fajar ,or end of the night.
And then complete the fast till night, that is start of the night. or when the dusk period finishes.
If we break fast at sun set , that time is not night , but start of isha (dusk), moreover had he wanted us to use this precise marker, he would have used more precise words for it , like Ghorubul al shams. (which he has used at many places in Quran) or Dulukul al shams.( sun touches/ rubs horizon)
He has described Isha in 17-78
You shall hold the assembly at the sun's setting until the darkness of the night, and the Quran at dawn; the Quran at dawn has been witnessed.
Isha / dusk starts at daluk ul shams and ends at darkness of the night, and then the night starts.
peace
siki
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Peace Siki,
If we break fast at sun set , that time is not night , but start of isha (dusk), moreover had he wanted us to use this precise marker, he would have used more precise words for it , like Ghorubul al shams. (which he has used at many places in Quran) or Dulukul al shams.( sun touches/ rubs horizon)
I think that the marker as the start of night is very precise. Please explain how the god merges night into daylight and daylight into night (2261, 3129, 3513, 576) when according to you night starts when it is completely dark and there is no longer any daylight to merge into.
Peace,
Ayman
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peace siki,
I disagree with your view about what night is. Quranic night starts at evening twilight (when the sun becomes completely beneath the horizon) and ends at sunrise (when the sun first appears above the horizon). Please see
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/quranic.htmI linked to the above article in this thread already.
Specifically see 3637 which makes it clear night contains some light, i.e. includes twilight.
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Peace Siki,
POINT # 1
I think you are misunderstanding 3637.
It clearly says, "we remove the daylight from it". You cannot remove something from another thing if the other thing does not have that something. This shows that "layl"/night contains the "daylight", otherwise the daylight cannot be removed from the night. This is what 3637 tells us
Layl/night includes daylight and darkness. When you remove the daylight from it ---> darkness remains.
This does not mean night = darkness, but it means that night - daylight = darkness, or night = darkness + daylight.
night = daylight + darkness
night - daylight = (daylight + darkness) - daylight
night - daylight = darknessPOINT # 2
Verse 1778 mentions "until darkness of the night". If night = darkness, then "darkness of the night" will mean "darkness of darkness" which is ridiculous. If night = darkness, then God could have said "until night". Therefore night = darkness + something else.
POINT # 3
As Ayman pointed out, if night (layl) is separate from daytime (nahaar), then how can you merge one into the other? You can merge two things only if they overlap. Your understanding contradicts all the following
327 ?You merge the night into the daytime, and merge the daytime into the night; and you bring the living out of the dead, and bring the dead out of the living; and You provide for whom You please with no reckoning.?
2261 That is because God merges the night in the daytime, and He merges the daytime in the night. And God is Hearer, Seer.
3129 Have you not seen that God merges the night into the daytime and merges the daytime into the night, and that He has committed the sun and the moon, each running to a predetermined term; and that God is expert of everything you do?
3513 He merges the night into the daytime, and merges the daytime into the night. And He has committed the sun and the moon, each runs for a predetermined period. Such is God your Lord; to Him is the sovereignty. And as for those whom you call on besides Him, they do not possess a seed's shell.
395 He created the heavens and the Earth with truth. He rolls the night over the daytime, and He rolls the daytime over the night. And He committed the sun and the moon, each running for an appointed term. Absolutely, He is the Noble, the Forgiving.
576 He merges the night into the daytime, and merges the daytime into the night. He is fully aware of what is inside the chests.
POINT # 4
8416 So I do swear by the redness of dusk.
8417 And the night and what it is driven on.This does not mean that dusk and night are different. In 8416 God is swearing by a part of night and in 8417 He is swearing by the complete night.
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peace siki,
I disagree with your view about what night is. Quranic night starts at evening twilight (when the sun becomes completely beneath the horizon) and ends at sunrise (when the sun first appears above the horizon). Please see
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/quranic.htmI linked to the above article in this thread already.
Specifically see 3637 which makes it clear night contains some light, i.e. includes twilight.
peace wakas
let me assure you i had gone through the article a couple of years ago. But,
An article is just an opinion of someone , and hence could be wrong/could be improved. let me tell you there are quite a few of them at free- minds , which can be categorised as trash.In my view 36-37 is an argument against your opionion.
