SunDown Or Last Sun's Rays Out?

truthseeker11

Peace Siki,

It is not circular. It is a mathematical/logical equation

"Duluk al-shams ila ghassaq al-layl" (from 177 = "zulafan min al-layl" (from 11114)

Therefore, "duluk al-shams ila ghassaq al-layl" is a subset/part of "layl", because it is included in near parts of the night. Before "duluk al-shams" is obviously "nahaar" only.

Therefore, night starts at duluk al-shams.

Using same logic

"Duluk al-shams ila ghassaq al-layl" = "taraf al-nahaar"

Therefore, "ghassaq al-layl" is a subset/part of "nahaar", because it is one of the two edges of the daytime mentioned in 11114. After "ghassaq al-layl" is obviously "layl" only.

Therefore, day ends at ghassaq al-layl.

Deductive reasoning by combining 1778 and 11114 shows that God indeed has given a precise marker for start of layl/night, which is "duluk al-shams".

Ask any mathematics/logic professor about this, and he/she will say the same. Try it )

I have presented the clearest proof that night starts at "duluk al-shams"/rubbing of the sun with the horizon at the time of sunset, and the readers can make up their own minds. In the end only God guides whom He wills. No further comments from me on this issue.

siki

Peace Siki,

It is not circular. It is a mathematical/logical equation

Truth seeker salam

Looks like you do not have any answer to Ghorubul shams issue,

here is another one,

11-81 They said "O Lot, we are your Lord's messengers; they will not be able to harm you, so travel with your family during the cover of the night (layal) and let not any of you look back except for your wife, she will be afflicted with what they will be afflicted. Their appointed time will be the morning. Is the morning not near?"

If these guys tried to leave at, or soon after sun set , as per your definition of the night, Ah you know their demise?

siki

siki

Ask any mathematics/logic professor about this, and he/she will say the same. Try it

Oh , I thought God didn't need the help of Mathematics or logic professor to decipher the time of breaking fast for his creation , specially when , He had Ghorub ul shams created, and available ;D

siki

unknownuser

Peace siki,

here is another one,

11-81 They said "O Lot, we are your Lord's messengers; they will not be able to harm you, so travel with your family during the cover of the night (layal) and let not any of you look back except for your wife, she will be afflicted with what they will be afflicted. Their appointed time will be the morning. Is the morning not near?"

If these guys tried to leave at, or soon after sun set , as per your definition of the night, Ah you know their demise?

Qaloo ya lootu inna rusulu rabbika lan yasiloo ilayka faasri bi-ahlika biqitAAin mina allayli wala yaltafit minkum ahadun illa imraataka innahu museebuha ma asabahum inna mawAAidahumu alssubhu alaysa alssubhu biqareebin
1181 They said "You Lot that we (are) your Lord's messengers, they will never/not reach to you, so move/travel with your family/relation/people with parts/portions from the night, and no one of you turns around except your woman (wife), that it what struck/hit/marked them is striking/hitting/marking her, that their appointment (is) the morning/day break, is not the morning/daybreak with near/close?"

Faasri bi-ahlika biqitAAin mina allayli waittabiAA adbarahum wala yaltafit minkum ahadun waimdoo haythu tu/maroona
1565 So move/travel/depart at night with your family/people with parts/portions from the night and follow their backs/ends; and no one from you turn around, and proceed/complete where/when you are being ordered/commanded.

Which parts/portions of the night?

If nights have parts/portions then obviously travel during the darkest part of the night.

siki

Dear Nun salam

I agree that translation (PM's) is wrong by translating "Biqittaunn" as cover , where as it should be , "A part" , or the "Portion".

But, still it does not say "the dark portion", Biqattaunn ul lail , means to covey , "Any selected part of the nite",

And it was left to the discretion of lot (pbuh)to choose the time, and convey to his peeple accordingly. And he would have been well within his rights to pick up a time/ part/portion, soon after sun set, which was obviously not what God intended.

OK , Not satisfied yet ? Have another one,

Here God commands Moses to do the same , for the same purpose , and this time NO such portion / time /part is mentioned.

Fasiiree baiabdi lailleen, innakum Muttabaoon"

44-23 Allah said, `Take MY servants away by night; for you will surely be pursued.

peace

siki

mmkhan

Salaaman Siki,

Truth seeker salam

Looks like you do not have any answer to Ghorubul shams issue,

here is another one,

11-81 They said "O Lot, we are your Lord's messengers; they will not be able to harm you, so travel with your family during the cover of the night (layal) and let not any of you look back except for your wife, she will be afflicted with what they will be afflicted. Their appointed time will be the morning. Is the morning not near?"

If these guys tried to leave at, or soon after sun set , as per your definition of the night, Ah you know their demise?

siki

Very well quoted. MashaAllah.

May Allah help us understand the correct path.

Regards,
mmKhan

siki

It has been good two weeks that any body has posted any argument in favour of terminating fast at sun set, so should we think that this matter is settled for good? in favour of Lail , not being at sun set , but after when it is relatively Dark?

Any body having any valid argument from the book is still welcome to come up and contest.

peace

siki

truthseeker11

Peace Siki,

It has been good two weeks that any body has posted any argument in favour of terminating fast at sun set, so should we think that this matter is settled for good? in favour of Lail , not being at sun set , but after when it is relatively Dark?

Any body having any valid argument from the book is still welcome to come up and contest.

peace

siki

It has been clearly proven and settled that layl/night starts at "duluk al-shams" according to al-quran. You can, however, continue to believe whatever you wish. There is no compulsion in deen and we will all be accountable for our minds and actions.