36-37 Another sign for them is the night we remove the daylight therefrom, whereupon they are in darkness.
I interpret this as ,
untill and unless day light is removed (completely) from it , we cant call it a night.
or, it is not night till the time there is some day light in the night.
siki
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Peace Siki,
POINT # 1
I think you are misunderstanding 3637.
It clearly says, "we remove the daylight from it". You cannot remove something from another thing if the other thing does not have that something. This shows that "layl"/night contains the "daylight", otherwise the daylight cannot be removed from the night. This is what 3637 tells us
Layl/night includes daylight and darkness. When you remove the daylight from it ---> darkness remains.
This does not mean night = darkness, but it means that night - daylight = darkness, or night = darkness + daylight.
night = daylight + darkness
night - daylight = (daylight + darkness) - daylight
night - daylight = darknessI cant uderstand this argument of yours, Going by this logic , even the day time can be called night , because basically it is darkness/night everywhere and day light is added to it, if you add something to existing, that original something does not vanish, it remains.
POINT # 2
Verse 1778 mentions "until darkness of the night". If night = darkness, then "darkness of the night" will mean "darkness of darkness" which is ridiculous. If night = darkness, then God could have said "until night". Therefore night = darkness + something else.
There are many verses from which different minds would draw different inferences and hence could be interpreted in favour of the either. You know i would take this darkness of the night argument as, Darkness is definition of the night.
As Ayman pointed out, if night (layl) is separate from daytime (nahaar), then how can you merge one into the other? You can merge two things only if they overlap. Your understanding contradicts all the following
327 You merge the night into the daytime, and merge the daytime into the night; and you bring the living out of the dead, and bring the dead out of the living; and You provide for whom You please with no reckoning.
2261 That is because God merges the night in the daytime, and He merges the daytime in the night. And God is Hearer, Seer.
3129 Have you not seen that God merges the night into the daytime and merges the daytime into the night, and that He has committed the sun and the moon, each running to a predetermined term; and that God is expert of everything you do?
3513 He merges the night into the daytime, and merges the daytime into the night. And He has committed the sun and the moon, each runs for a predetermined period. Such is God your Lord; to Him is the sovereignty. And as for those whom you call on besides Him, they do not possess a seed's shell.
395 He created the heavens and the Earth with truth. He rolls the night over the daytime, and He rolls the daytime over the night. And He committed the sun and the moon, each running for an appointed term. Absolutely, He is the Noble, the Forgiving.
576 He merges the night into the daytime, and merges the daytime into the night. He is fully aware of what is inside the chests.
These coiling/overlapping/merging periods are defined in Quran with Fajr and isha not as day or night.
sun rise to sun set. day.
sunset to darkness isha
darkness to first light night
first light to sun rise FajrAt the end , i would repeat the argument which tilted my opinion , when i was confused about the issue.
The point at which you advocate to break fast, has a much better definition , and that particular marker is very precise and has been used in Quran many a times, Ghorubul al shams or Dalukul shams, Why didn't he use it here ?
peaceI suggest that we sort the above argument first , if you/anybody has any thing to say.
siki
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Peace Siki,
The point at which you advocate to break fast, has a much better definition , and that particular marker is very precise and has been used in Quran many a times, Ghorubul al shams or Dalukul shams, Why didn't he use it here ?
POINT # 1
God uses different words to refer to the same thing sometimes in al-quran. For example, He calls those who believe "muslimeen" in 2278. Other places He uses the word "momineen". At some places He refers to "al-quran" as "al-furqaan" (2185), or "al-kitaab", or "al-hikmat".
Why did He not use "duluk" always instead of "ghurub", for example in 20130 and 5039?
POINT # 2
"Duluk al-shams" starts as soon as the sun's lower border touches the horizon. The sun is still above horizon. A few minutes pass before the sun's upper border disappears below the horizon and that is when "layl"/night starts.
If God would have used this phrase then people would be breaking fast a few minutes earlier!
"Ghurub al-shams" could have been used but see point # 1 and point # 3
POINT # 3
If He had used precise terminology for breaking fast then we will have to break our fasts at a very precise time and no room for any delay, but by using "night" He gave us some leeway and we don't have to keep our eyes glued to the horizon to see the exact time of sunset which could have caused retinal damage and blindness! Mercy of God?
"God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship" (from 2185)
POINT # 4
These coiling/overlapping/merging periods are defined in Quran with Fajr and isha not as day or night.
I agree that they are called "fajr" and "'isha" but they are still considered part of daytime because they are called the two edges of the daytime in 11114. They are also considered part of night because they are called the near parts of the night in 11114. These two times are where the daytime and night overlap.
According to your definitions, "two edges of the daytime (nahaar)" and "near parts of the night (layl)" in 11114 cannot refer to "fajr" or "'isha".
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Darkness is definition of the night.
Peace Siki,
As explained earlier it's impossible to tell exactly when darkeness starts and will vary with each individual.
The start and stop of fasting is precise -- white thread of dawn to sunset.
Also see below and ponder the verse on the shadow...
? Full Harvest Moon - September This is the full Moon that occurs closest to the autumn equinox. In two years out of three, the Harvest Moon comes in September, but in some years it occurs in October. At the peak of harvest, farmers can work late into the night by the light of this Moon.
? Full Hunter's Moon - October With the leaves falling and the deer fattened, it is time to hunt. Since the fields have been reaped, hunters can easily see fox and the animals which have come out to glean.
2545 Did you not see to your Lord how He casts the shadow?
http//tasaweer.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/gold_and_black.jpg
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Salaamun All,
Alhamdulillahi Rabbil Aalameen... Allah made things very clear...
20130 Hence, bear with patience whatever they may say, and extol thy Sustainer's limitless glory and praise Him before the rising of the sun and before its setting; and extol His glory, too, during some of the hours of the night as well as during the hours of the day, so that thou might attain to happiness.
Faisbir AAala ma yaqooloona wasabbih bihamdi rabbika qabla tulooAAi alshshamsi waqabla ghuroobiha wamin anai allayli fasabbih waatrafa alnnahari laAAallaka tarda
(20130)
Qabla Tulu' AlShams = Before the Sunrise
Qabla Ghurubiha = Before the Sunset
Aanaai AlLayli = Times of the Night
Atraaf AlNahaar = Edges of the DayWe can notice that 24 hours has been divided into 4 parts Sunrise, Sunset, Night and Day. That clearly means that Night cannot be at Sunset. Sunrise and Sunset are two more periods other than Day and Night.
One more point to be taken care of is Atraaf AlNahaar - that means The edges of the Day. And every edge got a different name like . Does night also got edges? I found only one i.e., Sahar. Please let me know if you find any more in Day or Night.
May Allah open our hearts to understand His Message clearly and correctly. pr
Regards,
mmKhan -
peace all,
mmkhan,
"atraf" is plural, meaning 3 or more edges of daytime/nahar. In my view 20130 is an idiomatic expression meaning "all the time". To interpret it any other way leads to inconsistancies in timing (I tried many different interpretations and I have never read one that does not cause problems).
truthseeker,
"near/adjacent parts of the night" means 3 or more parts of the night. That is morning twilight, evening twilight and actual night. I discussed this in detail here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7532.msg8991#msg8991
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Peace Siki,
POINT # 1
God uses different words to refer to the same thing sometimes in al-quran. For example, He calls those who believe "muslimeen" in 2278. Other places He uses the word "momineen". At some places He refers to "al-quran" as "al-furqaan" (2185), or "al-kitaab", or "al-hikmat".
peace truth seeker
Brother ! you need to benifit from a statement of mine posted in hot ramadhan which i copy down below , in response to your above quoted point.
quote.
Do you think God used this word , "Just casually" I think you guys have stayed in the forum long enough to witness , "That His choice of words is absoutely precise and Delibrate".The wisdom behind each usage, "sometimes we know, and some times we find" ! But is NEVER, NEVER CASUAL, and when we dont find (wisdom) "please keep striving to find" , because his words are balanced to perfection. unquote.
Moreover , kindly use the search function to find out numerous threads/discussions/opinions on the difference between the usage of Muslimeen and Momineen in Quran.
POINT # 2
"Duluk al-shams" starts as soon as the sun's lower border touches the horizon. The sun is still above horizon. A few minutes pass before the sun's upper border disappears below the horizon and that is when "layl"/night starts.