Just look at your own quote. "Relatively dark" is one of the vaguest terms I have heard. I challenge you to define precisely what "relatively dark" is according to al-quran. Al-quran is precise and "duluk al-shams" as the marker for start of night is very precise. Cross referencing 11114 with 1778 clearly proves that layl/night starts at duluk al-shams. It is a no brainer. No further comments from me on this issue. You can have the last word but that does not mean you are correct. You are usually sharp but I am disappointed with you on this issue. (

anna

Peace Siki,

It has been clearly proven and settled that night/layl starts at "duluk al-shams" according to al-quran. You can, however continue to believe whatever you wish. There is no compulsion in religion and we will all be accountable for our minds and actions.

salam,
i ususally break my fast about 15-20 minutes after sunset when there is no more redness in the sky, what do you think

truthseeker11

Peace Anna,

salam,
i ususally break my fast about 15-20 minutes after sunset when there is no more redness in the sky, what do you think

There is no compulsion in deen and you can do whatever you wish. If you want to follow al-quran, however, it is crystal clear that layl/night starts at "duluk al-shams"/setting of the sun. Cross reference 11114 and 1778 and use your God given mind/logic. Also please go through the entire thread for further proofs. May God guide us to the truth.

anna

Peace Anna,

There is no compulsion in deen and you can do whatever you wish. If you want to follow al-quran, however, it is crystal clear that layl/night starts at "duluk al-shams"/setting of the sun. Cross reference 11114 and 1778 and use your God given mind/logic. Also please go through the entire thread for further proofs. May God guide us to the truth.

salam,
thank you i know there is no complusion in deen, but you are saying that "duluk lshamis" is the setting of the sun, so if layl begins at that time why did god not say this in the aya concering fasting, why did he say till night why did he not say til duluk lshamis,
and in the aya 1778 he is saying praying from sunset into the night, not into the middle or end but beginning of the night there fore they are 2 separate times,

truthseeker11

Peace Anna,

salam,
thank you i know there is no complusion in deen, but you are saying that "duluk lshamis" is the setting of the sun, so if layl begins at that time why did god not say this in the aya concering fasting, why did he say till night why did he not say til duluk lshamis,
and in the aya 1778 he is saying praying from sunset into the night, not into the middle or end but beginning of the night there fore they are 2 separate times,

This has already been discussed before in this thread. Please don't twist God's words. 1778 does not ask us to uphold salat from sunset to night but from sunset to DARKNESS of the night. layl/night starts from duluk al-shams. If night starts from darkness then saying "darkness of the night" would be redundant. It would be just as saying "darkness of the darkness".

Also, numerous verses mention about merging of layl/night and nahaar/daytime. If night only starts at darkness, then where does the merging occur? From sunset to darkness of night is part of both nahaar and layl and is where one of the merging occurs. The other merging is from dawn to sunrise. So night/layl is from sunset to sunrise. The matter is very clear. I will not make any further comments. Please go through this entire thread.

siki

Truthseeker, salam

We have thrashed all old logics many a times over, and over, so there is no use redoing it but, brother, for God's definition of night (lail) do you have any answer to the following new find from Quran?

Fasiiree baiabdi lailleen, innakum Muttabaoon"

44-23 Allah said, `Take MY servants away by night; for you will surely be pursued.

siki

truthseeker11

Peace Siki,

That has nothing to do with defining the night time. Night/layl can refer to any part of night, but UNTIL NIGHT (2187) can only refer to start of night which is duluk al-shams. This is it. I WILL NOT MAKE ANY FURTHER COMMENTS. So silence on my part cannot be construed as you being correct. It is useless discussing with you any further.

siki

Peace Siki,

That has nothing to do with defining the night time. Night/layl can refer to any part of night, but UNTIL NIGHT (2187) can only refer to start of night which is duluk al-shams. This is it. I WILL NOT MAKE ANY FURTHER COMMENTS. So silence on my part cannot be construed as you being correct. It is useless discussing with you any further.

OK,

Anyone siding with Truthseeker?

siki

Hope

salam everybody

I think the begining of the night/layl is when a star appears in the sky, this is according to the verse
(676 ) which link the night to the star

So i think the star is the sign for the begining of the night.
also, in the quraan the word night is mostely associted with the word darkness , so it is the darkness of the night which make the star be apparant to us.

I myself break the fasting when i see the star.
This is as far as i understand, which to read ur comments?

Wakas

OK,

Anyone siding with Truthseeker?

siki

For the record, I agree with truthseeker.

It is as clear as day. ;D

siki

For the record, I agree with truthseeker.

It is as clear as day. ;D

Is it because you don't wana leave him lonely out there? ;D

or

Oh , I see, can,t wait, to delay eat for 20 odd minutes.

siki

siki

Wakas,

Oh, yes Now I get it, '( it is not 20 minutes, wow It is going to be more than one hour in your location.

hmm a tough contest between logic and hunger indeed, isn't it?

siki

afridi220

salam everybody

I think the begining of the night/layl is when a star appears in the sky, this is according to the verse
(676 ) which link the night to the star

So i think the star is the sign for the begining of the night.
also, in the quraan the word night is mostely associted with the word darkness , so it is the darkness of the night which make the star be apparant to us.

I myself break the fasting when i see the star.
This is as far as i understand, which to read ur comments?

I hope you are not promoting Karwa Chauth. ;D