If God would have used this phrase then people would be breaking fast a few minutes earlier!
Brother rest assured , i precisely know the difference between dalukulshams and ghorubulshams.
You are bothered about few minutes, where as despite calling for layal ,people are breaking fast at plenty of minutes earlier
POINT # 3
If He had used precise terminology for breaking fast then we will have to break our fasts at a very precise time and no room for any delay, but by using "night" He gave us some leeway and we don't have to keep our eyes glued to the horizon to see the exact time of sunset which could have caused retinal damage and blindness! Mercy of God?
"God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship" (from 2185)
.
The above logic is not worthy of your percieved intellect.
He uses a very precise marker for starting fast , when we dont need it , but when we are hungry/thirsty and require a precise marker to start eating, He does not use it? and according to you he gives us a vague time to test our patience and brains?
looks like you guys are finally blinded damaging your retinas by starring at Ghorobul shams for breaking fast, and hence cant see a clear commandment of layal. Where as, he does not want you to do that. That is why he has given you the layal marker.
Moreover do you ever go out and stare at horizon , looking for that first ray of whitness to stop eating in the morning ?POINT # 4
I agree that they are called "fajr" and "'isha" but they are still considered part of daytime because they are called the two edges of the daytime in 11114. They are also considered part of night because they are called the near parts of the night in 11114. These two times are where the daytime and night overlap.
According to your definitions, "two edges of the daytime (nahaar)" and "near parts of the night (layl)" in 11114 cannot refer to "fajr" or "'isha".
I think quranic names for the above mentioned overlapping times are very clear, Fajr, Isha, No matter from which end you hold the ear, layal starts after isha is finished.
peace
siki
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Peace Siki,
As explained earlier it's impossible to tell exactly when darkeness starts and will vary with each individual.
The start and stop of fasting is precise -- white thread of dawn to sunset.
The start eating marker is as precise/ or to say unprecise as the stop eating marker (explained properly in 2-185 for start of dawn) For 1400 years no one has ever dared to question HIM regarding its unprecision.
Moreover, where do you get this sunset from ?
peace
siki
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Salaaman Wakas,
"atraf" is plural, meaning 3 or more edges of daytime/nahar. In my view 20130 is an idiomatic expression meaning "all the time". To interpret it any other way leads to inconsistancies in timing (I tried many different interpretations and I have never read one that does not cause problems).
Thank you for your clarification brother . Instead of saying all the time, I prefer to say at all the edges of day whatever they might be. I think this is better. Right?
But do you find any more names of edges of Day and Night? Please let me know anyone knows.
Regards,
mmKhan -
Peace Siki,
I think quranic names for the above mentioned overlapping times are very clear, Fajr, Isha, No matter from which end you hold the ear, layal starts after isha is finished.
You are contradicting yourself here. You are admitting they are overlapping, so isha would be part of layl. The nahaar and layl overlap at two times, fajr and isha. That is apparent when you combine 11114 with 1778. It leaves no doubt that layl starts at sunset.
God Himself says many times that nahaar and layl overlap/merge (the verses were referenced earlier by both Ayman and me). I don't know why you still insist that they don't overlap!
If your definitions are true then they contradict with the verses where God says daytime and night overlap/merge and aso contradict with 11114 where the two edges of the day overlap with the near parts of the night. Your definitions imply that there are 6 or more salaats being referenced in 11114 and 1778, which makes no sense
2 salaats at two edges of the daytime, 2 salaats at the near parts of the night, fajr salaat, and isha salaat.
How can you take daylight from something which does not have daylight to start with? (see 3637) That does not mean daytime is also night because both have been distinguished from each other in al-quran but they also overlap. Hence night has some daylight in it after the sun sets, and that daylight is being referred to in 3637. When that daylight is removed from the night, it results in darkness.
Night - Daylight = Darkness, so
Night = Darkness + DaylightAs Nun has pointed out, how can we determine when exactly the darkness of the night starts and the daylight finishes? The varying moonlight depending on the phases, the light of stars, and whether it is cloudy or not, can introduce varying grades of darkness. Therefore, darkness would be a very imprecise marker. The marker to break fast is very precise. It is at the start of the night which is right after sunset, because isha is part of layl. This issue of layl and nahaar is one of the very few times I find myself agreeing with Nun.
May God introduce some light in the darkness of your interpretation
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Peace Siki,
You are contradicting yourself here. You are admitting they are overlapping, so isha would be part of layl. The nahaar and layl overlap at two times, fajr and isha. That is apparent when you combine 11114 with 1778. It leaves no doubt that layl starts at sunset.
God Himself says many times that nahaar and layl overlap/merge (the verses were referenced earlier by both Ayman and me). I don't know why you still insist that they don't overlap!
Salam truth seeker!
I think you are not reading my posts, where did i say or insist that they dont overlap?
( I wouldnt waste space to recopy from my old posts to show you , that all along i have been saying that the day and night merge / overlap/coil at dawn and isha time. i am sure you can scroll back and find for yourself )You are not understanding that God has assigned "names" to these overlapping periods, which contain both night and day, 'Fajar", and "Isha", in quran. Please make an honest effort to understand this.
If your definitions are true then they contradict with the verses where God says daytime and night overlap/merge and aso contradict with 11114 where the two edges of the day overlap with the near parts of the night. Your definitions imply that there are 6 or more salaats being referenced in 11114 and 1778, which makes no sense
2 salaats at two edges of the daytime, 2 salaats at the near parts of the night, fajr salaat, and isha salaat.I never said nor even remotely think that there are 6 salats.
I think you are not understanding 11-114 properly. This ayaha is explaining or bounding the period for fajr and isha prayer. They are to be completed in the time periods bounded by edges of the day in the near parts of the night.
How can you take daylight from something which does not have daylight to start with? (see 3637) That does not mean daytime is also night because both have been distinguished from each other in al-quran but they also overlap. Hence night has some daylight in it after the sun sets, and that daylight is being referred to in 3637. When that daylight is removed from the night, it results in darkness.
Night - Daylight = Darkness, so
Night = Darkness + Daylightlets paint two circles,one with Green and the other with blue which at one place overlap too ,You want to call the overlaping area as green , and me as blue.
We both would be technically right in our statements, because, "both do contain the either color". But He in his book has given a new name to this overlaping area, which is neither blue, nor green, but is Yellow and hence calls it so.
When he assigns this overlap a new name, He puts an end to this confusion.As Nun has pointed out, how can we determine when exactly the darkness of the night starts and the daylight finishes? The varying moonlight depending on the phases, the light of stars, and whether it is cloudy or not, can introduce varying grades of darkness. Therefore, darkness would be a very imprecise marker. The marker to break fast is very precise. It is at the start of the night which is right after sunset, because isha is part of layl. This issue of layl and nahaar is one of the very few times I find myself agreeing with Nun.
I think , i answered the above earlier, but i suppose you failed to grasp the answer, Ok let me explain;
If we take layal at last light, then the marker is same as explained in 2-187, which is "when you start to disinguish first ray of light from darkness of night."
So in the evening when light retreats/diminish, and darkness starts to take over, and finally when one can "No more" find, or disinguish any ray of the light from darkness, That is the end of overlapping time(isha), and we can say that Layl has started.
And you know, by objecting/finding faults with this marker , You are blaming Him , for His "start of Fajr marker" indirectly,which He has clearly commanded in 2-187, to be used, for starting fast. I hope you understand this.
May God introduce some light in the darkness of your interpretation
Thanks ,I truely appreciate the above comment of yours, handshake " Ameen"
peace
siki
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Peace Siki,
I think you are not reading my posts, where did i say or insist that they dont overlap?
( I wouldnt waste space to recopy from my old posts to show you , that all along i have been saying that the day and night merge / overlap/coil at dawn and isha time. i am sure you can scroll back and find for yourself )You are not understanding that God has assigned "names" to these overlapping periods, which contain both night and day, 'Fajar", and "Isha", in quran. Please make an honest effort to understand this.
I never said nor even remotely think that there are 6 salats.
I think you are not understanding 11-114 properly. This ayaha is explaining or bounding the period for fajr and isha prayer. They are to be completed in the time periods bounded by edges of the day in the near parts of the night.
You are admitting yourself that nahaar/daytime and layl/night overlap. You are right that al-quran calls these times of overlap "fajr" and "isha". The fact remains that they are still parts of layl/night, for example in 11114 we hear that we should establish salat at the near parts of layl/night, and you acknowledge that one of near parts of night is isha.
THEREFORE, BECAUSE ISHA IS PART OF NIGHT, NIGHT STARTS AT SUNSET.
Night has many parts, for example isha, ghassak/darkness, tahajjud, fajr, but that does not mean that each part is not night. According to 1778, sunset to darkness of layl refers to same time period as one of the near parts of night, so sunset onwards is part of night, therefore night starts at sunset.
I think , i answered the above earlier, but i suppose you failed to grasp the answer, Ok let me explain;
If we take layal at last light, then the marker is same as explained in 2-187, which is "when you start to disinguish first ray of light from darkness of night."
So in the evening when light retreats/diminish, and darkness starts to take over, and finally when one can "No more" find, or disinguish any ray of the light from darkness, That is the end of overlapping time(isha), and we can say that Layl has started.
And you know, by objecting/finding faults with this marker , You are blaming Him , for His "start of Fajr marker" indirectly, which He has clearly commanded in 2-187, to be used, for starting fast. I hope you understand this.
The precise time to start fast has been clearly elaborated as when the white thread can be distinguished from the black, but no such terminology has been used for the time to break fast. If night just means darkness, then according to quranic terminology, how will you determine exactly when darkness has started?
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Peace Siki,
You are admitting yourself that nahaar/daytime and layl/night overlap. You are right that al-quran calls these times of overlap "fajr" and "isha". The fact remains that they are still parts of layl/night, for example in 11114 we hear that we should establish salat at the near parts of layl/night, and you acknowledge that one of near parts of night is isha.
THEREFORE, BECAUSE ISHA IS PART OF NIGHT, NIGHT STARTS AT SUNSET.
Night has many parts, for example isha, ghassak/darkness, tahajjud, fajr, but that does not mean that each part is not night. According to 1778, sunset to darkness of layl refers to same time period as one of the near parts of night, so sunset onwards is part of night, therefore night starts at sunset.
The precise time to start fast has been clearly elaborated as when the white thread can be distinguished from the black, but no such terminology has been used for the time to break fast. If night just means darkness, then according to quranic terminology, how will you determine exactly when darkness has started?
Truthseeker, salam
As I said earlier , that there are evidence which could be interpreted either way, but the argument which helped me form my opinion, is the "Ghorubul shams issue", and uptill now i have not come across any evidence which could effectively nullify this point.
I am most definitely keeping my options open , and looking for any new evidence from the Quran to nail this issue. But till then i am 95% sure that it is last light where we should terminate fasting, and am 100% sure that it is not sun set , Because what ever little I know HIM , HE would have definitely used this precise MARKER , had HE meant for us to break fast at Ghorubul shams. Specially when HE has repeatedly used this term/marker in Quran.
peacesiki
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(20130)
One more point to be taken care of is Atraaf AlNahaar - that means The edges of the Day. And every edge got a different name like . Does night also got edges? I found only one i.e., Sahar. Please let me know if you find any more in Day or Night.
I think we have only two "extended" times Before sunrise, extended to the early hours of the day edges of day, i.e before sunrise, sunrise itself and immediately after it.
Same thing with Aanaa'i allail (aanaa' is also plural) before sunset and extended to the hours of night. Before sunset to immediately after sunset is the ishaa'. I think sunset is completely different from lail, albeit merged in it
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Peace Siki,
This is what it boils down to
You have already admitted that "isha" is "part of night" based on 11114. Do you mean to say that "part of night" is not "night"? Isha starts at duluk al-shams (177---> Isha is part of night (11114) ---> Therefore, night starts at duluk al-shams.
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Peace Siki,
This is what it boils down to
You have already admitted that "isha" is "part of night" based on 11114. Do you mean to say that "part of night" is not "night"? Isha starts at duluk al-shams (177---> Isha is part of night (11114) ---> Therefore, night starts at duluk al-shams.
peace
Circular argument,
I say once again , we cannot break fast at sun set, because HE has not used the term "Ghouroub ul shams/ Dalukul sham" here, when HE has uses this term repeatedly in Quran elsewhere.
siki
